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Author Topic: A Resource Based Economy  (Read 282361 times)
grondilu
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November 08, 2012, 09:30:52 AM
 #1281

This change in values must begins with education.  With good, proper and sane education, everyone can understand the principles..  This is one planet, we are one speicies, and must change our personal value to be able to acheive changes that will allow humanity to survive the long run !

I'm gonna be a bit provocative here, but here I go:

Why do you care so much about humanity surviving in the long run??  You will probably be dead anyway.

For instance, there is a serious hypothesis that decline of fertility might worsen in coming centuries so that humanity might vanish "peacefully".  Is that really a bad thing?  Nothing is supposed to be eternal.


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November 08, 2012, 01:16:38 PM
 #1282

This change in values must begins with education.  With good, proper and sane education, everyone can understand the principles..  This is one planet, we are one speicies, and must change our personal value to be able to acheive changes that will allow humanity to survive the long run !

I'm gonna be a bit provocative here, but here I go:

Why do you care so much about humanity surviving in the long run??  You will probably be dead anyway.

For instance, there is a serious hypothesis that decline of fertility might worsen in coming centuries so that humanity might vanish "peacefully".  Is that really a bad thing?  Nothing is supposed to be eternal.




Reminds me of the Green Day song Armitage Shanks...  Roll Eyes
Or any black metal.  I can relate!   Cheesy
But, as imperfect as humanity may be, it CAN be viewed as a step toward something much better.  Would you rather advance directly to that step, or start all over again?  I know, i know -- it doesn't matter to any single individual... But apparently it does.
Are you familiar with Tipler's Omega Point Theory?

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Crypt_Current
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November 08, 2012, 01:20:34 PM
 #1283

This is why a shift in personal value is needed, planet-wide..  This change in values must begins with education.  With good, proper and sane education, everyone can understand the principles..  This is one planet, we are one speicies, and must change our personal value to be able to acheive changes that will allow humanity to survive the long run !

Must be done before it's too late..

The single most exploited rhetoric which led to the most horrific nightmares of human history. Add "one nation" to it to make the flavor stronger.

As long as you define what "sane" and "good" is, I'm fine with it. Please, take my kids as well.

You have evidently left your skepticism behind, or you were never introduced to it. I'm assuming you will tend to use the word "science" whenever you assume you are not talking to someone with proper "authority". Ah right, here it comes...

That's why I dont lose too much time arguing, I prefer to do my research and trt my best at educating young minds that have'nt been too much corrupted yet !

Tell me what you are researching exactly...

No, what is needed is just mass-education based on plain-science, evidence, and what's actually concidered true !

The scientific method, there is no almost, maybe, but.. there is just plain-simple-fact

Sooo... Please show me the scientific evidence behind your assertions. Or any assertion by TZM for that matter. And what will you mass-educate? What is considered true, by whom?

What is the scientific method by the way? Which school of thought are you talking about? Is it well-defined? Where does it come from? Can you scientifically prove the scientific method?

If you did really want to describe it thoroughly, you would find out that you actually don't know what you mean by "the scientific method". There is science, which is the honest pursuit of truth. And then there is academia, and the heuristics they use. The method itself is pretty much arbitrary actually, and dependent on the specific branch of science and school of thought.

And, dude, with scientific method, everything is "almost", "maybe" and "but". It's the one thing that separates science from religion. "Plain simple facts" is the defining characteristic of dogma. Go read about philosophy of science. While at it, read Bakunin as well, as a few hundred years old criticism of the movements that are "based on science" (he actually directed it towards Marxists, but will apply to TZM just fine, you'll see.)

Oh, I see, you are more enlighten than the hundreds of thousand folks in ZM ?

What an enlightened comment...


You seem to be looking for specifics -- One is teaching real economic alternatives such as the Austrian School.

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myrkul
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November 08, 2012, 01:32:19 PM
 #1284

You seem to be looking for specifics -- One is teaching real economic alternatives such as the Austrian School.

Which is funny, since it runs directly opposite to the rest of the stuff you've mentioned...

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Lethn
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November 08, 2012, 01:38:37 PM
 #1285

Hey guys, I just thought of a brilliant idea, why don't we let children learn whatever the hell they want and form their own opinions instead of force feed them bullshit from either side? Because I've got to tell you, I've been on the receiving end of that and it's exceptionally unpleasant when morons tell you to learn something or accept it without giving any reasoning behind it.
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November 08, 2012, 01:40:32 PM
 #1286

Hey guys, I just thought of a brilliant idea, why don't we let children learn whatever the hell they want and form their own opinions instead of force feed them bullshit from either side?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unschooling

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Crypt_Current
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November 08, 2012, 01:44:09 PM
 #1287

You seem to be looking for specifics -- One is teaching real economic alternatives such as the Austrian School.

