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Author Topic: A Resource Based Economy  (Read 261584 times)
LightRider
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April 06, 2011, 07:51:26 AM
 #41

I don't understand how such home farms could be more effective than agricultural business. Any technology that "home farmers" could use at home, professional farmers can use as well. Except they can use it on a much larger scale and with the help of specialists. I'm better in graphics than farming, so it's more effective for me to spend 2 hours offering Photoshop services and then trade money I earned for food, than on growing/processing the food by myself and to worry if my personal farm will grow enough of it for me.

This looks like going back to medieval age to be honest. The places in the world where there is famine problem are exactly the places with this kind of primitive economy (do it all by yourself). You just exchange a plough with some more fancy tools.

You're missing the point. I'm not advocating every individual household produce their own food. I am saying that we have the technology to produce food practically everywhere and anywhere people live. We can produce enough food in one sky scraper to feed a significant portion of that city. If we weren't busy stuffing our current buildings with useless activities such as market manipulation and advertisement production, we could instead be producing abundantly for a many more people. We are choosing these other activities because we are kept in subservience to a monetary system that is destructive, wasteful and abusive. There is a better way to conduct ourselves.

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LightRider
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April 06, 2011, 07:57:15 AM
 #42

I think that's enough bashing of lightrider, welcome to the bitcoin community.

Thank you! This is my kind of community!

What you can do to ensure bitcoins uptake is to accept bitcoin as payment for goods or services.

I am selling my van for bitcoins! Check the sig! =)

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April 06, 2011, 07:59:50 AM
 #43

And who will own this one skyscrapper farm? Sounds like a monopoly to me.

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April 06, 2011, 08:01:28 AM
 #44

You're missing the point. I'm not advocating every individual household produce their own food. I am saying that we have the technology to produce food practically everywhere and anywhere people live. We can produce enough food in one sky scraper to feed a significant portion of that city. If we weren't busy stuffing our current buildings with useless activities such as market manipulation and advertisement production, we could instead be producing abundantly for a many more people. We are choosing these other activities because we are kept in subservience to a monetary system that is destructive, wasteful and abusive. There is a better way to conduct ourselves.

If someone builds a sky-scraper farm to feed a significant portion of a city, then economics will lower the cost of living in that city, and then before you know it there are more people moving into that city, and then that skyscraper couldn't supply enough food.  Anyways, reminds me of some cities in foreign countries where it is very common for most apartments to have a small garden on every balcony.  But yeah, sounds like something for an entrepreneur to do, or even some non-governmental community/collective organization could pool their money together and fund such a skyscraper garden.   Again, this is a matter of just investing and doing it, no need for converting all of society into a RBE.  Oh yeah, I forgot, you would have to get by City Zoning Laws and Property Taxes...

How exactly do you advocate "we" arrive at your system.  Sounds like you are advocating some form of central planning to do what is best for "ourselves", but I'm not sure.  How will decisions be made in your society?

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LightRider
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April 06, 2011, 08:27:53 AM
 #45

How will decisions be made in your society?

Decisions are not "made", they are arrived at by using the scientific method and analyzing all relevant and available data.

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April 06, 2011, 08:37:15 AM
 #46

How will decisions be made in your society?

Decisions are not "made", they are arrived at by using the scientific method and analyzing all relevant and available data.

[facepalm]. Huh  Dude, I totally dig the distributed urban farming stuff.  But saying that decisions "are arrived at by using the scientific method and analyzing all relevant and available data" just creeps me out and sounds like some sortof elitist selected group of scientists and engineers will be picked to centrally-plan society and tell me what to do. [/facepalm]

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
LightRider
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April 06, 2011, 08:44:05 AM
 #47

How will decisions be made in your society?

Decisions are not "made", they are arrived at by using the scientific method and analyzing all relevant and available data.

[facepalm]. Huh  Dude, I totally dig the distributed urban farming stuff.  But saying that decisions "are arrived at by using the scientific method and analyzing all relevant and available data" just creeps me out and sounds like some sortof elitist selected group of scientists and engineers will be picked to centrally-plan society and tell me what to do. [/facepalm]

As opposed to the elitist selected group of politicians, lawyers, judges and myriad other bureaucrats who make decisions based on personal whim and opinion who tell you what to do right now?

The real solutions to our problems lie in technical processes, not decision making processes.

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April 06, 2011, 08:49:42 AM
 #48

OK, then how the people, who will be using the scientific method and analyzing all relevant and available data to arrive at decisions what to do with the resources, will be chosen in your society? With democratic voting?

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April 06, 2011, 08:58:28 AM
 #49

Just on the point of growing your own fruit and vegetables, if you do have land (and it takes land to do this) then yes it is a lot cheaper to grow your own than to buy. There are a lot of natural, effective options available to those who want to spend the time.

