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[Kruw]

Pmalek and WIND_FURY, your choice to lure people into depositing their coins into a "Mixing Site" has led to their data being turned over to the government

Using a mixer isn't illegal. Mixing coins isn't illegal. Advertising a mixer isn't illegal. Hacking, scamming, or stealing money from people is illegal. Trying to hide the traces and history of illegally obtained coins isn't allowed, regardless if it's with a mixer, coinjoining, or any other techniques. Even if you get paid for services you provided with illegally obtained funds, it isn't your fault, unless you knew about it and agreed to receive such coins. You can literally have money in your pocket right now that has the worst kind of history you can imagine.

Regarding the data. Using mixers through clearnet sites was never recommended. That should always be directed through TOR.
Like I said, the use of a mixer isn't illegal. The only people who need to be worried are those who mixed coins that originate from hacks or other illegal sources.  

Using Tor doesn't matter when using a mixing site because they have complete knowledge over which withdrawal originated from each deposit.  I see you haven't hesitated at all to start luring people into the exact same trap after the previous one you lured people into turned over data to the government:

Application

Forum rank: Legendary
 1st choice of interested payroll: Legendary  
 2nd choice of interested payroll: None
 Merit earned in the last 120 days: 429
 Bech32 address: Will be added if accepted

[1714651336]

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[1714651336]

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[so98nn]

@Kruw, I advise you to look at this topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5446635.msg63029331#msg63029331

The regulators are seeking to make all forms of cryptocurrency anonymization illegal (whether that be a mixer or a coinjoin or even whole coins like Monero).

What the heck? Is it for real. How come mixers will stay in business if they are anyway going to make everything anonymous into non anonymous. Lolz. In fact this can have proportionate effects on Bitcoin ecosystem too. The whole point of having crypto currency is to be owner of your assets/money, transact without any paper trail and simply be modest about your identity. I am not sure if it is mixer services that are aggrevating the regulators to reform the rules and regulations OR is it seeding activity that is being built under the name of terrorist fundings?

Pmalek and WIND_FURY, your choice to lure people into depositing their coins into a "Mixing Site" has led to their data being turned over to the government

Using a mixer isn't illegal. Mixing coins isn't illegal. Advertising a mixer isn't illegal. Hacking, scamming, or stealing money from people is illegal. Trying to hide the traces and history of illegally obtained coins isn't allowed, regardless if it's with a mixer, coinjoining, or any other techniques. Even if you get paid for services you provided with illegally obtained funds, it isn't your fault, unless you knew about it and agreed to receive such coins. You can literally have money in your pocket right now that has the worst kind of history you can imagine.

Regarding the data. Using mixers through clearnet sites was never recommended. That should always be directed through TOR.
Like I said, the use of a mixer isn't illegal. The only people who need to be worried are those who mixed coins that originate from hacks or other illegal sources.   

Let us just hope that those who are making rules and regulations understand our way of defining what is illegal and what legal. In the upcoming days we might have rules made out of dictionary. How much time it will take them to define mixing coins is illegal? Under the name of money laundering they might just close down all of them OR might start asking for KYC. Lolz. That crush the whole purpose of using those services.

[Pmalek]

Let us just hope that those who are making rules and regulations understand our way of defining what is illegal and what legal.

Even the Netherlands authorities that coordinated with other agencies to take down Sinbad stated that "using a mixer isn't necessarily illegal." Of course it isn't. If mixing becomes illegal, then all services offering ways to hide the history of your coins become illegal, whether they have partners in blockchain analysis companies or not. Wanting privacy is a basic human right that doesn't make you a criminal. But if you already are a criminal, you remain one with or without mixers.     

[Kruw]

Pmalek, don't you have a LOT of apologies to make?  You spent months relentlessly attacking open source trustless Bitcoin privacy software while promoting a trusted custodian.  Now that trusted custodian has turned over its users' data to the government.

In the future, whenever someone mentions anything negative about Wasabi, your job is to hit them with the we are open-source and baaam, that will shut them up. If they are advertising a mixer, you also call them a thief to really get your point across.  

Oh boy, now I am going to hear about how Wasabi is open-source again.  

To be fair, we don't hear it as often as we are open-source, mixers are a scam, or the many variants of look at how flawed these other implementations are.

Now you can tell me how mixing services steal coins and sell customer data. I think it's the perfect opportunity to play that card.

If you do, their forum representative will tell you the software is open-source and that they make donations to the Human Rights Foundation and the TOR project. Seeing as you are wearing the signature of a mixing service, they will throw in a few sentences about you advertising a scam and/or that you are a thief or scammer yourself.

Play the we are open-source card or everyone can run their own coordinator card, again because the software is open-source. Despite you knowing that's not the issue, you insist on playing those cards. No one is falling for your bluffs. Attacks on centralized mixing services incoming

You can stick your we are open-source and thus don't do anything unethical propaganda where the sun doesn't shine.

