Bitcoin Forum
December 08, 2016, 02:40:30 AM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 [31] 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 ... 124 »
  Print  
Author Topic: A Resource Based Economy  (Read 261237 times)
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
July 23, 2011, 07:51:53 PM
 #601

http://youtu.be/TDaFwnOiKVE

An interesting look at how we have bent our technology to serve the monetary system, in turn shaping the world we all share.

Free money would reduce speculation too. Not trade or options, since it would still be arbitrage.

By the way, is wall street a more complex system than the biosphere, that RBE claims can be managed with algorithms?
Isn't the algorithms that suggest you films also a problem within RBE?

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
1481164830
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481164830

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481164830
Reply with quote  #2

1481164830
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481164830
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481164830

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481164830
Reply with quote  #2

1481164830
Report to moderator
1481164830
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481164830

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481164830
Reply with quote  #2

1481164830
Report to moderator
1481164830
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481164830

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481164830
Reply with quote  #2

1481164830
Report to moderator
anderxander
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 70


View Profile
July 24, 2011, 01:32:53 PM
 #602

This discussion is dealing only with the effects of the actual global system. Anyone has taken into consideration the causes ? That would save me a LOT or reading....Thanks.

Two words: misaligned incentives.
I have two better words:  negative externalities.

OK, I though a lot about the last posts, and I think it all boils down to this.

Facts
Every living system and living ecosystem on Earth is in a state of decline, due to our economic activities. There is no debate about that, every scientific paper published in the last 30 years confirms it. It's abundantly clear that a different approach is to be put in place.

Proposals
I propose we try to approach the problems scientifically, evaluate what causes negative retroactions, try to prevent them through education, non violent and non coercive manners, strive for a dynamic equilibrium with nature, use a systemic approach and adapt our ways of lives so that they are aligned with what the planet can provide, in order to ensure our long term survival.

Free market advocates believe in individual freedoms above all, and that somehow an invisible hand, guided by god-like unprovable entity, will fix everything.

I am seeing this wrong? (Of course you are going to say yes straight away, but think about it for a few days, then come back and tell me).

Well here we have : misaligned incentives, negative externalities that cause negative retro actions. Can't the common cause of all this be called greediness ?

Seeking for a dynamic equilibrium with nature is definitely a good path to follow. Since from nature itself we can actually see that there are no misaligned incentives, no negative externalities and , therefore no greediness. Nature appears to evolve by itself in a way that the whole ecosystem is always in a state of development ( evolution ) rather than declining.

Economic activities are not a natural process. But, by all means, are perpetuated by Humans since " Illo Tempore ".

Humans are surely part of the natural ecosystem of this planet. And surely denote a much higher degree of awareness as compared to any other natural kingdom. Also they denote a freewill that allows them, for example, to elaborate economic activities able to "alter" the whole ecosystem.

In seeking for this "miraculous" to happen, that we can all live a sustainable life by better rationing all available resources and bla bla bla, we should not forget, in my opinion, that this freewill, is applicable also to the individuals. Therefore making each of us capable of taking different decisions.

The main problem than, melts down to a matter of awareness : if you are not aware that you are doing something wrong, how can you possibly decide to do it in a different way ?

The above is my attempt to give a sort of "scientific" explanation. But I would have preferred a more philosophical one  Wink

Open for discussion, if anybody wishes.

Thanks.


It is a result of the class war that has been going on for centuries. The rich are fighting a war they don't want anyone to know about. They believe in an "opulent" minority who is suited to rule over all others and make decisions that are "best" for the "stupid" masses.

1NhQB9dPCRKWJGBJmBhNJxCUnbrbXTiYY2
LightRider
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1488


I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.


View Profile WWW
July 27, 2011, 09:54:09 AM
 #603

Education is hard work.

The acquisition of knowledge is the default impetus of children, broadly speaking. Absorbing our surroundings, our culture and ideas is the fundamental behavior that has allowed us to become a dominant species. The limitless and and nearly inexhaustible desire to learn is slowly eroded by institutions and situations in which children are not provided an environment that promotes this activity. Increasingly in the monetary system, we abandon children to watch television, sit still, shut up and learn inside of government run child warehouses that promote social norms, competition and stratification, and then we are shoved into a dwindling job market that rewards dulling, repetitious and uncritical or thoughtless labor, menial servitude or other irrelevant services that sap our energy, desire and spirit. Nothing in our current system promotes cooperation for the betterment of all people everywhere. Instead we are forced to chip away at each other bit by bit while engaging in a monetary system that is currently self destructing. Social cohesion, concern for others and the desire to sustainably utilize our resources for the benefit of everyone is the farthest thing from our minds in the dominant culture. "Education" has only become "hard work" because the system has deemed it antithetical to the profit motive, and therefor has molded it to allow only the misinformed, mislead and misguided consuming masses to become "successful" in it. Given the state of our technological capability, scientific understanding and global interconnectedness, it is absolutely shameful that we continue to allow ourselves and others to be treated this way.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
July 27, 2011, 10:06:34 AM
 #604

Education is hard work.

