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Author Topic: [BBR] Boolberry: Privacy and Security - Guaranteed Since 2014  (Read 1173629 times)
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1blockologist
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December 01, 2016, 08:53:25 AM
 #7361

<
1block calls his fork "Rune edition."  IS THAT ENOUGH PROOF FOR YOU?>

No. Actually that is not proof of anything to me, that is why I asked. Your non-specific assertions are baseless and amount to FUD from my perspective.

What do you believe 1blockologist is a part of or has done that is bad?

What is the problem with BBR emission?

Are you saying it's just a random coincidence that a group of people were pushing for a rebrand to Rune that failed, and then another group begins a Rune edition after CZ abandons the project

Hi.
Thats exactly what happened though

I read alot of your posts and there are several assumptions that lead to conclusions hard to give rebuttals to, so I'll try to address the assumptions.

First and foremost it seems you are conflating software fork with blockchain fork. Software forks are part of open source development and is the only way you, I or anyone can make modifications to open source projects like Boolberry. None of the modifications that have been done cause forks in thr blockchain. Development is ongoing, you can follow on github, or the bi weekly updates, or slack, and we havent released any binaries because it isnt ready yet. You can compile from source and run the "rune" edition if you want right now, like others do. There is also a java boolberry client in development too that you can build from source. It would be misinformed to say it failed when nothing was released, it is an open source project.

These seem to be things shaking your confidence in boolberry for reasons that are irrelevant. The updated client allows for other services (web wallets, block explorers, bitsquare, etc). This isnt bitcoin unlimited, there is no blockchain fork. The c++ client that CZ, clintar2 , and more originally worked on is being updated so that I and others can build more infrastructure on top of it, whether other people use it or not. It doesnt effect how transactions are relayed across the network, so it is not a blockchain fork. Im not really sure how many ways to spell this out, but it seems misunderstanding of how blockchains work is shaking confidence in people looking for a leader.

Nothing that I or CZ have ever done or will do will cause a fork in the boolberry blockchain. There is already an open request to merge the code changes in my fork with his open source repository. There is also a work in progress java client being written from scratch in javajared's github repo, because he wants to. This is just extra information to help you amd others form objective opinions before some of the farfetched conclusions Ive been reading. A lot of what Ive been reading just dont matter, but if it is really creating the semblance of a cloud over the viability of this project then Im trying to address them.

CZ's code is really good, having dug through it over the last few months, and I and others continue to develop on top of it mostly pulling code from Monero. There are not "1000 developer hours" necessary to bring this network up to speed.

It would be great to work more closely with CZ, but it is still surprising to me that you and others are looking for an endorsement despite all the transparency into what is going on and the decentralized nature of blockchains. I wouldnt count on that at this point, also doesnt matter. If CZ actually did push updates to the open source code (this hasnt happened since september 2015), I will merge those changes in to the copy I work on. It would push the project ahead, he suggested he has done the database work that I want to do. The copy I have has RPC server updates. It is only a net positive, I haven't felt the need to explain this but now I see other peoples line of thinking, so I hope that helps.

Second, regarding RUNE and a previous dwarven name change. Myself and other analysts skimmed threads about boolberry and saw that thread. For distinctive purposes the name is just homage to that point in time. The official stance is that my company experiences nothing but apathy to drama related to it in this community. Ive been consistent about the utility and scarcity improvements that I see here and will continue improving the client towards. We can talk about branding when applicable, it is primarily to let others know the project isnt dead.

Come to the slack channel on occassion. It will be easier to chat there about your remaining concerns. Feel free to post our conversations here for transparency.


                                     
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December 01, 2016, 09:34:32 AM
 #7362

<
1block calls his fork "Rune edition."  IS THAT ENOUGH PROOF FOR YOU?>

No. Actually that is not proof of anything to me, that is why I asked. Your non-specific assertions are baseless and amount to FUD from my perspective.

What do you believe 1blockologist is a part of or has done that is bad?

What is the problem with BBR emission?

Are you saying it's just a random coincidence that a group of people were pushing for a rebrand to Rune that failed, and then another group begins a Rune edition after CZ abandons the project

[unverifiable claims that previous and current Rune groups are unrelated]

Bruh, I've been here since 2011.  I solved 50 BTC blocks with cgminer before there was stratum, much less ASICs.  No need to ELI5 the difference between a software fork and blockchain fork.

Not even sure where you get the idea I'm confusing the two, as I never mentioned blockchain forks, intentional or otherwise.  Seems like a handwavy distraction and/or attempt to impugn my credibility/expertise.

BBR's and XMR's codebases have drifted apart from their common Bytecoin origin, so you can't simply "pull" things like LMDB, RingCT, etc into BBR.  Of course you can reuse a lot of the work done for Monero, but it's still going to take 100s of hours to adapt the code for BBR, test it, and keep doing that as Monero moves forward.

