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Author Topic: A Resource Based Economy  (Read 261741 times)
RealBitcoin
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October 18, 2015, 06:05:36 PM
 #2201


Read my previous post, right above your where I explained that the Universe and entropy makes is clear that we are evolving towards decentralization.

This is a fact. Some structures might evolve in between as a coincidence, but the long term tendency is decentralization in every shape or form.

So the perpetual power of the current elite is only an illusion, nobody will be absolute powerholder in the future, this can already been seen be earlier absolute monarchies vs. current pseudo democracies, the power structure is less concentrated.

And I believe with Internet we can take a 1000-2000 year evolutionary step in just 10-20 years.

We can abandon some of our animal instincts ,but not all of them, because we are animals weather you like it or not, we cant abandon our nature.


I agree with you on all points except that I think you are too optimistic for the near future, I agree the technology is there but not ourselves. The main problems we face as civilization are resources and land, the rest (food, technology, education, etc are easy to fix and provide). Religion even with its fanatics has no real power compared to 500 years ago and it will continue to lessen and be more tolerate of others. We live in a global world where english is adopted almost everywhere, if you ask me there is no need for other languages right now, we can create a more diverse culture if we all share the same language. However, land distribution and resources will always be a problem, countries and governments won't back down easily.

Huge oil reserves in the North Pole has been discovered recently and many nations are in a new cold war since they all claim a part of that territory (Russia claims more than other nations think it's legal for example). This sort of thinking can be applied to you, where do you live? Can you decentralize your property? your land? We all want to live in a nice part of the city or by the sea, how that works? The "elite" and the rich will always accommodate themselves, don't fool yourself. What's more, you and I will do it in a second, that's what life is, surviving, getting ahead in every aspect. If you think you are not like that, wait until you have children, I've never known anyone with children that didn't expect them to "do" better in life, success is measured like that for 99.9% of the people. This is a cruel world, materialistic in every aspect, without a certain amount of money or resources like shelter, water or food you are dead. And you need much more than that actually to be confortable in this age.

Ok you have apoint, land and physical property will be a bit more delicate issue, but I`m sure people will find a good "humanitarian way" to do it.

But what I`m saying is that most of the assets in the future, we will have it digitally.


You don't need 1000's of cattles, hectares of hectares of land, nor 1000's of workers to survive?

We will have robots, we will have global trading, etc...


All you will have as posessions, is your online PC , digital data (books, movies, art, songs, or other IP) , digital assets via our cryptocurrencies, and accounts to various services on the internet. And you wont need anything else.

You could order food, order clothes, order any physical item via the internet, you can already do it now... Cheesy

If you really think about it, the concept of ownership will change in the future, but it will be exciting. Cheesy


You could call this minimalist capitalism, or digital capitalism. Whatever, but it's still capitalism.

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October 18, 2015, 06:26:59 PM
 #2202


Sorry, but you are just a clueless idiot with no idea about the words that you are using. And no, you are not an intellectual.
Again, capitalism has a very narrow definition, and not the nonsense about voluntarism that you're spouting.

I already rebutted your price-control examples: they are not examples of private business-to private business dealings.


Ok so you cannot comprehend the concept of capitalism and start insulting, very intellectual of you.

Here so you can understand the huge fallacy, I drawed this nice chart, of the cost of 1 piece of bread.



You complain about that businesses can set the price amongst eachother, but you fail the realize the monstruous influence that the government has over the prices, here is an example if 1 piece of bread:



You complain about the liberty of the poor baker to set a profit margin of 0.15$ for himself, yet you fail to see that most profit goes to the government.

Plus every single layer of cost of 1 bread is taxed: insurance, license fee, land tax, import tax, tax cost of 1 employee, minimal wage, VAT tax, and every other bullshit.

Indirect control, but its monstruously big, and you still cherry pick me about the lack of direct control.

See the bakery owner cannot sell his bread below 1.06$, because he would go bankrupt, that is price control.

If there werent VAT tax, he could sell it for 0.85$.


BONUS: Even that tiny 0.15$ profit is taxed with the income tax, social security and other bullshit, so the owners earn even less.

This is not a free market Cheesy Cheesy

THE GOVERNMENT TAKES AT LEAST 80% OF THE VALUE OF THE BREAD AND PUTS IT INTO THE POCKETS OF CORRUPT POLITICIANS, HOW IS THIS CAPITALISM? Cheesy

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October 18, 2015, 06:41:06 PM
 #2203

So, RealBitcoin, which part of the definition of capitalism below relates to voluntarism?

Capitalism = " An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development occurs through the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market. ", thefreedictionary.com.

You still don't get it. I never actually disagreed with you. I'm merely asking you to prove your point with respect to the definition of "free market" which we are discussing.

