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Author Topic: A Resource Based Economy  (Read 261207 times)
LightRider
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April 05, 2011, 08:27:38 AM
 #21

cooperation

RBE holds collectivism as a fundamental tenet.  Collectivism creates risk.  Risk is an unaccounted-for negative externality, just like pollution.  There is no free lunch.  You can't beat the second law of thermodynamics.  Though there is room for improvement, no amount of cooperation can create an economy unconstrained by resource limitations.

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So you believe that helping all people reach their fullest potential is not a positive goal to work towards? Are you afraid that having a cooperative society that values life and our environment would be detrimental?

Yes.  The "fullest potential" for a human mating pair, given current technology, is at least a dozen offspring and several hundred acres of resource consumption.  This is not sustainable.  Encouraging this is cultural suicide.  It is much better to encourage sustainable growth of living standards through resource conservation and technological advancement.  And the best way to do that is through individual property ownership.

You're confusing highest potential for highest potential consumption, which is not my intention. People in highly technological societies do not tend to produce as many offspring, as doing so is a reaction to scarcity. What I mean by potential is the ability to learn and contribute to society in terms of new ideas, technologies and abilities that help improve our lives.

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April 05, 2011, 08:32:11 AM
 #22

cooperation

RBE holds collectivism as a fundamental tenet.  Collectivism creates risk.  Risk is an unaccounted-for negative externality, just like pollution.  There is no free lunch.  You can't beat the second law of thermodynamics.  Though there is room for improvement, no amount of cooperation can create an economy unconstrained by resource limitations.

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So you believe that helping all people reach their fullest potential is not a positive goal to work towards? Are you afraid that having a cooperative society that values life and our environment would be detrimental?

Yes.  The "fullest potential" for a human mating pair, given current technology, is at least a dozen offspring and several hundred acres of resource consumption.  This is not sustainable.  Encouraging this is cultural suicide.  It is much better to encourage sustainable growth of living standards through resource conservation and technological advancement.  And the best way to do that is through individual property ownership.

You're confusing highest potential for highest potential consumption, which is not my intention. People in highly technological societies do not tend to produce as many offspring, as doing so is a reaction to scarcity. What I mean by potential is the ability to learn and contribute to society in terms of new ideas, technologies and abilities that help improve our lives.
There is no greater tragedy than reaching ones full potential
Because when you reach the top there is only one place left to go.

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LightRider
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April 05, 2011, 02:01:47 PM
 #23

cooperation

RBE holds collectivism as a fundamental tenet.  Collectivism creates risk.  Risk is an unaccounted-for negative externality, just like pollution.  There is no free lunch.  You can't beat the second law of thermodynamics.  Though there is room for improvement, no amount of cooperation can create an economy unconstrained by resource limitations.

Quote
So you believe that helping all people reach their fullest potential is not a positive goal to work towards? Are you afraid that having a cooperative society that values life and our environment would be detrimental?

Yes.  The "fullest potential" for a human mating pair, given current technology, is at least a dozen offspring and several hundred acres of resource consumption.  This is not sustainable.  Encouraging this is cultural suicide.  It is much better to encourage sustainable growth of living standards through resource conservation and technological advancement.  And the best way to do that is through individual property ownership.

You're confusing highest potential for highest potential consumption, which is not my intention. People in highly technological societies do not tend to produce as many offspring, as doing so is a reaction to scarcity. What I mean by potential is the ability to learn and contribute to society in terms of new ideas, technologies and abilities that help improve our lives.
There is no greater tragedy than reaching ones full potential
Because when you reach the top there is only one place left to go.

This does not make any sense. There are no final frontiers of knowledge and we can never reach perfection. There will always be something new to learn or somewhere new to go to.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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April 05, 2011, 02:12:55 PM
 #24

cooperation

RBE holds collectivism as a fundamental tenet.  Collectivism creates risk.  Risk is an unaccounted-for negative externality, just like pollution.  There is no free lunch.  You can't beat the second law of thermodynamics.  Though there is room for improvement, no amount of cooperation can create an economy unconstrained by resource limitations.

Quote
So you believe that helping all people reach their fullest potential is not a positive goal to work towards? Are you afraid that having a cooperative society that values life and our environment would be detrimental?

