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Author Topic: A Resource Based Economy  (Read 261082 times)
LightRider
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August 08, 2011, 07:04:05 AM
 #621

LightRider - just stop. Anyone can post ideas that have become redundant and stale. If you really want to do the world a service, find what you're good at and do that thing.

Regarding major ZM goals:
  • The problems of the world cannot be legislated away.
  • Most of the ideas put forth have already been implemented.
  • Current technology is not capable of fully automating human labor.
  • Forcing widespread top-down change has proven counter-productive compared to bottom-up development

These issue have been discussed point-by-point here: A Dangerously Outdated Zeitgeist


We aren't asking for legislation.
We know that, we are trying to remove the barriers that prevent them from being scaled out and used intelligently for the benefit of all people.
It can automate enough of it to provide the basic needs for all people.
We aren't forcing anyone to do anything. We are building a bottom up movement to help implement change.

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August 08, 2011, 07:37:18 AM
 #622

We aren't asking for legislation.
We know that, we are trying to remove the barriers that prevent them from being scaled out and used intelligently for the benefit of all people.
It can automate enough of it to provide the basic needs for all people.
We aren't forcing anyone to do anything. We are building a bottom up movement to help implement change.

Of course not, because the ZM wouldn't have laws, right? It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

If you know, why beat a dead horse? How much progress has been made against these 'barriers'? I don't see any that wouldn't be occurring naturally.

Really? There's 'enough' automation? Define 'enough'. Then let me know when robots can pick berries, harvest crops and fluff my pillows.

Bottom up? The entire society has already been designed. That's top-down; it might as well be a dictatorship.

Besides, with this much infighting and idiocy, I'd rather have the bumbling morons George Bush and Gordon Brown running the world. More than enough damage has been done to the entire project to relegate it to fringe nutcase status. Even if Mr. Fresco were to set the story straight, there's no way back. The world will have advanced well beyond his vision by the time ZM/VP find direction.

You do yourself a disservice by supporting the ZM. Do something productive with your time instead. If you absolutely must rally behind a cause, try seasteading.
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August 08, 2011, 08:57:37 AM
 #623

We aren't asking for legislation.
We know that, we are trying to remove the barriers that prevent them from being scaled out and used intelligently for the benefit of all people.
It can automate enough of it to provide the basic needs for all people.
We aren't forcing anyone to do anything. We are building a bottom up movement to help implement change.

Of course not, because the ZM wouldn't have laws, right? It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission.

If you know, why beat a dead horse? How much progress has been made against these 'barriers'? I don't see any that wouldn't be occurring naturally.

Really? There's 'enough' automation? Define 'enough'. Then let me know when robots can pick berries, harvest crops and fluff my pillows.

Bottom up? The entire society has already been designed. That's top-down; it might as well be a dictatorship.

Besides, with this much infighting and idiocy, I'd rather have the bumbling morons George Bush and Gordon Brown running the world. More than enough damage has been done to the entire project to relegate it to fringe nutcase status. Even if Mr. Fresco were to set the story straight, there's no way back. The world will have advanced well beyond his vision by the time ZM/VP find direction.

You do yourself a disservice by supporting the ZM. Do something productive with your time instead. If you absolutely must rally behind a cause, try seasteading.

Laws are irrelevant to solving technical problems.

There's more progress than if we didn't advocate for this direction.

You can find out about these and other types of automation advancements at www.zeitnews.org if you are so inclined.

Fresco's designs are a good place to start, but they are only a start. Improvement is the continuing goal, which is not subject to human opinion.

Difference of opinions between organizations is irrelevant to advocating for a better world for all people, which the current institutions could not and will not support.

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August 08, 2011, 07:10:14 PM
 #624

Excuse my ignorance for not reading through this thread.  I just happened to see that someone had written that "education is hard work."  I had to snicker at that.  I'll allow a caveat for the 'hard' sciences (i.e. those requiring extreme mathematical precision).

Meh, reading one or two EXTREMELY dull and boring 27 page business cases every day, because you have to if you want an understanding of the subject and a nice degree to go with it, is hard work too. Though most of the work performed is for staying awake and not zoning out.

