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Author Topic: A Resource Based Economy  (Read 261225 times)
shady financier
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June 23, 2011, 11:21:54 PM
 #261

Quick reminder for the last comments, obviously you did not read the thread.

1. TZM != TVP

2. Techno-cult bla bla bla bullshit: don't just put labels, read the material, argue with reason and provide actual criticism or STFU.

Jesus guy, I sat through Zeitgeist Addendum didn't I, wasn't that enough?

I could write criticisms but frankly a glance through history should reveal that people have thought Venus Project thoughts before...

in history...



even in sci-fi...



Many, many times.

There is no Year Zero, if you don't know why already I cannot help you.

By all means dream your irrelevant pristine dreams, and don't let boring stupid tedious quarrelsome humanity get in your way.

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June 24, 2011, 12:07:29 AM
 #262

RBE will have to be forced on people at gun point, but only for a while, until the people are finally free of counter revolutionary thought and its adherents, then a bright new day will dawn!

FA Hayak predicted this kind of thing before;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6lSR62wmSo


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Findeton
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June 24, 2011, 06:32:33 AM
 #263

Zeitgeist Movement and Project Venus are sects/cults. Just letting you know that.

Bitcoin Weekly, bitcoin analysis and commentary

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June 24, 2011, 06:48:34 AM
 #264

Zeitgeist Movement and Project Venus are sects/cults. Just letting you know that.

Thou speaketh heresy!!!

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June 24, 2011, 06:56:36 AM
 #265

Zeitgeist Movement and Project Venus are sects/cults. Just letting you know that.

Neither the Movement nor the Venus Project do not resemble a cult in any meaningful way. We make no fantastic claims nor adhere to any fundamental tenets of belief or spirituality. We propose the use of science to make life better for people. Referring to the people associating with this idea as a cult exposes your ignorance, fear and unwillingness to engage ideas honestly or intellectually.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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June 24, 2011, 07:00:08 AM
 #266

Quick reminder for the last comments, obviously you did not read the thread.

1. TZM != TVP

2. Techno-cult bla bla bla bullshit: don't just put labels, read the material, argue with reason and provide actual criticism or STFU.

Jesus guy, I sat through Zeitgeist Addendum didn't I, wasn't that enough?

I could write criticisms but frankly a glance through history should reveal that people have thought Venus Project thoughts before...

in history...



even in sci-fi...



Many, many times.

There is no Year Zero, if you don't know why already I cannot help you.

By all means dream your irrelevant pristine dreams, and don't let boring stupid tedious quarrelsome humanity get in your way.


It's certainly easy to take down irrelevant strawmen without discussing anything meaningful. Pointing out a failed sociopolitical experiment that in no way resembles the ideas being discussed, or a work of fiction, does little to point out what it is you actually disagree with specifically.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
bittersweet
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June 24, 2011, 07:33:34 AM
 #267

Neither the Movement nor the Venus Project do not resemble a cult in any meaningful way. We make no fantastic claims

Premise of global happyiness for everyone:


One charismatic leader:


Monumental, fantastic visions detached from reality (everything is perfectly organised, huge, futuristic and beautiful)

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June 24, 2011, 09:38:04 AM
 #268

Neither the Movement nor the Venus Project do not resemble a cult in any meaningful way. We make no fantastic claims

Premise of global happyiness for everyone:


One charismatic leader:


Monumental, fantastic visions detached from reality (everything is perfectly organised, huge, futuristic and beautiful)


No one is promised happiness, just an economy that does not perpetuate the artificial mechanisms of competition, greed, fear and ignorance throughout society.

Fresco is not a leader of any sort. He claims constantly that his ideas are subject to change as new technology and ideas emerge.

We are technically capable of producing better cities and utilizing technology that we currently possess to attain such a state.

You continue to be incorrect, please learn more about what you are arguing against.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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June 24, 2011, 10:47:47 AM
 #269

Zeitgeist Movement and Project Venus are sects/cults. Just letting you know that.