Which is funny, since it runs directly opposite to the rest of the stuff you've mentioned...

Which stuff, and how so?  Seriously, I am honestly curious, because I am learning.

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Lethn
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November 08, 2012, 01:45:27 PM
 #1288

Hey guys, I just thought of a brilliant idea, why don't we let children learn whatever the hell they want and form their own opinions instead of force feed them bullshit from either side?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unschooling

After having to deal with the stupidity of conventional schooling yep, this is exactly what I do now and it's amazing how much I've learned in the last couple of years compared to the several years I was in school.
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November 08, 2012, 01:47:17 PM
 #1289

Hey guys, I just thought of a brilliant idea, why don't we let children learn whatever the hell they want and form their own opinions instead of force feed them bullshit from either side? Because I've got to tell you, I've been on the receiving end of that and it's exceptionally unpleasant when morons tell you to learn something or accept it without giving any reasoning behind it.

Came here to say something along these lines. Actually that's what I had in mind while mentioning Bakunin.

While at it, you can think about removing the labels, categories and duties of people involved with learning, and ultimately get rid of the stigma surrounding "education" altogether.


Very interesting, thank you.
myrkul
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November 08, 2012, 01:54:40 PM
 #1290

You seem to be looking for specifics -- One is teaching real economic alternatives such as the Austrian School.

Which is funny, since it runs directly opposite to the rest of the stuff you've mentioned...

Which stuff, and how so?  Seriously, I am honestly curious, because I am learning.

Austrian Economics runs counter to Communism, and explains why it fails.

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Crypt_Current
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November 08, 2012, 02:06:24 PM
 #1291

You seem to be looking for specifics -- One is teaching real economic alternatives such as the Austrian School.

Which is funny, since it runs directly opposite to the rest of the stuff you've mentioned...

Which stuff, and how so?  Seriously, I am honestly curious, because I am learning.

Austrian Economics runs counter to Communism, and explains why it fails.

Yeah as I stated earlier, I firmly do not believe ZGM is communism.  It shares some seemingly common characteristics, but the main difference between the two is the ZGM (more specificly, the Venus Project) using much more advanced technology than anything available during Marx's time (all the way up to the 1990s).
I've said this before in other threads, but I'll say it again here:  The technological concept instantiated by Bitcoin and other similar cryptocurrencies is so novel and unlike anything else the human race has ever seen, that its existence will facilitate massive transformations never experienced before in human history.

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myrkul
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November 08, 2012, 02:15:59 PM
 #1292

You seem to be looking for specifics -- One is teaching real economic alternatives such as the Austrian School.

Which is funny, since it runs directly opposite to the rest of the stuff you've mentioned...

Which stuff, and how so?  Seriously, I am honestly curious, because I am learning.

Austrian Economics runs counter to Communism, and explains why it fails.

Yeah as I stated earlier, I firmly do not believe ZGM is communism.  It shares some seemingly common characteristics, but the main difference between the two is the ZGM (more specificly, the Venus Project) using much more advanced technology than anything available during Marx's time (all the way up to the 1990s).
Adding "techno-" to a failed system does not magically make it work.

I've said this before in other threads, but I'll say it again here:  The technological concept instantiated by Bitcoin and other similar cryptocurrencies is so novel and unlike anything else the human race has ever seen, that its existence will facilitate massive transformations never experienced before in human history.
Yes, but It's not going to do away with money.

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Crypt_Current
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November 08, 2012, 02:23:27 PM
 #1293

You seem to be looking for specifics -- One is teaching real economic alternatives such as the Austrian School.

Which is funny, since it runs directly opposite to the rest of the stuff you've mentioned...

Which stuff, and how so?  Seriously, I am honestly curious, because I am learning.

Austrian Economics runs counter to Communism, and explains why it fails.

Yeah as I stated earlier, I firmly do not believe ZGM is communism.  It shares some seemingly common characteristics, but the main difference between the two is the ZGM (more specificly, the Venus Project) using much more advanced technology than anything available during Marx's time (all the way up to the 1990s).
Adding "techno-" to a failed system does not magically make it work.

I've said this before in other threads, but I'll say it again here:  The technological concept instantiated by Bitcoin and other similar cryptocurrencies is so novel and unlike anything else the human race has ever seen, that its existence will facilitate massive transformations never experienced before in human history.
Yes, but It's not going to do away with money.

Quick reading does not beget sound understanding.
That said, I'll remind you:  It is not my personal goal to "do away with money".  I don't even think that's what we're talking about here.  This is actually one point where I would sharply disagree with most ZGers, and all hippies (shudder... hippies)
Also:  ZGM IS NOT ANYTHING LIKE COMMUNISM!!!!!!!
Can you hear me now?