An example of the tedious and unnecessary work being done in service to a monetary system. It is most likely not relevant to sustaining life or the environment.

Yeah, because business is ALL about money, and in NO WAY about resource management. Who will manage the resources in your Resource Based Economy? Artists and poets?

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August 08, 2011, 07:46:51 PM
 #625

Excuse my ignorance for not reading through this thread.  I just happened to see that someone had written that "education is hard work."  I had to snicker at that.  I'll allow a caveat for the 'hard' sciences (i.e. those requiring extreme mathematical precision).

Meh, reading one or two EXTREMELY dull and boring 27 page business cases every day, because you have to if you want an understanding of the subject and a nice degree to go with it, is hard work too. Though most of the work performed is for staying awake and not zoning out.

An example of the tedious and unnecessary work being done in service to a monetary system. It is most likely not relevant to sustaining life or the environment.

Yeah, because business is ALL about money, and in NO WAY about resource management. Who will manage the resources in your Resource Based Economy? Artists and poets?

The important question is how, not who.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
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August 09, 2011, 05:18:17 AM
 #626

Excuse my ignorance for not reading through this thread.  I just happened to see that someone had written that "education is hard work."  I had to snicker at that.  I'll allow a caveat for the 'hard' sciences (i.e. those requiring extreme mathematical precision).

Meh, reading one or two EXTREMELY dull and boring 27 page business cases every day, because you have to if you want an understanding of the subject and a nice degree to go with it, is hard work too. Though most of the work performed is for staying awake and not zoning out.

An example of the tedious and unnecessary work being done in service to a monetary system. It is most likely not relevant to sustaining life or the environment.

Yeah, because business is ALL about money, and in NO WAY about resource management. Who will manage the resources in your Resource Based Economy? Artists and poets?

The important question is how, not who.

Ok, HOW will resource management be done if no one wants to do the hard work of learning it?

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August 10, 2011, 06:09:58 AM
 #627

Excuse my ignorance for not reading through this thread.  I just happened to see that someone had written that "education is hard work."  I had to snicker at that.  I'll allow a caveat for the 'hard' sciences (i.e. those requiring extreme mathematical precision).

Meh, reading one or two EXTREMELY dull and boring 27 page business cases every day, because you have to if you want an understanding of the subject and a nice degree to go with it, is hard work too. Though most of the work performed is for staying awake and not zoning out.

An example of the tedious and unnecessary work being done in service to a monetary system. It is most likely not relevant to sustaining life or the environment.

Yeah, because business is ALL about money, and in NO WAY about resource management. Who will manage the resources in your Resource Based Economy? Artists and poets?

The important question is how, not who.

Ok, HOW will resource management be done if no one wants to do the hard work of learning it?

Your premise is incorrect. People are willing to engage in useful activity. What makes "learning hard" is the attendant pressures of having to worry about the necessities of life, social status, contrived and exaggerated crises and myriad other irrelevant issues that cloud our social and cultural structures. A monetary system demanding infinite growth demands an even greater attention span, and thus makes learning a stressful non-essential activity as opposed to an engaging, dynamic, fulfilling and rewarding experience that it is. This doesn't even consider the contrived competitive nature of our current educational system and the untold stresses of trying to game that system to advance academically, socially and financially.

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August 10, 2011, 02:25:20 PM
 #628

Ok, HOW will resource management be done if no one wants to do the hard work of learning it?

Your premise is incorrect. People are willing to engage in useful activity. What makes "learning hard" is the attendant pressures of having to worry about the necessities of life, social status, contrived and exaggerated crises and myriad other irrelevant issues that cloud our social and cultural structures. A monetary system demanding infinite growth demands an even greater attention span, and thus makes learning a stressful non-essential activity as opposed to an engaging, dynamic, fulfilling and rewarding experience that it is. This doesn't even consider the contrived competitive nature of our current educational system and the untold stresses of trying to game that system to advance academically, socially and financially.

Just had a thought/realization about this. There are people who live on welfare and food stamps, and have for generations. There are whole communities of people like that around the world. They live within the main aspects of RBE, having food and shelter provided to them, and not having to worry about anything, with having plenty of time to devote themselves to whatever they want. Why is it that those people generally don't do anything other than waste time in front of a TV or video games, don't study anything at all, have no drive to learn any employable skills, and generally don't do anything that leads to "an engaging, dynamic, fulfilling and rewarding experience?" Why would a society living under an RBE system not end up just like our welfare communities?