Yes.  The "fullest potential" for a human mating pair, given current technology, is at least a dozen offspring and several hundred acres of resource consumption.  This is not sustainable.  Encouraging this is cultural suicide.  It is much better to encourage sustainable growth of living standards through resource conservation and technological advancement.  And the best way to do that is through individual property ownership.

You're confusing highest potential for highest potential consumption, which is not my intention. People in highly technological societies do not tend to produce as many offspring, as doing so is a reaction to scarcity. What I mean by potential is the ability to learn and contribute to society in terms of new ideas, technologies and abilities that help improve our lives.
There is no greater tragedy than reaching ones full potential
Because when you reach the top there is only one place left to go.

This does not make any sense. There are no final frontiers of knowledge and we can never reach perfection. There will always be something new to learn or somewhere new to go to.
it makes perfect sense

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bittersweet
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April 05, 2011, 03:25:11 PM
 #25

To be honest, everyone who wants to make one global system scares the hell out of me. Especially if it's mixed with some algorithms will decide what's the best for you mumbo-jumbo. Go ahead and build your futuristic city, but I will opt-out from living there, sorry dude.

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April 05, 2011, 11:27:16 PM
 #26

You can have all the food you want as long as all the farmers are slaves.......

Or do you mean everyone has to grow food and hand it over to an authority to be allocated ?

It sounds like a great plan......
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April 06, 2011, 12:04:34 AM
 #27

To be honest, everyone who wants to make one global system scares the hell out of me. Especially if it's mixed with some algorithms will decide what's the best for you mumbo-jumbo. Go ahead and build your futuristic city, but I will opt-out from living there, sorry dude.
They shouldn't scare you because they are only going to fall flat on their faces in their attempts to construct such a system. The massive amount of overhead that would be generated from a global system is unimaginable. It simply wouldn't work. There is no reason why people should want it to either.
LightRider
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April 06, 2011, 12:20:03 AM
 #28

You can have all the food you want as long as all the farmers are slaves.......

Or do you mean everyone has to grow food and hand it over to an authority to be allocated ?

It sounds like a great plan......

We can use automated agricultural systems that produce far more food than we can today in a fraction of the land, water and harmful fertilizers and insecticides. This is possible today, but many people are ignorant of this and other technologies.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
em3rgentOrdr
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April 06, 2011, 03:17:37 AM
 #29

You can have all the food you want as long as all the farmers are slaves.......

Or do you mean everyone has to grow food and hand it over to an authority to be allocated ?

It sounds like a great plan......

We can use automated agricultural systems that produce far more food than we can today in a fraction of the land, water and harmful fertilizers and insecticides. This is possible today, but many people are ignorant of this and other technologies.

Well if you or your friends know how to make these automated agricultural systems that produce far more food than we can today in a fraction of the land, water and harmful fertilizers and insecticides, then why don't you be an entrepreneur and do it now?  Create a business plan, share it with some investors, buy some land, do it, and prosper.  Then use the profits to continue to further your goals.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
LightRider
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April 06, 2011, 03:28:33 AM
 #30

You can have all the food you want as long as all the farmers are slaves.......

Or do you mean everyone has to grow food and hand it over to an authority to be allocated ?

It sounds like a great plan......

We can use automated agricultural systems that produce far more food than we can today in a fraction of the land, water and harmful fertilizers and insecticides. This is possible today, but many people are ignorant of this and other technologies.

Well if you or your friends know how to make these automated agricultural systems that produce far more food than we can today in a fraction of the land, water and harmful fertilizers and insecticides, then why don't you be an entrepreneur and do it now?  Create a business plan, share it with some investors, buy some land, do it, and prosper.  Then use the profits to continue to further your goals.
Already being done. But profit is not my end goal.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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April 06, 2011, 03:31:44 AM
 #31

Nonsense. You benefit some how.
em3rgentOrdr
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April 06, 2011, 04:11:00 AM
 #32

You can have all the food you want as long as all the farmers are slaves.......

Or do you mean everyone has to grow food and hand it over to an authority to be allocated ?

It sounds like a great plan......

We can use automated agricultural systems that produce far more food than we can today in a fraction of the land, water and harmful fertilizers and insecticides. This is possible today, but many people are ignorant of this and other technologies.

