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[stormbounty]

Signature: IFLCjMrIJCAbORRE2rbhd3eQ16J2LUCJT3NpDfhFFeogAHpQvQd+2beiXQbqF+0hfnelQJZI+0WwQ7Znbqxt8Q4=

Message: Today is June 29, 2023.  I, user stormbounty on Bitcointalk,  send 0.008 Bitcoin from the signing address to WWM's address bc1qkf6knnzvnu2h47g8wa7h4hx7k3vm8tcqyc27xy Please help.

Address: bc1q7vr2ge5392zp3rwn6q60skp98dlce7au8qaztv

The signature is verified and the message proves that you own bc1q7vr2ge5392zp3rwn6q60skp98dlce7au8qaztv, but no transaction has been made from that address to bc1qkf6knnzvnu2h47g8wa7h4hx7k3vm8tcqyc27xy.
The bc1qkf6knnzvnu2h47g8wa7h4hx7k3vm8tcqyc27xy has received 0.007 BTC in a transaction including 7 inputs and none of those 7 addresses is the address you signed message from.

One of the seven wallets: https://mempool.space/address/bc1qzfmfzgtwyaqk6l0tedrx8kpe09xmxvs9l4j5ya

Transaction ID: https://mempool.space/tx/cda4514ee5262e2903b35d2d9030fba0c6bc1897237bb689dda913a447678d49


Signature to PROVE I OWN the 7 contributing wallets too-

Address: bc1qzfmfzgtwyaqk6l0tedrx8kpe09xmxvs9l4j5ya
Sign: HxYrUN2YHIEUbAgpCUCsBhnP6ixWjC4Ev1fqsdbm3pZ5NyQUKDclGKnJVHKISvSP8V7GnPwFhRtuUFb GGfbmIF8=
Message: I suceeded, please help

[1714493719]

1714493719

[o_e_l_e_o]

Signature: IFLCjMrIJCAbORRE2rbhd3eQ16J2LUCJT3NpDfhFFeogAHpQvQd+2beiXQbqF+0hfnelQJZI+0WwQ7Znbqxt8Q4=

Message: Today is June 29, 2023.  I, user stormbounty on Bitcointalk,  send 0.008 Bitcoin from the signing address to WWM's address bc1qzfmfzgtwyaqk6l0tedrx8kpe09xmxvs9l4j5ya Please help.

Address: bc1q7vr2ge5392zp3rwn6q60skp98dlce7au8qaztv

Verified.

The address above (bc1q7vr2ge5392zp3rwn6q60skp98dlce7au8qaztv) spends its output in this transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/1d686510d1cf9d0f2445fac24b15d8e679f17b0a3291d87c7fc41dc95e4f168b

This transaction is a Tx0 from either Samourai or Sparrow, enrolling the coins in to Whirlpool coinjoin's 0.001 BTC pool. He creates seven such outputs ready to be coinjoined, one change output, and one output paying the coinjoin fee of 5,000 sats. The OP_RETURN output is part of the Whirlpool protocol to allow the coordinator to know which outputs to enroll in a coinjoin.

For some reason, before any of these outputs are actually coinjoined, he instead consolidates them all in a single transaction depositing 0.007 BTC to Whirlwind (bc1qkf6knnzvnu2h47g8wa7h4hx7k3vm8tcqyc27xy), with one additional change output.

I can also verify the signature two posts above from the intermediate address bc1qzfmfzgtwyaqk6l0tedrx8kpe09xmxvs9l4j5ya.

[stormbounty]

Signature: IFLCjMrIJCAbORRE2rbhd3eQ16J2LUCJT3NpDfhFFeogAHpQvQd+2beiXQbqF+0hfnelQJZI+0WwQ7Znbqxt8Q4=

Message: Today is June 29, 2023.  I, user stormbounty on Bitcointalk,  send 0.008 Bitcoin from the signing address to WWM's address bc1qzfmfzgtwyaqk6l0tedrx8kpe09xmxvs9l4j5ya Please help.

Address: bc1q7vr2ge5392zp3rwn6q60skp98dlce7au8qaztv

Verified.

The address above (bc1q7vr2ge5392zp3rwn6q60skp98dlce7au8qaztv) spends its output in this transaction: https://mempool.space/tx/1d686510d1cf9d0f2445fac24b15d8e679f17b0a3291d87c7fc41dc95e4f168b

This transaction is a Tx0 from either Samourai or Sparrow, enrolling the coins in to Whirlpool coinjoin's 0.001 BTC pool. He creates seven such outputs ready to be coinjoined, one change output, and one output paying the coinjoin fee of 5,000 sats. The OP_RETURN output is part of the Whirlpool protocol to allow the coordinator to know which outputs to enroll in a coinjoin.

