Bitcoin Forum
December 08, 2016, 06:20:59 PM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 [27] 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 ... 124 »
  Print  
Author Topic: A Resource Based Economy  (Read 261275 times)
Enky1974
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 250



View Profile
July 06, 2011, 08:52:36 AM
 #521

RBE is a joke.  And a bad one.  I've heard all the documentation/movies and read similar-minded books on the topic.  The system they propose doesn't actually exist, it's a cloud kingdom that is a bunch of euphonic slogans and fluff.  It isn't a system, just a bunch of ideals incomplete in their overall construction and relation to one another, like an animal with no vital organs.  But the goals of said system are laudable and the frustrating part is that they are largely achievable but it requires massive political action and an understanding of the economic groundwork that could be laid to achieve it.  BTW, the mythological "Free Market" you people are fond of believing in around here won't give you these goals; only an educated, organized, fighting class of people that take the reigns of the Political Economy into their own hands can do this.  But you need an actual program that can be implemented.  Do you have such a program?  If not then quit wasting your time with fantasies such as this.



+1

RBE is good for dreaming, like most zeitgest fans do:)

__________________________________
My Blog at http://btctrading.wordpress.com/ | « O Fortuna,velut Luna statu variabilis, semper crescis aut decrescis »
1481221259
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481221259

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481221259
Reply with quote  #2

1481221259
Report to moderator
1481221259
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481221259

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481221259
Reply with quote  #2

1481221259
Report to moderator
1481221259
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481221259

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481221259
Reply with quote  #2

1481221259
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481221259
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481221259

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481221259
Reply with quote  #2

1481221259
Report to moderator
1481221259
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481221259

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481221259
Reply with quote  #2

1481221259
Report to moderator
Michele1940
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56



View Profile WWW
July 06, 2011, 09:12:54 AM
 #522

 There are a lot of talk going on around the world about virtual currency such as Bitcoins and others.

Many are arguing that virtual currency is a reality and that it's here to stay. I personally agree with this proposition but virtual currency shouldn't be used as an alternative store of value asset only.

Bitcoin is probably the most known and talked virtual currency in these days.  From what we can see in the exchange markets, that have been created to trade Bitcoin, there is a lot of daily activity in the trading environment.

What we cannot see is a similar activity in the retail environment either for on-line or real world transactions. Aside from a few examples, this virtual currency does not seem to be taking off.

What are the reasons for this ? Well there are many.

First of all, aside from the early adapters , "mining" Bitcoin for the individual has become a difficult task.
This means that if you want to have some of this Bitcoin , you can exchange them for your fiat currency on the exchange markets. So you have to take some of your stored "real money" and use them to store them again into Bitcoin. Unless, of course,  you have a real intention to use this Bitcoin to buy something that you like and you need/want to buy.

Second, why do you have to convert your "real money" into Bitcoin if you need/want to buy something ? Because Bitcoin allows you and the seller to have a cost free transaction in the same way you would have if you would hand over your cash money to the vendor.  In addition handling cash money is also a cost both for you and the vendor.

Third, is the vendor giving you any additional advantage if you pay in Bitcoin like, for example, a small discount ?  Not that I am aware of. But might be possible that same are doing it. What I know for sure is that if you pay with real cash money instead of your credit card, you have a very high possibility to get a small discount if you dare asking for it.

Fourth, there are the exchange markets that makes the conversion rate change and it is difficult for you and the vendor to forecast its future value. You may exchange your "real money"  into Bitcoin today or you can accept a payment in Bitcoin as a vendor today at a fixed current rate and find out a few days later that the value of Bitcoin has dropped. Or it has increased. This uncertainty, surely complicates the matter even more. Unless you see into Bitcoin a form of investment in the hope that its value will go sky high someday.

Many might argue that even your "real money" are subject to the same process described above.
All fiat money of course are subjected to inflation and deflation. And the conversion rate between them vary daily. Some might also argue that fiat money might collapse and that you would end up having a bank account filled up with numbers that have no purchase value at all.

So, it seems that what we need for a virtual currency to become a usable currency is a sort of stability of its value. In order to accomplish this, we have to reduce the trading and increase the actual use of our beloved virtual currency.

There are many that think that a world without any sort of monetary system would be a much better world. This is the key concept of a Resource Based Economy. It is my opinion that the present monetary system is just a paradigm, a model. Therefore it is subjected to a shift. And a Global Virtual Currency ( not necessarily Bitcoin ) could be a good entry point for the shift to occur. But it needs to be available for everybody for a Resource Based Economy to take place !!

I am working on this. Stay tuned.

Signed: Twitter @Michele1940 Blog: pointapp.blogspot.com ; http://twitpic.com/photos/Michele1940
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
July 06, 2011, 10:50:20 AM
 #523

I'm not talking about an unequivocal definition, I'm talking about morals. No matter how many research they make on human happiness, spiritual health and the like: I will still want to measure and seek my own happiness myself.
I just don't care what the experts say is good, because I don't believe in good. Talking about experts on happiness and quality of life reminds me the Inquisition and its moral experts.    
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and his mental health was enforced.