Kruw:
Thanks for using Wasabi and contacting us! We are glad to help you.
Did you know that BlackHatCoiner and o_e_l_e_o are to blame because they are openly advertising centralized mixing services? Amazing, right? They also did it before and will probably do it again. They are trying to trick you into handling your money over to these centralized services. We at Wasabi would never do that. Stay with us, we have amazing surprises for our users. Wasabi - the ultimate Bitcoin privacy tool.  

Of course, there's nothing you can do now to undo the data leak that already happened, that damage is permanent. But, as a sign of good faith, you should donate all the money you got from partnering with Sinbad to an open source privacy project like Tor in order to prove you are not intentionally complicit in profiting off of these data collecting schemes.

[PrivacyG]

You know it is bad when Kruw is heavily accusing and throwing darts even at members like Wind_FURY who are 50 percent with us Privacy members and 50 percent with an understanding and semi support for what Wasabi has done.

-----

It feels a lot like we are re living the first years of Bitcoin.  Back when Silk Road was taken out.  It is fascinating and scary at the same time.

How much time it will take them to define mixing coins is illegal? Under the name of money laundering they might just close down all of them OR might start asking for KYC. Lolz. That crush the whole purpose of using those services.

They could ban Coin Joining too.  If that is the case then the only option remaining is using Monero as an underground Currency.  If they start punishing the people who USE Mixers and Coin Join then it is over.  What do you do, continue using a Public Ledger while trying to do against what the Government said?  The only law I would HAPPILY break is a law against Privacy.  But then I have to find a way out and it will not be a combination of Public Ledgers and Mixers or Coin Joins.

For now all they are doing is seizing the Services they can seize.  Is it the beginning of a more harsh future?  Maybe.  Particularly considering Chip Mixer has been hit with missiles too.  But maybe it is just a coincidence and one more time they try to make examples out of people who try to gain Privacy.

Remember what Three Letter Agencies said a while ago?  They were looking for a way to break Coin Joins and Monero.  Both are on their to-hit list.

Anyway.  Who knows.  Maybe it was just a honey pot.

-----

Pmalek, don't you have a LOT of apologies to make?  You spent months relentlessly attacking open source trustless Bitcoin privacy software while promoting a trusted custodian.  Now that trusted custodian has turned over its users' data to the government.

I wonder why you are not cheering about the news?  Your partner must have celebrated the take down!  Is this not helping the case of SBF you mentioned before?  Maybe your partner now finds a way to block more B S Tainted Coins!

as a sign of good faith, you should donate all the money you got from partnering with Sinbad to an open source privacy project like Tor in order to prove you are not intentionally complicit in profiting off of these data collecting schemes.

As a sign of good faith, will you donate all the money you got from every body prior to partnering with Blockchain Analysis to an Open Source Privacy project like Tor to prove you are not intentionally complicit in profiting off these data collecting companies?

[arabspaceship123]

If mixing becomes illegal it's going to make privacy options disappear. Mixers get used every day because ppl want to keep somethings private but it doesn't mean they're trying to hide illegal trades from govts. I've replied today to a post about Monero being dropped from centralised exchanges. If this's how it's going ppl won't have privacy.

Let us just hope that those who are making rules and regulations understand our way of defining what is illegal and what legal.

Even the Netherlands authorities that coordinated with other agencies to take down Sinbad stated that "using a mixer isn't necessarily illegal." Of course it isn't. If mixing becomes illegal, then all services offering ways to hide the history of your coins become illegal, whether they have partners in blockchain analysis companies or not. Wanting privacy is a basic human right that doesn't make you a criminal. But if you already are a criminal, you remain one with or without mixers.     

[NotATether]

You know it is bad when Kruw is heavily accusing and throwing darts even at members like Wind_FURY who are 50 percent with us Privacy members and 50 percent with an understanding and semi support for what Wasabi has done.

Ironically since zkSNACKs coordinator has not implemented blacklisting yet, it could still get seized, or more likely forced to shut down, if hackers turn their attention to it next.

How much time it will take them to define mixing coins is illegal? Under the name of money laundering they might just close down all of them OR might start asking for KYC. Lolz. That crush the whole purpose of using those services.

They could ban Coin Joining too.
~

They're already trying to. The entire crypto industry is in their cross-hairs now, whether you support Wasabi or mixers.

edit: now that mixers are about to be banned, we can expect to see an eminent celebration by Kruw.

[arabspaceship123]

If zkSNACKs get seized they'll have a good defence. They'll tell American govt regulators they're working with blockchain analysis companies to reduce frauds. Isn't it going to be ironic if they're forced to close Wasabi Wallet coinjoin services after they've taken steps to protect themselves by analysing who's coins were naughty?

Ironically since zkSNACKs coordinator has not implemented blacklisting yet, it could still get seized, or more likely forced to shut down, if hackers turn their attention to it next.