The acquisition of knowledge is the default impetus of children, broadly speaking.

Yes, children like to learn. But they can learn quantum mechanics or how to kill a dragon in WoW.
Who will program your robots if everybody want to study arts?

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1624


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
July 27, 2011, 02:57:14 PM
 #605

Education is hard work.

The acquisition of knowledge is the default impetus of children, broadly speaking.

Yes, children like to learn. But they can learn quantum mechanics or how to kill a dragon in WoW.
Who will program your robots if everybody want to study arts?


That's the question/example I asked with regards to Saudi Arabia: Who will run the country when their oil runs out, if everyone is only interested in getting degrees in theology? (since everyone is currently paid by the government from the money it makes on oil)

Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1624


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
July 27, 2011, 03:00:11 PM
 #606

"Education" has only become "hard work" because the system has deemed it antithetical to the profit motive, and therefor has molded it to allow only the misinformed, mislead and misguided consuming masses to become "successful" in it.

Um, the reason education is "hard work" is because, to quote Barbie, "math is hard." Sorry, there's just no way around it. We need basic math and science skills to survive, and for kids who aren't interested in it (most kids I think), it'll be hard, but very necessary, work.

Murwa
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 119


View Profile
July 27, 2011, 03:33:03 PM
 #607

Regulations and patents are the opposite of a free market.

Again , they are emergent from free market. You dont understand or you dont agree ?

When I say profit I mean what a business gets from its earnings after it discounts its costs.
Most people produce for wages, not profits.

I dont understand how for example you can produce ipods for wage. Almost all productions and services has associeted cost with it.


What money I don't understand? Gold, the dollar, bitcoin, LETS, Ripple, freigeld, Terra or freicoin?
You like it or not they all produce different effects on how resources are managed.
Probably the more similar between them are gold and bitcoin.
Nice argument though.


Well all capital-based have that cyclical consumption in-printed into system. Be it fiat, gold or bitcoin.

The bartering ones like LETS , perhaps manage resources differently since you can go on negative without actually borrowing money.


"The economy", in general, requires infinite growth?
I don't agree at all. But if that's true, then RBE and socialism (as forms of economies), also need infinite growth.
There's no exit then?
You mean only fiat capital-money issued on debt through state legislation monetary systems? Then we agree, but that's not free market.

"The economy", in general, requires infinite growth?"
No the economy based on monetary exchange requires infinite growth. People have to have jobs and money must circulate.

The proposed RBE is totally dispatched from this reality. People dont need to have jobs, production doesnt need to increase( but can if possible ).

If production output will be constant factories producing crucial goods wont be closed because they stopped to be profitable due to the fact money no longer circulates as it used too. Silly things like that can only happen in a monetary based systems.




Not capital-money, but free money. If money rots like freigeld you don't really want to store it at home.
All LETS communities do this with every transaction they make (well, some transactions just pay back debts). Sane people in my opinion.

Ok this requires tremendous trust and is easily exploitable thats why i only works on local level. I cant possibly see it applied on global level.

No, I mean useful occupations like new machines operators, programmers, engineers, artists that take advantage of new technologies...

If you noticed ,none of those occupations is actually new. Those jobs are only changing its specifics not multiply it self magically .In fact those jobs suffer the same fate as simple production for example programmers can now make much more complicated programs in much less time due to established frameworks.

I don't claim is not real, I claim it doesn't last forever.

In past huge technological breakthroughs made so it didn't last.

Steam engine - steel - electricity - automobile industry - electronics - internet ... but now its ended .



The main issue here is artificial scarcity. Please explain me how, for example, a time banking system (or more generally, a LETS; or even more generally Ripple) leads to artificial scarcity.

Time banking, yes. With LETS or (better) Ripple, you can trade any good or service.

No, the more you want from others the more you have to give to others. If you need nothing you don't need a job.

My question was how can mutual credit moneys like time banking create artificial scarcity.