Neither the Movement nor the Venus Project do not resemble a cult in any meaningful way. We make no fantastic claims nor adhere to any fundamental tenets of belief or spirituality. We propose the use of science to make life better for people. Referring to the people associating with this idea as a cult exposes your ignorance, fear and unwillingness to engage ideas honestly or intellectually.

You people don't understand the scientific method. You don't have a clue on how it works on social sciences. You also don't understand the actual economic system and you're lied (on every fuckin' Zeitgeist movie) about how it works for the sect to guide you to their misguided conclusions.

You can't use the scientific method if you don't know how to use it. You can't change economy if you don't know how it works.

People entering the Zeitgeist movement or the Venus Project are entering inside a sect/cult and that's a fact.

You people are fools. They fooled you because you didn't read enough books and you didn't think by yourselves. You are so confident just because the group (the cult/sect actually) reinforces your vision.

Yes, the world is fucked up. It always has been.  But it's not fucked up in the way you believe, because you don't understand nor the actual economic system nor the scientific method.

BTW: The Venus Projects advocates a dictatorship. The dictatorship of the people who write the AI that supossedly would substitute every political process, every engineer, every architect and every doctor (yeah I can link you to the actual Venus Project paper that states such NONSENSE).

You people are crazy sect sheeple.

And I'm not trying to convince you of that, you are inside a sect and I don't think you can easily be freed from the sect. I'm just here to warn people who read this thread and haven't entered YOUR CULT/SECT yet.

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June 24, 2011, 12:18:03 PM
 #270

Thought this would be a thread on using a wider variety of metals as commodity money, no such luck.

Venus Project = Communism with a splash of Star Trek?

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June 24, 2011, 07:19:06 PM
 #271

I evidently spoke too prematurely when I stated that people in this forum were reasonable, capable of understanding science, and to challenge outdated beliefs. Some of you are, but the recent comments just prove that many are still caught in the net of their own projections.

So, let me state a few things again, because some of you did not read/did not undertand them.

1. TVP != TZM. So, stop associating the two. Venus Project bla bla bla, therefore TZM... is a non sequitur.

2. Saying "you are a cult" bla bla bla "this is utopia" bla bla bla "you guys are idiots" bla bla bla "sheeple" bla bla bla "but I have no time to explain any claim I make" doesn't prove your point.

It just proves that you can't argue. It proves that you can only shout at people, hoping they will get mad at you.

Roll Eyes
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June 24, 2011, 08:01:07 PM
 #272

Resource based economy = No prices (all resources are free)
All resources being free = Potential mass waste of precious resources
Potential mass waste of precious resources = Require central planners in order to prevent wasting precious resources.

Now, the big question is:

Where do you find the angels to organize society for us? Would you trust me to make decisions for you?

Probably not.

I've had a venus project proponent debate with me, he eventually admitted that it would require central planning (something I didn't see on the website), and he's stuck on that simple question.
anderxander
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June 24, 2011, 11:01:19 PM
 #273


You misinterpreted. It is a simple recognition of the fact that as education rises, the natural consequence is decline in population, we see that in every civilised country. It is by no means a value imposed, nor would anyone be compelled not to have children (as it happens in totalitarian regimes like China).

What Joseph referred to was his own view of life, he said that, for him, it would be irresponsible to bring a child on this planet without thinking of the consequences, he didn't say people shouldn't have children.

As education rises the "natural" consequence is population decline? Prove it.

Correlation Does Not Imply Causation.

This also ignores a whole body of social and political theory and thought on the education system and its purpose in society.

There are more "educated" people on the planet that have been "educated" by the school system than in history. Yet the population continues to explode.

As Findeton said,


You people don't understand the scientific method. You don't have a clue on how it works on social sciences. You also don't understand the actual economic system and you're lied (on every fuckin' Zeitgeist movie) about how it works for the sect to guide you to their misguided conclusions.

You can't use the scientific method if you don't know how to use it. You can't change economy if you don't know how it works.

You people are fools. They fooled you because you didn't read enough books and you didn't think by yourselves. You are so confident just because the group (the cult/sect actually) reinforces your vision.