You are discussing the sex of the angels.

Do you agree that starve to death, being enslaved, drink polluted water, have no house and no access to education is not a desirable thing?

It's certainly a not desirable thing for me. I can't tell if it's not desirable for everyone in the world and for those still to come.
If some rare monks decide they want to starve to reach the nirvana, I wouldn't coerce them to stop their death.
Anyway, the critical point here is education. I don't want a centrally planned education. I don't want a designed culture.
The dog whisperer educating stable dogs comes to mind.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
The degree of freedom will be decided? That doesn't sound like letting the free market be.
The free market doesn't put any limit of what can be produced/consumed beyond the limits of nature and the imagination of the producers.

The free market doesn't care about the limits of nature.

And that is its fundamental flaw.

The free market can't surpass the limits of nature.
The free market cares about what people cares. If people care about sustainability, the market will.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
In the RBE, some form of government (again, I don't care how efficient and democratic your new system will theoretically be, if is not the private sector the one that feeds the world through trade and charity, then is the public sector, period) will set the limits.

You keep thinking anthropocentrically.

I think you're more anthropocentric than me.
You claim that a whole race can be sustained through central planning and science and interact harmoniously with such a complex system as the biosphere.
I don't even believe nature has immutable laws.
I've had tons of laughs thanks to scientists talking about the universal constant and math being the language of god.
I'm definitely not anthropocentric.

You seem to avoid all the questions about how the RBE would coerce people to avoid wasting resources.
RBE needs some form of government to make decisions if there's no private property.
With private property, each owner decides the allocation of his resources.    

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
How arrogant.

My soul is arrogant because I live in the clouds with other geniuses of the past.
Yes I think I'm a genius. Still I show more humility than you.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
The planet decides what is the limit. Not me, not you, not anyone else.

Not the free market nor the RBE.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
As I said before, programmed obsolescence has the prerequisite of a monopoly/cartel.

All companies do that, because it would not be profitable for them otherwise, and they could not survive.

Not all the companies do that. Some of them rely on the production of durable goods for their survival.
Others even rely on producing environment friendly products. Others produce free software for profit.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
In a competitive market, if people demand durable products, they're the ones that will be produced.

Nice wish. Too bad it doesn't happen, you are talking about a utopia.

What proof do you need to admit that the market tends to produce what people demand?

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
Also, the short-term thinking that interest imposes us makes people care less about durability.

Goodmorning sunshine!

It's called "profit motive".

We've identified a thing neither of us like: short-term thinking.
You think is motivated by profits and I blame interest.
I've already provide an example (the tree metaphor) that shows how interest affects financing to promote the short term over the long run.
If you want to change my mind, you have to use the logic rather than keep on repeating your claim.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
Without interest and capital yields, maybe the term capitalism is not very accurate.
Ripple and freicoin would disable interest within a free-market.
That's why I think programmed obsolescence is not a problem caused by the free market.

Could you elaborate on that, and explain how freicoin plus free market would address the two questions I posed?

As shown in the tree metaphor, removing interest would suppress the short term thinking inherent to our current monetary system.
Interest also introduces an element of artificial scarcity of capital. The capitals of the same type compete with each other so the more capital of the same type there is, the lower capital yields are.
If you have a capital yield of zero, that means that you've gained from the use of the capital the same that you have invested building it.
But with interest, the production of a certain kind of capital "stops" when the capital has an inferior yield that money itself.
Money is just a symbol of value, doesn't produce anything in the real world just by being and shouldn't have yield on its own.
I'm talking about the basic interest and not the costs of banks. They provide a service and they'd keep on doing it with free money.    
Profits tend to zero by competition.
With capital yields and profits near zero, everything is for wages.
We cannot achieve "full employment" today because the same restriction applies to human capital and because of minimum wage laws and other regulations.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
Just a counter-example that proves your point wrong. A man working on sustainability for profit. Just like solar panels producers, permaculture advocates...

What those guys produce is 10 times less efficient that what could be achieved.

Permaculture is sustainable because it works with closed cycles.
Sure they can add automation, but I think they're pretty efficient without it.
I expect arduino to bring cheap automation tools to permaculture.
With hydroponics, you're using resources that comes from some place outside the system.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
If you think that sustainability and profit are compatible, you have never worked in a multinational corporation, you don't know how it works, and you've never talked to the guys at the top.

I'm currently working in a multinational corporation. Again, what makes you think you know me?
The mouths of the guys at the top are full of sustainability, not because they give a shit, but because it sells.
And yes sustainability and profit are compatible, I just need an example to prove that.
Do you think solar panel production is compatible with sustainability?

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
I have. I talked to industry professionals, biochemists, engineers and managers of multi-billion dollar corporations, and they confirm 100% what I stated.

Appeal to authority again.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
You have nice wishes, but they clash with the real world.

I think the same about you.
We have many similar wishes, but we have different views about economics.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
For more private initiatives on sustainability, I recommend you the youtube channel "peak moment".