In order for abundance to occur everyone have to have a purchasing power. If everyone have a purchasing power , money inflates .

It is a paradox that is inputted in any kind of monetary system.


You mean define the human needs/wants scientifically? No, thanks.


No i did not mean "define the human needs/wants scientifically? No, thanks." Didn't say so, although needs can be scientifically defined for each of us ( you need to eat , defect , feel loved as a child by parents and so on) , and wants it just an individual stuff.
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
July 27, 2011, 07:17:30 PM
 #608

Regulations and patents are the opposite of a free market.

Again , they are emergent from free market. You dont understand or you dont agree ?

We define a free market as a market without regulations. I guess I disagree.

When I say profit I mean what a business gets from its earnings after it discounts its costs.
Most people produce for wages, not profits.

I dont understand how for example you can produce ipods for wage. Almost all productions and services has associeted cost with it.

Yes, and I define profits as
profits = gains - costs
Wages are just another cost of production, not profits.


What money I don't understand? Gold, the dollar, bitcoin, LETS, Ripple, freigeld, Terra or freicoin?
You like it or not they all produce different effects on how resources are managed.
Probably the more similar between them are gold and bitcoin.
Nice argument though.


Well all capital-based have that cyclical consumption in-printed into system. Be it fiat, gold or bitcoin.

What's the problem with consuption?
RBE has consumption too.

The bartering ones like LETS , perhaps manage resources differently since you can go on negative without actually borrowing money.

You're borrowing money (or at least, value), but there's no basic interest because the seller can "lend to you" without even having the money.
In LETS, every owner of a positive balance is lending to every owner of a negative balance.

"The economy", in general, requires infinite growth?
I don't agree at all. But if that's true, then RBE and socialism (as forms of economies), also need infinite growth.
There's no exit then?
You mean only fiat capital-money issued on debt through state legislation monetary systems? Then we agree, but that's not free market.

"The economy", in general, requires infinite growth?"
No the economy based on monetary exchange requires infinite growth. People have to have jobs and money must circulate.

No, the monetary exchange doesn't require infinite growth.
"fiat capital-money issued on debt through state legislation monetary systems" require infinite growth.

The proposed RBE is totally dispatched from this reality. People dont need to have jobs, production doesnt need to increase( but can if possible ).

Although with a free market most people need and/or want to have a job, within a free market "production doesn't need to increase( but can if possible)".
Production only increases if demand increases and the resources available allow it. Note that any use of a resource competes with other uses, so only the more demanded use will manage the resource.

If production output will be constant factories producing crucial goods wont be closed because they stopped to be profitable due to the fact money no longer circulates as it used too. Silly things like that can only happen in a monetary based systems.

Factories don't stop for a lack of profit.
Within capitalism when they yield less than the interest on money that the factory owner would get if he sells his factory.
With free money, when the factory produce less money than what it costs to run the factory or when someone has a better use for the factory.


Not capital-money, but free money. If money rots like freigeld you don't really want to store it at home.
All LETS communities do this with every transaction they make (well, some transactions just pay back debts). Sane people in my opinion.

Ok this requires tremendous trust and is easily exploitable thats why i only works on local level. I cant possibly see it applied on global level.

Ripple is the way to scale LETS.

No, I mean useful occupations like new machines operators, programmers, engineers, artists that take advantage of new technologies...

If you noticed ,none of those occupations is actually new. Those jobs are only changing its specifics not multiply it self magically .In fact those jobs suffer the same fate as simple production for example programmers can now make much more complicated programs in much less time due to established frameworks.

Ok. Let's invent a new profession. Genetic engineers are able to build "tree houses". Some construction workers will have to look for another job, but at the same time the demand for Genetic engineers will be increased. 

I don't claim is not real, I claim it doesn't last forever.

In past huge technological breakthroughs made so it didn't last.

Steam engine - steel - electricity - automobile industry - electronics - internet ... but now its ended .

I don't think this time is different.

The main issue here is artificial scarcity. Please explain me how, for example, a time banking system (or more generally, a LETS; or even more generally Ripple) leads to artificial scarcity.

Time banking, yes. With LETS or (better) Ripple, you can trade any good or service.

No, the more you want from others the more you have to give to others. If you need nothing you don't need a job.

My question was how can mutual credit moneys like time banking create artificial scarcity.

In order for abundance to occur everyone have to have a purchasing power. If everyone have a purchasing power , money inflates .

It is a paradox that is inputted in any kind of monetary system.

