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[arabspaceship123]

zkSNACKs can't say they believe in privacy if they're spying on you at the same time.

zkSNACKs isn't spying on you. zkSNACKs can't spy on ANYONE due to the IP address and xpub address protections built into the open source Wasabi client:

I'm sorry my words weren't best expressed. The protections you're saying means zkSNACKs isn't spying on Wasabi wallet users but they don't know which info's being kept by blockchain analysis companies or what they're going to do with it. They haven't said if they're using Coinfirm or other but it doesn't matter if the personal data gets in the hands of different players that way user will never discover who's spying on them.

If zkSNACKs hasn't allowed outside firms to organise independent audits of their operations it'll be good for Wasabi Wallet users to seek reassurances.

All of the code is open source, anyone can audit it themselves to seek reassurances that no data is ever leaked by their client.  You do not have to trust zkSNACKs at all, you can verify everything for yourself.

It's an advantage to have access to all of the open source code for Wasabi wallet but we don't know what's happening to data inside zkSNACKs servers so independent audits would've reassured Wasabi Wallet users.

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[Kruw]

The protections you're saying means zkSNACKs isn't spying on Wasabi wallet users but they don't know which info's being kept by blockchain analysis companies or what they're going to do with it. They haven't said if they're using Coinfirm or other but it doesn't matter if the personal data gets in the hands of different players that way user will never discover who's spying on them.

zkSNACKs can't provide any info to blockchain analysis companies because the Wasabi client itself prevents any info from being leaked.  You never have to worry about what blockchain analysis companies are going to do with your info because they don't receive any info.  You can verify that zkSNACKs is never able to collect any info because the Wasabi client is open source.

It's an advantage to have access to all of the open source code for Wasabi wallet but we don't know what's happening to data inside zkSNACKs servers so independent audits would've reassured Wasabi Wallet users.

What is happening in zkSNACKs servers doesn't matter because your open source client is what enforces your privacy, not their servers.

[Dont Trust Verify]

If zkSNACKs hasn't allowed outside firms to organise independent audits of their operations they should. It'll be good if Wasabi Wallet users seek reassurances. I don't know if Unijoin plagiarised Wasabi's legal documents or if Unijoin's functions didn't copy the open source and non-custodial aspects in full. I didn't read posts with those allegations before you've said it.

Of course you don't know what these dodgy centralized mixers are doing because all the shills in this forum would like to keep you ignorant so they can continue profiting off them.

There is no trust in zkSNACKs required. Tor is on by default, it's not opt-in like Samourai or Sparrow. They don't collect your xpub like Samourai or Sparrow's "trusted" electrum servers. Block data is downloaded on your device so you don't have to make an API call to blockchain.info like Samourai did to get your balance. Wasabi is non-custodial so there is no way for the coordinator to link mixed outputs to registered inputs, that's what Unijoin does.

[BoXXoB]

Are these newbie shills paid by zkSNACKs or is zkSNACKs behind those accounts? This entire thread is becoming a mess.

It's an advantage to have access to all of the open source code for Wasabi wallet but we don't know what's happening to data inside zkSNACKs servers so independent audits would've reassured Wasabi Wallet users.

I can only speak for the protocol that Wasabi wallet uses but based on that, there is not much personal information that the coordinator could leak. So although I do not approve what zkSNACKs is doing, if the protocol works as explained in docs, they cannot compromise the users' privacy apart from sharing UTXO that participates in coinjoin. An audit would be useful to know if the protocol works exactly as explained.

[Kruw]

Are these newbie shills paid by zkSNACKs or is zkSNACKs behind those accounts? This entire thread is becoming a mess.

You think zkSNACKs would pay people to create accounts on here to tell people to create a coordinator that competes against zkSNACKs?...  How does that make sense?

[xtests]

Kruw, nopara73, an important question to you guys:

what are chances for a community non-AML wasabi coordinator to be included into official's Wasabi ecosystem?

By including I mean that if someone makes a PR to your main repo with a code to add a UI switch between zkSNACKs and a well-known community coordinators, will it be accepted and its usage encouraged?  Alternatively, in case you don't want a UI switch, would it be possible to include information about a community coordinator on Wasabi's official site and provide extensive information on how to switch between zkSNACKs and community coordinators?

I think nobody has launched a community coordinator yet due to fears of being ignored by your official maintainers, which would lead to issues with gaining liquidity.

In case we know that its usage won't be discouraged by official maintainers and key contributors, there won't be any problem launching a non-AML community coordinator. I will be able to organize it personally in collaboration with one of reputable Bitcointalk members who is also interested in this and ensure it's well-promoted.

