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[Kruw]

Which is why we need to speak out strongly against any entity which promotes the use of taint, such as Wasabi, and warn everyone to stay well away from ever using their products.

Wasabi is open source privacy software, it doesn't "promote the use of taint". 

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[PrivacyG]

OK, let me ask you something. Is there a way for blockchain analysis companies to know if a transaction went to, or came from a mixer/CoinJoin?

I think almost any body can distinguish between what is a normal versus a Coin Join Transaction and separate the two with almost no prior research.  Mixed Coins, I do not think they are as easy to distinguish from normal Transactions unless BA finds they come from sources such as Wallets of the Mixing companies.

But that's precisely my point. It could build a separation between "tainted" Bitcoin and "clean" Bitcoin, and that could make people value them dfferently. Currently we're not in a "taint-aware" world, but the shower-thought - "What if wallet software developers start implementing alerts that will warn users that they are about to receive "tainted" inputs"? I believe for users like us, we know it's absolutely BULLSHIT, but that won't be the situation for newbies and normies who merely want to use Bitcoin for "coffee transactions".

I see where you are going with this and I do partially agree.

However there is a separation in the user base.  There are people who only really care about Bitcoin for money and nothing else.  Then there are users like us who care about Bitcoin itself.  The people who only care about money would do any thing that stands against Bitcoin because they do not care.  They are not even aware they are hurting Bitcoin nor would they care much if they would be.  They would Know Your Customer their Coins, they would hold them in a Custodial Wallet and they would give personal information to 100 different parties for a few Shit Coins worth nothing.

So let them use the shittiest Wallets available if they want to do zero research.  Know it alls who give no shit about Bitcoin or what they are doing are not Bitcoin users to me and not a priority.  They are not going to care if you tell them taint is B S as long as their 'untainted Bitcoin' will get them more money to buy beer.  They are NOT going to use their Bitcoin for day to day Transactions!  They are going to withdraw their Bitcoin to Fiat, because Fiat is still the only real Currency to them, and they will use that instead.

We are still the users who use Bitcoin in the real world.  We are using Bitcoin so we do NOT use the stupid Fiat any more!  If there was no Blockchain Analysis then Wasabi, Monero and every other Coin or Privacy technique out there would make no sense to use.  It would be like about a decade ago when every body was spending Bitcoin without caring whether some body else spies over their Coins.

But we do have Blockchain Analysis and it makes things different.  I have HUGE doubts there will at one point be ONLY Wallet Software that implements alerts about 'Tainted Coins' available.  I can not imagine Bitcoin Core or Electrum ever pulling this out.  If they did, we would immediately have alternatives created by developers who care.

We already have such 'Wallets' today anyway.  Binance does not warn you about it, they straight up seize your Coins!  Is that not fun?  To all the many thousands of Binance users who continue using their service it seems it is!  Why would I care again?

So let them be.  Why would I care about the Coins of the people who do not care about Bitcoin.  It is or was their responsibility to research.

The problem is if this Tainted Coins narrative works for every body though.  Normies who want to use Bitcoin FOR coffee will most likely find this Forum.  Now think about all the Bitcoin Talk members who, even though they do not understand why and how we should use Bitcoin, read our posts hundreds of times and in order to fill their Signature Campaign posting requirements started to preach what we do.

Normies who want to use Bitcoin FOR coffee will quickly find out distinguishing two Bitcoin is nonsense.

Have you ever seen one of these movies where the Rich are separated from the Poor and they use different Currencies, they have two different kinds of societies et cetera?  That is how things will go in the future with Bitcoin.  Bitcoin users who agree with Taint out of lack of care and get their Coins seized at any corner for spending suspiciously much on candy and Bitcoin users who will be like us using whatever method we can to hide from BA bull shit, who will still have their own Coins in their own non Custodial Wallet no body can touch.