Since resources are scarce, we can't all have infinite purchasing power. In fact no one can.
Your purchasing power and your share of everything that is on sale.


You mean define the human needs/wants scientifically? No, thanks.


No i did not mean "define the human needs/wants scientifically? No, thanks." Didn't say so, although needs can be scientifically defined for each of us ( you need to eat , defect , feel loved as a child by parents and so on) , and wants it just an individual stuff.

I don't think you can make a clear distinction between needs and wants.
Anyway, you agree that wants shouldn't be scientifically defined or chosen.
Then how do you manage resources scientifically and attending to wants?

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
Murwa
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 119


View Profile
July 27, 2011, 10:23:05 PM
 #609

We define a free market as a market without regulations. I guess I disagree.

Ok i will try differently
It is in the interests of all objects already established on the free market to destroy free market principles in order to secure its position .

Do you agree or not ?

What's the problem with consumption?
RBE has consumption too.

The problem is that it must to be maintained cyclically as often as possible which leads to the unnatural high resource consumption , planned obsolescence , huge waste and environmental impact and many other externalized costs.

RBE promotes something totally opposite , goods designed to last as long as possible, upgradeable and recyclable.

You're borrowing money (or at least, value), but there's no basic interest because the seller can "lend to you" without even having the money.
In LETS, every owner of a positive balance is lending to every owner of a negative balance.

I know .

No, the monetary exchange doesn't require infinite growth.
"fiat capital-money issued on debt through state legislation monetary systems" require infinite growth.

Yes it does.
How can you imagine economy based on any money where production is constant ? Money would just accumulate in few hands and economy collapse.

Although with a free market most people need and/or want to have a job,
There you go technological unemployment again and artificial need to sustain jobs which leads to many negative consequences.

within a free market "production doesn't need to increase( but can if possible)".
Production only increases if demand increases and the resources available allow it. Note that any use of a resource competes with other uses, so only the more demanded use will manage the resource.
within a free market "production doesn't need to increase( but can if possible)".

Yes it needs to sustain money circulation ............

Factories don't stop for a lack of profit.

Omg yes they do its called bankruptcy.


Ripple is the way to scale LETS.

I am not familiar to the idea. And just so you know i consider this LETS an interesting idea propably much better would we have today , yet it still dont fix major issues connected to the monetary exchange mentioned before in this thread.

Ok. Let's invent a new profession. Genetic engineers are able to build "tree houses". Some construction workers will have to look for another job, but at the same time the demand for Genetic engineers will be increased.  

One genetic engineer can do the job of thousand workers , since when you have a seed its done deal , over ,no more work.

I don't think this time is different.

It is very different today, because we are reaching the point not only that human labor is diminished as in the past but can be totally replaced in many cases.
Even if some miraculous invention would come it has high chance its production,service can already be automated.


Since resources are scarce, we can't all have infinite purchasing power. In fact no one can.
Your purchasing power and your share of everything that is on sale.

It is not true , we produce enough food to feed everyone yet 2 billion ( or less ) people dont have purchasing power to buy it.
It is wasteful and stupid and done in the name of profit.


I don't think you can make a clear distinction between needs and wants.
Anyway, you agree that wants shouldn't be scientifically defined or chosen.
Then how do you manage resources scientifically and attending to wants?

Population can be surveyed , with the age of computers you can get input almost instantly.
Free market cant predict what people want as well it just quickly reacts to those wants , the same way would be with RBE just action would be coordinated and decentralized.

jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
July 28, 2011, 09:12:42 AM
 #610

We define a free market as a market without regulations. I guess I disagree.

Ok i will try differently
It is in the interests of all objects already established on the free market to destroy free market principles in order to secure its position.

Do you agree or not ?

I don't agree. Is not in the best interest of the people to destroy free market principles.

What's the problem with consumption?
RBE has consumption too.

The problem is that it must to be maintained cyclically as often as possible which leads to the unnatural high resource consumption , planned obsolescence , huge waste and environmental impact and many other externalized costs.

The consumption is also "cyclical" in RBE.
No, it doesn't have to be maintained as often as possible, just as often as consumers demand. Note that the different demands compete with each other for the use of resources.
What leads to short-term thinking and unnatural high resource consumption is interest. You don't have proved me wrong in this statement.
What leads to planned obsolescence are cartels and monopolies.

RBE promotes something totally opposite , goods designed to last as long as possible, upgradeable and recyclable.

Goods designed to last as long as possible is not always the best economic decision.
We eventually will recycle every resource no matter the system.