[BoXXoB]

Are these newbie shills paid by zkSNACKs or is zkSNACKs behind those accounts? This entire thread is becoming a mess.

You think zkSNACKs would pay people to create accounts on here to tell people to create a coordinator that competes against zkSNACKs?...  How does that make sense?

Take "Dont Trust Verify" user for example. They don't tell people to create a coordinator. They have 2 posts on the forum in total and both to defend zkSNACKs.

[Dont Trust Verify]

Are these newbie shills paid by zkSNACKs or is zkSNACKs behind those accounts? This entire thread is becoming a mess.

You think zkSNACKs would pay people to create accounts on here to tell people to create a coordinator that competes against zkSNACKs?...  How does that make sense?

Take "Dont Trust Verify" user for example. They don't tell people to create a coordinator. They have 2 posts on the forum in total and both to defend zkSNACKs.

I am all for having multiple coordinators. Chaincase was around a few years ago and I wish they were still here but the dev decided to focus more on payjoins.

I have been on this forum for years. I created a throwaway account because the Mixtum and Whirlwind shills have used the threat of negative trust feedback to try and silence criticism of these mixers. I am not associated with Wasabi or zkSNACKs in any way.

[nopara73]

xtests unfortunately it's not an option, as it would display negative motives and potentially erase any good that came from this difficult choice

[NotATether]

xtests unfortunately it's not an option, as it would display negative motives and potentially erase any good that came from this difficult choice

How would a community-ran coordinator display negative motives?

All that needs to be done is for a whale to throw in some of their own coins to bootstrap the UTXO-making process, and existing settings in Wasabi wallet should allow for this coordinator to be specified manually.

Decentralized coinjoin software, particularly those that do not utilize AML blacklisting, does not necessarily have to be seen as a black mark on Bitcoin.

[ABCbits]

I think nobody has launched a community coordinator yet due to fears of being ignored by your official maintainers, which would lead to issues with gaining liquidity.

Actually i can recall 2 WabiSabi coordinator (not run by zkSNACKs) used to be exist. One of them was https://chaincase.app/.

xtests unfortunately it's not an option, as it would display negative motives and potentially erase any good that came from this difficult choice

And what exactly negative motives you're talking about?

[xtests]

xtests unfortunately it's not an option, as it would display negative motives and potentially erase any good that came from this difficult choice

I obviously would like to know what you mean by "negative motives" and "goods of zkSNACKs AML coordinator".

The latter is:

Understandable, if you are talking on behalf of zkSNACKs which was pressured by some law enforcement agency to become AML-compliant, which is not surprising and often happens to many projects with non-anonymous persons behind them thinking the system will show mercy to them while having their IDs. Don't worry, not a big deal, since zkSNACKs weren't first and won't be last to fall under such consequences and not having enough money for lawyers to defend themselves from the banking lobby and their servants in LE agencies.

Not understandable, if we are talking of Wasabi Wallet as a fully open-source solution where your private company's business interests and policies should not affect the public code at all and it's extremely unethical to talk about an open-source solution within a scope of your personal interests.

My question was directed to you as a person who (hopefully) follows FOSS ethics and not as a zkSNACKs employee/affiliate, so I hope you could clarify your answer and stance on this with more details.

Actually i can recall 2 WabiSabi coordinator (not run by zkSNACKs) used to be exist. One of them was https://chaincase.app/.

By "launching a community coordinator" I meant naming and announcing it explicitely as a Wasabi wallet coordinator and not something like "MyPrivacyWalletApp" by creating a fork and launching an iOS app that would represent no interest to Wasabi users, since privacy and iOS are noninterchangeable, because by using iOS you automatically agree on giving up all your privacy to Apple.

By "launching a community coordinator" I also mean at least the following:

   - Making a proper ANN thread on Bitcointalk for a Wasabi community coordinator and not some forked app
   - Making a dedicated website, accepting donations and publishing transparency reports
   - Doing minimal advertisement campaign across Bitcointalk community
   - Dedicating some time to advertise it on social media with reachability to Wasabi user base (Reddit, Twitter and Telegram at least)
   - Not doing any forks of Wasabi and focusing only on running and promoting a coordinator

These 2 you have mentioned are not Wasabi community coordinators at all, and here is why:

• Chaincase - an iOS app that was condemned to fail by its creators since its launch because of its horrible project model and marketing choices, despite of the fact it uses a WabiSabi backend. First of all, their description (from https://github.com/chaincase-app/Chaincase-iOS-Beta) is "The only privacy preserving bitcoin app on iOS" which already filters out 99% of Wasabi users seeking for an alternative coordinator. That project was not launched to be a Wasabi community coordinator at all and it doesnt't appear in Google results searching for "wasabi wallet alternative coordinator". When I am seeking for a community coordinator, I am seeking to modify my Wasabi Wallet config that would take less than 1 minute and go ahead start using a different coordinator, without having to buy an iPhone to install Chaincase.
  