If we have to be segregated so be it.  As long as I have my own way and I can continue spending in a free way with you, o_e_l_e_o and any body else on Bitcoin Talk with no body else spying on us then I am fine with that reality.  Kruw is trying to taint that reality for us too and is trying to fool us into thinking the other side of users who do not care and agree with Taint is better.

[Wind_FURY]

But that's precisely my point. It could build a separation between "tainted" Bitcoin and "clean" Bitcoin, and that could make people value them dfferently. Currently we're not in a "taint-aware" world, but the shower-thought - "What if wallet software developers start implementing alerts that will warn users that they are about to receive "tainted" inputs"? I believe for users like us, we know it's absolutely BULLSHIT, but that won't be the situation for newbies and normies who merely want to use Bitcoin for "coffee transactions".

Which is why we need to speak out strongly against any entity which promotes the use of taint, such as Wasabi, and warn everyone to stay well away from ever using their products. Taint only exists because of the likes of Wasabi. If everyone stopped using any entity which promotes the use of taint, then the entire concept ceases to exist.

I acknowledge the fact that it should also be fought not just in the technical side but in the political side as well, but the point I was making is wallet alert features will come. Currently, Wasabi is the first? It might not be a direct feature in WasabiWallet, but it's a core feature before CoinJoining through their coordinator. Who's next?

Plus the "likes of Wasabi" will also include the likes of many other centralized merchants and services. There are probably some services right now that will lock their users' accounts on account of "taint".

I'll read that and reply later.

[Kruw]

Tune in to the coinjoin of the week! The favorite denomination in this transaction is 0.05 BTC with 15 inputs and 25 outputs.  Obscurity > Symmetry.

https://mempool.space/tx/347d3c481638c5da4cd5b18273728b40947059219d192a66ad4d2d8d46cf2c0a

Number of inputs: 329
Number of outputs: 301
Value: 33.24752183 BTC
Fee rate: 68.82 sats/vbyte
Input anonset: 4.06
Output anonset: 8.14

[o_e_l_e_o]

Who's next?

In terms of wallets, I suspect it will be ones owned by other malicious entities such as centralized exchanges. Coinbase wallet, or Trust wallet which is owned by Binance. Those are already terrible wallets, but when they start attacking bitcoin itself as Wasabi does then that becomes yet another reason not to use them.

There are probably some services right now that will lock their users' accounts on account of "taint".

Almost all centralized exchanges will do this. Some will even lock your coins if you deposit coins from a Wasabi coinjoin, which makes a complete mockery of Wasabi's pro-government and pro-surveillance stance.

[Wind_FURY]

Who's next?

In terms of wallets, I suspect it will be ones owned by other malicious entities such as centralized exchanges. Coinbase wallet, or Trust wallet which is owned by Binance. Those are already terrible wallets, but when they start attacking bitcoin itself as Wasabi does then that becomes yet another reason not to use them.

You're right, but I believe that state-actors will try to enforce that ALL wallet app developers should have such a feature to "protect" the Bitcoin users from receiving "sanctionable" outputs, or face the consequences.

The cowards like Wasabi will comply.

There are probably some services right now that will lock their users' accounts on account of "taint".

Almost all centralized exchanges will do this. Some will even lock your coins if you deposit coins from a Wasabi coinjoin, which makes a complete mockery of Wasabi's pro-government and pro-surveillance stance.

Like what I said in many posts in this topic. zkSNACKS' decision to filter transactions was truly never for the benefit of its users. It was made for the benefit of its own protection from government harrasment.

[Kruw]

Like what I said in many posts in this topic. zkSNACKS' decision to filter transactions was truly never for the benefit of its users. It was made for the benefit of its own protection from government harrasment.

You said "An ordinary user would be digging himself into a bigger hole if he mixes his coins with what usually would be the criminals' coins."  Since users such as yourself would rather have no privacy at all instead of mixing with criminals, zkSNACKs obliged your concern and is refusing to do business with criminals on your behalf:

Something to think about.

It might be safer to leave them alone. Tumbling with Coinjoin and mixers might mix your coins with the coins of criminals, black hat hackers, and dark market drug dealers.