That's why I suggested it would be easier to fork XMR's code, modifying it with Wild Keccak replacing CryptoNight, than to go the other way.

Since there's no way to verify you are not related to the original Rune pushing group, the only thing I learned from your post is that you are almost certainly not CZ.  And that's not because you claimed it, but because you do not write like he does (native English speaker vs Slavglish).


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"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
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December 01, 2016, 03:10:55 PM
 #7363

<
1block calls his fork "Rune edition."  IS THAT ENOUGH PROOF FOR YOU?>

No. Actually that is not proof of anything to me, that is why I asked. Your non-specific assertions are baseless and amount to FUD from my perspective.

What do you believe 1blockologist is a part of or has done that is bad?

What is the problem with BBR emission?

Are you saying it's just a random coincidence that a group of people were pushing for a rebrand to Rune that failed, and then another group begins a Rune edition after CZ abandons the project

[unverifiable claims that previous and current Rune groups are unrelated]

Bruh, I've been here since 2011.  I solved 50 BTC blocks with cgminer before there was stratum, much less ASICs.  No need to ELI5 the difference between a software fork and blockchain fork.

Not even sure where you get the idea I'm confusing the two, as I never mentioned blockchain forks, intentional or otherwise.  Seems like a handwavy distraction and/or attempt to impugn my credibility/expertise.

BBR's and XMR's codebases have drifted apart from their common Bytecoin origin, so you can't simply "pull" things like LMDB, RingCT, etc into BBR.  Of course you can reuse a lot of the work done for Monero, but it's still going to take 100s of hours to adapt the code for BBR, test it, and keep doing that as Monero moves forward.

That's why I suggested it would be easier to fork XMR's code, modifying it with Wild Keccak replacing CryptoNight, than to go the other way.

Since there's no way to verify you are not related to the original Rune pushing group, the only thing I learned from your post is that you are almost certainly not CZ.  And that's not because you claimed it, but because you do not write like he does (native English speaker vs Slavglish).

eh most of the post wasnt about you specifically, it was about your influence on less tech savvy lurkers. My post should serve to clarify the difference between fork normenclature as there are other people who have expressed concern about blockchain divergence if two clients emerged

It isnt pulling, but there is a lot of copy and pasting involved

Your suggestion of forking monero and making transactions compatible with existing boolberry clients is interesting, the code for the wild keccak algorithm and transaction formation is largely compartmentalized, ill look into it before dismissing it and see what is involved

What would happen if you just assumed I wasnt part of the original rune group, rainbows and butterflies and an awesome bbr daemon?

                                     
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December 01, 2016, 03:41:22 PM
 #7364

Your suggestion of forking monero and making transactions compatible with existing boolberry clients is interesting, the code for the wild keccak algorithm and transaction formation is largely compartmentalized, ill look into it before dismissing it and see what is involved

What would happen if you just assumed I wasnt part of the original rune group, rainbows and butterflies and an awesome bbr daemon?

Until I know who the original Rune group was and you are (thus being able to ascertain with certainty overlap or lack thereof), I'll use Occam's Razor and avoid multiplying entities needlessly.

Regardless...

Since Monero has waaay more post-Bytecoin work done on it, and the PoW is designed to be modular, it seems easier to (re)start from there and swap out CryptoNote for Wild Keccak than to keep the rest of CZ's legacy code and doom yourself to an eternity of shoehorning into it the latest XMR pulls.

It would be a clean break, although you'd lose the bit of pruning CZ added.

You could also modify Wild Keccak to use be as ASIC friendly as possible (IE reduce the memory req and stop its growth), to prevent or at least forestall monopolization by well funded entities.  You may call it Feral Keccak.   Grin

To me the beauty of WK is that it forces miners to maintain or at least be close to full nodes (Satoshi's original design), not the pointless/counterproductive ASIC arms race acceleration.


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"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
Is Dash a scam?
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December 01, 2016, 05:36:19 PM
 #7365

Your suggestion of forking monero and making transactions compatible with existing boolberry clients is interesting, the code for the wild keccak algorithm and transaction formation is largely compartmentalized, ill look into it before dismissing it and see what is involved

What would happen if you just assumed I wasnt part of the original rune group, rainbows and butterflies and an awesome bbr daemon?

Until I know who the original Rune group was and you are (thus being able to ascertain with certainty overlap or lack thereof), I'll use Occam's Razor and avoid multiplying entities needlessly.

Regardless...

Since Monero has waaay more post-Bytecoin work done on it, and the PoW is designed to be modular, it seems easier to (re)start from there and swap out CryptoNote for Wild Keccak than to keep the rest of CZ's legacy code and doom yourself to an eternity of shoehorning into it the latest XMR pulls.

