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[NotATether]

This is why there's simply no point in responding to any of the "critics" in this thread that advertise mixing services in their signatures: They are not critical of Wasabi because they think it is bad or doesn't work, they are critical of Wasabi because their goal is to scam people out of their Bitcoins.  Since coinjoins are non custodial and Wasabi never reveals any data to any third parties, these scammers will tell any lie necessary to get people to give up control of their Bitcoin and make their data vulnerable to government seizure.

Intelligence works both ways.

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[Kruw]

Intelligence works both ways.

What do you mean?

[BlackHatCoiner]

They are not critical of Wasabi because they think it is bad or doesn't work, they are critical of Wasabi because their goal is to scam people out of their Bitcoins.

Yes, Kruw. We want to scam other people's coins. That's exactly what we're doing in here.. This is our ultimate goal. Lol. 

Since coinjoins are non custodial and Wasabi never reveals any data to any third parties, these scammers will tell any lie necessary about Wasabi in order to get people to give up control of their Bitcoin and make their data vulnerable to government seizure by using their "mixing service" instead.

We've, ourselves, said that the software reveals no such thing, we're just criticizing the part where you're lying about fungibility and funding mass surveillance firm. You can reuse that strawman as many times as you want, but the fact remains the same.

By the way, these "scammers" will let mix coins that were denied service by the ethic guidelines of zkSNACKs' coordinator, so we're at least superior on the fungibility part.

[Kruw]

They are not critical of Wasabi because they think it is bad or doesn't work, they are critical of Wasabi because their goal is to scam people out of their Bitcoins.

Yes, Kruw. We want to scam other people's coins. That's exactly what we're doing in here.. This is our ultimate goal. Lol.  

...and all they have in response to all the examples of mixers turning over user funds and data to governments is... sarcasm?  

I am sure this does sound little fishy because if authorities had any problems then they would have targeted other big mixers in existence however they are not because it simply straight business.

The government targeted Chipmixer, seizing user funds and data:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-investigation-leads-takedown-darknet-cryptocurrency-mixer-processed-over-3

The government targeted Alphabay, seizing user funds and data:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/alphabay-largest-online-dark-market-shut-down

The government targeted Bestmixer, seizing user funds and data:

https://www.europol.europa.eu/media-press/newsroom/news/multi-million-euro-cryptocurrency-laundering-service-bestmixerio-taken-down

This is why there's simply no point in responding to any of the "critics" in this thread that advertise mixing services in their signatures: They are not critical of Wasabi because they think it is bad or doesn't work, they are critical of Wasabi because their goal is to scam people out of their Bitcoins.  Since coinjoins are non custodial and Wasabi never reveals any data to any third parties, these scammers will tell any lie necessary about Wasabi in order to get people to give up control of their Bitcoin and make their data vulnerable to government seizure by using their "mixing service" instead.

Wasabi's coinjoins are non custodial, no trust is ever required, and no data is ever revealed to anyone including the coinjoin coordinator.  Do not trust these people advertising "mixers" with your money!!!

[BlackHatCoiner]

...and all they have in response to all the examples of mixers turning over user funds and data to governments is... sarcasm?  

The response to the reuse of the strawman argument is one of sarcasm. In the case of the instances where mixers are declined, the response is that you are informed beforehand that they are neither trustless nor non-custodial. It also requires a minimal level of intelligence to understand that they are not permanent since they are centralized in nature.

[Kruw]

The response to the reuse of the strawman argument is one of sarcasm. In the case of the instances where mixers are declined, the response is that you are informed beforehand that they are neither trustless nor non-custodial. It also requires a minimal level of intelligence to understand that they are not permanent since they are centralized in nature.

What do you mean "where mixers are declined"?

[BlackHatCoiner]

What do you mean "where mixers are declined"?

Confiscated, shut down etc.

[Kruw]

Confiscated, shut down etc.

So how is telling the victims of who had their funds confiscated and data leaked to the government that "Mixers are not trustless nor non-custodial" helpful once they've already lost everything?...

This is why you use Wasabi's coinjoins for privacy instead:  By design, you never have to worry about losing your coins or your data because you are always in full control of both.  No one else is trusted, including coinjoin coordinators.

[BlackHatCoiner]

So how is telling the victims of who had their funds confiscated and data leaked to the government that "Mixers are not trustless nor non-custodial" helpful once they've already lost everything?...

Awful. But that's the price you have to pay when you trust your coins to some stranger. You may never get them back. As for data leaks, I have never used a mixer that was known to be a government honeypot, neither do I know of any such.