Again, the definition deals with "private businesses", and not a baker selling bread to the end consumer. So when the bakery (the business) buys flour from another business, where is the Gov. setting/controlling the price?

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October 18, 2015, 07:05:36 PM
 #2204

So, RealBitcoin, which part of the definition of capitalism below relates to voluntarism?

Capitalism = " An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development occurs through the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market. ", thefreedictionary.com.

You still don't get it. I never actually disagreed with you. I'm merely asking you to prove your point with respect to the definition of "free market" which we are discussing.

Again, the definition deals with "private businesses", and not a baker selling bread to the end consumer. So when the bakery (the business) buys flour from another business, where is the Gov. setting/controlling the price?

You fail to see the forest from the tree.

That is a narrow definition, but capitalism as a philosophy can't be summed up in 2 sentences. It is a complex philosophy and economic system.

The basis is private property, that is correct, but that is only the basis and there are other principles. Here is a more explanatory definition from Wikipedia:

Quote
Capitalism is an economic system in which trade, industry, and the means of production are privately owned and operated via profit and loss calculation (price signals) through the price system (but we have tons of state owned companies and state owned land that is not used for anything, a waste).[1][2] Central characteristics of capitalism include private property (with huge property taxes), capital accumulation (if you can survive the tax system), wage labour (where the government steals half of your wage) and, in some situations, fully competitive markets. (where we have licensing system and only 2-3 companies are allowed to compete + 1000s of regulations)[3][4] In a capitalist economy, the parties to a transaction typically determine the prices at which they exchange assets, goods, and services. (unfortunately pesky minimal wage, regulations and other indirect influences messes up this system)[5]

The degree of competition, the role of intervention and regulation, and the scope of state ownership vary across different models of capitalism.[6] Economists, political economists, and historians have adopted different perspectives in their analyses of capitalism and have recognized various forms of it in practice. These include laissez-faire or free market capitalism (this is what I want), welfare capitalism, crony capitalism, corporatism, "third way" social democracy and state capitalism (whereas we have a mix of corporatism and welfare capitalism currently with elements of socialism, it's a perfect mixture like the monster from Frankenstein). Each model has employed varying degrees of dependency on free markets, public ownership, obstacles to free competition, and inclusion of state-sanctioned social policies.

The extent to which different markets are free, as well as the rules defining private property, become matters of politics and of policy (it should not be, otherwise it's a phony system). Many states have a mixed economy, which combines elements of both capitalism and centrally planned economics (because Adam Smith and Karl Marx were best buddies, let's mix fire and gasoline next time).[7] Capitalism has existed under many forms of government, in many different times, places, and cultures.[8] Following the decline of mercantilism (it never declined, just look at the huge import/export taxes, and trade regulations), mixed capitalist systems (there are no good mixed systems, thats like mixing potable water with cyanide and drinking it) became dominant in the Western world and continue to spread.[9]

I`ve put in red the important definitions and characteristics, while the text in blue are my comments of it, what we actually have today. So read it through.

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October 18, 2015, 07:17:21 PM
 #2205

So, RealBitcoin, which part of the definition of capitalism below relates to voluntarism?

Capitalism = " An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development occurs through the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market. ", thefreedictionary.com.

You still don't get it. I never actually disagreed with you. I'm merely asking you to prove your point with respect to the definition of "free market" which we are discussing.

Again, the definition deals with "private businesses", and not a baker selling bread to the end consumer. So when the bakery (the business) buys flour from another business, where is the Gov. setting/controlling the price?

You fail to see the forest from the tree.
The basis is private property, that is correct, but that is only the basis and there are other principles. Here is a more explanatory definition from Wikipedia

Fail to see what exactly? I'm merely stating the definition and asking you where the voluntarism is. I'm also asking you where the Gov. controls the price set between two private businesses - which so far you seem reluctant to answer; why is that?

So the basis is "private property", eh? Let's see what the definition say!

"private property" = " land or belongings owned by a person or group and kept for their exclusive use ", thefreedictionary.com, my emphasis.

So much for voluntarism and non-aggression - LOL!

Anything else you'd like rebutted?

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October 18, 2015, 07:22:29 PM
 #2206


Fail to see what exactly? I'm merely stating the definition and asking you where the voluntarism is. I'm also asking you where the Gov. controls the price set between two private businesses - which so far you seem reluctant to answer; why is that?

So the basis is "private property", eh? Let's see what the definition say!

"private property" = " land or belongings owned by a person or group and kept for their exclusive use ", thefreedictionary.com, my emphasis.

So much for voluntarism and non-aggression - LOL!

Anything else you'd like rebutted?

Well if your only knowledge about capitalism is dictionary definitions, then better go open a book about it and read it through, because as I said, dictionary definitions often cherry pick certain characteristics  and fail to address others.

Start reading here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire

Laissez-faire or free market capitalism, the system where there is no government involvment in the economy. Proclaimed by Adam Smith and other famous economists.