But think about it, tumblers and coinjoins are not cheap, and who would be willing to pay for them to keep their privacy?

I believe an ordinary user would be digging himself into a bigger hole if he mixes his coins with what usually would be the criminals' coins.

[PrivacyG]

Since users such as yourself would rather have no privacy at all instead of mixing with criminals, zkSNACKs obliged your concern and is refusing to do business with criminals on your behalf:

Necro quoting as usual to justify Censorship.  Great.

[NickusSupremus]

If I have a Wasabi wallet "ABC" running on PC#1, can I install Wasabi wallet on PC#2 and 'recover' the wallet ABC on PC#2, and from that point use the wallet from both computers?

Wondering if recovering ABC on PC#2 will cause issues with ABC on PC#1.

Thanks

[Kruw]

If I have a Wasabi wallet "ABC" running on PC#1, can I install Wasabi wallet on PC#2 and 'recover' the wallet ABC on PC#2, and from that point use the wallet from both computers?

Wondering if recovering ABC on PC#2 will cause issues with ABC on PC#1.

Thanks

Simultaneous operation of the same seed could cause issues. If you are using the same seed on both computers, each client will not be aware of the addresses being used by the other, which could cause a collision (reuse).  If you want to use Wasabi on two devices, you should create two seeds.

[Wind_FURY]

Like what I said in many posts in this topic. zkSNACKS' decision to filter transactions was truly never for the benefit of its users. It was made for the benefit of its own protection from government harrasment.

You said "An ordinary user would be digging himself into a bigger hole if he mixes his coins with what usually would be the criminals' coins."  Since users such as yourself would rather have no privacy at all instead of mixing with criminals, zkSNACKs obliged your concern and is refusing to do business with criminals on your behalf:

Something to think about.

It might be safer to leave them alone. Tumbling with Coinjoin and mixers might mix your coins with the coins of criminals, black hat hackers, and dark market drug dealers.

But think about it, tumblers and coinjoins are not cheap, and who would be willing to pay for them to keep their privacy?

I believe an ordinary user would be digging himself into a bigger hole if he mixes his coins with what usually would be the criminals' coins.

I may have said that, but it doesn't change the fact that WasabiWallet and zkSNACKS developers are cowards when they hired the services of blockchain analysis companies and implemented filters/censors. Peter Todd also said so in that video you posted.

But if you deny it, OK.

I also wouldn't want your coordinator to stop filtering, it's very useful for both clean UTXOs, and "tainted" UTXOs to make them like "clean" UTXOs.

[NickusSupremus]

If I have a Wasabi wallet "ABC" running on PC#1, can I install Wasabi wallet on PC#2 and 'recover' the wallet ABC on PC#2, and from that point use the wallet from both computers?

Wondering if recovering ABC on PC#2 will cause issues with ABC on PC#1.

Thanks

Simultaneous operation of the same seed could cause issues. If you are using the same seed on both computers, each client will not be aware of the addresses being used by the other, which could cause a collision (reuse).  If you want to use Wasabi on two devices, you should create two seeds.

Thank you Mr. Kruw!

[Synchronice]

Like what I said in many posts in this topic. zkSNACKS' decision to filter transactions was truly never for the benefit of its users. It was made for the benefit of its own protection from government harrasment.

That's what I understood from blog post written on Wasabi's website. But to be honest, there is nothing wrong if it was done to its own protection from government harassment because it's never a clever idea to get yourself arrested or bury alive a good project, or at least once a good project. But my view still stays the same, I think Wasabi is not the best choice for one's privacy because they fund blockchain analysis and blockchain analysis companies are enemy of privacy, their main aim is to destroy the existence of privacy, that's what they want. Now one can call it whatever they want, fighting against crime or etc but it still destroys privacy.

[arabspaceship123]

That's the view most ppl hold because if privacy isn't strong they won't use Wasabi Wallet. If they're saying they'll protect privacy but they're paying blockchain analysis companies it's hard to follow their trail or believe them. It would've been worthier if zkSNACKs posted an apology saying they didn't want to use blockchain analysis did it to avoid getting charged by American regulators.