No, the monetary exchange doesn't require infinite growth.
"fiat capital-money issued on debt through state legislation monetary systems" require infinite growth.

Yes it does.
How can you imagine economy based on any money where production is constant ? Money would just accumulate in few hands and economy collapse.
[/quote]

The production doesn't have to be constant to have zero growth.
Money accumulates in few hands because of interest and lobbying.

Although with a free market most people need and/or want to have a job,
There you go technological unemployment again and artificial need to sustain jobs which leads to many negative consequences.
----------------------
within a free market "production doesn't need to increase( but can if possible)".
Production only increases if demand increases and the resources available allow it. Note that any use of a resource competes with other uses, so only the more demanded use will manage the resource.
within a free market "production doesn't need to increase( but can if possible)".

Yes it needs to sustain money circulation ............

Money circulation != growth

Factories don't stop for a lack of profit.

Omg yes they do its called bankruptcy.


No.
zero profits != bankruptcy

Ripple is the way to scale LETS.

I am not familiar to the idea. And just so you know i consider this LETS an interesting idea propably much better would we have today , yet it still dont fix major issues connected to the monetary exchange mentioned before in this thread.

Is good that you consider LETS interesting. Ripple is even better.
They have something in common with some scarce moneys such as freigeld or freicoin: they eliminate basic interest.

Ok. Let's invent a new profession. Genetic engineers are able to build "tree houses". Some construction workers will have to look for another job, but at the same time the demand for Genetic engineers will be increased.  

One genetic engineer can do the job of thousand workers , since when you have a seed its done deal , over ,no more work.

But you're assuming that different demands won't appear when our production capacities improve drastically.

I don't think this time is different.

It is very different today, because we are reaching the point not only that human labor is diminished as in the past but can be totally replaced in many cases.
Even if some miraculous invention would come it has high chance its production,service can already be automated.

But someone will always demand human labor !!!

Since resources are scarce, we can't all have infinite purchasing power. In fact no one can.
Your purchasing power and your share of everything that is on sale.

It is not true , we produce enough food to feed everyone yet 2 billion ( or less ) people dont have purchasing power to buy it.
It is wasteful and stupid and done in the name of profit.

You can't blame the free market for a hungry world. African peoples used to have their needs covered. Their problems begin when our when their politicians start talking with ours.
What I mean is that all the purchasing power in the world is held by all the people in the world, but you can't have more purchasing power than resources.

I don't think you can make a clear distinction between needs and wants.
Anyway, you agree that wants shouldn't be scientifically defined or chosen.
Then how do you manage resources scientifically and attending to wants?

Population can be surveyed , with the age of computers you can get input almost instantly.

You survey population. You come up with the conclusion that the current population cannnot be sustained in the long term (when we run out of fossil fuels).
What does the RBE?

Free market cant predict what people want as well it just quickly reacts to those wants , the same way would be with RBE just action would be coordinated and decentralized.

What's the point of surveying all resources on earth if you can't know what people wants?
Imagine the UN feeds the world through a global tax (pretty centralized).
How the rest of resources will be used?
How the RBE is able to know what people wants?
The free market is about decentralizing economic decision making and coordinate production with demands.
If the RBE is going to be decentralized (I think this is the first time I hear it), what mechanism warranties the coordination between the basic elements of decision making.
In free market, those basic elements are people. What are those basic elements in RBE? Cities?

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
Murwa
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 119


View Profile
July 28, 2011, 10:55:22 AM
 #611

It is in the interests of all objects already established on the free market to destroy free market principles in order to secure its position.
I don't agree. Is not in the best interest of the people to destroy free market principles.

Read my question again and answer it this time. I said objects already established on free market not people.



Money circulation != growth
Yes pretty much it is , if money dont circulate you dont produce because, no one produce for free. Money have to change hands in order for transaction to be made and good to be produced.

If you cant comprehend such a simple concept i dont think there any point to our discussion until you understand it.

But you're assuming that different demands won't appear when our production capacities improve drastically.

It is you who is assuming that they will , i only reach the conclusion based on data i have found out on-line while you are using "crystal ball" to predict the future.

But someone will always demand human labor !!!
Like prostitutes , yeah perhaps.


You can't blame the free market for a hungry world. African peoples used to have their needs covered. Their problems begin when our when their politicians start talking with ours.
What I mean is that all the purchasing power in the world is held by all the people in the world, but you can't have more purchasing power than resources.

No, i blame profit driven economy ( which includes mystical free market ).

