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Author Topic: A Resource Based Economy  (Read 261221 times)
Rassah
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August 12, 2011, 01:46:15 PM
 #661

Ok, we replace 1000 farmers for 50 farmers and 5 engineers .
Can't all these 945 people do anything of value for those 55?


In a monetary system, they can either die or do increasingly menial, repetitive, unproductive, demeaning or otherwise slavish labor in their own or foreign land.

Ok, answer this then: why is it that in our monetary system, technology has progressed exponentially in the last 150 years, replacing millions of jobs with automated systems, yet the unemployment rate has held steady with an average of 4% to 6% (not including market crashes)? Do you believe that this is because the number of janitorial and financial jobs has increased?

Also, is the point of your argument that:

Automation/technology is BAD because it destroys jobs, but only because, due to money, jobs are needed to survive, so to fix this issue, we need to get rid of money, but continue to allow automation/technology to destroy jobs?

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August 12, 2011, 08:38:42 PM
 #662

Also, is the point of your argument that:

Automation/technology is BAD because it destroys jobs, but only because, due to money, jobs are needed to survive, so to fix this issue, we need to get rid of money, but continue to allow automation/technology to destroy jobs?

I think his reasoning is:

"Technology destroys employment. Both are incompatible, but luddities were wrong on the solution, we don't have to burn the factories. Machines have proven to be good, then work is necessarily what should be removed from this earth.

If the employment is sustained is only because of the growth of useless jobs. And those useless jobs don't stole from the production of useful jobs, they're just sustained by the increase in productivity caused by the machines. They could be just digging holes, because they don't need to produce anything, they just need money to pay the few real workers that exist and the machine owners."

Now I can see clearly the roots of the cornucopian fallacy: it's just a modified version of the luddite one. They just made a small change:

"Machines/technollogy/knowledge will make work impossible unnecessary".

Thank you hugolp, for mentioning them.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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August 13, 2011, 06:58:40 AM
 #663

The reason money exists in the first place is to allow the allocation of finite resources. Where resources are limited but wants (and to a lesser extent needs) are not.

My understanding is that the rationale for a resource based economy is precisely what you are pointing at: distributing scarce resources under rules that are not bound by monetary rules.
The caveat going with this scenario is that a global governance, being the only alternative to the governance of a globalized finance system, is not immune to the risk of a totalitarian shift.

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August 13, 2011, 07:41:52 AM
 #664

The reason money exists in the first place is to allow the allocation of finite resources. Where resources are limited but wants (and to a lesser extent needs) are not.

My understanding is that the rationale for a resource based economy is precisely what you are pointing at: distributing scarce resources under rules that are not bound by monetary rules.
The caveat going with this scenario is that a global governance, being the only alternative to the governance of a globalized finance system, is not immune to the risk of a totalitarian shift.

I'm not sure about that. The venus project may want a global communist government, but the zeitgeist movement doesn't want governments at all. It's all voluntary, and money will just disappear because "it will become useless". "We have tried money and didn't work, we tried governments and the same happened. It's time to try a different thing."

The computer is my friend

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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August 13, 2011, 09:58:03 AM
 #665

The reason money exists in the first place is to allow the allocation of finite resources. Where resources are limited but wants (and to a lesser extent needs) are not.

My understanding is that the rationale for a resource based economy is precisely what you are pointing at: distributing scarce resources under rules that are not bound by monetary rules.
The caveat going with this scenario is that a global governance, being the only alternative to the governance of a globalized finance system, is not immune to the risk of a totalitarian shift.

Its not only a problem of being authoritarian, its a problem that without price mechanism you can not distribute resources efficiently because information is local and (to the human capacity) infinite.

The Zeitgest movement just ignore this and keeps repeating that without money everything will be dandy. They have resurrected a lot of marxists economic fallacies (most of them dont even know where the ideas they repeat come from).
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August 13, 2011, 10:10:54 AM
 #666

You guys are famous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83LAk3BT7no

Edit: Post of the beast!

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
jtimon
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August 13, 2011, 11:32:48 AM
 #667

You guys are famous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83LAk3BT7no

Edit: Post of the beast!

Oh, I guess this is the video 4v4l0n42 promised us.
Let's analyze some of his mistakes.

1) desired results
Findeton was wrong when he said "There's no scientific theory on whether you should use nuclear power plants or solar panels.".
Yes you can and I'll tell you how. First you decide the desired results...

Well, that's exactly what findeton was claiming is out of the scientific method. Science doesn't give you desired results. Presenting Findeton argumentation cut and out of context makes him look right, but nothing else.

2) maximizing the well being of everybody

You cannot maximize the "well being" of everybody because the "well being" is subjective to each individual. You cannot even define a fungible unit (like watts, newtons, or grams) for the function you're supposed to maximize. You have no means to measure that "function".
You cannot define well being scientifically.