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August 10, 2011, 02:46:39 PM
 #629

Just had a thought/realization about this. There are people who live on welfare and food stamps, and have for generations. There are whole communities of people like that around the world. They live within the main aspects of RBE, having food and shelter provided to them, and not having to worry about anything, with having plenty of time to devote themselves to whatever they want. Why is it that those people generally don't do anything other than waste time in front of a TV or video games, don't study anything at all, have no drive to learn any employable skills, and generally don't do anything that leads to "an engaging, dynamic, fulfilling and rewarding experience?" Why would a society living under an RBE system not end up just like our welfare communities?

Isn't it obvious?

  • Give everyone anything they want.
  • Get nothing in return.
  • Keep giving everything.
  • Magic happens.
  • The world is amazing.
  • Brain-gasm.

 Grin
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August 10, 2011, 03:15:52 PM
 #630

Just had a thought/realization about this. There are people who live on welfare and food stamps, and have for generations. There are whole communities of people like that around the world. They live within the main aspects of RBE, having food and shelter provided to them, and not having to worry about anything, with having plenty of time to devote themselves to whatever they want. Why is it that those people generally don't do anything other than waste time in front of a TV or video games, don't study anything at all, have no drive to learn any employable skills, and generally don't do anything that leads to "an engaging, dynamic, fulfilling and rewarding experience?" Why would a society living under an RBE system not end up just like our welfare communities?

Interesting while in fact there is some problem with the people you describe , why i dont know i would guess it is more complex then you describe it , but on the other hand i know plenty that educate them-selves by their own free choice beside work in useful subjects like informatics , engineering just because they like it.

Beside i dont care about people that "waste time in front of a TV or video games" it is their life to waste as long as they dont cause problems , isn't it true  freedom that you are you so preciously strive for ?
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August 10, 2011, 09:24:33 PM
 #631

Just had a thought/realization about this. There are people who live on welfare and food stamps, and have for generations. There are whole communities of people like that around the world. They live within the main aspects of RBE, having food and shelter provided to them, and not having to worry about anything, with having plenty of time to devote themselves to whatever they want. Why is it that those people generally don't do anything other than waste time in front of a TV or video games, don't study anything at all, have no drive to learn any employable skills, and generally don't do anything that leads to "an engaging, dynamic, fulfilling and rewarding experience?" Why would a society living under an RBE system not end up just like our welfare communities?

Interesting while in fact there is some problem with the people you describe , why i dont know i would guess it is more complex then you describe it , but on the other hand i know plenty that educate them-selves by their own free choice beside work in useful subjects like informatics , engineering just because they like it.

Beside i dont care about people that "waste time in front of a TV or video games" it is their life to waste as long as they dont cause problems , isn't it true  freedom that you are you so preciously strive for ?

My friend and classmate graduated with a degree in teaching and english, and came from that type of background, so yeah, there are some people (mainly kids) who want to get the heck out of there. But I suspect they're in the minority.
But the problem is, they're not wasting their life, they're wasting other people's lives by taking other people's inputs (wealth workers produced and partially paid back in taxes) and turning it into nothing. So, they don't have freedom; they are dependent on other's for survival, and contribute very little in return.
But the main point is still, why won't an RBE society end up with a vast majority of the population being lazy and doing nothing, while being stuck dependent on the few people/machines that are actually producing something?
Also, is the luxury cruise ship from Wall-E an example of RBE? Cause that sounds like what you, and I, are describing here.

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August 10, 2011, 09:30:34 PM
 #632

Ok, HOW will resource management be done if no one wants to do the hard work of learning it?

Your premise is incorrect. People are willing to engage in useful activity. What makes "learning hard" is the attendant pressures of having to worry about the necessities of life, social status, contrived and exaggerated crises and myriad other irrelevant issues that cloud our social and cultural structures. A monetary system demanding infinite growth demands an even greater attention span, and thus makes learning a stressful non-essential activity as opposed to an engaging, dynamic, fulfilling and rewarding experience that it is. This doesn't even consider the contrived competitive nature of our current educational system and the untold stresses of trying to game that system to advance academically, socially and financially.