Other than your short and overly general pointer to your seemingly closed-off part of your brain that equates ZGM with communism (displayed in your comment above), I would ask that you please give some specific reasons / comparisons showing exactly how ZGM resembles communism?  Please; there may be something I have not considered.

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November 08, 2012, 02:26:44 PM
 #1294


Adding "techno-" to a failed system does not magically make it work.


Isn't this sort of what Washington and those colonial fruits did with the democracy of the ancient greeks/romans?  But I'll give this to you:  If that's the case, it sure is NOT very reassuring.

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November 08, 2012, 02:35:02 PM
 #1295


But thinking that the world population will just ignore their animal drives to get something like a resource based economy going is ludicrous.
You will not be able to get there (and i also said this before) without genetically modifying the entire human species to not be so damn human anymore.


Precisely.  Humans are obsolete.  Thanks for your clarifications.

That is not for humans to decide, i'm afraid...
But in case of RBE i can say that the whole idea does not fit humanity well.


Just curious as to how you came across that bolded tidbit of alleged knowledge there?

I came across it by taking a long hard look at the realityies of human existance.
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November 08, 2012, 02:40:52 PM
 #1296

You seem to be looking for specifics -- One is teaching real economic alternatives such as the Austrian School.

Which is funny, since it runs directly opposite to the rest of the stuff you've mentioned...

Which stuff, and how so?  Seriously, I am honestly curious, because I am learning.

Austrian Economics runs counter to Communism, and explains why it fails.

Yeah as I stated earlier, I firmly do not believe ZGM is communism.  It shares some seemingly common characteristics, but the main difference between the two is the ZGM (more specificly, the Venus Project) using much more advanced technology than anything available during Marx's time (all the way up to the 1990s).
I've said this before in other threads, but I'll say it again here:  The technological concept instantiated by Bitcoin and other similar cryptocurrencies is so novel and unlike anything else the human race has ever seen, that its existence will facilitate massive transformations never experienced before in human history.

I hope you know the Venus Movement failed because of human social bonds.
Technology is not a solution because people work in certain ways. You cannot have these kinds of communities in a socially balanced way. It's a psychological problem.

Your theories about the significance of bitcoin in society are completely unrealistical. Bitcoin doesn't change the world, people do. And i don't think most people want to change that much.
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November 08, 2012, 02:41:10 PM
 #1297

Also:  ZGM IS NOT ANYTHING LIKE COMMUNISM!!!!!!!
Can you hear me now?

Other than your short and overly general pointer to your seemingly closed-off part of your brain that equates ZGM with communism (displayed in your comment above), I would ask that you please give some specific reasons / comparisons showing exactly how ZGM resembles communism?  Please; there may be something I have not considered.

It's a type of Communism, by the definition of Communism. Technically, if there will be a State, it's not exactly full Communism but transitional Communism, or if the State is there to stay, it's a type of Socialism that is actually not Communism. No further argument is necessary, you can check out the definitions yourself (preferably from a reputable source) and present your objections.

Marxism is about creating an economy based on science instead of political ideologies and social classes, which would remove inequality and create superabundance (i.e. end of scarcity) which will in turn remove the need for money and finally the State.

Now tell me where ZG differs, and which technological advance have changed this picture. If these people want to be taken seriously, they need to stop distancing themselves from communism and work with Marxist academics to solve problems of Marxism with the technology and science they obviously are so competent with.
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November 08, 2012, 02:47:05 PM
 #1298

Does this not sound like Zeitgeist? "a superabundance of material wealth, allowing for distribution based on need and social relations based on freely associated individuals."

Does this? "a classless, moneyless, and stateless social order structured upon common ownership of the means of production."

Yes, Zeitgeist is communism in another skin. Adding computers and robots does not make a planned economy work.

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November 08, 2012, 02:48:27 PM
 #1299

Hey guys, I just thought of a brilliant idea, why don't we let children learn whatever the hell they want and form their own opinions instead of force feed them bullshit from either side? Because I've got to tell you, I've been on the receiving end of that and it's exceptionally unpleasant when morons tell you to learn something or accept it without giving any reasoning behind it.

Yeah, THERE is a sure-fire way to destroy society...
Let's produce a generation of people whose skills completely do not match societies demand.
You're reasoning from a very privileged position. Not all humans on earth can do just what they like because the whole thing would collapse.
It is not something you could do without brutal consequences.
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November 08, 2012, 02:54:22 PM
 #1300


Adding "techno-" to a failed system does not magically make it work.


Isn't this sort of what Washington and those colonial fruits did with the democracy of the ancient greeks/romans?  But I'll give this to you:  If that's the case, it sure is NOT very reassuring.

Essentially, yes. And we continue to throw technology at democracy even today. I never said democracy wasn't a failed system. Wink After all, it's based on a logical fallacy.

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