It would be a clean break, although you'd lose the bit of pruning CZ added.

You could also modify Wild Keccak to use be as ASIC friendly as possible (IE reduce the memory req and stop its growth), to prevent or at least forestall monopolization by well funded entities.  You may call it Feral Keccak.   Grin

To me the beauty of WK is that it forces miners to maintain or at least be close to full nodes (Satoshi's original design), not the pointless/counterproductive ASIC arms race acceleration.

That's a pretty sweet idea, i.e. BBR is still a BCN fork with WK, just a lot further upstream to where we want to be.

Icebreaker, shouldn't there be a good mix of light and full nodes in the network, to compensate for the loss of pruning in your scenario?
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December 01, 2016, 05:39:18 PM
 #7366

Also, I like your idea of Feral Keccak - great name!  Smiley
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December 01, 2016, 08:57:30 PM
Last edit: December 01, 2016, 09:19:43 PM by 1blockologist
 #7367

Your suggestion of forking monero and making transactions compatible with existing boolberry clients is interesting, the code for the wild keccak algorithm and transaction formation is largely compartmentalized, ill look into it before dismissing it and see what is involved

What would happen if you just assumed I wasnt part of the original rune group, rainbows and butterflies and an awesome bbr daemon?

Until I know who the original Rune group was and you are (thus being able to ascertain with certainty overlap or lack thereof), I'll use Occam's Razor and avoid multiplying entities needlessly.

Yeah, again I have nothing but apathy for this baseless, immature and ultimately inconsequential assertion, and is one of the dumbest theories I've been confronted with on this project.

Dont take that one personally, these are the words that most accurately describe how I feel when reading it. Feel free to consider it a defensive diversion tactic to rationalize a conclusion you already made. The reason it is inconsequential is because it will become clear when my organization engages in other public blockchain projects.

The goal is to improve distressed networks or make general improvements in the blockchain space, and weed out the dramatic baggage that blockchain development has had in favor of a more standardized and professional development process. This argument is exhibit A of one of the frustrations that motivated me to pursue my company's goals.

Regardless...

Since Monero has waaay more post-Bytecoin work done on it, and the PoW is designed to be modular, it seems easier to (re)start from there and swap out CryptoNote for Wild Keccak than to keep the rest of CZ's legacy code and doom yourself to an eternity of shoehorning into it the latest XMR pulls.

It would be a clean break, although you'd lose the bit of pruning CZ added.

You could also modify Wild Keccak to use be as ASIC friendly as possible (IE reduce the memory req and stop its growth), to prevent or at least forestall monopolization by well funded entities.  You may call it Feral Keccak.   Grin

To me the beauty of WK is that it forces miners to maintain or at least be close to full nodes (Satoshi's original design), not the pointless/counterproductive ASIC arms race acceleration.

Interesting ideas here, some conflicting. You dont like the asic arms race but want to modify wild keccak to be asic friendly?

                                     
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December 02, 2016, 07:08:40 AM
 #7368

Your suggestion of forking monero and making transactions compatible with existing boolberry clients is interesting, the code for the wild keccak algorithm and transaction formation is largely compartmentalized, ill look into it before dismissing it and see what is involved

What would happen if you just assumed I wasnt part of the original rune group, rainbows and butterflies and an awesome bbr daemon?

Until I know who the original Rune group was and you are (thus being able to ascertain with certainty overlap or lack thereof), I'll use Occam's Razor and avoid multiplying entities needlessly.

Yeah, again I have nothing but apathy for this baseless, immature and ultimately inconsequential assertion, and is one of the dumbest theories I've been confronted with on this project.

Dont take that one personally, these are the words that most accurately describe how I feel when reading it. Feel free to consider it a defensive diversion tactic to rationalize a conclusion you already made. The reason it is inconsequential is because it will become clear when my organization engages in other public blockchain projects.

The goal is to improve distressed networks or make general improvements in the blockchain space, and weed out the dramatic baggage that blockchain development has had in favor of a more standardized and professional development process. This argument is exhibit A of one of the frustrations that motivated me to pursue my company's goals.

The text I've put in bold is not an "assertion" but rather a disclosive, conditional statement of my personal position.

I'm not conclusively asserting you were part of the original Rune group of yore; I'm merely stating that I will assume so until proven otherwise.

So excuse the fuck out of parsimonious silly old me for being unwilling to multiply entities needlessly.   Cheesy

Your strenuous objections to Occam's Razor are duly noted.  As is the hypocritical performative contradiction of claiming "nothing but apathy" while writing several argumentative paragraphs of self-congratulatory proclamations regarding your sweepingly munificent intentions.

Don't take it personally.  Or do.  I sincerely don't GAF.  This is B I T C O I N T A L K - the fiery crucible wherein we purify those unworthy of serving Supreme Master Satoshi.