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%22peak+movement%22&aq=f

Biceps and bibles? o_O

I don't get it. I'm not religious, I hate gyms and I like that channel.
What you don't like about the channel?
Oh, they prefer reuse rather than building all brand new efficient, like new cities. Is it what you don't like?

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
Quote
States are coerced by corporations and then states coerce any other corporation/individual that tries to compete. What I claim is that private property and free market is not enough for monopolies to appear. Coercion is needed.

Play it as you like, it's because of profit that all this happens. Try to take you hands off your keyboard, stop thinking, close your eyes, pause, then think again.

You might get it. Smiley

That's your answer? No coercion is needed, is all because of profit?

I'll reverse it then. How do you propose to avoid corporations coerce governments? And what do you think it's reason they do so, if it's not for profit and power?

I would remove the incentive for corporations to corrupt governments. The reason, as you said is profit and power. Corporations access this power through governments.
The more governments regulate, the more advantage from the regulations big companies get.
The more big public projects, the more resources go to the big companies that can develop them.
So to reduce the damage of corruption, I would reduce the size and power of the state.  

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
Have you been reading Gesell's book? Anything about austrian economics? Anything about economics at all?

I read several books about economics, both when I was in college and also recently, including some of the writings you posted in the thread.

Which of the writings I posted?
Anything about austrian economics?

Just to know what can assume you'll understand.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
I have yet to read Gesell, and I will.

Good.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Still, you haven't yet explained how any profit-based system tackles the two issues I posted earlier.

I successfully answered dozens of you questions. You were the only one to admit a couple of times when the point I made was correct, all the others just went over the next sentence, or the next topic, trying to find a single line to debate/debunk, among the hundreds of sentences that I wrote, which were correct.

There's some questions that I don't think you've answered properly. Don't know what you mean by successfully in this context.
I've answered all of your questions and if you think I've not do it properly, you can reformulate the question like I've been doing.  
I have admitted that you were making a correct point more than a couple of times.
As I've proved in this forum, I'm not afraid to change my mind.
The fact that you didn't change your mind in this discussion doesn't mean you're correct.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Then, I ask for two, very simple things, and nobody can give a satisfactory answer that stands the grounds of logic and evidence.

I rest my case.

I've already answered those a few times, but you're not satisfied. You can try to prove my answers as incorrect (as you're doing) or reformulate your questions (as you're doing).
This remember me two questions I made. Please let me know if I got your answers wrong.
 
1) Do you believe that absolute values exist?

No. But I still want public education, I still think there's an absolute definition of mental health and happiness. I still think science can decide the right amount of people on earth, I still believe in self-evident distribution of resources and I still don't like private property and free trade.

2) Do you reject free trade (and thus freedom)?

No. But it will disappear on its own. When people receive what they need for free and are educated properly, they don't want anything else.
Although free trade leads to the destruction of the planet and the starvation of the masses, I don't think TZM should fight against free trade because it will just disappear when robots are the only workers and people are educated to not want what they don't need.  

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
It woulnd't be for free. That's impossible. Some resources would be used, even if they're not traded for money.

Don't you see what you are saying?

There are only two real things, the rest is bullshit: resources and time that people are willing to dedicate. We have both, and many people will work for free (as it has been shown). Put the two things together.

It's not that difficult.

That's it. You can't feed the world for free. You will use natural resources and people's time.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
It's because it would destroy the fucking market, that's why. People won't have to enslave themselves, and will have time to read some books, think for themselves and realise that this system is fucked up.

That's why.

If it were for free, you'd do it immediately despite the "fucking market".

Only if enough people had the right values and culture. And they don't.

So you could build the RBE right now but you're waiting for the people of the world to reach the right values?

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
That's why we want to change the culture.

I want to change the culture too. But you don't need public education (coercion) to change culture.  

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
Sure. In a system of universal access and infinite resources private property would be nonsense.

Corrige: in a system of universal access and finite resources private property would be very impractical and useless for most goods.

No. With finite resources private property is very important. Public property results in the tragedy of the commons.
Private property is compatible with sharing. You're confusing individual property with private property.
I own some tools and games collectively with friends. But we've decided to do so, nobody forced us.
I'm not against voluntary communes.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
I just don't believe such a system is possible. If you mean universal access only to food, we still private property for the rest.

Let's start with universal access to the necessities: food, water, house, transportation, education.

You mean the public sector takes care of it. I'm against.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Then you can have all the private property you want, I don't care, as long as it's sustainable.

Quote
We can't do anything beyond the carrying capacity of the earth just because it's physically impossible.

Ahahahahahahahahahahah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_Debt_Day

We already passed it, a long time ago.

I was including energy reserves such as oil. Maybe I should have said just capacity instead of carrying capacity.
Interesting concept though.
There will be also a day when these "natural savings" won't influence our management of resources. We will manage them within closed cycles.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
You mean without reducing the future carrying capacity. You mean thinking in the long term.

Any other way to think about it?

Yes, in the short term as we do today.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
The Earth is a system with cycles.

A very complex system complex system indeed, that you claim can be managed centrally. Who's the anthropocentric?