For some reason, before any of these outputs are actually coinjoined, he instead consolidates them all in a single transaction depositing 0.007 BTC to Whirlwind (bc1qkf6knnzvnu2h47g8wa7h4hx7k3vm8tcqyc27xy), with one additional change output.

I can also verify the signature two posts above from the intermediate address bc1qzfmfzgtwyaqk6l0tedrx8kpe09xmxvs9l4j5ya.

Thank you so much, it was sparrow wallet, their mixing service was wasting time, sparrow and samourai admins said my internet speed was too slow and that I should wait 12-24 hours to try again so i decided to use something faster (whirlwind.money) I sent from sparrow premix wallet, now here i am, days letter, begging to be treated like a human being that is not very tech savvy.

[mikeywith]

now here i am, days letter, begging to be treated like a human being that is not very tech savvy.

The count starts today, in the past couple of days all you had is the guarantee letter which doesn't prove much as I explained in my previous post, it's only NOW that you were able to sign the message proving your ownership of one of the coinjoin addresses.

Now, let me clear some things for you, in a perfect world, Whirlwind would spend the time and effort to verify both your letter of guarantee and your ownership of the depositing address, but this isn't a perfect world, they could still ignore you given that you lost your note private key and there was a clear warning not to.

Reflecting on similar situations that happen to centralized exchanges where a user deposits a non-tradable coin or the wrong coin to the correct address, the exchange can still extract those coins but many chose not to do, as that involves time and effort, they already told you to deposit x and you went ahead to deposit y, why should they attend to that for free? so some of them will charge you a fee to fix your mistake, and some of them will just cancel you altogether.

Now it's all up to Whirlwind and how would they want to handle your issue case, in my opinion, they should attend to it, verify the transactions, and charge you a small fee (upon your approval before proceeding with anything), if you refuse to pay the fee, they should just ignore you and dismiss your support ticket, at least this is what I would do.

and now comes the important part, your behavior is not helping, I understand that this money could be all you got, and it's so important for you to get it, but what do you get from calling them names and all that? it will only make things worse for you, after all, they could ignore everybody's opinion, don't bother with checking any signature, and simply stick to their rules which you have agreed upon before using their service, you lost your private key -- your funds are gone.

I suggest you edit your posts, take a deep breath, send the signed message to their email along with the letter of guarantee, and then wait a few days before posting anything.

[JollyGood]

It is very difficult to provide any better advice than this considering the current situation stormbounty finds himself in. The fact he has crossed the line as far as his choice of words are concerned is certainly not helping him. Now that he has managed to sign a message the best thing he can do is to wait a few days for Whirlwind to look in to the matter for him.

The previous days do not count but as he has signed a message, maybe it should start from now.

~snip~
and now comes the important part, your behavior is not helping, I understand that this money could be all you got, and it's so important for you to get it, but what do you get from calling them names and all that? it will only make things worse for you, after all, they could ignore everybody's opinion, don't bother with checking any signature, and simply stick to their rules which you have agreed upon before using their service, you lost your private key -- your funds are gone.

I suggest you edit your posts, take a deep breath, send the signed message to their email along with the letter of guarantee, and then wait a few days before posting anything.

[dkbit98]

in order to steal money with plausible deniability.

Let's be realistic, nobody stole your money here, you sent it yourself, nobody asked for you to send anything.
Yes I am telling you that you are wasting time doing something that doesn't make any sense, but you can do whatever you want.
If you can't handle simple things than I am not sure you should be using mixers and bitcoin, since you obviously talk a lot with crypto support teams (CM, samourai, sparrow), so this is not your first rodeo.

And for what it's worth my opinion stands, if you lose the private key, you lose the funds. At this point I'm not even entirely sure what to make of you, or your situation. You said you just sent them a private key to your personal wallet over email - very bad..

Again, NOBODY asked him to send private keys to anyone, so he has a habit of doing stuff like this on his own.

[stormbounty]

It is very difficult to provide any better advice that this considering the current situation stormbounty finds himself in. The fact he has crossed the line as far as his choice of words are concerned is certainly not helping him. Now that he has managed to sign a message the best thing he can do is to wait a few days for Whirlwind to look in to the matter for him.

The previous days do not count but as he has signed a message, maybe it should start from now.

~snip~
and now comes the important part, your behavior is not helping, I understand that this money could be all you got, and it's so important for you to get it, but what do you get from calling them names and all that? it will only make things worse for you, after all, they could ignore everybody's opinion, don't bother with checking any signature, and simply stick to their rules which you have agreed upon before using their service, you lost your private key -- your funds are gone.

I suggest you edit your posts, take a deep breath, send the signed message to their email along with the letter of guarantee, and then wait a few days before posting anything.

Five days I didn’t get a reply, five days , I waited 5 days for customer support and still haven’t gotten a reply, 5 Days.

in order to steal money with plausible deniability.