Even if you had all that and the perfect plan you need to motivate people to work on your plan (or wait for the singularity robot that will make it for you).

3) simulation of people's decisions

How do you simulate the people wants and cultural developments?

4) free market requires growth

No. This is false. Only our current monetary system requires growth because it is designed as a ponzi scheme of debt.
With sound money like gold, you would have business cycles that stop the unsustainable growth that capital-money demands in the form of interest. Well, with fiat currencies you have them too but commercial and central banks (and governments) try to stop deflation and just postpone it by printing, making the crises worse.
If they keep on postponing deflation with the current crises, we will end up with hyperinflation for the dollar (with catastrophic consequences for the entire world), maybe it is already unavoidable.

But you don't need capital-money in a free market. You can have money free of interest like ripple or freicoin.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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August 13, 2011, 01:39:03 PM
 #668

I finished the video! Democracy, technocracy, the free market or the scientific method for social concern?

This video is an attempt to show how the various forms of government and decision making work, what are their advantages and their problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83LAk3BT7no

I've been working on this video for quite some time, now it's finally ready. Hope you guys like it Wink

Sources cited in the video
The scientific method made easy http://goo.gl/v9SZi
Scientists and engineers in the 111th U.S. Congress http://goo.gl/a5uOO
Only two scientists among the 535 member of the U.S. Congress http://goo.gl/Ak8np
BitCoin Forum quote #1 http://goo.gl/JWzes
BitCoin Forum quote #2 http://goo.gl/j24IO
BitCoin Forum quote #3 http://goo.gl/nzDNz

Full transcript and links
http://goo.gl/KUlGw
jtimon
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August 13, 2011, 01:48:53 PM
 #669

Hi, I've already answered to your video.
I guess we still disagree on the same points.

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Murwa
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August 13, 2011, 10:39:59 PM
 #670


3) simulation of people's decisions

How do you simulate the people wants and cultural developments?


I dont think there was ever mentioning that , the simulation was applied to each scenario of decision making procees of building power source. For example simulation of potential deadly fuel leak form nuclear plant.

4) free market requires growth
No. This is false. Only our current monetary system requires growth because it is designed as a ponzi scheme of debt.
....
But you don't need capital-money in a free market. You can have money free of interest like ripple or freicoin.

Ok lets assume for a moment that is correct. But what exactly does that change , entire decision making process still stays the same ( profit based ) instead of scientific based . The same shit stays around .
miscreanity
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August 13, 2011, 11:41:10 PM
 #671

Presenting Findeton argumentation cut and out of context makes him look right, but nothing else.

You cannot maximize the "well being" of everybody because the "well being" is subjective to each individual.

How do you simulate the people wants and cultural developments?

Only our current monetary system requires growth because it is designed as a ponzi scheme of debt.

I couldn't have put it better myself. These are exactly the issues that plague the ZM/VP.

Half-truths, assumption of a universal mindset and rejection of potential unknowns.

The last point is agreed upon by everyone here as far as I can tell, but the ZM/VP chooses to eliminate it instead of determining why it's a Ponzi scheme. Even elimination of government is unwarranted and even undesirable - it's the current form of government that's at issue, not the existence of an organizational method.

Bitcoin as a system is a realistic solution to the Ponzi scheme that all human-managed currencies end up as; some form of it will eventually supersede existing fiat. That's the economic side. Now, current ideas of government need to be replaced. Since economic factors act as the framework of a society, a government will have to grow to fit the economy. It's just a matter of time.

That's why ZM/VP come off as relying on magic between the stages of starting a movement and accomplishing their goals.
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August 14, 2011, 12:46:08 PM
 #672


4) free market requires growth

No. This is false. Only our current monetary system requires growth because it is designed as a ponzi scheme of debt.
With sound money like gold, you would have business cycles that stop the unsustainable growth that capital-money demands in the form of interest. Well, with fiat currencies you have them too but commercial and central banks (and governments) try to stop deflation and just postpone it by printing, making the crises worse.
If they keep on postponing deflation with the current crises, we will end up with hyperinflation for the dollar (with catastrophic consequences for the entire world), maybe it is already unavoidable.

But you don't need capital-money in a free market. You can have money free of interest like ripple or freicoin.


I have something to ad up.

Yes free market requires growth because level of automation in increasing all the time - less people have jobs - more new jobs must be created.
Lack of technological unemployment and constant production cant happen at the same time.

You logic is circular. You claim technological unemployment dont exists because new jobs are created , if new jobs are created then production rises.
 Am i wrong or correct ?
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August 14, 2011, 01:08:45 PM
 #673

I think the key point for a better future society not whether we have some form of money or not, a RBE or not, but that all participation is VOLUNTARY, meaning there is no more initiation of force for any reason, and there is sufficient transparency (ie. no more big lies).