Yes, the world is fucked up. It always has been.  But it's not fucked up in the way you believe, because you don't understand nor the actual economic system nor the scientific method.


Some of you are, but the recent comments just prove that many are still caught in the net of their own projections.


It just proves that you can't argue. It proves that you can only shout at people, hoping they will get mad at you.

Roll Eyes


And you're not caught in the net of your own ridiculous projections and social psuedo-science?

The hope is you'll go away because you're annoying and just keep blindly defending your ideas with anything you can pull out of your ass. Your whole movement is a joke and you only jeep giving it a worse reputation by continuing to post. Shut up and go do something productive.

 

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June 25, 2011, 06:34:14 AM
 #274

Venus Project = Communism with a splash of Star Trek?
No.

You people don't understand the scientific method. You don't have a clue on how it works on social sciences. You also don't understand the actual economic system and you're lied (on every fuckin' Zeitgeist movie) about how it works for the sect to guide you to their misguided conclusions.
Baseless assertion, ad hominem attack, baseless assertion with no supporting evidence, and another ad hominem attack.

You can't use the scientific method if you don't know how to use it. You can't change economy if you don't know how it works.
Tautology, unsupported irrelevant statement of ignorance.

People entering the Zeitgeist movement or the Venus Project are entering inside a sect/cult and that's a fact.
Repeated baseless assertion with no supporting evidence, again highlighting your ignorance.

You people are fools. They fooled you because you didn't read enough books and you didn't think by yourselves. You are so confident just because the group (the cult/sect actually) reinforces your vision.
Ad hominem attack, baseless assertion from ignorance combined with ad hominem attack, baseless assertion based on previous baseless assertions that again highlight your ignorance.

Quote
Yes, the world is fucked up. It always has been.  But it's not fucked up in the way you believe, because you don't understand nor the actual economic system nor the scientific method.
Assertion, assertion, baseless assertion combined with ad hominem attack.

Quote
BTW: The Venus Projects advocates a dictatorship. The dictatorship of the people who write the AI that supossedly would substitute every political process, every engineer, every architect and every doctor (yeah I can link you to the actual Venus Project paper that states such NONSENSE).
Baseless assertion with no supporting evidence despite being hinted at and strangely not provided, again highlighting your ignorance.

Quote
You people are crazy sect sheeple.
Ad hominem attack.

Quote
And I'm not trying to convince you of that, you are inside a sect and I don't think you can easily be freed from the sect. I'm just here to warn people who read this thread and haven't entered YOUR CULT/SECT yet.
Ignorant statement and finally the stated desire to manipulate others into believing what you want them to without providing any evidence for your claims or providing any argument worthy of discussion or attention.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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June 25, 2011, 06:39:56 AM
 #275

Would you trust me to make decisions for you?

Decisions are not made, they are arrived at using information and data derived through the scientific method and in accordance with the goals of sustainability and providing a high quality of life for all people. Central planning is not required because reality is decentralized, so our methods and systems would also have to be decentralized in order to deal with it.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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June 25, 2011, 06:48:22 AM
 #276

There are more "educated" people on the planet that have been "educated" by the school system than in history. Yet the population continues to explode.

Today's education system and society at large is no measure of a relevant education. Our values are distorted, causing aberrant behavior that has negative consequences. With a relevant education, people would understand that a population cannot grow beyond the resources of a finite system such as our planet.

The hope is you'll go away because you're annoying and just keep blindly defending your ideas with anything you can pull out of your ass. Your whole movement is a joke and you only jeep giving it a worse reputation by continuing to post. Shut up and go do something productive.