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
Science can tell us a lot more about soil destruction today, but that technical attempt to end starvation has only lead us to an increased population size and to soil destruction.

Talk to a biochemist, please, or read some scientific literature.

What am I asking them?
Can you just tell me why you think I'm wrong instead of trying to discredit me?

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
Profit does not require growth. Not even monetary profit. You can make profit, for example, by producing the same good in a more efficient way. By downsizing your company.

Exactly! Technological unemployment.

So, the more efficient you are, the less people will be able to work, the more will starve in a system without universal access.

Don't you see the complete idiocy of this wretched system?

Technological unemployment is another point of disagreement between us.
I think it's just temporal and people will just find another valuable ways to serve one another.
I'll make a prediction about a recently released technology.
Google's Accessory Development Kit (on open source hardware based on arduino and developed for profit) will enable a revolution in automation and will create thousands of new jobs.    

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
Many people will starve to death during the coming energy crises (unless we make a disruptive discovery or invention, like economic nuclear fusion).

No, we won't. We already have disruptive technologies, but underused and underdeveloped due to the profit-structure.

You know what will happen if we discover nuclear fusion? Patents, corporations, same shit over and over, prices just a litte lower than the competition, huge profits.

Fuck that. Let's liberate humanity from this nonsense.

Quote
If we don't have a pricing mechanism, many more people will starve.

False.

Quote
I can't accept that. Billions of deaths just to prove (again) that central planning doesn't work? Fuck that.

False.

False.

In Boole's algebra:
-(-If we don't have a pricing mechanism, many more people will starve) = If we don't have a pricing mechanism, many more people will starve.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
We don't have to speculate, billions are starving right fucking now thanks to your beloved free market.

Time to change, for the better.

We don't have a free market right now. There's more regulations today than ever in history.
The monetary system is flawed and managed by "financial experts" (and indirectly by governments).
Our current monetary system is a great example of a non free market.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
But to replace the exponential monetary system you don't want any monetary system at all.
What qualities should have a monetary system for the transition period?

As I stated, what I care about is universal access of basic necessities and sustainability. You can have the monetary system of your choice within those boundaries, I don't care. Smiley

It doesn't matter if the monetary system is flawed and leads to unsustainability?

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
Can RBE lead us the "good" path? You've already agreed with me that there's no such thing as good.

SECOND TIME:
You are discussing the sex of the angels.

I'm not. I'm just pointing out the conflicts between the absence of absolute values and your proposed central management of resources.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Do you agree that starve to death, being enslaved, drink polluted water, have no house and no access to education is not a desirable thing?

Quote
On the subject of feeding the people of the third world, I would prefer to give them the rod rather than the fish.

5 words: "Confessions of an economic hitman".

Do you agree or not? What I'm going to find in that book?

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote
Also stop abusing them instead of "trying to help" them.
Africa was pretty well fed before our governments (and then our macro-corporations) went there to coerce its peoples.

You are amazing! That's exactly right. And... you know why they did it? That's right! Yes! PROFIT!

Yes, power and profit.
And rapers do rape looking for sex, but that doesn't make sex a bad thing.
What Africa needs is we stop our coercion, not that we stop to seek profits.  

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Quote from: jtimon
"We're in a free market and we have plenty of problems. Therefore, free market causes a lot of problems."

That's not a logical reasoning even if it seems to you.
Furthermore, the premise is false. We're not in a free market, there's more regulations than have ever been.
You've not provided any evidences that prove the free market is incompatible with economic and social sustainability, just examples of non sustainable actions and industries.

Non sustainable actions and industries act on the sole motive of making profit, and that's why they act this way.

So, if you can prove that the "free market" does not seek profit, you may have a point.

Many people in the free market seek monetary profits, I don't deny that.
I deny that's the cause of problems you mentioned.
We're not on a free market and if we where and we still had problems, you still couldn't assure (logically) that the free market is the cause of those problems.
If I kill 40 people within a free market, you can't blame the free market.

Quote from: 4v4l0n42 link=topic=5373.msg326865#msg326865
Anyway, you haven't answered my question. I'll ask again:

Quote
Against all available evidence that shows exactly what i am saying, tell me how that could be possible.

Please, illuminate me.

I've already answered your two questions and you've replied "evidences all around say you're wrong", "Is evident that I'm right, if you can't see it, you've not been properly educated".
What part of my logic is wrong?
What premises are false?
Don't confuse examples and data with proved conclusions.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
July 06, 2011, 10:58:21 AM
 #524

Oh I see. You searched the wrong words. Here's the channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/peakmoment?blend=3&ob=5

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
Michele1940
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56



View Profile WWW
July 06, 2011, 11:21:32 AM
 #525

This discussion is dealing only with the effects of the actual global system. Anyone has taken into consideration the causes ? That would save me a LOT or reading....Thanks.

Signed: Twitter @Michele1940 Blog: pointapp.blogspot.com ; http://twitpic.com/photos/Michele1940
Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1624


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
July 06, 2011, 02:32:47 PM
 #526

This discussion is dealing only with the effects of the actual global system. Anyone has taken into consideration the causes ? That would save me a LOT or reading....Thanks.