You survey population. You come up with the conclusion that the current population cannnot be sustained in the long term (when we run out of fossil fuels).
What does the RBE?

Sustainability is a key goal of RBE. If we consume more oil than it is being replenished we have to change our way . Lucky he have plenty of alternative technologies.

What's the point of surveying all resources on earth if you can't know what people wants?
Imagine the UN feeds the world through a global tax (pretty centralized).
How the rest of resources will be used?
How the RBE is able to know what people wants?
The free market is about decentralizing economic decision making and coordinate production with demands.
If the RBE is going to be decentralized (I think this is the first time I hear it), what mechanism warranties the coordination between the basic elements of decision making.
In free market, those basic elements are people. What are those basic elements in RBE? Cities?

"What's the point of surveying all resources on earth if you can't know what people wants?"
It is obvious that if you want to manage your inventory in an efficient way you have to know what you have , where and in what quantities.
"How the RBE is able to know what people wants? "
Surveys.
"If the RBE is going to be decentralized (I think this is the first time I hear it), what mechanism warranties the coordination between the basic elements of decision making. "
As far as i understand it ;

Action is taken in a decentralized manner while all is accounted centrally.
You cant manage resources if you have no entire data thus centralization.
People in tropic areas have different needs and want then in other areas of the world ( for example what would be the point of production very heavy clothes in the middle of Africa ) thus action is decentralized.

"In free market, those basic elements are people."
Hardly
Basic elements are companies and profit.
"What are those basic elements in RBE? Cities?"
I guess you could say that.
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
July 28, 2011, 11:30:28 AM
 #612

It is in the interests of all objects already established on the free market to destroy free market principles in order to secure its position.
I don't agree. Is not in the best interest of the people to destroy free market principles.

Read my question again and answer it this time. I said objects already established on free market not people.


People are objects already established in the free market. The most important objects, because they're the ones that make decisions.

Money circulation != growth
Yes pretty much it is , if money dont circulate you dont produce because, no one produce for free. Money have to change hands in order for transaction to be made and good to be produced.

You can have money circulation without increased production.
I'll try it with an example:

Ana produces bread. Bod produces clothes. Carl produces.
They trade between them with money, money circulates.
None of them increases his production, production is fixed, therefore there's no growth.

If you cant comprehend such a simple concept i dont think there any point to our discussion until you understand it.

You confuse many economic concepts. I'm also starting to think that there's no point to keep on discussing with you.
You're already testing my patience by making me explain you very simple economic concepts, don't insult me again or I'll stop explaining things.

But you're assuming that different demands won't appear when our production capacities improve drastically.

It is you who is assuming that they will , i only reach the conclusion based on data i have found out on-line while you are using "crystal ball" to predict the future.

But someone will always demand human labor !!!
Like prostitutes , yeah perhaps.

Like prostitutes, musicians, teachers and providers of other services that don't exist yet.

You can't blame the free market for a hungry world. African peoples used to have their needs covered. Their problems begin when our when their politicians start talking with ours.
What I mean is that all the purchasing power in the world is held by all the people in the world, but you can't have more purchasing power than resources.

No, i blame profit driven economy ( which includes mystical free market ).

And I claim you're wrong. I blame politics and interest.

You survey population. You come up with the conclusion that the current population cannnot be sustained in the long term (when we run out of fossil fuels).
What does the RBE?

Sustainability is a key goal of RBE. If we consume more oil than it is being replenished we have to change our way . Lucky he have plenty of alternative technologies.

It seems you completely ignore the coming energy crises.
Some key words for research: peak oil, EROI.

Free market cant predict what people want as well it just quickly reacts to those wants , the same way would be with RBE just action would be coordinated and decentralized.

I've already answered to this one.

What's the point of surveying all resources on earth if you can't know what people wants?
Imagine the UN feeds the world through a global tax (pretty centralized).
How the rest of resources will be used?
How the RBE is able to know what people wants?
The free market is about decentralizing economic decision making and coordinate production with demands.
If the RBE is going to be decentralized (I think this is the first time I hear it), what mechanism warranties the coordination between the basic elements of decision making.
In free market, those basic elements are people. What are those basic elements in RBE? Cities?