Well if you or your friends know how to make these automated agricultural systems that produce far more food than we can today in a fraction of the land, water and harmful fertilizers and insecticides, then why don't you be an entrepreneur and do it now?  Create a business plan, share it with some investors, buy some land, do it, and prosper.  Then use the profits to continue to further your goals.
Already being done. But profit is not my end goal.

Awesome!  Now all you have to do is sell those Omega Garden™ Hydrophonics Volkgarden® (Copyright © 2011. All rights reserved.) for bitcoins and also setup a market to buy produce from it in exchange for bitcoins, and you'll make friends with us bitcoiners.  Smiley

BTW, what is with these Resource-Based Economy folks and Intellectual Property?  Wink

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
LightRider
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April 06, 2011, 04:54:53 AM
 #33

You can have all the food you want as long as all the farmers are slaves.......

Or do you mean everyone has to grow food and hand it over to an authority to be allocated ?

It sounds like a great plan......

We can use automated agricultural systems that produce far more food than we can today in a fraction of the land, water and harmful fertilizers and insecticides. This is possible today, but many people are ignorant of this and other technologies.

Well if you or your friends know how to make these automated agricultural systems that produce far more food than we can today in a fraction of the land, water and harmful fertilizers and insecticides, then why don't you be an entrepreneur and do it now?  Create a business plan, share it with some investors, buy some land, do it, and prosper.  Then use the profits to continue to further your goals.
Already being done. But profit is not my end goal.

Awesome!  Now all you have to do is sell those Omega Garden™ Hydrophonics Volkgarden® (Copyright © 2011. All rights reserved.) for bitcoins and also setup a market to buy produce from it in exchange for bitcoins, and you'll make friends with us bitcoiners.  Smiley

BTW, what is with these Resource-Based Economy folks and Intellectual Property?  Wink

I am not personally affiliated with that company, I just pointed it out as an example the most basic implementation of the technology I was referring to. I hope they start accepting bitcoins though, that would be great!

I don't understand your reference to intellectual property or how it relates to RBE proponents.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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April 06, 2011, 05:07:24 AM
 #34

I think that's enough bashing of lightrider, welcome to the bitcoin community. What you can do to ensure bitcoins uptake is to accept bitcoin as payment for goods or services.

There are many different ideologies on this forum, the most common one seems to be Libertarian-ish, while we may dissagree with other ideologies this forum is about bitcoin, the money. So lets stop fussing and get to work.

Show me the money.

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April 06, 2011, 05:21:56 AM
 #35

(adding thread to my watchlist)

(I dont always get new reply notifications, pls send a pm when you think it has happened)

Wanna gimme some BTC for any or no reason? 1FmvtS66LFh6ycrXDwKRQTexGJw4UWiqDX Smiley

The more you believe in Bitcoin, and the more you show you do to other people, the faster the real value will soar!

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em3rgentOrdr
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April 06, 2011, 06:30:44 AM
 #36

You can have all the food you want as long as all the farmers are slaves.......

Or do you mean everyone has to grow food and hand it over to an authority to be allocated ?

It sounds like a great plan......

We can use automated agricultural systems that produce far more food than we can today in a fraction of the land, water and harmful fertilizers and insecticides. This is possible today, but many people are ignorant of this and other technologies.

Well if you or your friends know how to make these automated agricultural systems that produce far more food than we can today in a fraction of the land, water and harmful fertilizers and insecticides, then why don't you be an entrepreneur and do it now?  Create a business plan, share it with some investors, buy some land, do it, and prosper.  Then use the profits to continue to further your goals.
Already being done. But profit is not my end goal.

Awesome!  Now all you have to do is sell those Omega Garden™ Hydrophonics Volkgarden® (Copyright © 2011. All rights reserved.) for bitcoins and also setup a market to buy produce from it in exchange for bitcoins, and you'll make friends with us bitcoiners.  Smiley

BTW, what is with these Resource-Based Economy folks and Intellectual Property?  Wink

I am not personally affiliated with that company, I just pointed it out as an example the most basic implementation of the technology I was referring to. I hope they start accepting bitcoins though, that would be great!

I don't understand your reference to intellectual property or how it relates to RBE proponents.