Wanna tell us how it is to tell someone he isn't worthy of having his privacy protected, while at the same time pretending to be the ultimate solution to Bitcoin's fungibility?

[Kruw]

Awful. But that's the price you have to pay when you trust your coins to some stranger.  You may never get them back.

WRONG!  You do not have to pay that price. YOU NEVER HAVE TO TRUST YOUR COINS WITH ANYONE TO GAIN PRIVACY BECAUSE COINJOINS ARE NON CUSTODIAL!

As for data leaks, I have never used a mixer that was known to be a government honeypot, neither do I know of any such.

Hello:

I am sure this does sound little fishy because if authorities had any problems then they would have targeted other big mixers in existence however they are not because it simply straight business.

The government targeted Chipmixer, seizing user funds and data:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-investigation-leads-takedown-darknet-cryptocurrency-mixer-processed-over-3

The government targeted Alphabay, seizing user funds and data:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/alphabay-largest-online-dark-market-shut-down

The government targeted Bestmixer, seizing user funds and data:

https://www.europol.europa.eu/media-press/newsroom/news/multi-million-euro-cryptocurrency-laundering-service-bestmixerio-taken-down

This is why there's simply no point in responding to any of the "critics" in this thread that advertise mixing services in their signatures: They are not critical of Wasabi because they think it is bad or doesn't work, they are critical of Wasabi because their goal is to scam people out of their Bitcoins.  Since coinjoins are non custodial and Wasabi never reveals any data to any third parties, these scammers will tell any lie necessary about Wasabi in order to get people to give up control of their Bitcoin and make their data vulnerable to government seizure by using their "mixing service" instead.

[BlackHatCoiner]

WRONG!  You do not have to pay that price. YOU NEVER HAVE TO TRUST YOUR COINS WITH ANYONE TO GAIN PRIVACY BECAUSE COINJOINS ARE NON CUSTODIAL![/b]

You do have to pay that price if you don't want to do coinjoins but you want to have your coins mixed, and there are at least two reasons you might want that; mixing cost and effectiveness. You also have to pay that price if the coinjoin company that provides sufficient liquidity thinks you're naughty, which hasn't happened with mixers I've used to use so far.

Hello

There is no evidence of ChipMixer being a honeypot. The Justice department page just says they've taken it down. No data leaks as far as we can tell.

[Kruw]

You do have to pay that price if you don't want to do coinjoins but you want to have your coins mixed, and there are at least two reasons you might want that; mixing cost and effectiveness.

You are wrong again:

1.  The mixing service you advertise charges more than zkSNACKs does for coinjoining.
2.  Mixing services are not effective since they do not provide privacy to their users, they collect the data of their users and turn it over to the government.  Coinjoin transactions are actually effective because they give you total privacy without revealing your transaction data to anyone.

You also have to pay that price if the coinjoin company that provides sufficient liquidity thinks you're naughty, which hasn't happened with mixers I've used to use so far.

You are wrong again.  There is never any risk to the funds or data of users that coinjoin with Wasabi. MixTum can confiscate your funds and turn over your data to the government when you trust them with your "naughty" coins:

2.1. Privacy Policy

Please refer to our Privacy Policy to get an understanding of our confidentiality obligations. You consent to the collection and use of information as described in the Privacy Policy.

2.2 Suspension or termination of services

[banned mixer] reserves the right to suspend or terminate access to services at any time at its own discretion, with or without reasons, with or without notification assuming no responsibility whatsoever.

For example, services may be suspended or terminated due to the following reasons:

    an actual or suspected violation of these Terms and Conditions;
    use of the service in such a manner that is conducive to the legal liability of [banned mixer] or Service malfunction;
    planned or unplanned maintenance, etc.

2.3 Unacceptable use

You agree that you personally will not commit, encourage or support the committal of:

    use of any unauthorized means to access the [banned mixer] service or use of any automated process or service (for example, spider, crawler or periodic caching of information stored or generated by [banned mixer]) except for the functions described in our API, as well as distribution of instructions, software or tools with this aim in view;
    modification, change, distortion or any other interference in work of the [banned mixer] service;
    disturbing or interference in operation of servers or networks used by [banned mixer] to deliver the Services;
    disabling, overload or degradation of [banned mixer] performance (or any other network connected to the service);
    use of the [banned mixer] service or website for any other purposes other than those specifically provided by these Terms and Privacy Policy;
    any illegal or fraudulent activity, as well as use of this Service in order to legalize illegal income, financing of terrorism, participation in schemes of phishing, forgery or other such falsification or manipulation;
    unauthorized spamming, pyramid schemes or any other activity duplicating unwanted messages should they be commercially oriented or of other nature.