That's what I understood from blog post written on Wasabi's website. But to be honest, there is nothing wrong if it was done to its own protection from government harassment because it's never a clever idea to get yourself arrested or bury alive a good project, or at least once a good project. But my view still stays the same, I think Wasabi is not the best choice for one's privacy because they fund blockchain analysis and blockchain analysis companies are enemy of privacy, their main aim is to destroy the existence of privacy, that's what they want. Now one can call it whatever they want, fighting against crime or etc but it still destroys privacy.

[Kruw]

That's the view most ppl hold because if privacy isn't strong they won't use Wasabi Wallet. If they're saying they'll protect privacy but they're paying blockchain analysis companies it's hard to follow their trail or believe them. It would've been worthier if zkSNACKs posted an apology saying they didn't want to use blockchain analysis did it to avoid getting charged by American regulators.

You don't have to believe anyone, you can verify for yourself that Wasabi Wallet never compromises your privacy because all of the code is open source.

[Wind_FURY]

Like what I said in many posts in this topic. zkSNACKS' decision to filter transactions was truly never for the benefit of its users. It was made for the benefit of its own protection from government harrasment.

That's what I understood from blog post written on Wasabi's website. But to be honest, there is nothing wrong if it was done to its own protection from government harassment because it's never a clever idea to get yourself arrested or bury alive a good project, or at least once a good project.

That's what I said in many of my posts in the topic. In fact, I tried to defend Wasabi's decision when everyone who posted in here were attacking Kruw for it. It was merely to try to look at the situation from their point of view. We may not like it, but it was the right thing for them.

But my view still stays the same, I think Wasabi is not the best choice for one's privacy because they fund blockchain analysis and blockchain analysis companies are enemy of privacy, their main aim is to destroy the existence of privacy, that's what they want. Now one can call it whatever they want, fighting against crime or etc but it still destroys privacy.

From another viewpoint, if you want "privacy" + "clean" outputs, and you hold "tainted" coins but found a way for your inputs to pass through Wasabi's filter, do it.

[PrivacyG]

That's what I said in many of my posts in the topic. In fact, I tried to defend Wasabi's decision when everyone who posted in here were attacking Kruw for it. It was merely to try to look at the situation from their point of view. We may not like it, but it was the right thing for them.

There would have not been much of a back lash at all if they had this decision with no resorting to deceiving, lying and accusing.

I can imagine their statement on Bitcoin Talk with a ton of Merits and almost every reply praising them for what they had done so far.  It is what it is.  I think and hope we all have enough maturity to understand where this decision comes from.

How can I ever trust or view Wasabi the same however after their way of handling the situation?  Think about it for a second.  Speaking out of my own experience.  I moved a lot of money through Wasabi.  They earned a TON of commissions off me.  And I willingly did this out of love and support.  I used to Coin Join some of the Bitcoin I did not NEED to have Coin Joined but only to support their work.

Then I see Wasabi accusing me and trying to deceive me.  Instead of saying 'Hey you idiot, for our own safety and out of fear we decided to take the wrong turn' they do this.  How can I respect that?  It is like a huge 'Thanks for the money, now fuck you' up my bum from their team.

I promise I would have MOST LIKELY kept using Wasabi had they been sincere front up.  And I am not asking to have my boots licked by Wasabi for being a previous customer.  They do not know who I am anyway and I could always be just a liar.  I expect them to treat me like any other customer they had.  I just wanted to see them tell the truth instead of treating any body who critiques like the biggest shit they had ever seen.

-----

Anyway.  Expect more anger every time another Service like Wasabi turns their back against us.  It is anger that I and likely most of us who back lashed at them feel.  Because we are running out of options.  It is frustrating and annoying.  Not even the decision but the way they handle the situation.