"What's the point of surveying all resources on earth if you can't know what people wants?"
It is obvious that if you want to manage your inventory in an efficient way you have to know what you have , where and in what quantities.
"How the RBE is able to know what people wants? "
Surveys.
"If the RBE is going to be decentralized (I think this is the first time I hear it), what mechanism warranties the coordination between the basic elements of decision making. "
As far as i understand it ;

Action is taken in a decentralized manner while all is accounted centrally.
You cant manage resources if you have no entire data thus centralization.
People in tropic areas have different needs and want then in other areas of the world ( for example what would be the point of production very heavy clothes in the middle of Africa ) thus action is decentralized.

"In free market, those basic elements are people."
Hardly
Basic elements are companies and profit.
"What are those basic elements in RBE? Cities?"
I guess you could say that.

Who makes the decisions in a decentralized manner? The major of the city?
You can manage your local resources efficiently without knowing the world's resources.
And yes, individuals are the only decision making elements on a free market.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
Michele1940
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56



View Profile WWW
July 28, 2011, 01:02:47 PM
 #613

Education is hard work.

The acquisition of knowledge is the default impetus of children, broadly speaking. Absorbing our surroundings, our culture and ideas is the fundamental behavior that has allowed us to become a dominant species. The limitless and and nearly inexhaustible desire to learn is slowly eroded by institutions and situations in which children are not provided an environment that promotes this activity. Increasingly in the monetary system, we abandon children to watch television, sit still, shut up and learn inside of government run child warehouses that promote social norms, competition and stratification, and then we are shoved into a dwindling job market that rewards dulling, repetitious and uncritical or thoughtless labor, menial servitude or other irrelevant services that sap our energy, desire and spirit. Nothing in our current system promotes cooperation for the betterment of all people everywhere. Instead we are forced to chip away at each other bit by bit while engaging in a monetary system that is currently self destructing. Social cohesion, concern for others and the desire to sustainably utilize our resources for the benefit of everyone is the farthest thing from our minds in the dominant culture. "Education" has only become "hard work" because the system has deemed it antithetical to the profit motive, and therefor has molded it to allow only the misinformed, mislead and misguided consuming masses to become "successful" in it. Given the state of our technological capability, scientific understanding and global interconnectedness, it is absolutely shameful that we continue to allow ourselves and others to be treated this way.

All the above is correct BUT NO, NO,NO........GOING TO FAR & TOO FAST.......(MY OPINION)

AN RBE is surely something that is driven by the Universal Evolution that we all are subjected to. No way to escape from this since this is one of the most important of the spiritual lows that governs the universe.

But in order to be applicable on our plane of existence, it needs a much more developed individual consciousness  for the human race. Which, at present, it is not the case.

We are living in this way since humanity still needs to reach this eighths. And cannot be otherwise until we overcome this present state of consciousness. You have said the same think in one of your posts when you were saying that people need to make mistake in order to learn the right path to follow. This is a spiritual law.

Signed: Twitter @Michele1940 Blog: pointapp.blogspot.com ; http://twitpic.com/photos/Michele1940
the joint
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1792



View Profile
July 28, 2011, 07:58:25 PM
 #614

Excuse my ignorance for not reading through this thread.  I just happened to see that someone had written that "education is hard work."  I had to snicker at that.  I'll allow a caveat for the 'hard' sciences (i.e. those requiring extreme mathematical precision).

Rassah
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1624


Director of Bitcoin100


View Profile
July 28, 2011, 09:52:59 PM
 #615

Excuse my ignorance for not reading through this thread.  I just happened to see that someone had written that "education is hard work."  I had to snicker at that.  I'll allow a caveat for the 'hard' sciences (i.e. those requiring extreme mathematical precision).

Meh, reading one or two EXTREMELY dull and boring 27 page business cases every day, because you have to if you want an understanding of the subject and a nice degree to go with it, is hard work too. Though most of the work performed is for staying awake and not zoning out.

the joint
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1792



View Profile
July 28, 2011, 10:54:26 PM
 #616

Excuse my ignorance for not reading through this thread.  I just happened to see that someone had written that "education is hard work."  I had to snicker at that.  I'll allow a caveat for the 'hard' sciences (i.e. those requiring extreme mathematical precision).

Meh, reading one or two EXTREMELY dull and boring 27 page business cases every day, because you have to if you want an understanding of the subject and a nice degree to go with it, is hard work too. Though most of the work performed is for staying awake and not zoning out.

Fair enough.  I guess I was using a different nomological definition of "hard."

Murwa
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 119


View Profile
July 29, 2011, 11:18:13 AM
 #617

People are objects already established in the free market. The most important objects, because they're the ones that make decisions.

No you dont understand .

I guess if you had run successful company you would just wait for competition to emerge to get you and all your employees out of business instead of trying to regulate,manipulate and cartalize the market , and keep your profits, power and your own job.