At least you've admitted that your goal is not to have a productive or intellectually honest discussion or argument, but to cease any talk about these ideas at all. For someone so insistent that other people be productive, that seems futile and unproductive to me. Thank you for being honest about your goal though.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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June 25, 2011, 07:50:28 AM
 #277

Greetings,

I was very excited to learn about the Bitcoin currency several months ago, and I am very pleased to see it growing. I am part of an organization called the Zeitgeist Movement, who advocates a resource based economy. We are interested in seeing a radical redesign of society and an associated shift in values. We understand that the major cause of human suffering today is the current monetary system and the warped values and corrupt behavior inherent in its implementation. We know that we can provide food, water, shelter and a highly technological life style to every one on the planet if we chose to do so. What generally prevents us from doing so is the idea of money, which paralyzes us as a society, in terms of technological advancement, quality of education and healthcare, and a sick culture that encourages us to be competitive and cruel to our fellow human beings.

Knowing and understanding the underlying mechanics of a monetary system is fundamental to not being abused by it. Currently, the vast majority of people are unaware of the destructive and unfair nature of our current fractional reserve banking system, and that makes them vulnerable to all the abuses we see today. Poverty, war, crime and hunger are the result of inequitable economic practices, and will not significantly change until we end or significantly alter our subservience to this and associated institutions. I believe Bitcoin would make for an ideal transition currency until a full RBE can be implemented.

An RBE is basically the realization that there are no arbitrary restrictions on reality. Being bound to the imaginary rules of a monetary game, we limit how much we can accomplish and provide for each other. If we declared all of the earth's resources as common heritage for all the world's people, and used the methods of science to construct and provide all of life's necessities for all people, then there would be considerable reduction in hunger, crime, war and poverty, not to mention unnecessary suffering due to lack of access of medical care or inadequate educational opportunities. If people were given all that were necessary to survive, they could devote themselves to the benefit of all man kind. These would be the values of a resource based economy, not the competitive and acquisitive value based behavior we see today.

I encourage you to learn more about these ideas if they interest you. I hope to support the bitcoin system as long as I am able, and I hope to see it become a dominant and thriving ecosystem in the months and years to come. Thank you for your time and attention.


A comment to Bitcoin Uncensored Blog.
" A Paradigm Shift ". This is the most suitable definition for what is actually going on in the "global village".

But I have something to say about the fact that Bitcoin is a paradigm itself.

For those who are not familiar with the word Paradigm:

A Paradigm is a pattern or model, and if it is later discarded and a different pattern or
model replaces it, we call this process a “paradigm shift.” An example of this is
the Ptolemaic system of the universe in which the earth is at the center of the solar
system, which was replaced by the heliocentric system of Copernicus.

Let's make it more simple.

There is something established that we take for granted. We keep on using it every day. By time we realize that there are some anomalies. If we stop thinking and we analyze these anomalies, we would eventually come to the conclusion that what was taken for granted is wrong and that there is a different way of doing.

The actual "shift" happens when the majority of the people agrees on the new way of doing which of course needs to be demonstrated to be true and workable.

It is worth noticing that The Ptolemaic paradigm of the universe was not replaced so much
by the fact that it was wrong but by the fact that anomalies observed eventually caused the entire paradigm to shift to a new one. A new pattern or model.

Therefore, the way financial transactions are carried out today is our Pattern and observations shows that there are anomalies. But this does not means that the old pattern is wrong at all!! It simply means that nowadays (and only nowadays ), transactions can be done in a different and more efficient way. Thus, we have the paradigm shift.

Bitcoin being merely a tool that might implement the shift.

It is my opinion that the shift might occur but not in the near future and that Bitcoin "economy" needs several adjustments before it could become a catalyst in this contest.

Signed: Twitter @Michele1940 Blog: pointapp.blogspot.com ; http://twitpic.com/photos/Michele1940
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June 25, 2011, 08:54:08 AM
 #278

Quote
BTW: The Venus Projects advocates a dictatorship. The dictatorship of the people who write the AI that supossedly would substitute every political process, every engineer, every architect and every doctor (yeah I can link you to the actual Venus Project paper that states such NONSENSE).
Baseless assertion with no supporting evidence despite being hinted at and strangely not provided, again highlighting your ignorance.