Two words: misaligned incentives.

benjamindees
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1288


View Profile
July 07, 2011, 11:55:02 AM
 #527

I have two better words:  negative externalities.

Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics
4v4l0n42
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 98


View Profile
July 07, 2011, 12:06:36 PM
 #528

OK, I though a lot about the last posts, and I think it all boils down to this.

Facts
Every living system and living ecosystem on Earth is in a state of decline, due to our economic activities. There is no debate about that, every scientific paper published in the last 30 years confirms it. It's abundantly clear that a different approach is to be put in place.

Proposals
I propose we try to approach the problems scientifically, evaluate what causes negative retroactions, try to prevent them through education, non violent and non coercive manners, strive for a dynamic equilibrium with nature, use a systemic approach and adapt our ways of lives so that they are aligned with what the planet can provide, in order to ensure our long term survival.

Free market advocates believe in individual freedoms above all, and that somehow an invisible hand, guided by god-like unprovable entity, will fix everything.

I am seeing this wrong? (Of course you are going to say yes straight away, but think about it for a few days, then come back and tell me).
Michele1940
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56



View Profile WWW
July 07, 2011, 02:42:48 PM
 #529

This discussion is dealing only with the effects of the actual global system. Anyone has taken into consideration the causes ? That would save me a LOT or reading....Thanks.

Two words: misaligned incentives.
I have two better words:  negative externalities.

OK, I though a lot about the last posts, and I think it all boils down to this.

Facts
Every living system and living ecosystem on Earth is in a state of decline, due to our economic activities. There is no debate about that, every scientific paper published in the last 30 years confirms it. It's abundantly clear that a different approach is to be put in place.

Proposals
I propose we try to approach the problems scientifically, evaluate what causes negative retroactions, try to prevent them through education, non violent and non coercive manners, strive for a dynamic equilibrium with nature, use a systemic approach and adapt our ways of lives so that they are aligned with what the planet can provide, in order to ensure our long term survival.

Free market advocates believe in individual freedoms above all, and that somehow an invisible hand, guided by god-like unprovable entity, will fix everything.

I am seeing this wrong? (Of course you are going to say yes straight away, but think about it for a few days, then come back and tell me).

Well here we have : misaligned incentives, negative externalities that cause negative retro actions. Can't the common cause of all this be called greediness ?

Seeking for a dynamic equilibrium with nature is definitely a good path to follow. Since from nature itself we can actually see that there are no misaligned incentives, no negative externalities and , therefore no greediness. Nature appears to evolve by itself in a way that the whole ecosystem is always in a state of development ( evolution ) rather than declining.

Economic activities are not a natural process. But, by all means, are perpetuated by Humans since " Illo Tempore ".

Humans are surely part of the natural ecosystem of this planet. And surely denote a much higher degree of awareness as compared to any other natural kingdom. Also they denote a freewill that allows them, for example, to elaborate economic activities able to "alter" the whole ecosystem.

In seeking for this "miraculous" to happen, that we can all live a sustainable life by better rationing all available resources and bla bla bla, we should not forget, in my opinion, that this freewill, is applicable also to the individuals. Therefore making each of us capable of taking different decisions.

The main problem than, melts down to a matter of awareness : if you are not aware that you are doing something wrong, how can you possibly decide to do it in a different way ?

The above is my attempt to give a sort of "scientific" explanation. But I would have preferred a more philosophical one  Wink

Open for discussion, if anybody wishes.

Thanks.

Signed: Twitter @Michele1940 Blog: pointapp.blogspot.com ; http://twitpic.com/photos/Michele1940
Phinnaeus Gage
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302


Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending


View Profile
July 07, 2011, 02:47:21 PM
 #530

There are a lot of talk going on around the world about virtual currency such as Bitcoins and others.

Many are arguing that virtual currency is a reality and that it's here to stay. I personally agree with this proposition but virtual currency shouldn't be used as an alternative store of value asset only.

Bitcoin is probably the most known and talked virtual currency in these days.  From what we can see in the exchange markets, that have been created to trade Bitcoin, there is a lot of daily activity in the trading environment.

What we cannot see is a similar activity in the retail environment either for on-line or real world transactions. Aside from a few examples, this virtual currency does not seem to be taking off.

What are the reasons for this ? Well there are many.

First of all, aside from the early adapters , "mining" Bitcoin for the individual has become a difficult task.
This means that if you want to have some of this Bitcoin , you can exchange them for your fiat currency on the exchange markets. So you have to take some of your stored "real money" and use them to store them again into Bitcoin. Unless, of course,  you have a real intention to use this Bitcoin to buy something that you like and you need/want to buy.

Second, why do you have to convert your "real money" into Bitcoin if you need/want to buy something ? Because Bitcoin allows you and the seller to have a cost free transaction in the same way you would have if you would hand over your cash money to the vendor.  In addition handling cash money is also a cost both for you and the vendor.