  
• Someone who launched a Reddit post announcing their coordinator haven't dedicated time to advertise it properly. No ANN on Bitcointalk, no website. I don't consider "a community coordinator" if someone bought a 10$ VPS, launched a WabiSabi instance and haven't announced it properly through all possible communication channels. Considering a current situation with Wasabi, a "community" coordinator should be a unique peering point and alternative to the official coordinator, because stamping many unknown coordinators won't do a thing.

[Kruw]

• Chaincase - an iOS app that was condemned to fail by its creators since its launch because of its horrible project model and marketing choices, despite of the fact it uses a WabiSabi backend. First of all, their description (from https://github.com/chaincase-app/Chaincase-iOS-Beta) is "The only privacy preserving bitcoin app on iOS" which already filters out 99% of Wasabi users seeking for an alternative coordinator. That project was not launched to be a Wasabi community coordinator at all and it doesnt't appear in Google results searching for "wasabi wallet alternative coordenator". When I am seeking for a community coordinator, I am seeking to modify my Wasabi Wallet config that would take less than 1 minute and go ahead start using a different coordinator, without having to buy an iPhone to install Chaincase.

You are confused.  Chaincase ran a ZeroLink coordinator, not a WabiSabi coordinator.  Second, you did not have to have an iPhone to connect to the Chaincase coordinator, you could simply connect to their coordinator on your existing Wasabi Wallet.

Someone who launched a Reddit post announcing their coordenator haven't dedicated time to advertise it properly. No ANN on Bitcointalk, no website. I don't consider "a community coordinator" if someone bought a 10$ VPS, launched a WabiSabi instance and haven't announced it properly through all possible communication channels. Considering a current situation with Wasabi, a "community" coordenator should be a unique peering point and alternative to the official coordenator, because stamping many unknown coordinators won't do a thing.

So you've listed 2 community coordinators so far, then arbitrarily declare they are not community coordinators.  Here's a third community coordinator, I'm sure you will now dismiss it as well:

Yep.  Anyone who feels brave enough to copy and paste the coordinator code can do so.  Others have already because they actually care about what they are saying: https://t.me/WasabiWallet/70611

[xtests]

You are confused.  Chaincase ran a ZeroLink coordinator, not a WabiSabi coordinator.  Second, you did not have to have an iPhone to connect to the Chaincase coordinator, you could simply connect to their coordinator on your existing Wasabi Wallet.

Not at all, since I was talking about them being a wallet and not a project dedicated to run a community coordinator which lead to no liquidity. You are probably getting confused about the context I am talking on, since what you have replied is irrelevant to the subject.

So you've listed 2 community coordinators so far, then arbitrarily declare they are not community coordinators.  Here's a third community coordinator, I'm sure you will now dismiss it as well:

Yep.  Anyone who feels brave enough to copy and paste the coordinator code can do so.  Others have already because they actually care about what they are saying: https://t.me/WasabiWallet/70611

Not dismissing, but since I didn't find it by a simple search engine search, how one is supposed to find that one? Where is a website? Where is an announcement or information on Bitcointalk? The coordinator you linked is a great example of poor advertisement and management that I am talking about. Low exposure leads to low liquidity.

However, great to know there is at least some coordinator running that is supposed to be used by the community, but it's sad that no announcements and exposure within a community was done at all.

[Kruw]

Not dismissing, but since I didn't find it by a simple search engine search, how one is supposed to find that one? Where is a website? Where is an announcement or information on Bitcointalk? The coordinator you linked is a great example of poor advertisement and management that I am talking about. Low exposure leads to low liquidity.

However, great to know there is at least some coordinator running that is supposed to be used by the community, but it's sad that no announcements and exposure within a community was done at all.

It seems you have a very narrow idea of what constitutes a community coordinator.  Using Nostr as an order book to compare the coordinators on the market (like Joinmarket compares makers on the market) is more effective than search engines: https://docs.btcpayserver.org/Wabisabi/#running-a-coordinator

[ABCbits]

Actually i can recall 2 WabiSabi coordinator (not run by zkSNACKs) used to be exist. One of them was https://chaincase.app/.