2.4 Service updates

At any time and at its absolute discretion [banned mixer] can carry out unscheduled works related to the service modification, update and enhancement. We are liable to add or remove functions and cease activities of the service and website.
2.5 License and restrictions

[banned mixer] provides you with a personal nontransferable nonexclusive license to use the Service as it is stipulated for you by [banned mixer]. This license is provided under conditions and restricted to the provisions, stipulations and constraints stated in these Terms. Therewith, such license is intended for personal, noncommercial use. You may not copy, modify, create a derivative work of, decompile or otherwise attempt to extract the source code of the service or any part thereof, exclusive of data permitted by law, or expressly allowed by the [banned mixer] platform (use of templates, API, etc.). You may not reassign (or grant a sublicense of) your rights to use the service, or otherwise transfer any part of your rights in accordance with these Terms. These Rules do not provide you with any license or permission to copy, distribute, change or otherwise use any applications programming interface despite any provisions to the contrary. No property rights or ownership rights related to the Service are not granted to you according to these Terms. [banned mixer] reserves all rights that have not been expressly granted.

There is no evidence of ChipMixer being a honeypot. The Justice department page just says they've taken it down. No data leaks as far as we can tell.

You are wrong again:

https://www.europol.europa.eu/media-press/newsroom/news/one-of-darkwebs-largest-cryptocurrency-laundromats-washed-out

On 15 March, national authorities took down the infrastructure of the platform for its alleged involvement in money laundering activities and seized four servers, about 1909.4 Bitcoins in 55 transactions (approx. EUR 44.2 million) and 7 TB of data.

[BlackHatCoiner]

1.  The mixing service you advertise charges more than zkSNACKs does for coinjoining.

For this specific service, I don't know, as I haven't tried it yet. The past two services that I've used, ChipMixer and Whirlwind, charged me nothing.

2.  Mixing services are not effective since they do not provide privacy to their users, they collect the data of their users and turn it over to the government.

You don't have the evidence to support that claim for neither ChipMixer, nor for Whirlwind. You just make assumptions.

Coinjoin transactions are actually effective because they give you total privacy without revealing your transaction data to anyone.

They do provide privacy, but not as much as with the methods that involve absence of transaction connection. ChipMixer was giving you chips that were generated before you deposit, and contained no connection with your deposit. That was better than with coinjoin.

You are wrong again:

And yet, nobody knows what this 7 TB is all about. As far as we can tell, they got access to chips, but that's all we know.

[Kruw]

Coinjoin transactions are actually effective because they give you total privacy without revealing your transaction data to anyone.

They do provide privacy, but not as much as with the methods that involve absence of transaction connection. ChipMixer was giving you chips that were generated before you deposit, and contained no connection with your deposit. That was better than with coinjoin.

You are lying.  You forfeit your privacy every time you deposit to and withdraw from the mixing honeypot.  This is the opposite of coinjoins, which never reveal your data to any third parties who will turn it over to the government.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Forfeiting the privacy in a third party is exactly what privacy stands for; selectively revealing your activity to the world. I don't care if I reveal my activity to some mixer, as long as I keep it private from the people I exchange bitcoin for, and from those that I spend it on.

Sure, you have the uncertainty that the mixer can sell you out, and that's basically the worst disadvantage of using such a service. That's why I'm in favor of decentralized, non-custodial options like JoinMarket, but they tend to be less effective and more expensive to use.

I haven't ever tried converting bitcoin to XMR and then back to bitcoin. Has anyone any thoughts on that?

[Kruw]

Forfeiting the privacy in a third party is exactly what privacy stands for; selectively revealing your activity to the world. I don't care if I reveal my activity to some mixer, as long as I keep it private from the people I exchange bitcoin for, and from those that I spend it on.

If all you care about is keeping your Bitcoin private from the people you spend it with (even if you forfeit control of your money and data) then why don't you use a Bitcoin exchange instead of a mixer?  You would get even more ""privacy"" since the user base of an exchange is larger, granting a larger anonymity set.

[BlackHatCoiner]

If all you care about is keeping your Bitcoin private from the people you spend it with (even if you forfeit control of your money and data) then why don't you use a Bitcoin exchange instead of a mixer?

Because, almost every exchange I've known cooperates with blockchain analysis firms, and tries to de-anonymize every activity related to you. But, using a decentralized exchange (like Bisq) to do BTC <-> XMR swap may not be a bad idea.

The tl;dr is that it's a lot less effective and more expensive.

[Wind_FURY]

If all you care about is keeping your Bitcoin private from the people you spend it with (even if you forfeit control of your money and data) then why don't you use a Bitcoin exchange instead of a mixer?