Let's be realistic, nobody stole your money here, you sent it yourself, nobody asked for you to send anything.
Yes I am telling you that you are wasting time doing something that doesn't make any sense, but you can do whatever you want.
If you can't handle simple things than I am not sure you should be using mixers and bitcoin, since you obviously talk a lot with crypto support teams (CM, samourai, sparrow), so this is not your first rodeo.

And for what it's worth my opinion stands, if you lose the private key, you lose the funds. At this point I'm not even entirely sure what to make of you, or your situation. You said you just sent them a private key to your personal wallet over email - very bad..

Again, NOBODY asked him to send private keys to anyone, so he has a habit of doing stuff like this on his own.

It was one message to sparrow , asking why their mixer wasn’t working, they replied within 2 minutes and refer me to samurai team, which replied within 10 mins telling me to wait 24 hours and try again, I now decided to use whirlwind instead (no reply after 5 days) all of which happened the same day.



So that makes me an expert?

now here i am, days letter, begging to be treated like a human being that is not very tech savvy.

The count starts today, in the past couple of days all you had is the guarantee letter which doesn't prove much as I explained in my previous post, it's only NOW that you were able to sign the message proving your ownership of one of the coinjoin addresses.

Now, let me clear some things for you, in a perfect world, Whirlwind would spend the time and effort to verify both your letter of guarantee and your ownership of the depositing address, but this isn't a perfect world, they could still ignore you given that you lost your note private key and there was a clear warning not to.

Reflecting on similar situations that happen to centralized exchanges where a user deposits a non-tradable coin or the wrong coin to the correct address, the exchange can still extract those coins but many chose not to do, as that involves time and effort, they already told you to deposit x and you went ahead to deposit y, why should they attend to that for free? so some of them will charge you a fee to fix your mistake, and some of them will just cancel you altogether.

Now it's all up to Whirlwind and how would they want to handle your issue case, in my opinion, they should attend to it, verify the transactions, and charge you a small fee (upon your approval before proceeding with anything), if you refuse to pay the fee, they should just ignore you and dismiss your support ticket, at least this is what I would do.

and now comes the important part, your behavior is not helping, I understand that this money could be all you got, and it's so important for you to get it, but what do you get from calling them names and all that? it will only make things worse for you, after all, they could ignore everybody's opinion, don't bother with checking any signature, and simply stick to their rules which you have agreed upon before using their service, you lost your private key -- your funds are gone.

I suggest you edit your posts, take a deep breath, send the signed message to their email along with the letter of guarantee, and then wait a few days before posting anything.

The reply should have told me to sign the message, but instead they ignored it , till now, the message signing didn’t have to be done in public in the first place.


A simple reply to my email like “hi stormbounty, we received your message, please sign a message to prove wallet ownership”

now here i am, days letter, begging to be treated like a human being that is not very tech savvy.

The count starts today, in the past couple of days all you had is the guarantee letter which doesn't prove much as I explained in my previous post, it's only NOW that you were able to sign the message proving your ownership of one of the coinjoin addresses.

Now, let me clear some things for you, in a perfect world, Whirlwind would spend the time and effort to verify both your letter of guarantee and your ownership of the depositing address, but this isn't a perfect world, they could still ignore you given that you lost your note private key and there was a clear warning not to.

Reflecting on similar situations that happen to centralized exchanges where a user deposits a non-tradable coin or the wrong coin to the correct address, the exchange can still extract those coins but many chose not to do, as that involves time and effort, they already told you to deposit x and you went ahead to deposit y, why should they attend to that for free? so some of them will charge you a fee to fix your mistake, and some of them will just cancel you altogether.

Now it's all up to Whirlwind and how would they want to handle your issue case, in my opinion, they should attend to it, verify the transactions, and charge you a small fee (upon your approval before proceeding with anything), if you refuse to pay the fee, they should just ignore you and dismiss your support ticket, at least this is what I would do.

and now comes the important part, your behavior is not helping, I understand that this money could be all you got, and it's so important for you to get it, but what do you get from calling them names and all that? it will only make things worse for you, after all, they could ignore everybody's opinion, don't bother with checking any signature, and simply stick to their rules which you have agreed upon before using their service, you lost your private key -- your funds are gone.

I suggest you edit your posts, take a deep breath, send the signed message to their email along with the letter of guarantee, and then wait a few days before posting anything.

I sent the letter on guarantee 5 days ago, they didn’t even reply to ask about the note key, I was simply ignored. Still ignored , I was very polite in all the emails, all forum posts on day 1, 2 and 3. I even called myself stupid and took the blame, despite the hosting issues playing a part , still they didn’t reply till now.

[CryptoHFs]

now here i am, days letter, begging to be treated like a human being that is not very tech savvy.