[Wind_FURY]

Pmalek and WIND_FURY, your choice to lure people into depositing their coins into a "Mixing Site" has led to their data being turned over to the government:

To all criminal users of former mixer Sinbad.io,
This is a collective warning issued by the Dutch Investigation Service for Financial and Tax Crime (FIOD) and the Dutch Public Prosecution Office.
Our investigation has uncovered illicit activities on this mixer platform and the logs obtained have compromised the anonymity of numerous users.
We urge all criminal users and admins of mixers to cease all unlawful actions immediately. Persistent engagement will lead to severe legal consequences. We are resolute in pursuing and prosecuting all involved in criminal activities.
Your anonymity is no longer assured. Law enforcement actions are imminent.
With Vigilance,
Dutch Investigation Service for Financial and Tax Crime (FIOD) and the Dutch Public Prosecution Office

If only someone had warned everyone about mixing sites collecting your data! 

I "lured" people into using a mixer? You're gaslighting everyone now? Ser, in just another post you told me that I discouraged ordinary users from mixing their coins because of the risk that they could be considered "tainted". Why are you doing that? You're behaving like another user I know in the forum, who's a constant gaslighter.

Read my posts about Wasabi and zkSNACKS' decision to hire the services of blockchain analysis companies. I believe I gave the more objective posts compared to most of the people who posted in the topic. Tell me if you think I'm wrong, but don't gaslight people.

[Kruw]

I "lured" people into using a mixer?

Yes, you and Pmalek promoted Sinbad.  Now Sinbad has turned over their users' data to the government.

Bitcointalk.org aims to allow about as much freedom as is reasonably possible. But this is not a darknet forum, and with mixers looking "grayer and grayer", it's no longer reasonably possible to allow linking to mixers. Even though "a cryptocurrency mixing service is not necessarily illegal," a clear pattern has emerged where mixers pop up, last for a little while, and then get taken down by law enforcement once they get too big. Allowing mixers to be posted on bitcointalk.org before they seemingly-inevitably get declared illegal and seized is not sustainable. Therefore, linking to mixers will no longer be allowed, just the same as linking to darknet sites is already not allowed.

To avoid disruption, there will be a grace period: Nothing will change until Jan 1, 2024.

Starting Jan 1, 2024:
 - Existing mixer announcement topics (and a few topics that have no value without mixer-links) will be locked and archived.
 - Going forward, directing people to mixers in new posts/edits will be totally disallowed, and doing so could lead to a ban. Many mixer URLs will be wordfiltered-out, and if you bypass the wordfilter, then that'll definitely be ban-worthy.
 - Any remaining mixer signatures (etc.) may be deleted. Anyone persisting in advertising mixers will be banned.
 - In most cases, old posts will not be deleted. Nobody should be banned for old posts.

You do not need to go edit/delete your past posts. Links will be automatically wordfiltered-out as of Jan 1, or in a few cases mods will archive or delete posts, but you will not be banned for old mixer-related posts.

It will continue to be OK to discuss mixers in a general sort of way. Just don't direct people to mixers: don't link to a mixer, don't link to a directory with links to mixers, don't tell people to "Google ASDFmixer", don't link to a mixer's telegram, etc.

Definition of a mixer

For clarity, here is a detailed definition of what we mean by a "mixer". Most people know intuitively what a mixer is and don't have to read this.

Something is considered a mixer if it meets all of these requirements:
 1. It has a feature advertised for taking property, improving its privacy somehow, and then returning roughly the same type of property.
     a. Even though you can sometimes use non-mixers to mix coins by depositing and then withdrawing, this doesn't make it a mixer because this is an incidental use of the service; the service isn't advertised as privacy-enhancing.
     b. If a site is not primarily a mixer but has a mixer function, such as a mixer function on a gambling website, then the whole site is considered a mixer.
     c. If the site takes coins, gives you a possibly-transferrable IOU, and will convert this IOU back into mixed coins much later, then the temporary conversion into a different type of property does not prevent it from being considered a mixer.
     d. If the site internally converts your deposit into other things as part of its mixing, but ultimately the point of the product is to get your original type of property back, then that's a mixer, not an exchanger.
 2. It is possible for the mixer to steal property passing through it. Assume that the sender does everything as correctly as possible. Also assume that no miners/verifiers on the base-layer cryptocurrency are evil. But assume that every other actor involved is evil (everyone able to vote in a DAO, every coordination server, every counterparty, every member of a multisig, etc.). Ignore short-term software bugs which are expected to be quickly fixed.
 3. The service does not collect KYC-type info from all users.

Examples of things that are not banned mixers include exchangers (unless they have a mixing function), CoinJoin-supporting non-custodial wallets, and Monero.

Thankfully, this sort of trap will no longer be allowed on Bitcointalk next month.  Goodbye data collection, goodbye custody, hello coinjoin!