Because, almost every exchange I've known cooperates with blockchain analysis firms, and tries to de-anonymize every activity related to you. But, using a decentralized exchange (like Bisq) to do BTC <-> XMR swap may not be a bad idea.

The tl;dr is that it's a lot less effective and more expensive.

Or Samourai Whirlpool, and soon, CoinJoin Splicing using the Lightning Network which could probably be more private than Monero if it reaches a larger anonymity set.

Plus instead of debating again and again that goes nowhere, why not open a topic/guide that compares different CoinJoin wallets and illustrate the pros and cons of each? That would be a more constructive solution, no?

[pooya87]

There is no evidence of ChipMixer being a honeypot. The Justice department page just says they've taken it down. No data leaks as far as we can tell.

You are wrong again:

https://www.europol.europa.eu/media-press/newsroom/news/one-of-darkwebs-largest-cryptocurrency-laundromats-washed-out

On 15 March, national authorities took down the infrastructure of the platform for its alleged involvement in money laundering activities and seized four servers, about 1909.4 Bitcoins in 55 transactions (approx. EUR 44.2 million) and 7 TB of data.

The entire bitcoin blockchain storing all bitcoin transactions that have ever taken place is barely half a TB, how can database of a mixer that stores a tiny fraction of that plus any possible additional data (like keys, chips, IPs, etc which are all tiny data) be 14 times bigger than the entire blockchain?!

[arabspaceship123]

It's part of a large conversation so I won't post about every thing else but you've said MixTum can confiscate your funds and turn over your data to the government when you trust them with your "naughty" coins

You've shared their privacy policy. I've read it doesn't say any thing about MixTum confiscating your funds or turning over your data to the government. Where's their policy saying MixTum can confiscate your funds and turn over your data to the government when you trust them with your "naughty" coins because it isn't saying it or I didn't find it.

MixTum can confiscate your funds and turn over your data to the government when you trust them with your "naughty" coins:

2.1. Privacy Policy

Please refer to our Privacy Policy to get an understanding of our confidentiality obligations. You consent to the collection and use of information as described in the Privacy Policy.

2.2 Suspension or termination of services

[banned mixer] reserves the right to suspend or terminate access to services at any time at its own discretion, with or without reasons, with or without notification assuming no responsibility whatsoever.

For example, services may be suspended or terminated due to the following reasons:

    an actual or suspected violation of these Terms and Conditions;
    use of the service in such a manner that is conducive to the legal liability of [banned mixer] or Service malfunction;
    planned or unplanned maintenance, etc.

2.3 Unacceptable use

You agree that you personally will not commit, encourage or support the committal of:

    use of any unauthorized means to access the [banned mixer] service or use of any automated process or service (for example, spider, crawler or periodic caching of information stored or generated by [banned mixer]) except for the functions described in our API, as well as distribution of instructions, software or tools with this aim in view;
    modification, change, distortion or any other interference in work of the [banned mixer] service;
    disturbing or interference in operation of servers or networks used by [banned mixer] to deliver the Services;
    disabling, overload or degradation of [banned mixer] performance (or any other network connected to the service);
    use of the [banned mixer] service or website for any other purposes other than those specifically provided by these Terms and Privacy Policy;
    any illegal or fraudulent activity, as well as use of this Service in order to legalize illegal income, financing of terrorism, participation in schemes of phishing, forgery or other such falsification or manipulation;
    unauthorized spamming, pyramid schemes or any other activity duplicating unwanted messages should they be commercially oriented or of other nature.

2.4 Service updates

At any time and at its absolute discretion [banned mixer] can carry out unscheduled works related to the service modification, update and enhancement. We are liable to add or remove functions and cease activities of the service and website.
2.5 License and restrictions

[banned mixer] provides you with a personal nontransferable nonexclusive license to use the Service as it is stipulated for you by [banned mixer]. This license is provided under conditions and restricted to the provisions, stipulations and constraints stated in these Terms. Therewith, such license is intended for personal, noncommercial use. You may not copy, modify, create a derivative work of, decompile or otherwise attempt to extract the source code of the service or any part thereof, exclusive of data permitted by law, or expressly allowed by the [banned mixer] platform (use of templates, API, etc.). You may not reassign (or grant a sublicense of) your rights to use the service, or otherwise transfer any part of your rights in accordance with these Terms. These Rules do not provide you with any license or permission to copy, distribute, change or otherwise use any applications programming interface despite any provisions to the contrary. No property rights or ownership rights related to the Service are not granted to you according to these Terms. [banned mixer] reserves all rights that have not been expressly granted.