Just had a thought/realization about this. There are people who live on welfare and food stamps, and have for generations. There are whole communities of people like that around the world. They live within the main aspects of RBE, having food and shelter provided to them, and not having to worry about anything, with having plenty of time to devote themselves to whatever they want. Why is it that those people generally don't do anything other than waste time in front of a TV or video games, don't study anything at all, have no drive to learn any employable skills, and generally don't do anything that leads to "an engaging, dynamic, fulfilling and rewarding experience?" Why would a society living under an RBE system not end up just like our welfare communities?

Thank you for thinking. Unfortunately your premises are incorrect yet again. No one receiving welfare, food stamps or other forms of monetary assistance is in any way "living within the main aspects" of an RBE. They are still restricted by the social order, institutions, choices and opportunities confined to our monetary system. An RBE is not just handing people a pittance to barely survive on. It is an integrated system that revolutionizes every aspect of civilized life and encourages people to reach their highest potential. There is no such focus in our current society.

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August 10, 2011, 09:46:51 PM
 #633

Thank you for thinking. Unfortunately your premises are incorrect yet again. No one receiving welfare, food stamps or other forms of monetary assistance is in any way "living within the main aspects" of an RBE. They are still restricted by the social order, institutions, choices and opportunities confined to our monetary system. An RBE is not just handing people a pittance to barely survive on. It is an integrated system that revolutionizes every aspect of civilized life and encourages people to reach their highest potential. There is no such focus in our current society.

Just like unionized labor, only without the labor. All the benefits, none of the work!

The Wall-E cruise ship is accurate; the proposed system is an illusion. The ZM/VP are Scientology with a patent portfolio. Properties of the vision may be present in actual future implementation, but not in most of the ways envisioned. It's borderline naive to think cultural and social structures will remain as they are today.
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August 10, 2011, 10:22:04 PM
 #634

Just had a thought/realization about this. There are people who live on welfare and food stamps, and have for generations. There are whole communities of people like that around the world. They live within the main aspects of RBE, having food and shelter provided to them, and not having to worry about anything, with having plenty of time to devote themselves to whatever they want. Why is it that those people generally don't do anything other than waste time in front of a TV or video games, don't study anything at all, have no drive to learn any employable skills, and generally don't do anything that leads to "an engaging, dynamic, fulfilling and rewarding experience?" Why would a society living under an RBE system not end up just like our welfare communities?

Interesting while in fact there is some problem with the people you describe , why i dont know i would guess it is more complex then you describe it , but on the other hand i know plenty that educate them-selves by their own free choice beside work in useful subjects like informatics , engineering just because they like it.

Beside i dont care about people that "waste time in front of a TV or video games" it is their life to waste as long as they dont cause problems , isn't it true  freedom that you are you so preciously strive for ?

My friend and classmate graduated with a degree in teaching and english, and came from that type of background, so yeah, there are some people (mainly kids) who want to get the heck out of there. But I suspect they're in the minority.
But the problem is, they're not wasting their life, they're wasting other people's lives by taking other people's inputs (wealth workers produced and partially paid back in taxes) and turning it into nothing. So, they don't have freedom; they are dependent on other's for survival, and contribute very little in return.
But the main point is still, why won't an RBE society end up with a vast majority of the population being lazy and doing nothing, while being stuck dependent on the few people/machines that are actually producing something?
Also, is the luxury cruise ship from Wall-E an example of RBE? Cause that sounds like what you, and I, are describing here.

I doubt that you actually believe that the only thing that motivates you or anyone you know is money. If you consider the vast majority of actions that you and your friends and family take, you would probably realize that they are not a part of profitable endeavors. In fact, you might even realize that money related activities are what you engage in less willingly and joyfully than other activities. We function as a society in spite of the monetary system, not because of it.

The fictional characters and situations in Wall-E bear no resemblance to the ideas of an RBE. However, the ending is indicative of the desire to return to understanding, caring for and learning to live on our planet intelligently.