Free market = Voluntary trading, with no imposal of taxes/regulations or other obstacle economic laws.

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October 18, 2015, 07:26:03 PM
 #2207

Communism = Centrally planned economy = Only FED prints money.
Capitalism = Free Market/Free competition = Many banks print money.

Wake up! We are living in a communistic system.
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October 18, 2015, 07:29:56 PM
 #2208


Fail to see what exactly? I'm merely stating the definition and asking you where the voluntarism is. I'm also asking you where the Gov. controls the price set between two private businesses - which so far you seem reluctant to answer; why is that?

So the basis is "private property", eh? Let's see what the definition say!

"private property" = " land or belongings owned by a person or group and kept for their exclusive use ", thefreedictionary.com, my emphasis.

So much for voluntarism and non-aggression - LOL!

Anything else you'd like rebutted?

 because as I said, dictionary definitions often cherry pick certain characteristics  and fail to address others.

Yet, Webster's definition of "free market",
"an economic market or system in which prices are based on competition among private businesses and not controlled by a government",
was "pretty much spot on", according to you.

So where, according to that definition, is the Gov. controlling prices set between private businesses?

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October 18, 2015, 07:36:42 PM
 #2209

Communism = Centrally planned economy = Only FED prints money.
Capitalism = Free Market/Free competition = Many banks print money.

Wake up! We are living in a communistic system.

Nope.

Communism = Centrally planned economy = Only FED prints money.
Capitalism = Free Market/Free competition = Many banks could print money, and people would have choice of using the one that they like, including Bitcoin, that is a non-bank currency, and it's not printed.

So

Free Market Capitalism = Freedom of Choice (through competition)
Crony Capitalism = Little freedom of choice, choose between 2-3 oligarchs  (current system)
Communism = Total Slavery

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October 18, 2015, 07:49:41 PM
 #2210


Fail to see what exactly? I'm merely stating the definition and asking you where the voluntarism is. I'm also asking you where the Gov. controls the price set between two private businesses - which so far you seem reluctant to answer; why is that?

So the basis is "private property", eh? Let's see what the definition say!

"private property" = " land or belongings owned by a person or group and kept for their exclusive use ", thefreedictionary.com, my emphasis.

So much for voluntarism and non-aggression - LOL!

Anything else you'd like rebutted?

 because as I said, dictionary definitions often cherry pick certain characteristics  and fail to address others.

Yet, Webster's definition of "free market",
"an economic market or system in which prices are based on competition among private businesses and not controlled by a government",
was "pretty much spot on", according to you.

So where, according to that definition, is the Gov. controlling prices set between private businesses?

Ah man,you are a hopeless case. You only read the news too like reading the headlines?

Read the content not the headline. I`m not saying dictionaries are false, but if you only look at the narrowest definition, then you will never understand it.

There are books about capitalism that are 200-300 pages long yet you push me a 2 sentence definition, as if that would be the only principle that counts.



It's a very dishonest cherry picking method for a debate, but let's see I can be dishonest too , let me cherry pick something:


https://www.thevenusproject.com/en/about/the-venus-project

Quote
The Venus Project is an organization that proposes a feasible plan of action for social change, one that works towards a peaceful and sustainable global civilization. It outlines an alternative to strive toward where human rights are no longer paper proclamations but a way of life.

...

The Venus Project calls for a straightforward approach to the redesign of a culture, in which the age-old inadequacies of war, poverty, hunger, debt, environmental degradation and unnecessary human suffering are viewed not only as avoidable, but totally unacceptable.

Compared to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_International

Quote
The Communist International, abbreviated as Comintern and also known as the Third International (1919–1943), was an international communist organization that advocated world communism. The International intended to fight "by all available means, including armed force, for the overthrow of the international bourgeoisie and for the creation of an international Soviet republic as a transition stage to the complete abolition of the State."[1]


See it's identical, both the COMINTERN and the RBE want a global stateless society where the global resources are managed by the communities and shared equally.

Hahaha the hidden communist agenda is discovered....



See I can also cherry pick and compare your RBE to COMINTERN and see little differennce, but I`m sure your RBE is other than that.

So you realize why content is important, and to not overconcentrate on headlines, because it make your movement look very bad, as many people have bad experiences with communism, including myself.

So you need to detail your plan, to avoid being labeled as communist. The same way then I say capitalism is the only way to go, you label me a corporatist, when I`m not.

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October 18, 2015, 08:08:29 PM
 #2211

RealBitcoin,

you are forgetting that you yourself agreed with its definition,
"an economic market or system in which prices are based on competition among private businesses and not controlled by a government" -
"pretty much spot on", you said - thereby putting the onus on you to prove that the current paradigm is not a free market according to the definition.

So again, where's the Gov. controlling prices between private businesses?