Haha!  I was trying to be humorous, since I was sure that RBE proponents would be opposed to IP.  Where are the open-source Hydrophonics Gardens?

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
LightRider
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April 06, 2011, 06:39:31 AM
 #37

You can have all the food you want as long as all the farmers are slaves.......

Or do you mean everyone has to grow food and hand it over to an authority to be allocated ?

It sounds like a great plan......

We can use automated agricultural systems that produce far more food than we can today in a fraction of the land, water and harmful fertilizers and insecticides. This is possible today, but many people are ignorant of this and other technologies.

Well if you or your friends know how to make these automated agricultural systems that produce far more food than we can today in a fraction of the land, water and harmful fertilizers and insecticides, then why don't you be an entrepreneur and do it now?  Create a business plan, share it with some investors, buy some land, do it, and prosper.  Then use the profits to continue to further your goals.
Already being done. But profit is not my end goal.

Awesome!  Now all you have to do is sell those Omega Garden™ Hydrophonics Volkgarden® (Copyright © 2011. All rights reserved.) for bitcoins and also setup a market to buy produce from it in exchange for bitcoins, and you'll make friends with us bitcoiners.  Smiley

BTW, what is with these Resource-Based Economy folks and Intellectual Property?  Wink

I am not personally affiliated with that company, I just pointed it out as an example the most basic implementation of the technology I was referring to. I hope they start accepting bitcoins though, that would be great!

I don't understand your reference to intellectual property or how it relates to RBE proponents.

Haha!  I was trying to be humorous, since I was sure that RBE proponents would be opposed to IP.  Where are the open-source Hydrophonics Gardens?

http://www.windowfarms.org/

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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April 06, 2011, 06:58:04 AM
 #38

I don't understand how such home farms could be more effective than agricultural business. Any technology that "home farmers" could use at home, professional farmers can use as well. Except they can use it on a much larger scale and with the help of specialists. I'm better in graphics than farming, so it's more effective for me to spend 2 hours offering Photoshop services and then trade money I earned for food, than on growing/processing the food by myself and to worry if my personal farm will grow enough of it for me.

This looks like going back to medieval age to be honest. The places in the world where there is famine problem are exactly the places with this kind of primitive economy (do it all by yourself). You just exchange a plough with some more fancy tools.

My Bitcoin address: 1DjTsAYP3xR4ymcTUKNuFa5aHt42q2VgSg
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April 06, 2011, 07:25:01 AM
 #39

Haha!  I was trying to be humorous, since I was sure that RBE proponents would be opposed to IP.  Where are the open-source Hydrophonics Gardens?

http://www.windowfarms.org/

That's more like it!  Smiley

I don't understand how such home farms could be more effective than agricultural business. Any technology that "home farmers" could use at home, professional farmers can use as well. Except they can use it on a much larger scale and with the help of specialists. I'm better in graphics than farming, so it's more effective for me to spend 2 hours offering Photoshop services and then trade money I earned for food, than on growing/processing the food by myself and to worry if my personal farm will grow enough of it for me.

This looks like going back to medieval age to be honest. The places in the world where there is famine problem are exactly the places with this kind of primitive economy (do it all by yourself). You just exchange a plough with some more fancy tools.

It is debatable.  I do pay a lot at the grocery store for fresh produce (of course canned or long-term storable food is much cheaper at the grocery store).  So I do think that for fresh vegetables that grow well in/around your home that don't require much maintainace with your natural climate, it is very possible that  this type of urban homesteading is economically practicable.  But no, not always.  I do grow my own tomatoes, rosemary, oregano, sage, and other spices at practically no-cost and no-maintance, which is definitely more cheaper than going to the store to buy spices in some packaged container.  So it depends.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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April 06, 2011, 07:40:51 AM
 #40

If you talk about placing a seed in a fertile soil, in a good climate, with no things like insects/diseases that could destroy it and just let it grow, sure, there is practically no cost. But if you want robots to do stuff for you there will be plenty of costs and maintenance.

Hey, if the cost is so low, maybe you could try to grow more and sell your spices here Smiley

My Bitcoin address: 1DjTsAYP3xR4ymcTUKNuFa5aHt42q2VgSg
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