You can have money circulation without increased production.
I'll try it with an example:

Ana produces bread. Bod produces clothes. Carl produces.
They trade between them with money, money circulates.
None of them increases his production, production is fixed, therefore there's no growth.

It works to the point when someone withhold consumption for one or more cycles ( because he doesn't need to or want to and such a cases always happens ) and start hoarding money , then entire economy halts, thus infinite growth is required to offsets such an anomalies.

Cant put any more simple for you.


Like prostitutes, musicians, teachers and providers of other services that don't exist yet.

Again crystal ball.

It seems you completely ignore the coming energy crises.
Some key words for research: peak oil, EROI.

How is me saying that since that oil consumption is unsustainable we should implement alternative technologies, is ignoring peak oil ?
jtimon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246


View Profile WWW
August 04, 2011, 12:12:44 PM
 #618

People are objects already established in the free market. The most important objects, because they're the ones that make decisions.

I guess if you had run successful company you would just wait for competition to emerge to get you and all your employees out of business instead of trying to regulate,manipulate and cartalize the market , and keep your profits, power and your own job.

Fair enough.
Managers can have an incentive to coerce other persons to maintain their business (not necessarily to maintain profits), but at the moment they cartel, burn their competitor's office or lobby for regulations they're attacking other people's freedom.
Then you don't have a free market anymore, just a market.
A soccer player can has the incentive to hurt the best player of the other team, but when he kicks his rival knee, he's not playing football, he's playing other thing.

You can have money circulation without increased production.
I'll try it with an example:

Ana produces bread. Bod produces clothes. Carl produces.
They trade between them with money, money circulates.
None of them increases his production, production is fixed, therefore there's no growth.

It works to the point when someone withhold consumption for one or more cycles ( because he doesn't need to or want to and such a cases always happens ) and start hoarding money , then entire economy halts, thus infinite growth is required to offsets such an anomalies.


With hoarding, prices will just go down, but money will keep on circulating.
Anyway, I'm not a big fan of hoarding within scarce currencies. With abundance currencies like LETS, there's no problem with hoarding, people can still trade without price variations.
With freicoin hoarding is discouraged through demurrage. Yet the main advantage of freicoin is to eliminate interest.

Like prostitutes, musicians, teachers and providers of other services that don't exist yet.

Again crystal ball.

No, new services appear every day. New professions appear every year.
Yet you call for the end of labor. You're the one using the crystal ball to claim "this time is different".

It seems you completely ignore the coming energy crises.
Some key words for research: peak oil, EROI.

How is me saying that since that oil consumption is unsustainable we should implement alternative technologies, is ignoring peak oil ?


Saying that we will just switch to renewables and we still could have energy abundance in the short term is ignoring that the infrastructure creation will be expensive (just to produce as much energy as we get today from fossils) and will rely on fossils.
The problem with peak oil is not only that the production will decline, but also that production of energy (through fossil) will get more and more expensive.
Maybe you know what the falling EROI is, but it seems to me that you don't fully understand its consequences when you call for a future of energy abundance.

2 different forms of free-money: Freicoin (free of basic interest because it's perishable), Mutual credit (no interest because it's abundant)
LightRider
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1488


I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.


View Profile WWW
August 07, 2011, 11:55:39 PM
 #619

Excuse my ignorance for not reading through this thread.  I just happened to see that someone had written that "education is hard work."  I had to snicker at that.  I'll allow a caveat for the 'hard' sciences (i.e. those requiring extreme mathematical precision).

Meh, reading one or two EXTREMELY dull and boring 27 page business cases every day, because you have to if you want an understanding of the subject and a nice degree to go with it, is hard work too. Though most of the work performed is for staying awake and not zoning out.

An example of the tedious and unnecessary work being done in service to a monetary system. It is most likely not relevant to sustaining life or the environment.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
miscreanity
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1078


View Profile
August 08, 2011, 02:31:14 AM
 #620

LightRider - just stop. Anyone can post ideas that have become redundant and stale. If you really want to do the world a service, find what you're good at and do that thing.

Regarding major ZM goals:
  • The problems of the world cannot be legislated away.
  • Most of the ideas put forth have already been implemented.
  • Current technology is not capable of fully automating human labor.
  • Forcing widespread top-down change has proven counter-productive compared to bottom-up development

These issue have been discussed point-by-point here: A Dangerously Outdated Zeitgeist
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 [31] 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 ... 124 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!