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Author Topic: A Resource Based Economy  (Read 261813 times)
BitCoinNutJob
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December 21, 2014, 10:03:58 AM
 #2001

Did anyone post this?

Founder of the zeitgeist movement asks for 3 answers and propositions for the following 3 questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGyKuyGhaE
You think we can have an economy where everything is free?

haha.

You're worse than the the worst of the pinkos.

Depends on what you mean by everything and free.... i can see basic provisions being free in the not too distant future (100 years or whatever). Homeless people/diseased people/people committing petty crime are a pain in the ass for society & rich people cant exploit these types too easy.

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.



Then it will not be free, it will be subsided and if you need to give away 1Billion to a group, you will need to take by force 1.5Billion to an other group

Internet is "free" to receive information resources from, the internet doesnt have to take anything by force to provide this.

I say "free" cause obviously to connect to the internet you have to use some of own personal resources, but its very cheap overall and the highest quality of diverse information available.


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December 21, 2014, 10:28:09 PM
 #2002

OK, at whose expense are you sauntering down the street, and how does this sauntering apply to " possibly enrich themselves at the expense of others"?
Still not the right question. At whose expense were resources just sitting on the shelves during the great depression, there being no purchasing power nor incentive to give those goods away?
OK, then who owns the raw materials, and who owns the bitcoins I control?
"Libertarians" being advocates of private property, isn't that a question for them to answer? Can one own a sequence of bytes?

Hmm.  No meaningful posts.  Only answers questions with more questions.  Has no point, no connection to the discussion other than quoting.  I think we've got a troll here.

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December 23, 2014, 02:52:56 AM
 #2003

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.



Supplied by whom?

Maybe we will create some kind of decentralized basic resource allocation network system, perhaps some rich people wont like it and try to shut it down/control/manipulate and they might have some success but the poor/others will defend it.  Just like how the internet is now.  


Why would rich people not like if, if they don't have to pay for it? Who will be in charge of resource allocation? And where will those resources originate from?

The internet is paid for by capitalist companies and its users. It's not a free resource, and not one provided by the government. It also costs very little, requiring a one time setup (lay cable, install router), instead of continuous hard labor to extract or produce resources.

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December 23, 2014, 02:59:23 AM
 #2004

OK, at whose expense are you sauntering down the street, and how does this sauntering apply to " possibly enrich themselves at the expense of others"?
Still not the right question. At whose expense were resources just sitting on the shelves during the great depression, there being no purchasing power nor incentive to give those goods away?

This doesn't have anything to do with what I was asking.
You said that all capitalism is, is people trying to enrich themselves at the expense of others. I gave you an example of capitalism: I trade my $40 for your video card. Since capitalism is done at the expense of others, you must point out to me at who's expense this trade was done. Sauntering down the street doesn't have anything to do with any of this. If you claim that it does, explain how, don't ask questions.

OK, then who owns the raw materials, and who owns the bitcoins I control?
"Libertarians" being advocates of private property, isn't that a question for them to answer? Can one own a sequence of bytes?

Ok, I'll answer. I own those bitcoins. Those bitcoins are my property. The raw materials I work to create are my property. Yes, I can own a sequence of bits, or more specifically the secret that lets me control those sequence of bits. I own my thoughts and my ideas, the secret securing my private keys being one of them.

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December 23, 2014, 09:04:03 AM
 #2005

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.



Supplied by whom?

Maybe we will create some kind of decentralized basic resource allocation network system, perhaps some rich people wont like it and try to shut it down/control/manipulate and they might have some success but the poor/others will defend it.  Just like how the internet is now.  


Why would rich people not like if, if they don't have to pay for it? Who will be in charge of resource allocation? And where will those resources originate from?

The internet is paid for by capitalist companies and its users. It's not a free resource, and not one provided by the government. It also costs very little, requiring a one time setup (lay cable, install router), instead of continuous hard labor to extract or produce resources.
Quote
Why would rich people not like if, if they don't have to pay for it?

some rich people who rely on manipulating media etc dont like the freedom people have on the internet.  So with a basic resource allocation system people who rely on manipulation of food/housing/water will fight it.

Quote
Who will be in charge of resource allocation?

who is in charge of the information resource allocation on the internet? seems like a bit of everyone?