The count starts today, in the past couple of days all you had is the guarantee letter which doesn't prove much as I explained in my previous post, it's only NOW that you were able to sign the message proving your ownership of one of the coinjoin addresses.

Now, let me clear some things for you, in a perfect world, Whirlwind would spend the time and effort to verify both your letter of guarantee and your ownership of the depositing address, but this isn't a perfect world, they could still ignore you given that you lost your note private key and there was a clear warning not to.

Reflecting on similar situations that happen to centralized exchanges where a user deposits a non-tradable coin or the wrong coin to the correct address, the exchange can still extract those coins but many chose not to do, as that involves time and effort, they already told you to deposit x and you went ahead to deposit y, why should they attend to that for free? so some of them will charge you a fee to fix your mistake, and some of them will just cancel you altogether.

Now it's all up to Whirlwind and how would they want to handle your issue case, in my opinion, they should attend to it, verify the transactions, and charge you a small fee (upon your approval before proceeding with anything), if you refuse to pay the fee, they should just ignore you and dismiss your support ticket, at least this is what I would do.

and now comes the important part, your behavior is not helping, I understand that this money could be all you got, and it's so important for you to get it, but what do you get from calling them names and all that? it will only make things worse for you, after all, they could ignore everybody's opinion, don't bother with checking any signature, and simply stick to their rules which you have agreed upon before using their service, you lost your private key -- your funds are gone.

I suggest you edit your posts, take a deep breath, send the signed message to their email along with the letter of guarantee, and then wait a few days before posting anything.

I sent the letter on guarantee 5 days ago, they didn’t even reply to ask about the note key, I was simply ignored. Still ignored , I was very polite in all the emails, all forum posts on day 1, 2 and 3. I even called myself stupid and took the blame, despite the hosting issues playing a part , still they didn’t reply till now.

Why don't they just refund the transaction to the sender address. What is so hard about refunding not mixing?

[mikeywith]

I sent the letter on guarantee 5 days ago, they didn’t even reply to ask about the note key, I was simply ignored. Still ignored , I was very polite in all the emails, all forum posts on day 1, 2 and 3. I even called myself stupid and took the blame, despite the hosting issues playing a part , still they didn’t reply till now.

Alas, you still don't get it, according to their rules they do not have to ask you to sign a message, all this message signing is proposed by community members, which is why I said you need to control your behaviour, because for all we know, they don't have to attend to that.

You are right with only one thing, you deserve a reply from the support team no matter what, given that you have the letter of gurantee.

[whirlwindmoney]

I sent the letter on guarantee 5 days ago, they didn’t even reply to ask about the note key, I was simply ignored. Still ignored , I was very polite in all the emails, all forum posts on day 1, 2 and 3. I even called myself stupid and took the blame, despite the hosting issues playing a part , still they didn’t reply till now.

Why would we reply to ask about the note key? If you had it then you wouldn't have to contact us in the first place. Calling us scammers certainly doesn't help the situation either as you've clearly stated yourself that you made a mistake, and besides that the amount in question is literally tens of times smaller than what we're paying for the signature campaign on a weekly basis so it would make no sense at all to try and scam you.

In your emails you're also stating things like 'ill qietly go away just pay me my 200$ back' and accusing us of 'farming engagement' with your situation, which is certainly not true and very upsetting to read.

Like we said we will leave this situation for the community to decide, if people agree you should get refunded then you will, if they don't you won't. Simple as that, we are not planning to tarnish our reputation for anyone or any amount, much less for someone that can't accept responsibility for his own actions and falsely blames everything on someone else while believing he's entitled to special treatment all at the same time.

From our POV not replying to your emails is completely warranted because if we play by the rules you lose your private key - you lose access to your funds so there's no point to discuss anything. We understand that the communities position is that we should reply even in cases like this and we will do that from now on, but we still fail to see how that would help the user in question. Anyways we'll let the others do the judging and if they are on your side post the refund address here and we will send your funds there.

Also just to note: even though there's no point in doing that the $40k DAI are still in escrow with minerjones and the last time we interacted with him is in this thread when we asked him to announce publicly 7 days in advance when we request our funds back. If you believe you were scammed and we are not being fair to you (and the community as well if they come to the conclusion that you shouldn't be refunded) we suggest you message him yourself and if you're in the right we're sure you will get your funds from him.

So basically the question is, again: should we refund if the user only has the guarantee letter but not the private key, or should we stick to the rule that if you lose the private key you lose access to your funds?

I (still) haven't tested WWM (sorry, I couldn't resist making up this nickname) myself, so forgive me if I ask something dumb, but: what is the point of a Letter of Guarantee if it can't be used as evidence?