Third, is the vendor giving you any additional advantage if you pay in Bitcoin like, for example, a small discount ?  Not that I am aware of. But might be possible that same are doing it. What I know for sure is that if you pay with real cash money instead of your credit card, you have a very high possibility to get a small discount if you dare asking for it.

Fourth, there are the exchange markets that makes the conversion rate change and it is difficult for you and the vendor to forecast its future value. You may exchange your "real money"  into Bitcoin today or you can accept a payment in Bitcoin as a vendor today at a fixed current rate and find out a few days later that the value of Bitcoin has dropped. Or it has increased. This uncertainty, surely complicates the matter even more. Unless you see into Bitcoin a form of investment in the hope that its value will go sky high someday.

Many might argue that even your "real money" are subject to the same process described above.
All fiat money of course are subjected to inflation and deflation. And the conversion rate between them vary daily. Some might also argue that fiat money might collapse and that you would end up having a bank account filled up with numbers that have no purchase value at all.

So, it seems that what we need for a virtual currency to become a usable currency is a sort of stability of its value. In order to accomplish this, we have to reduce the trading and increase the actual use of our beloved virtual currency.

There are many that think that a world without any sort of monetary system would be a much better world. This is the key concept of a Resource Based Economy. It is my opinion that the present monetary system is just a paradigm, a model. Therefore it is subjected to a shift. And a Global Virtual Currency ( not necessarily Bitcoin ) could be a good entry point for the shift to occur. But it needs to be available for everybody for a Resource Based Economy to take place !!

I am working on this. Stay tuned.

+1
Michele1940
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56



View Profile WWW
July 07, 2011, 03:09:50 PM
 #531

There are a lot of talk going on around the world about virtual currency such as Bitcoins and others.

Many are arguing that virtual currency is a reality and that it's here to stay. I personally agree with this proposition but virtual currency shouldn't be used as an alternative store of value asset only.

Bitcoin is probably the most known and talked virtual currency in these days.  From what we can see in the exchange markets, that have been created to trade Bitcoin, there is a lot of daily activity in the trading environment.

What we cannot see is a similar activity in the retail environment either for on-line or real world transactions. Aside from a few examples, this virtual currency does not seem to be taking off.

What are the reasons for this ? Well there are many.

First of all, aside from the early adapters , "mining" Bitcoin for the individual has become a difficult task.
This means that if you want to have some of this Bitcoin , you can exchange them for your fiat currency on the exchange markets. So you have to take some of your stored "real money" and use them to store them again into Bitcoin. Unless, of course,  you have a real intention to use this Bitcoin to buy something that you like and you need/want to buy.

Second, why do you have to convert your "real money" into Bitcoin if you need/want to buy something ? Because Bitcoin allows you and the seller to have a cost free transaction in the same way you would have if you would hand over your cash money to the vendor.  In addition handling cash money is also a cost both for you and the vendor.

Third, is the vendor giving you any additional advantage if you pay in Bitcoin like, for example, a small discount ?  Not that I am aware of. But might be possible that same are doing it. What I know for sure is that if you pay with real cash money instead of your credit card, you have a very high possibility to get a small discount if you dare asking for it.

Fourth, there are the exchange markets that makes the conversion rate change and it is difficult for you and the vendor to forecast its future value. You may exchange your "real money"  into Bitcoin today or you can accept a payment in Bitcoin as a vendor today at a fixed current rate and find out a few days later that the value of Bitcoin has dropped. Or it has increased. This uncertainty, surely complicates the matter even more. Unless you see into Bitcoin a form of investment in the hope that its value will go sky high someday.

Many might argue that even your "real money" are subject to the same process described above.
All fiat money of course are subjected to inflation and deflation. And the conversion rate between them vary daily. Some might also argue that fiat money might collapse and that you would end up having a bank account filled up with numbers that have no purchase value at all.

So, it seems that what we need for a virtual currency to become a usable currency is a sort of stability of its value. In order to accomplish this, we have to reduce the trading and increase the actual use of our beloved virtual currency.

There are many that think that a world without any sort of monetary system would be a much better world. This is the key concept of a Resource Based Economy. It is my opinion that the present monetary system is just a paradigm, a model. Therefore it is subjected to a shift. And a Global Virtual Currency ( not necessarily Bitcoin ) could be a good entry point for the shift to occur. But it needs to be available for everybody for a Resource Based Economy to take place !!

I am working on this. Stay tuned.

+1

THANK YOU  Wink

Signed: Twitter @Michele1940 Blog: pointapp.blogspot.com ; http://twitpic.com/photos/Michele1940
Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1624


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
July 07, 2011, 07:23:05 PM
 #532

OK, I though a lot about the last posts, and I think it all boils down to this.

Facts
Every living system and living ecosystem on Earth is in a state of decline, due to our economic activities. There is no debate about that, every scientific paper published in the last 30 years confirms it. It's abundantly clear that a different approach is to be put in place.