Quote
And where will those resources originate from?

What i propose would require some revolutionary design like bitcoin but on a even greater scale, maybe we need greater technology first.  With the internet people are incentivised to contribute information resources on many different reward levels (our conversation for example)

With a basic food/housing/water network system the incentives get tricky it seems, got any ideas?  maybe nothing of what i speak of if possible until technology can simplify basic living resources data dramatically.

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December 23, 2014, 12:48:09 PM
 #2006

Did anyone post this?

Founder of the zeitgeist movement asks for 3 answers and propositions for the following 3 questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGyKuyGhaE
You think we can have an economy where everything is free?

haha.

You're worse than the the worst of the pinkos.

Depends on what you mean by everything and free.... i can see basic provisions being free in the not too distant future (100 years or whatever). Homeless people/diseased people/people committing petty crime are a pain in the ass for society & rich people cant exploit these types too easy.

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.



Supplied by whom?

Maybe we will create some kind of decentralized basic resource allocation network system, perhaps some rich people wont like it and try to shut it down/control/manipulate and they might have some success but the poor/others will defend it.  Just like how the internet is now.  

The basic necessities of life are not so different than the luxuries. They are all made of mostly fairly common elements. What differentiates them is intellectual property. Storing and distributing information is the key. Well that, and the ability to threaten the existence of attackers. But that is also intellectual property. Perhaps a decentralized and distributed peacekeeping system would address this need.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
BitCoinNutJob
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December 23, 2014, 02:15:18 PM
 #2007

Did anyone post this?

Founder of the zeitgeist movement asks for 3 answers and propositions for the following 3 questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGyKuyGhaE
You think we can have an economy where everything is free?

haha.

You're worse than the the worst of the pinkos.

Depends on what you mean by everything and free.... i can see basic provisions being free in the not too distant future (100 years or whatever). Homeless people/diseased people/people committing petty crime are a pain in the ass for society & rich people cant exploit these types too easy.

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.



Supplied by whom?

Maybe we will create some kind of decentralized basic resource allocation network system, perhaps some rich people wont like it and try to shut it down/control/manipulate and they might have some success but the poor/others will defend it.  Just like how the internet is now.  

The basic necessities of life are not so different than the luxuries. They are all made of mostly fairly common elements. What differentiates them is intellectual property. Storing and distributing information is the key. Well that, and the ability to threaten the existence of attackers. But that is also intellectual property. Perhaps a decentralized and distributed peacekeeping system would address this need.

Ok so how would this distributed decentralized peacekeeping system look like?  &  Whats the incentive for people to "join" it?

Bitcointalk is my second life (:
cbeast
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December 23, 2014, 02:30:15 PM
 #2008

Did anyone post this?

Founder of the zeitgeist movement asks for 3 answers and propositions for the following 3 questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGyKuyGhaE
You think we can have an economy where everything is free?

haha.

You're worse than the the worst of the pinkos.

Depends on what you mean by everything and free.... i can see basic provisions being free in the not too distant future (100 years or whatever). Homeless people/diseased people/people committing petty crime are a pain in the ass for society & rich people cant exploit these types too easy.

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.



Supplied by whom?

Maybe we will create some kind of decentralized basic resource allocation network system, perhaps some rich people wont like it and try to shut it down/control/manipulate and they might have some success but the poor/others will defend it.  Just like how the internet is now.  

The basic necessities of life are not so different than the luxuries. They are all made of mostly fairly common elements. What differentiates them is intellectual property. Storing and distributing information is the key. Well that, and the ability to threaten the existence of attackers. But that is also intellectual property. Perhaps a decentralized and distributed peacekeeping system would address this need.

Ok so how would this distributed decentralized peacekeeping system look like?  &  Whats the incentive for people to "join" it?
We already have a volunteer military in the US. In fact the US Constitution proscribes a standing army. Many communities have volunteer sheriffs and fire chiefs. Why would people not want to volunteer to serve their communities?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
BitCoinNutJob
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December 23, 2014, 02:55:43 PM
 #2009

Did anyone post this?

Founder of the zeitgeist movement asks for 3 answers and propositions for the following 3 questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGyKuyGhaE
You think we can have an economy where everything is free?

haha.