The letter of guarantee is useful if any edge cases happen, for example we had a situation in the past days where someone used RBF to bump their fee for the deposit transaction and the new txid wasn't picked up by the system. Other than these very rare edge cases there shouldn't be any situation where you ever have to contact support as long as you have your Note private key and you followed the deposit steps.

Over the weekend we will present the possible upgrades we can do to the system and hopefully this will prevent any situation like the above happening again besides multiple other advantages.

[stormbounty]

I sent the letter on guarantee 5 days ago, they didn’t even reply to ask about the note key, I was simply ignored. Still ignored , I was very polite in all the emails, all forum posts on day 1, 2 and 3. I even called myself stupid and took the blame, despite the hosting issues playing a part , still they didn’t reply till now.

Why would we reply to ask about the note key? If you had it then you wouldn't have to contact us in the first place. Calling us scammers certainly doesn't help the situation either as you've clearly stated yourself that you made a mistake, and besides that the amount in question is literally tens of times smaller than what we're paying for the signature campaign on a weekly basis so it would make no sense at all to try and scam you.

In your emails you're also stating things like 'ill qietly go away just pay me my 200$ back' and accusing us of 'farming engagement' with your situation, which is certainly not true and very upsetting to read.

Like we said we will leave this situation for the community to decide, if people agree you should get refunded then you will, if they don't you won't. Simple as that, we are not planning to tarnish our reputation for anyone or any amount, much less for someone that can't accept responsibility for his own actions and falsely blames everything on someone else while believing he's entitled to special treatment all at the same time.

From our POV not replying to your emails is completely warranted because if we play by the rules you lose your private key - you lose access to your funds so there's no point to discuss anything. We understand that the communities position is that we should reply even in cases like this and we will do that from now on, but we still fail to see how that would help the user in question. Anyways we'll let the others do the judging and if they are on your side post the refund address here and we will send your funds there.

Also just to note: even though there's no point in doing that the $40k DAI are still in escrow with minerjones and the last time we interacted with him is in this thread when we asked him to announce publicly 7 days in advance when we request our funds back. If you believe you were scammed and we are not being fair to you (and the community as well if they come to the conclusion that you shouldn't be refunded) we suggest you message him yourself and if you're in the right we're sure you will get your funds from him.

So basically the question is, again: should we refund if the user only has the guarantee letter but not the private key, or should we stick to the rule that if you lose the private key you lose access to your funds?

I (still) haven't tested WWM (sorry, I couldn't resist making up this nickname) myself, so forgive me if I ask something dumb, but: what is the point of a Letter of Guarantee if it can't be used as evidence?

The letter of guarantee is useful if any edge cases happen, for example we had a situation in the past days where someone used RBF to bump their fee for the deposit transaction and the new txid wasn't picked up by the system. Other than these very rare edge cases there shouldn't be any situation where you ever have to contact support as long as you have your Note private key and you followed the deposit steps.

Over the weekend we will present the possible upgrades we can do to the system and hopefully this will prevent any situation like the above happening again besides multiple other advantages.

I was simply very frustrated, I arrived at the scam conclusion because I couldn’t figure out why I was totally ignored, I remember cross checking the support email letter by letter , maybe I made a mistake and sent a support request to the wrong email. Regarding the farming engagement accusation, it was a (maybe wrong) rational conclusion I could arrive to as to why you ignored me totally as if I was some troll bot, i apologize if you found it offensive but try to put yourself in my shoes, I’m sure you will understand

My refund address is 1HN5rj526LePVJ4FCio6YHR9zgZ6Yys1wx

Thank you.

Good day guys, has a decision been reached please, sorry

[LoyceV]

Like we said we will leave this situation for the community to decide

Although I get and partially understand this, it's also a tricky thing to rely on: at some point you should decide those things on your own, and stand by your decision.

if people agree you should get refunded then you will, if they don't you won't. Simple as that

Let's try a side story: Let's say I made a deposit, saved the Letter of Guarantee, and got the note's private key. I safely stored the private key offline.
Then, my computer got compromised, and someone gained access to my empty wallet and the LoG. That person now has the same information stormbounty has, right? He can sign a message from the address used to deposit, and thus prove that "he" paid the address in the LoG. If that's the case, he should not get the money that belongs to my note to which I have the private key. If I'd come back 2 years later and see the money's gone, you'll get a scam accusation.

Disclaimer: this post includes some assumptions because I still haven't tested your site by myself.

People should really learn to keep the private keys safe. That's all that matters in crypto, if you lose your private key, your money is gone. If it's Bitcoin, it's a donation to everyone. If it's Binance's made-up wrapped Bitcoin, it's a donation to CZ. If it's WWM, it should be waiting for you until the end of time.

[stormbounty]

I know it’s a hypotethical, but in my case I posted here within 30 mins of transaction confirmation.