But there is the issue, time, growing your own food is time/labor intensive. So if you live in the countryside and have 1/4 acre or more you would be surprised how much food you could grow there with enough work. I know from experience, having spent some time "homefarming" before leaving Ireland.

But this doesn't scale, the reason a lot of this is worthwhile for the individual is because they can put in the needed effort to get the most out of every inch of ground. I used to use nettles as liquid fertiliser (stick them in a barrel of water, after a week it smells like cow shit, great for plants, full of nitrogen, pour on the smelly liquid). But this kind of agriculture can't be done automatically on a large scale with only a few farmers.

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LightRider
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April 06, 2011, 09:05:11 AM
 #50

Just on the point of growing your own fruit and vegetables, if you do have land (and it takes land to do this) then yes it is a lot cheaper to grow your own than to buy. There are a lot of natural, effective options available to those who want to spend the time.

But there is the issue, time, growing your own food is time/labor intensive. So if you live in the countryside and have 1/4 acre or more you would be surprised how much food you could grow there with enough work. I know from experience, having spent some time "homefarming" before leaving Ireland.

But this doesn't scale, the reason a lot of this is worthwhile for the individual is because they can put in the needed effort to get the most out of every inch of ground. I used to use nettles as liquid fertiliser (stick them in a barrel of water, after a week it smells like cow shit, great for plants, full of nitrogen, pour on the smelly liquid). But this kind of agriculture can't be done automatically on a large scale with only a few farmers.

This is incorrect. Using automated, indoor vertical hydroponic or aquaponic systems, we can produce more food per acre with less water, no fertilizer, in less time with a significant decrease in human labor. I think you might want to learn about the developments that have been made in this area. My friend recently gave a presentation about this subject which you can watch here and here.

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LightRider
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April 06, 2011, 09:09:20 AM
 #51

OK, then how the people, who will be using the scientific method and analyzing all relevant and available data to arrive at decisions what to do with the resources, will be chosen in your society? With democratic voting?

We focus on the fundamental and basic human needs and work towards meeting those goals. It requires a reorientation of our values to start really trying to solve human problems. This is antithetical to our current society.

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kiba
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April 06, 2011, 02:28:35 PM
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We focus on the fundamental and basic human needs and work towards meeting those goals. It requires a reorientation of our values to start really trying to solve human problems. This is antithetical to our current society.
\
Antithetical to what?

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April 06, 2011, 04:37:21 PM
 #53

I just want to say I have respect for the idea of a resource-based economy. If it can be achieved without coercion or at all is my main question.
LightRider
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April 06, 2011, 06:23:22 PM
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We focus on the fundamental and basic human needs and work towards meeting those goals. It requires a reorientation of our values to start really trying to solve human problems. This is antithetical to our current society.
\
Antithetical to what?

To the dominant opinion in our society that says money and profit should be the ultimate goals in life. Although, I do see that beginning to wane as the obvious fraud and abuse is becoming much more exposed in recent months. At least, I hope it is.

I just want to say I have respect for the idea of a resource-based economy. If it can be achieved without coercion or at all is my main question.

I believe we have the technical capability to do so. Everything we propose that is required to make the system works exists in small scale already for large chain stores, mineral exploration companies, etc. We simply have to choose to work together to utilize everything we have efficiently for the benefit of all people. The competitive nature of our monetary system is not going to allow for that.

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April 06, 2011, 06:24:51 PM
 #55

Isn't money just a universal object of barter? What separates money from people working for resource rights?
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April 06, 2011, 06:28:48 PM
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Isn't money just a universal object of barter? What separates money from people working for resource rights?
my guess would be the distribution of wealth. Money allows for (excessive?) accumulation of wealth.

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LightRider
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April 06, 2011, 06:30:47 PM
 #57

Isn't money just a universal object of barter? What separates money from people working for resource rights?

Money can be manipulated to the benefit of one group over another. Given today's technology, we can significantly reduce human labor in favor of cybernation of mundane, repetitive and dangerous tasks necessary to provide goods and services.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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April 06, 2011, 06:40:52 PM
 #58

Isn't money just a universal object of barter? What separates money from people working for resource rights?

Money can be manipulated to the benefit of one group over another.
Bitcoin solves this.
LightRider
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April 06, 2011, 08:38:25 PM
 #59

Isn't money just a universal object of barter? What separates money from people working for resource rights?

Money can be manipulated to the benefit of one group over another.
Bitcoin solves this.

It benefits the group with access to high technology.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
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April 06, 2011, 08:50:04 PM
 #60

The "we choose" bothers me a lot. Who's "we" and how do they "choose"?

Anyway, I'm currently reading the Zeitgeist Activist Orientation Guide, maybe it will answer my questions. I have to say though, the language used so far tells me that it either never gets to the "how" of organizing this new society, or that it's going to creep the hell out of me. Haven't gotten that far yet, though, so we'll see.

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