You're worse than the the worst of the pinkos.

Depends on what you mean by everything and free.... i can see basic provisions being free in the not too distant future (100 years or whatever). Homeless people/diseased people/people committing petty crime are a pain in the ass for society & rich people cant exploit these types too easy.

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.



Supplied by whom?

Maybe we will create some kind of decentralized basic resource allocation network system, perhaps some rich people wont like it and try to shut it down/control/manipulate and they might have some success but the poor/others will defend it.  Just like how the internet is now.  

The basic necessities of life are not so different than the luxuries. They are all made of mostly fairly common elements. What differentiates them is intellectual property. Storing and distributing information is the key. Well that, and the ability to threaten the existence of attackers. But that is also intellectual property. Perhaps a decentralized and distributed peacekeeping system would address this need.

Ok so how would this distributed decentralized peacekeeping system look like?  &  Whats the incentive for people to "join" it?
We already have a volunteer military in the US. In fact the US Constitution proscribes a standing army. Many communities have volunteer sheriffs and fire chiefs. Why would people not want to volunteer to serve their communities?

Ok fair point, not much to add my end i guess i just wish evolution would speed up. I like the idea of living in a RBE. Bitcoin seems like a step towards this so might aswell just support bitcoin atm.

Bitcointalk is my second life (:
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December 23, 2014, 03:03:35 PM
 #2010

Did anyone post this?

Founder of the zeitgeist movement asks for 3 answers and propositions for the following 3 questions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xGyKuyGhaE
You think we can have an economy where everything is free?

haha.

You're worse than the the worst of the pinkos.

Depends on what you mean by everything and free.... i can see basic provisions being free in the not too distant future (100 years or whatever). Homeless people/diseased people/people committing petty crime are a pain in the ass for society & rich people cant exploit these types too easy.

So... For someone who wants to live the life of a monk for example.. if basic life standards are supplied then they have everything they need/want.



Supplied by whom?

Maybe we will create some kind of decentralized basic resource allocation network system, perhaps some rich people wont like it and try to shut it down/control/manipulate and they might have some success but the poor/others will defend it.  Just like how the internet is now.  

The basic necessities of life are not so different than the luxuries. They are all made of mostly fairly common elements. What differentiates them is intellectual property. Storing and distributing information is the key. Well that, and the ability to threaten the existence of attackers. But that is also intellectual property. Perhaps a decentralized and distributed peacekeeping system would address this need.

Ok so how would this distributed decentralized peacekeeping system look like?  &  Whats the incentive for people to "join" it?
We already have a volunteer military in the US. In fact the US Constitution proscribes a standing army. Many communities have volunteer sheriffs and fire chiefs. Why would people not want to volunteer to serve their communities?

Ok fair point, not much to add my end i guess i just wish evolution would speed up. I like the idea of living in a RBE. Bitcoin seems like a step towards this so might aswell just support bitcoin atm.
You got it. A wise man once told me "If you can't go around, sometimes you have to go through." Bitcoin is an energy based economy. It's a stepping stone to where all resources will one day be represented on the blockchain through smart contracts. Its transparency will enable social forces to negotiate fair trading. Eventually, that fair trading will simply become automated.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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December 23, 2014, 03:48:11 PM
 #2011

^

ok very nice explanation seriously!, i wish TZM would just go full on bitcoin i've only heard it briefly mentioned before and it seems like it could be the key transitional technology.

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December 23, 2014, 06:52:47 PM
 #2012

I too am a part of TZM and followed bitcoin before then. It would be interesting to see the role bitcoin has on TZM
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December 25, 2014, 10:25:13 AM
 #2013

I too am a part of TZM and followed bitcoin before then. It would be interesting to see the role bitcoin has on TZM

Ive loosely followed TZM & PJ for a couple years now, they basically dont mention bitcoin much if at all its a shame.  Unless im mistaken the main goal of TZM is to increase the numbers of value shifted people.  Is increasing numbers the best main goal right now?

When ive mentioned bitcoin/crypto to some random TZMers ive had quite a bit of negative reaction along the lines of its just another greed money based system.... which maybe that has some truth in it but come on, we have to think at least a little bit practically to transition.  

If they put out more content on crypto i'd have more trust in TZM.  