Like we said we will leave this situation for the community to decide

Although I get and partially understand this, it's also a tricky thing to rely on: at some point you should decide those things on your own, and stand by your decision.

if people agree you should get refunded then you will, if they don't you won't. Simple as that

Let's try a side story: Let's say I made a deposit, saved the Letter of Guarantee, and got the note's private key. I safely stored the private key offline.
Then, my computer got compromised, and someone gained access to my empty wallet and the LoG. That person now has the same information stormbounty has, right? He can sign a message from the address used to deposit, and thus prove that "he" paid the address in the LoG. If that's the case, he should not get the money that belongs to my note to which I have the private key. If I'd come back 2 years later and see the money's gone, you'll get a scam accusation.

Disclaimer: this post includes some assumptions because I still haven't tested your site by myself.

People should really learn to keep the private keys safe. That's all that matters in crypto, if you lose your private key, your money is gone. If it's Bitcoin, it's a donation to everyone. If it's Binance's made-up wrapped Bitcoin, it's a donation to CZ. If it's WWM, it should be waiting for you until the end of time.

This is day 7 of this, I really wish someone can trust me enough to loan me this money for a month it’s $200, I’m exhausted, every reply heightens my anxiety, either gives me hope or squashes the my hope, I’m not sure how much longer my body can take the stress, but I don’t have any other options to solve this pressing need.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

[sam00]

Let's try a side story: Let's say I made a deposit, saved the Letter of Guarantee, and got the note's private key. I safely stored the private key offline.
Then, my computer got compromised, and someone gained access to my empty wallet and the LoG. That person now has the same information stormbounty has, right? He can sign a message from the address used to deposit, and thus prove that "he" paid the address in the LoG. If that's the case, he should not get the money that belongs to my note to which I have the private key. If I'd come back 2 years later and see the money's gone, you'll get a scam accusation.

If they decide to handle requests that way, your hypothetical scenario could become reality and could indeed damage their reputation.
The way you described it, is easily understandable.
Therefore I am currently leaning more towards sticking to stricter rules. Not your keys, not your coins :/

This is day 7 of this, I really wish someone can trust me enough to loan me this money for a month it’s $200

Yesterday you said that you already got a loan for that money. How come you need another loan? At that point you wouldn't care about the outcome of this case anymore and could just log off the forum and never return.
->

I already got a loan to replace the funds, now I have to pay that loan and medical bills.

[mikeywith]

Let's try a side story: Let's say I made a deposit, saved the Letter of Guarantee, and got the note's private key. I safely stored the private key offline.
Then, my computer got compromised, and someone gained access to my empty wallet and the LoG. That person now has the same information stormbounty has, right? He can sign a message from the address used to deposit, and thus prove that "he" paid the address in the LoG. If that's the case, he should not get the money that belongs to my note to which I have the private key. If I'd come back 2 years later and see the money's gone, you'll get a scam accusation.

That is a possible scenario in theory (your assumptions are correct in regards to how the Whirlwind works), but it's a matter of how likely would that happen.? a compromised PC doesn't automatically mean a compromised wallet, how likely it is that someone will secure Whirlwind's note but not their actual BTC wallet? very unlikely if you ask me.

People should really learn to keep the private keys safe. That's all that matters in crypto, if you lose your private key, your money is gone

I agree with this, and I believe, most people would, but the concept of Whirlwind is rather new, people can make mistakes, and what stormbounty told as a story sounds very reasonable (whether it's true or not) it's bound to happen to other users in the future, what happens when thousands of people start using the platform and many of them face a similar issue, ya, it's easy to tell them "sorry, we can't do nothing about it", but then think of all the efforts those people would put into ruining your reputation.

There is no perfect solution, but one is likely better than the other, I believe as long as you can help your clients fix their mistakes -- you should do so, at a reasonable fee that would justify your effort and time, there should be a redline of when you have to dismiss such cases, I believe proof of ownership of the sending address + the letter of guarantee should be the minimum requirements for any kind of refund, anyone who can't provide both shouldn't be served.

Also, depending on the size of the funds in question, some cases could be dismissed right away, I mean if Whirlwind thinks it costs $50 to go through all the evidence and the deposit is $30, they can deny the request. (this is common in some centralized exchanges).

[nioctib_100]

Also, depending on the size of the funds in question, some cases could be dismissed right away, I mean if Whirlwind thinks it costs $50 to go through all the evidence and the deposit is $30, they can deny the request. (this is common in some centralized exchanges).

Perhaps there could and should be a way to pay for an expedited, extra-attention support answer? It could have all the disclaimers necessary like "paying this doesn't guarantee that support will be able to successfully help you," but it'd certainly give some peace of mind to people if they know that if they have to, they can pay for an answer in just a few hours. Probably would help ramp up business a lot even.