ONLY if you assume that human population is not a "living system." Sure, we are altering the ecosystem, and are using up natural resources, we as a living system are quite the opposite of "in decline." Some of the other living systems that are popping up due to our activity are on the increase as well, such as rodent populations, certain types of insects, farm animal populations and bacteria and viruses. That part of the "living ecosystem" is thriving. So, the real question is really, WHICH living system do you think should be thriving at the expense of other systems?
Granted you could be saying that our economic activity is using up some of our limited resources, and that activity is unsustainable, but then you're also proposing that we can use technology to make it sustainable, which I don't see a reason why we wouldn't anyway...

Proposals
I propose we try to approach the problems scientifically, evaluate what causes negative retroactions, try to prevent them through education, non violent and non coercive manners, strive for a dynamic equilibrium with nature, use a systemic approach and adapt our ways of lives so that they are aligned with what the planet can provide, in order to ensure our long term survival.

How is this not what we are already doing, with people and businesses pushing for more and more green tech? Though you have already claimed over and over that you don't believe the markets deliver what people ask for (i.e. you seem to be rejecting a part of the market that goes against your believe of "capitalism=bad") when the people are asking and willing to pay more for conservation, or when companies find it cheaper to conserve.

Free market advocates believe in individual freedoms above all, and that somehow an invisible hand, guided by god-like unprovable entity, will fix everything.

One could say RBE/TZM people believe that somehow an invisible hand will convince EVERYONE to believe the same thing and, guided by faith in some scientific calculations, force them to submit themselves to that one god-like scientific figure/entity that will fix everything... There's likely more faith involved in believing that people will agree to go against their own free will and nature, and would be willing to submit to a single group/entity's wishes just because that group/entity tells them they'll be better off.

Babylon
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336



View Profile
July 07, 2011, 07:26:02 PM
 #533

There are a lot of talk going on around the world about virtual currency such as Bitcoins and others.

Many are arguing that virtual currency is a reality and that it's here to stay. I personally agree with this proposition but virtual currency shouldn't be used as an alternative store of value asset only.

Bitcoin is probably the most known and talked virtual currency in these days.  From what we can see in the exchange markets, that have been created to trade Bitcoin, there is a lot of daily activity in the trading environment.

What we cannot see is a similar activity in the retail environment either for on-line or real world transactions. Aside from a few examples, this virtual currency does not seem to be taking off.

What are the reasons for this ? Well there are many.

First of all, aside from the early adapters , "mining" Bitcoin for the individual has become a difficult task.
This means that if you want to have some of this Bitcoin , you can exchange them for your fiat currency on the exchange markets. So you have to take some of your stored "real money" and use them to store them again into Bitcoin. Unless, of course,  you have a real intention to use this Bitcoin to buy something that you like and you need/want to buy.

Second, why do you have to convert your "real money" into Bitcoin if you need/want to buy something ? Because Bitcoin allows you and the seller to have a cost free transaction in the same way you would have if you would hand over your cash money to the vendor.  In addition handling cash money is also a cost both for you and the vendor.

Third, is the vendor giving you any additional advantage if you pay in Bitcoin like, for example, a small discount ?  Not that I am aware of. But might be possible that same are doing it. What I know for sure is that if you pay with real cash money instead of your credit card, you have a very high possibility to get a small discount if you dare asking for it.

Fourth, there are the exchange markets that makes the conversion rate change and it is difficult for you and the vendor to forecast its future value. You may exchange your "real money"  into Bitcoin today or you can accept a payment in Bitcoin as a vendor today at a fixed current rate and find out a few days later that the value of Bitcoin has dropped. Or it has increased. This uncertainty, surely complicates the matter even more. Unless you see into Bitcoin a form of investment in the hope that its value will go sky high someday.

Many might argue that even your "real money" are subject to the same process described above.
All fiat money of course are subjected to inflation and deflation. And the conversion rate between them vary daily. Some might also argue that fiat money might collapse and that you would end up having a bank account filled up with numbers that have no purchase value at all.

So, it seems that what we need for a virtual currency to become a usable currency is a sort of stability of its value. In order to accomplish this, we have to reduce the trading and increase the actual use of our beloved virtual currency.

There are many that think that a world without any sort of monetary system would be a much better world. This is the key concept of a Resource Based Economy. It is my opinion that the present monetary system is just a paradigm, a model. Therefore it is subjected to a shift. And a Global Virtual Currency ( not necessarily Bitcoin ) could be a good entry point for the shift to occur. But it needs to be available for everybody for a Resource Based Economy to take place !!

I am working on this. Stay tuned.

I offer a significant discount.  I charge $1 per minute/card to people arranging payments by paypal,  I charge .05 BTC to people paying with bitcoins.

Also, if people choose to go through the provider that I do many of my readings through they will pay $4 per minute, so the bitcoin price is less than a quarter of the normal price.

Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1624


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
July 07, 2011, 07:38:30 PM
 #534

First of all, aside from the early adapters , "mining" Bitcoin for the individual has become a difficult task.
This means that if you want to have some of this Bitcoin , you can exchange them for your fiat currency on the exchange markets. So you have to take some of your stored "real money" and use them to store them again into Bitcoin. Unless, of course,  you have a real intention to use this Bitcoin to buy something that you like and you need/want to buy.