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December 25, 2014, 11:34:55 AM
 #2014

If they put out more content on crypto i'd have more trust in TZM.  

Bitcoin, being yet another inefficient product expressing the distrust inherit in a free market, and an RBE, denoting efficiency, trust & the scientific method, are wholly incompatible.
Bitcoin is very efficient and requires very little energy. In fact, Satoshi once powered the entire Bitcoin network by himself. The free market is based on the math of economics. Bitcoin is based on math as well.  Math is universal.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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December 25, 2014, 02:59:25 PM
 #2015

If they put out more content on crypto i'd have more trust in TZM. 

Bitcoin, being yet another inefficient product expressing the distrust inherit in a free market, and an RBE, denoting efficiency, trust & the scientific method, are wholly incompatible.

How is Bitcoin inefficient and not adhering to the principles of the scientific method? The incompatibility lies in that Bitcoin is part of a monetary system and market economy, whereas TZM rejects the monetary system and the market economy entirely. Bitcoin and the blockchain could evolve beyond that though, but only if there's enough people who want that. It all still boils down to the people and what they want. Bitcoin in the end is just a handy tool we can use, but people decide how to use it.

Bitcoin = Gold on steroids
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December 27, 2014, 07:43:45 PM
 #2016

Bitcoin will be finished by the time humanity is ready to stablish an RBU. An RBU implies no private property and no monetary system. We are faaaaar from there so BTC is a good transition tool for now.

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December 27, 2014, 07:59:35 PM
 #2017

If they put out more content on crypto i'd have more trust in TZM.  

Bitcoin, being yet another inefficient product expressing the distrust inherit in a free market, and an RBE, denoting efficiency, trust & the scientific method, are wholly incompatible.
Bitcoin is very efficient and requires very little energy. In fact, Satoshi once powered the entire Bitcoin network by himself. The free market is based on the math of economics. Bitcoin is based on math as well.  Math is universal.

The free market and innovation from the private sector will be more efficient than any public creation. Bitcoin is supposed to be more efficient that the fiat system that is made to give power to the rulers and allow them to lie, cheat and go to war.


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December 28, 2014, 12:43:36 AM
 #2018

tl, dr

recource based economy is really just communism
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December 28, 2014, 01:35:02 AM
 #2019

tl, dr

recource based economy is really just communism
Communism uses money like rubles, pesos, and yuan. RBE doesn't.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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December 28, 2014, 07:56:37 AM
 #2020

Who will be in charge of resource allocation?

who is in charge of the information resource allocation on the internet? seems like a bit of everyone?

Information is not a limited resource (thus people don't consider intellectual property actual "property"). So there is no need to allocate it. An individual can come and take it, and it won't diminish the supply of the original. So it's not a good comparison to actual physical resources.

.
You said that all capitalism is, is people trying to enrich themselves at the expense of others. I gave you an example of capitalism: I trade my $40 for your video card. Since capitalism is done at the expense of others, you must point out to me at who's expense this trade was done.
Actually, i merely added "possibly at the expense of others" to your 'capitalism is just two people trading' ... So, responding to your '$40 for a video card'-hypothesis, how do you know those resources could not be better spent elsewhere, benefitting mankind?

You did actually say that capitalism is something done at the expense of others, since your point is that capitalism is exploitative. And regarding your question, that's not an expense, that's a hypothetical. Plus we know those resources could not be better spent elsewhere, because if they could be, I would be offered more than $40 for it by someone else, or you would have spent that $40 on something you needed more than the card. The very fact that I traded the card for $40, and you traded that $40 for the card, means that we as individuals chose this as the best use of our resources in this situation.


Ok, I'll answer. I own those bitcoins. Those bitcoins are my property. The raw materials I work to create are my property. Yes, I can own a sequence of bits, or more specifically the secret that lets me control those sequence of bits. I own my thoughts and my ideas, the secret securing my private keys being one of them.

Thanks, now you only have to define 'own' and 'private property' for me to properly respond to your claims.

Own as in I have control over it, can claim objective ethical right to it (I used my own body and mind to create or obtain them without forcing them out of anyone else), and have the support and agreement of society that these coins belong to me, since those I am involved with agree that I obtained them fairly.

Private property as in things that I can rightfully claim to belong to me. That I own.

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