This also would help reduce those issues that go back and forth here for a page or two in Bitcointalk, which really fills up the discussion and obviously should be handled privately via support if it can be.

[stormbounty]

Also, depending on the size of the funds in question, some cases could be dismissed right away, I mean if Whirlwind thinks it costs $50 to go through all the evidence and the deposit is $30, they can deny the request. (this is common in some centralized exchanges).

Perhaps there could and should be a way to pay for an expedited, extra-attention support answer? It could have all the disclaimers necessary like "paying this doesn't guarantee that support will be able to successfully help you," but it'd certainly give some peace of mind to people if they know that if they have to, they can pay for an answer in just a few hours. Probably would help ramp up business a lot even.

This also would help reduce those issues that go back and forth here for a page or two in Bitcointalk, which really fills up the discussion and obviously should be handled privately via support if it can be.

I already offered 10% of the money , can increase it to 20%

Let's try a side story: Let's say I made a deposit, saved the Letter of Guarantee, and got the note's private key. I safely stored the private key offline.
Then, my computer got compromised, and someone gained access to my empty wallet and the LoG. That person now has the same information stormbounty has, right? He can sign a message from the address used to deposit, and thus prove that "he" paid the address in the LoG. If that's the case, he should not get the money that belongs to my note to which I have the private key. If I'd come back 2 years later and see the money's gone, you'll get a scam accusation.

If they decide to handle requests that way, your hypothetical scenario could become reality and could indeed damage their reputation.
The way you described it, is easily understandable.
Therefore I am currently leaning more towards sticking to stricter rules. Not your keys, not your coins :/

This is day 7 of this, I really wish someone can trust me enough to loan me this money for a month it’s $200

Yesterday you said that you already got a loan for that money. How come you need another loan? At that point you wouldn't care about the outcome of this case anymore and could just log off the forum and never return.
->

I already got a loan to replace the funds, now I have to pay that loan and medical bills.

Dude I live in a very third world country, I don’t have access to the kind of loans you do, loans here are repaid within days, less than a week.

I agree with this, and I believe, most people would, but the concept of Whirlwind is rather new, people can make mistakes, and what stormbounty told as a story sounds very reasonable (whether it's true or not) it's bound tos + the letter of guarantee should be the minimum requirements for any kind of refund, anyone who can't provide both shouldn't be served.
Also, depending on the size of the funds in question, some cases could be dismissed right away, I mean if Whirlwind thinks it costs $50 to go through all the evidence and the deposit is $30, they can deny the request. (this is common in some centralized exchanges).

This wouldn’t have happened, if you can withdraw as long as you are

1: still on the same session/tab after the deposit confirmation.

2: a second step to confirm the right private note key is copied. ( It is unbelievable they didn’t implement this, it is standard practice in crypto, but I guess they are in Beta)

[TryNinja]

My 2 sats: Even though I completely understand whirlwind’s decision to not deal with people who lost their private keys, I feel like they should at least let the guy knows about this over email.

Something like “As explained on our terms before you sent the coins, we can’t help you if you lost your note’s private key. We are sorry, but there is nothing we can do. This is our last reply about this matter” is enough.

[JollyGood]

My 2 sats: Even though I completely understand whirlwind’s decision to not deal with people who lost their private keys, I feel like they should at least let the guy knows about this over email.

Something like “As explained on our terms before you sent the coins, we can’t help you if you lost your note’s private key. We are sorry, but there is nothing we can do. This is our last reply about this matter” is enough.

I agree, even it were a simple email from Whirlwind to acknowledge receipt with a short message, it would look better on their part and to be fair that would be the minimum you could expect from a customer services department of any website. Also, as can be seen using this case as an example, it would demonstrate they have responded rather than leave the sender not knowing if the email was received or not.

In your emails you're also stating things like 'ill qietly go away just pay me my 200$ back' and accusing us of 'farming engagement' with your situation, which is certainly not true and very upsetting to read.

Rightly or otherwise maybe part of the reason Whirlwind did not reply was because the content of the emails (which they received) had some rather ludicrous allegations and comments included.

[stormbounty]

My 2 sats: Even though I completely understand whirlwind’s decision to not deal with people who lost their private keys, I feel like they should at least let the guy knows about this over email.

Something like “As explained on our terms before you sent the coins, we can’t help you if you lost your note’s private key. We are sorry, but there is nothing we can do. This is our last reply about this matter” is enough.

I agree, even it were a simple email from Whirlwind to to acknowledge receipt with a short message, it would look better on their part and to be fair that would be the minimum you could expect from a customer services department of any website. Also, as can be seen using this case as an example, it would demonstrate they have responded rather than leave the sender not knowing if the email was received or not.

In your emails you're also stating things like 'ill qietly go away just pay me my 200$ back' and accusing us of 'farming engagement' with your situation, which is certainly not true and very upsetting to read.