Like with SecondLife's Linden Dollars, I fully expect that the idea of having to pay for the currency when you used to be able to get it for "free" will turn people away (SecondLife used to pay everyone a "stipend" of 50$L a week, but then stopped it). On the other hand, many people making money for free just makes the money worth less. I think making people pay for it will reinforce the idea that this is a real money alternative. Linden Dollars survived, and now process I think something like a few million of transactions a day. I believe Bitcoin will to. One way we can push it along is by convincing people that transferring money into Bitcoin to buy stuff with Bitcoin online is no different than transferring money into PayPal to buy stuff with PayPal dollars. The volatility of the currency exchange is still a bit of an obstacle though.


So, it seems that what we need for a virtual currency to become a usable currency is a sort of stability of its value. In order to accomplish this, we have to reduce the trading and increase the actual use of our beloved virtual currency.

Actually, I think we need increased trading. Trading, not buying-and-holding. Traders add liquidity to the market, meaning those who want to buy and sell can do so quickly. They also stabilize the market, since if there are way more traders wishing to buy and sell around, say, a $17 mark, it will take A LOT more than just a few 1000BTC to make the price swing up or down wildly. The crazy volatility has actually been due to a severe lack of traders (aka, small volume) on the market. Traders also provide a valuable service, that being that they are willing to exchange their time (sitting on the money/trade and waiting) in exchange for someone who has no time and needs stuff NOW (retailers or customers wishing to exchange money)

Sjalq
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 280


View Profile WWW
July 07, 2011, 09:26:44 PM
 #535

INJECTION

Here's an idea for critique by the no-money Venus folks. Since there are enough resources available to do anything if required, how about the following suggestion. Make silicon legal tender. This way one of the most abundant and useful resources must always be accepted in the remission of a debt. IE you have abundant money based on an abundant resource.

If someone truly believes that the ideas of the Venus project can work he can voluntarily work on aspects of it. If someone else however does not share their enthusiasm, they can voluntarily opt out but would be obligated to accept what the planners of society view as a highly abundant resource for the remission of debts against them. So now if resources are truly super abundant then it will become evident and if it is not, then that too will become evident.

Cheesy mine mine mine mine mine mine mine Cheesy
*Image Removed*
18WMxaHsxx6FuvbQbeA33UZud1bnmD7xY3
Michele1940
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56



View Profile WWW
July 11, 2011, 12:47:39 PM
 #536

Hey, this discussion is too important to let it disappear !!! Post something, comment, do something to keep it alive.

Thanks.

Signed: Twitter @Michele1940 Blog: pointapp.blogspot.com ; http://twitpic.com/photos/Michele1940
LightRider
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1488


I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.


View Profile WWW
July 12, 2011, 01:37:31 AM
 #537

INJECTION

Here's an idea for critique by the no-money Venus folks. Since there are enough resources available to do anything if required, how about the following suggestion. Make silicon legal tender. This way one of the most abundant and useful resources must always be accepted in the remission of a debt. IE you have abundant money based on an abundant resource.

If someone truly believes that the ideas of the Venus project can work he can voluntarily work on aspects of it. If someone else however does not share their enthusiasm, they can voluntarily opt out but would be obligated to accept what the planners of society view as a highly abundant resource for the remission of debts against them. So now if resources are truly super abundant then it will become evident and if it is not, then that too will become evident.

This idea misses the point entirely. Legal tender is a cultural norm and value that we are trying to move away from. Making an arbitrary material a universal currency does not remove the underlying abusive tendencies associated with such a system.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
July 12, 2011, 07:30:42 AM
 #538

Free market advocates believe in individual freedoms above all, and that somehow an invisible hand, guided by god-like unprovable entity, will fix everything.

No, no and no. Again.
Free market only produces what people demand, which is more than what can be said about governments.
If you educate people to live in a sustainable way, then free market will be sustainable: no need for a brand new democracy.
RBE advocates believe that a new democratic and voluntary communism, guided by the all mighty science (mainly robots and absolutely good education), will fix everything.

For the good education, again, What's good?
Are you proposing public education for this?

And for the voluntary government, tell us more about that new democracy.
Show us an example of how a regulation would be put in place without polishitians and government employees.

Also the scale for the RBE, as far as I know from Peter's videos, would be global, introducing a Single point of failure.
I don't like centralization decision making.
As the raper Hayek said:
"Do I plan for myself or I leave it to you?
I want plans by the many, not by the few." 

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
July 12, 2011, 07:34:10 AM
 #539

This idea misses the point entirely. Legal tender is a cultural norm and value that we are trying to move away from.

Money is a cultural convention that you're proposing to eliminate without understanding its functions for society and without providing a substitute. The same for private property.
You don't like the free market nor the governments, but there's only the public and the private sectors.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
LightRider
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1488


I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.


View Profile WWW
July 12, 2011, 02:56:14 PM
 #540

there's only the public and the private sectors.


Incorrect. This is an artificial distinction. We share the same planet and the same resources. False authority does not alter this fact.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 [27] 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 ... 124 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!