By "launching a community coordinator" I meant naming and announcing it explicitely as a Wasabi wallet coordinator
--snip--

Your definition or criteria is rather strict, although i'm not here to argue what counts as community coordinator.

• Chaincase - an iOS app that was condemned to fail by its creators since its launch because of its horrible project model and marketing choices, despite of the fact it uses a WabiSabi backend. First of all, their description (from https://github.com/chaincase-app/Chaincase-iOS-Beta) is "The only privacy preserving bitcoin app on iOS" which already filters out 99% of Wasabi users seeking for an alternative coordinator. That project was not launched to be a Wasabi community coordinator at all and it doesnt't appear in Google results searching for "wasabi wallet alternative coordinator". When I am seeking for a community coordinator, I am seeking to modify my Wasabi Wallet config that would take less than 1 minute and go ahead start using a different coordinator, without having to buy an iPhone to install Chaincase.
  

At very least, i'm sure they used run their own ZeroLink (another CoinJoin protocol developed by zkSNACKs in past) coordinator where Wasabi Wallet user can connect to theirs by editing URL on configuration file.

[Medusah]

Do you also acknowledge that you have shared your permission to reject coinjoins with them?  One baby step at a time.

What do you mean?  zkSNACKs doesn't need my permission for anything other than my signature on coinjoin transactions. If I don't see the amount of money I expect in the output addresses I specified, then I do not sign the transaction.

I mean that the zkSNACKs coordinator can decide to reject certain outputs from the coinjoin process.  When I say "you", I refer to zkSNACKs, because as per your claims you are a contributor to Wasabi project.

And that is not bad.  It is true for every coinjoin implementation.  The bad part comes when the privacy focused company shares permission with a company that has opposed interests and now that company has power over who is allowed to gain privacy.  Do you agree that a company with opposed interests to enhancing Bitcoin's privacy, gaining the permission to tell who is allowed to have privacy is an inferior status of a privacy company?

[Kruw]

I mean that the zkSNACKs coordinator can decide to reject certain outputs from the coinjoin process.  When I say "you", I refer to zkSNACKs, because as per your claims you are a contributor to Wasabi project.

And that is not bad.  It is true for every coinjoin implementation.  The bad part comes when the privacy focused company shares permission with a company that has opposed interests and now that company has power over who is allowed to gain privacy.  Do you agree that a company with opposed interests to enhancing Bitcoin's privacy, gaining the permission to tell who is allowed to have privacy is an inferior status of a privacy company?

I don't speak on behalf of zkSNACKs.  As for my personal opinion, I do not care if my coins are joined with any other individual, but since I haven't been inconvenienced by any blacklisting myself, so I don't really have a reason to complain.  However, there are people who would opt out of using privacy tools if those privacy tools would "provide cover" for criminals or cause them to "inherit taint", so some would consider this superior service:

Something to think about.

It might be safer to leave them alone. Tumbling with Coinjoin and mixers might mix your coins with the coins of criminals, black hat hackers, and dark market drug dealers.

But think about it, tumblers and coinjoins are not cheap, and who would be willing to pay for them to keep their privacy?

I believe an ordinary user would be digging himself into a bigger hole if he mixes his coins with what usually would be the criminals' coins.

[NotATether]

I don't speak on behalf of zkSNACKs.  As for my personal opinion, I do not care if my coins are joined with any other individual, but since I haven't been inconvenienced by any blacklisting myself, so I don't really have a reason to complain.  However, there are people who would opt out of using privacy tools if those privacy tools would "provide cover" for criminals or cause them to "inherit taint", so some would consider this superior service:

Ultimately it's just interactive coinjoin versus non-interactive coinjoin, so what is the big deal about taking about its use by criminals. As far as I know, there's nothing stopping them from using Wasabi Wallet for anonymity purposes - as blacklisting is not implemented yet (and even if it was implemented, the blacklist will catch some but it cannot prevent a tumbling of coins derived from a hack if it is not reported quickly enough) - just as they are using non-interactive mixers for this purpose currently.

[Kruw]

Ultimately it's just interactive coinjoin versus non-interactive coinjoin, so what is the big deal about taking about its use by criminals. As far as I know, there's nothing stopping them from using Wasabi Wallet for anonymity purposes - as blacklisting is not implemented yet (and even if it was implemented, the blacklist will catch some but it cannot prevent a tumbling of coins derived from a hack if it is not reported quickly enough) - just as they are using non-interactive mixers for this purpose currently.

All coinjoins are interactive, I'm not sure what you mean.