Nobody can predict what will happen once we have an (advanced) society in which everyone is free to do as they please as long as they do no harm. This is because there never really has been such a society in recorded history (although a few come close).

There might be a monetary system or there might not be a monetary system. We might even have a mixed situation where people in some areas organize their lives completely differently than people in other areas. This is what FREEDOM is about. Nobody tells anybody what they have to do or not do. Since people are quite diverse we will probably get many diverse solutions and situations.

I personally think there might be a transition period in which some better forms of money such as Bitcoin are used but that eventually even that becomes obsolete once there is prosperity for everyone (i.e. we reach a Star Trek like level where there is an abundance of energy and things).

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Doug Rudd
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August 14, 2011, 06:54:35 PM
 #674

About this technocracy:

What about individuality?

This machine world is going to be run an Elite of engineers. What happens if my views don't coincide with these Planners?
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August 14, 2011, 07:58:34 PM
 #675

About this technocracy:

What about individuality?

This machine world is going to be run an Elite of engineers. What happens if my views don't coincide with these Planners?

You should watch this video just from few posts above.

TZM does not advocate technocracy only applying scientific methods for social concern.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83LAk3BT7no
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August 14, 2011, 08:58:40 PM
 #676

I saw the video.
I searched the transcript for anything like the word "individual" and there is nothing. Doesn't this philosophy recognize such a thing as the individual?
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August 14, 2011, 10:08:44 PM
 #677

I saw the video.
I searched the transcript for anything like the word "individual" and there is nothing. Doesn't this philosophy recognize such a thing as the individual?

Can you tell me how you being an individual relates to the decision making process of choosing whether we should build nuclear plants or solar cells ( as in example ) Huh?

RBE is not about managing your life only the processes that concerns us all since we all live in a society on one single finite planet.

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August 15, 2011, 10:08:25 AM
 #678


3) simulation of people's decisions

How do you simulate the people wants and cultural developments?


I dont think there was ever mentioning that , the simulation was applied to each scenario of decision making procees of building power source. For example simulation of potential deadly fuel leak form nuclear plant.

If you want to base all decision making in simulation you need to do it.

4) free market requires growth
No. This is false. Only our current monetary system requires growth because it is designed as a ponzi scheme of debt.
....
But you don't need capital-money in a free market. You can have money free of interest like ripple or freicoin.

Ok lets assume for a moment that is correct. But what exactly does that change , entire decision making process still stays the same ( profit based ) instead of scientific based . The same shit stays around .

Well, if a false statement is not important for your conclusions, why keep on repeating lies?
As I told you, profit tends to zero by competition: nothing wrong with profit. The bad thing is interest and capital yields, which you won't have with ripple and freicoin.


2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
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August 15, 2011, 10:20:45 AM
 #679

I have something to ad up.

Yes free market requires growth because level of automation in increasing all the time - less people have jobs - more new jobs must be created.
Lack of technological unemployment and constant production cant happen at the same time.

You logic is circular. You claim technological unemployment dont exists because new jobs are created , if new jobs are created then production rises.
 Am i wrong or correct ?

You're assuming free market requires innovation and it always causes unemployment.
You're statement "if new jobs are created then production rises" is also false.
An example:

A grows carrots to barter for the things he wants.
B invents a new recipe that needs half of the carrots and share it with the community.
Now A can only barter half of his carrot production: he spends half the time he used to to grow the carrots and with the remaining time he makes massages.
Free market, innovation, job creation but no growth of production.

Anyway, as said before, free market doesn't need innovation, so it doesn't need growth. And Job creation != growth.
So, to answer your question, you're wrong.
But again, if this doesn't affect your conclusions about money, why do you insist on this?

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Murwa
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August 15, 2011, 10:37:03 AM
 #680

You're assuming free market requires innovation and it always causes unemployment.
Innovation is a natural tendency so is automation jobs are lost but they production is not.


A grows carrots to barter for the things he wants.
B invents a new recipe that needs half of the carrots and share it with the community.
Now A can only barter half of his carrot production: he spends half the time he used to to grow the carrots and with the remaining time he makes massages.
Free market, innovation, job creation but no growth of production.

Carrot production can be totally automated via hydroponic farms . If one that were growing them suddenly start making massages the demand for oil massages increases which increases production because machines continue to grow carrots plus now people need more oils.

Yes services increase production and energy consumption as well.

You example and reasoning totally missed the issue .
But again, if this doesn't affect your conclusions about money, why do you insist on this?

I always strive to know the facts not blind believes. If i am to be wrong i want to proven so and stopped being ignorant.
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