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August 10, 2011, 11:23:46 PM
 #635


But the problem is, they're not wasting their life, they're wasting other people's lives by taking other people's inputs (wealth workers produced and partially paid back in taxes) and turning it into nothing. So, they don't have freedom; they are dependent on other's for survival, and contribute very little in return.


Thus why automation. So you dont have to work to keep someone else alive.

But the main point is still, why won't an RBE society end up with a vast majority of the population being lazy and doing nothing, while being stuck dependent on the few people/machines that are actually producing something?

There is no actual proof that lazy people are being generated just because they have access to free food.

But lets say that would become a problem a logical action would to analyze situation via scientific methods and acct accordingly since generating society of "lazy" people is a bad idea.

We have amazing machinery that can scan our brains or do other stuff , we learn more and more about human psychic, our science is progressing every day. Why dont we actually study and found out actual cause of generating lazy people instead of assuming stuff and arguing over what we think is right.

Todays course of action is to force people to work so they can survive. Yes that is the incentive but it has a lot of back drawbacks like chronic stress which is deadly. But if we actually found out that all it would take is to change our educational system thanks to which we would get much better result. We will never know if we just get stuck in our old rigid paradigms.

Obviously for all of our benefit the goal would be to generate such an environment that would incentive people to advance them-selves , but not in a way it is constructed now - "claw your way".


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August 11, 2011, 02:54:53 AM
 #636

I doubt that you actually believe that the only thing that motivates you or anyone you know is money. If you consider the vast majority of actions that you and your friends and family take, you would probably realize that they are not a part of profitable endeavors. In fact, you might even realize that money related activities are what you engage in less willingly and joyfully than other activities. We function as a society in spite of the monetary system, not because of it.

You are correct, money is not what motivates me. My motivations are new tech gadgets (just got a Xoom finally), world travel, exotic foods, and stuff like that. All of these things require me to trade my labor for someone else's labor. Someone else works to invent and build gadgets, create and manage machines that can take me across the globe, and come up with and cook delicious foods. Money is just a medium of my exchanging my productive labor for theirs.
If I could get all those things for free, I WOULD NOT WORK. I would go all over the planet, get fat from eating out constantly, and would waste each and every day playing around with tech gadgets and games. I would have zero motivation to do anything productive, since the things I enjoy I can get anyway. Why would others be different?

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August 11, 2011, 02:57:40 AM
 #637


But the problem is, they're not wasting their life, they're wasting other people's lives by taking other people's inputs (wealth workers produced and partially paid back in taxes) and turning it into nothing. So, they don't have freedom; they are dependent on other's for survival, and contribute very little in return.


Thus why automation. So you dont have to work to keep someone else alive.

And this brings us back around to: Who does the work of designing, building, and maintaining the machines to keep someone else alive?

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August 11, 2011, 04:07:38 AM
 #638


But the problem is, they're not wasting their life, they're wasting other people's lives by taking other people's inputs (wealth workers produced and partially paid back in taxes) and turning it into nothing. So, they don't have freedom; they are dependent on other's for survival, and contribute very little in return.


Thus why automation. So you dont have to work to keep someone else alive.

And this brings us back around to: Who does the work of designing, building, and maintaining the machines to keep someone else alive?

Huge 3D printers!

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August 11, 2011, 04:40:10 AM
 #639


But the problem is, they're not wasting their life, they're wasting other people's lives by taking other people's inputs (wealth workers produced and partially paid back in taxes) and turning it into nothing. So, they don't have freedom; they are dependent on other's for survival, and contribute very little in return.


Thus why automation. So you dont have to work to keep someone else alive.

And this brings us back around to: Who does the work of designing, building, and maintaining the machines to keep someone else alive?

Huge 3D printers!

Don't forget garden gnomes and unicorns!

... they run the printers.
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August 11, 2011, 06:19:00 AM
 #640

Why would others be different?

Let me assure you that other people are not exactly like you. You, presumably having spent your entire life being subject to the dominant culture of the monetary system and its affects, are conditioned to believe that you will only do things for money, but I am fairly certain that you have not been in such a position. You most likely would not spend your time the way you have described. I don't know of anyone who is happy to be idle or completely self indulgent all or even most of the time. With relevant values, you almost certainly would not.

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