[Wind_FURY]

That's what I said in many of my posts in the topic. In fact, I tried to defend Wasabi's decision when everyone who posted in here were attacking Kruw for it. It was merely to try to look at the situation from their point of view. We may not like it, but it was the right thing for them.

There would have not been much of a back lash at all if they had this decision with no resorting to deceiving, lying and accusing.

That's true, but like any project that's building on top of Bitcoin, developers can't please everyone. I believe with Wasabi, they should encourage the community to start their own coordinators.

I can imagine their statement on Bitcoin Talk with a ton of Merits and almost every reply praising them for what they had done so far.  It is what it is.  I think and hope we all have enough maturity to understand where this decision comes from.

In BitcoinTalk? That can't be true. We're of the cynical sort.

How can I ever trust or view Wasabi the same however after their way of handling the situation?  Think about it for a second.  Speaking out of my own experience.  I moved a lot of money through Wasabi.  They earned a TON of commissions off me.  And I willingly did this out of love and support.  I used to Coin Join some of the Bitcoin I did not NEED to have Coin Joined but only to support their work.

It's as simple as if you're not happy with them anymore, then it's time to move on. Use JoinMarket, share your experience, and make ELI-5 guides for the forum to encourage them to use it in case they want to use CoinJoin.

Then I see Wasabi accusing me and trying to deceive me.  Instead of saying 'Hey you idiot, for our own safety and out of fear we decided to take the wrong turn' they do this.  How can I respect that?  It is like a huge 'Thanks for the money, now fuck you' up my bum from their team.

A behavior that's not like any serious developer that I've met onlne. Probably double-check if Kruw is actually Kruw? "Don't trust, verify".

I promise I would have MOST LIKELY kept using Wasabi had they been sincere front up.  And I am not asking to have my boots licked by Wasabi for being a previous customer.  They do not know who I am anyway and I could always be just a liar.  I expect them to treat me like any other customer they had.  I just wanted to see them tell the truth instead of treating any body who critiques like the biggest shit they had ever seen.

-----

Anyway.  Expect more anger every time another Service like Wasabi turns their back against us.  It is anger that I and likely most of us who back lashed at them feel.  Because we are running out of options.  It is frustrating and annoying.  Not even the decision but the way they handle the situation.

👍

[Kruw]

Pmalek and WIND_FURY, your choice to lure people into depositing their coins into a "Mixing Site" has led to their data being turned over to the government:

To all criminal users of former mixer Sinbad.io,
This is a collective warning issued by the Dutch Investigation Service for Financial and Tax Crime (FIOD) and the Dutch Public Prosecution Office.
Our investigation has uncovered illicit activities on this mixer platform and the logs obtained have compromised the anonymity of numerous users.
We urge all criminal users and admins of mixers to cease all unlawful actions immediately. Persistent engagement will lead to severe legal consequences. We are resolute in pursuing and prosecuting all involved in criminal activities.
Your anonymity is no longer assured. Law enforcement actions are imminent.
With Vigilance,
Dutch Investigation Service for Financial and Tax Crime (FIOD) and the Dutch Public Prosecution Office

If only someone had warned everyone about mixing sites collecting your data! 

[Pmalek]

Pmalek and WIND_FURY, your choice to lure people into depositing their coins into a "Mixing Site" has led to their data being turned over to the government

Using a mixer isn't illegal. Mixing coins isn't illegal. Advertising a mixer isn't illegal. Hacking, scamming, or stealing money from people is illegal. Trying to hide the traces and history of illegally obtained coins isn't allowed, regardless if it's with a mixer, coinjoining, or any other techniques. Even if you get paid for services you provided with illegally obtained funds, it isn't your fault, unless you knew about it and agreed to receive such coins. You can literally have money in your pocket right now that has the worst kind of history you can imagine.

Regarding the data. Using mixers through clearnet sites was never recommended. That should always be directed through TOR.
Like I said, the use of a mixer isn't illegal. The only people who need to be worried are those who mixed coins that originate from hacks or other illegal sources.