No supporting evidence?

http://www.thevenusproject.com/images/stories/a-designingthefuturee-book.pdf

PAGE 43:

Quote
(title of the chapter: "Machine Intelligence")

When we use automation and cybernation more extensively, not only
industrial workers, but also most professionals can be replaced by machines.
Even today, the most visionary writers and futurists have difficulty accepting
the possibility of robots replacing surgeons, engineers, top management, airline pilots, and other professionals. Machines can easily replace humans in
government and in the management of world affairs. This does not represent
a take-over by machines, as some people might fear. Instead, the
gradual transfer of decision-making to machine intelligence is the next
phase of social evolution.

So yeah, I'm right and I'm proving it with facts. Too bad for you, now you'll have to create some kind of stupid excuse, as member of the cult/sect.

You are a member of a cult/sect. No argument, that's a fact, I just proved it. I'm here not to convince you to free yourself from the cult but to warn people not to enter the cult/sect.

Bitcoin Weekly, bitcoin analysis and commentary

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June 25, 2011, 08:58:44 AM
 #279

Quote
BTW: The Venus Projects advocates a dictatorship. The dictatorship of the people who write the AI that supossedly would substitute every political process, every engineer, every architect and every doctor (yeah I can link you to the actual Venus Project paper that states such NONSENSE).
Baseless assertion with no supporting evidence despite being hinted at and strangely not provided, again highlighting your ignorance.

No supporting evidence?

http://www.thevenusproject.com/images/stories/a-designingthefuturee-book.pdf

PAGE 43:

Quote
(title of the chapter: "Machine Intelligence")

When we use automation and cybernation more extensively, not only
industrial workers, but also most professionals can be replaced by machines.
Even today, the most visionary writers and futurists have difficulty accepting
the possibility of robots replacing surgeons, engineers, top management, airline pilots, and other professionals. Machines can easily replace humans in
government and in the management of world affairs. This does not represent
a take-over by machines, as some people might fear. Instead, the
gradual transfer of decision-making to machine intelligence is the next
phase of social evolution.

So yeah, I'm right and I'm proving it with facts. Too bad for you, now you'll have to create some kind of stupid excuse, as member of the cult/sect.

You are a member of a cult/sect. No argument, that's a fact, I just proved it. I'm here not to convince you to free yourself from the cult but to warn people not to enter the cult/sect.

Honestly, there is no point arguing with this people. I have tried in other forums and they keep repeating the mantra. Logic does not work on them. They have a dream and they will follow no matter what reality says. Its sad, but I guess some humans work that way.
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June 25, 2011, 09:09:12 AM
 #280

Quote
BTW: The Venus Projects advocates a dictatorship. The dictatorship of the people who write the AI that supossedly would substitute every political process, every engineer, every architect and every doctor (yeah I can link you to the actual Venus Project paper that states such NONSENSE).
Baseless assertion with no supporting evidence despite being hinted at and strangely not provided, again highlighting your ignorance.

No supporting evidence?

http://www.thevenusproject.com/images/stories/a-designingthefuturee-book.pdf

PAGE 43:

Quote
(title of the chapter: "Machine Intelligence")

When we use automation and cybernation more extensively, not only
industrial workers, but also most professionals can be replaced by machines.
Even today, the most visionary writers and futurists have difficulty accepting
the possibility of robots replacing surgeons, engineers, top management, airline pilots, and other professionals. Machines can easily replace humans in
government and in the management of world affairs. This does not represent
a take-over by machines, as some people might fear. Instead, the
gradual transfer of decision-making to machine intelligence is the next
phase of social evolution.

So yeah, I'm right and I'm proving it with facts. Too bad for you, now you'll have to create some kind of stupid excuse, as member of the cult/sect.

You are a member of a cult/sect. No argument, that's a fact, I just proved it. I'm here not to convince you to free yourself from the cult but to warn people not to enter the cult/sect.

When they invented the calculator, calculators didn't take over math. Machines help us do things better and more efficiently. You also conveniently ignored the very text you quoted in which he said that this wouldn't be a machine dictatorship. Your ignorance and associated fear are propelling you to continue this nonsense. Please attempt to employ your critical thinking skills before replying.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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