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October 27, 2015, 09:49:08 PM
 #2212

Mr. RBE (Resource Based Economy): By using the scientific method, we conclude that the train is heading straight off the cliff.
Mr. Free-Market: Nono, here on board, commerce is great; we even have a guy selling over-the-cliff insurance.

Mr. Free-Market: Magnus Carlsen is worth millions as a chess player.
Mr. RBE: A 10-cent computer easily beats him.

Mr. Free-Market: I need to buy Bitcoins because everyone else is buying them.
Mr. RBE: Bitcoin wastes huge amounts of energy on useless hash calculations.

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October 28, 2015, 12:47:59 PM
 #2213

Where is this all about?
Is it about on the resource economy??
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December 09, 2015, 01:50:53 AM
 #2214

Resource Based Economy = Futuristic Communism 2.0 Fetish

It is a horrible theory that makes no sense, and there is no concievable way to implement it without gulags and tyrrany, because people will not give away their possessions.

Do you want to create gulags RBE supporters?

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December 09, 2015, 11:46:47 PM
 #2215

because people will not give away their possessions.

But you're wrong, as people, even in this paradigm, give to charity and their time to various projects of interest, such as Linux. Now, imagine instead, if people were free to pursue their interest that actually work a positive change in society, without fear of not having shelter or food, they would, left and right, volunteer to be a part and learn new exciting things.

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December 10, 2015, 04:37:53 PM
 #2216

Money That Rots - Freicoin & Demurrage

Sylvio Gesell's idea from a hundred years ago has been tested with success, then it was shut down by the Austrian government. One modern rendition of the idea is Freicoin based on Bitcoin, but with demurrage (i.e. rotting). Its one of the most compelling ideas ever in economics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWQbN40XypI
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December 11, 2015, 06:51:44 PM
 #2217

because people will not give away their possessions.

But you're wrong, as people, even in this paradigm, give to charity and their time to various projects of interest, such as Linux. Now, imagine instead, if people were free to pursue their interest that actually work a positive change in society, without fear of not having shelter or food, they would, left and right, volunteer to be a part and learn new exciting things.

But i`m not talking about voluntary donation to your idols, I`m talking about forced confiscation of posessions.

You know like the commies like to do: steal land, steal houses, steal businesses, steal resources.


Donation to charity =/= Armed robbery

just as

Voluntary Sex =/= Rape

and so on...


The element of force is the immoral part of it.

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December 12, 2015, 12:43:03 AM
 #2218

RealBitcoin, sorry, but you have been misinformed, as an RBE is not about stealing from people, but about utilizing the scientific method and automation of labour - for social concern - to provide for people, with the necessities of life, and without a price tag, and to beware people of the devastating effects of free-market capitalism, its inherent inefficiency and instability, in order to move people's minds away from the notion of mindless possessions (property), towards a sharing community, for sustainability and efficiency.

Why are libertarians spouting the same nonsense as Stefan Molyneux; can't they reason for themselves?

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December 12, 2015, 01:46:37 AM
 #2219

RealBitcoin, sorry, but you have been misinformed, as an RBE is not about stealing from people, but about utilizing the scientific method and automation of labour - for social concern - to provide for people, with the necessities of life, and without a price tag, and to beware people of the devastating effects of free-market capitalism, its inherent inefficiency and instability, in order to move people's minds away from the notion of mindless possessions (property), towards a sharing community, for sustainability and efficiency.

Why are libertarians spouting the same nonsense as Stefan Molyneux; can't they reason for themselves?

People won't give up their property ever. Deal with it. It's a biological implementation of human nature.

Humans need resources to survive, and they need it near to them, so private property emerged naturally.


Yout talk about private property as if it were a demon, yet you fail to regognize that without it, you would not be here spewing your nonsense.



What you are advocating will probably cause another 200 million people to die in genocige, gulags and famine. Sorry but centralized communism already failed many times.


Repackaging the same shit in nicer package and spraying it with perfume on it wont change it. It will be the same big pile of shit.

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December 12, 2015, 04:26:22 PM
 #2220

RealBitcoin, and along with the notion of property over land came wars over it, hence the creation of nations and states, to protect it, only to become the tool of free-market forces, to wield and use it and to gain a differential advantage over competitors - which unsurprisingly is exactly what we have today.

One can only wonder how the first settlers felt when seemingly untouched land was being claimed by heavily-armed thugs ready to defend it as theirs. But you can be sure as hell that they didn't consider it theirs or others, but rather as a sense of urgency and necessity to sustain life - which the RBE paradigm of automation and robotics renders meaningless.

It's only ignorance on your part to draw a connection between an RBE and Stalin's Russia, where none exists. I too can make stupid connections: North Korea trades freely with other nations and considers its citizens property; therefore, free-market capitalism is responsible for the suffering there.

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