Rightly or otherwise maybe part of the reason Whirlwind did not reply was because the content of the emails (which they received) had some rather ludicrous allegations and comments included.

No, I send that on day 5.

I can publish the content of all the emails here in the thread, I assure you they were all polite.
That last email was sent because I couldn’t understand, why my support requests wasn’t acknowledged.


I NEED PERMISSION FROM WHIRLWINDMONEY TO REPOST ALL MY SUPPORT EMAILS IN THE THREAD

My 2 sats: Even though I completely understand whirlwind’s decision to not deal with people who lost their private keys, I feel like they should at least let the guy knows about this over email.

Something like “As explained on our terms before you sent the coins, we can’t help you if you lost your note’s private key. We are sorry, but there is nothing we can do. This is our last reply about this matter” is enough.

I’m not sure it’s very clear to you all what happened, I went to the clear net link, copied the key, pasted in notepad,entered the captcha clicked next and the page didn’t load (whirlwindmoney has admitted they had hosting issues on the clear net link) and , then I returned to the forum, copied the onion link, just breezed through and entered the captcha because I stupidly assumed the private key would be the same,

 (they looked similar, I’m not very sure but I even think I copied to clipboard, but I didn’t paste to my notepad cos they looked similar so I assumed it didn’t change)

then I deposited to the onion link.

 I still have the clear net private key.


This is the email they didn’t reply till now, yes, still no reply lol

Code:

 

Hi, I did not download private note key by mistake, I felt since i was still on page all will be ok,

Now deposit is confirmed and there is no where to withdraw, what do i do?

I am still on the page, I am scared to click back to get private note key


Sent with Proton Mail secure email. 

That is honestly what happened and I despite my stupid decision not to verify the key was the same by going through the letters one by one, I definitely deserve to be refunded, or my support messages replied at the very least @ jollygood

I sent the letter on guarantee 5 days ago, they didn’t even reply to ask about the note key, I was simply ignored. Still ignored , I was very polite in all the emails, all forum posts on day 1, 2 and 3. I even called myself stupid and took the blame, despite the hosting issues playing a part , still they didn’t reply till now.

Why would we reply to ask about the note key? If you had it then you wouldn't have to contact us in the first place. Calling us scammers certainly doesn't help the situation either as you've clearly stated yourself that you made a mistake, and besides that the amount in question is literally tens of times smaller than what we're paying for the signature campaign on a weekly basis so it would make no sense at all to try and scam you.

In your emails you're also stating things like 'ill qietly go away just pay me my 200$ back' and accusing us of 'farming engagement' with your situation, which is certainly not true and very upsetting to read.

Like we said we will leave this situation for the community to decide, if people agree you should get refunded then you will, if they don't you won't. Simple as that, we are not planning to tarnish our reputation for anyone or any amount, much less for someone that can't accept responsibility for his own actions and falsely blames everything on someone else while believing he's entitled to special treatment all at the same time.

From our POV not replying to your emails is completely warranted because if we play by the rules you lose your private key - you lose access to your funds so there's no point to discuss anything. We understand that the communities position is that we should reply even in cases like this and we will do that from now on, but we still fail to see how that would help the user in question. Anyways we'll let the others do the judging and if they are on your side post the refund address here and we will send your funds there.

Also just to note: even though there's no point in doing that the $40k DAI are still in escrow with minerjones and the last time we interacted with him is in this thread when we asked him to announce publicly 7 days in advance when we request our funds back. If you believe you were scammed and we are not being fair to you (and the community as well if they come to the conclusion that you shouldn't be refunded) we suggest you message him yourself and if you're in the right we're sure you will get your funds from him.

So basically the question is, again: should we refund if the user only has the guarantee letter but not the private key, or should we stick to the rule that if you lose the private key you lose access to your funds?

I (still) haven't tested WWM (sorry, I couldn't resist making up this nickname) myself, so forgive me if I ask something dumb, but: what is the point of a Letter of Guarantee if it can't be used as evidence?

The letter of guarantee is useful if any edge cases happen, for example we had a situation in the past days where someone used RBF to bump their fee for the deposit transaction and the new txid wasn't picked up by the system. Other than these very rare edge cases there shouldn't be any situation where you ever have to contact support as long as you have your Note private key and you followed the deposit steps.

Over the weekend we will present the possible upgrades we can do to the system and hopefully this will prevent any situation like the above happening again besides multiple other advantages.

Whirlwind money please refund me, all this wouldn’t happen if you didn’t have hosting issues, don’t totally absolve yourselves. It’s been 1 week. I’ve provided all the proof in the world, do you want my kidneys too?

Btw you still haven’t replied my support request.

This is my refund address 1HN5rj526LePVJ4FCio6YHR9zgZ6Yys1wx