Speaking of disclosure, what other handles have you used on this BBS?

Since Monero has waaay more post-Bytecoin work done on it, and the PoW is designed to be modular, it seems easier to (re)start from there and swap out CryptoNote for Wild Keccak than to keep the rest of CZ's legacy code and doom yourself to an eternity of shoehorning into it the latest XMR pulls.

It would be a clean break, although you'd lose the bit of pruning CZ added.

You could also modify Wild Keccak to use be as ASIC friendly as possible (IE reduce the memory req and stop its growth), to prevent or at least forestall monopolization by well funded entities.  You may call it Feral Keccak.   Grin

To me the beauty of WK is that it forces miners to maintain or at least be close to full nodes (Satoshi's original design), not the pointless/counterproductive ASIC arms race acceleration.

Interesting ideas here, some conflicting. You dont like the asic arms race but want to modify wild keccak to be asic friendly?

The conflict is all in your mind, an artifact of your lack of understanding.

I can't fault you for that, as I too was previously chasing the unicorn of "ASIC resistant" PoW.

But that is an entirely wrongheaded paradigm, because any PoW may be performed by a sufficiently complex (and correspondingly expensive) ASIC.

Straining to avoid this inevitability is counterproductive, as the more complexity we load onto the PoW function, the higher the barriers to ASIC production become, leading to only the most relatively well-funded entities being given an edge over their competition.

Simple PoWs like sha256 (at least initially) keep barriers to entry as low as possible, increasing the number of potential competing firms and helping the ASIC market (and hashrate division) tend optimally towards market perfection.

This concept is fascinatingly parallel to the idea of CONOP (cost of node option), the metric by which we measure Bitcoin's decentralization.  Let's dub it COAO - Cost Of Asic Option.   Cool

Wild Keccak's conflation of mining functionality and blockchain (IE well-connected full node) maintenance is sublime genius, but its increasingly higher memory requirements are a fool's errand.  EG, in AD 2036, we don't want only nation-states to be capable of producing competitive BBR ASICs.

For a successful e-cash coin, the ASIC arms race is inevitable, so we must accept and lean in to embrace it while seeking to keep the competition within as healthy as possible.

That goal is accomplished with ASIC-friendly PoWs and forestalled by (pseudo-)resistant ones.  Bitcoin is the best example of this notion.

Hence my proposal for Feral Keccak.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
Buy and sell XMR near you
P2P Exchange Network
Buy XMR with fiat
Is Dash a scam?
CoinRazor
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December 02, 2016, 09:30:47 AM
 #7369

Hi guys, I cant seem to connect or sync my wallet whatsoever, it gives me 0 connections on the wallet qt and connections failed in console.
What nodes should we use? I tried the previosly posted method:
--add-priority-node 66.228.33.249:10101 --add-priority-node 59.120.166.36:10101 --add-priority-node 62.201.213.25:10101 --add-priority-node 95.85.21.33:10101 --add-priority-node 107.170.97.197:10101
but did not work.

Here is a screenshot of the console
https://snag.gy/nPsGtd.jpg https://snag.gy/nPsGtd.jpg

Any help would be appreciated. Is it still worth mining on cpu too?
CryptoRambler
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December 02, 2016, 01:17:44 PM
 #7370

Minergate Block Explorer working again! It is currently updating... wow look at that increase in the hashrate! Great job guys

https://minergate.com/blockchain/bbr/blocks
CryptoRambler
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December 02, 2016, 10:07:31 PM
 #7371

Your suggestion of forking monero and making transactions compatible with existing boolberry clients is interesting, the code for the wild keccak algorithm and transaction formation is largely compartmentalized, ill look into it before dismissing it and see what is involved

What would happen if you just assumed I wasnt part of the original rune group, rainbows and butterflies and an awesome bbr daemon?

Until I know who the original Rune group was and you are (thus being able to ascertain with certainty overlap or lack thereof), I'll use Occam's Razor and avoid multiplying entities needlessly.

Regardless...

Since Monero has waaay more post-Bytecoin work done on it, and the PoW is designed to be modular, it seems easier to (re)start from there and swap out CryptoNote for Wild Keccak than to keep the rest of CZ's legacy code and doom yourself to an eternity of shoehorning into it the latest XMR pulls.

It would be a clean break, although you'd lose the bit of pruning CZ added.

You could also modify Wild Keccak to use be as ASIC friendly as possible (IE reduce the memory req and stop its growth), to prevent or at least forestall monopolization by well funded entities.  You may call it Feral Keccak.   Grin

To me the beauty of WK is that it forces miners to maintain or at least be close to full nodes (Satoshi's original design), not the pointless/counterproductive ASIC arms race acceleration.

@smooth, what are your thoughts about BBR forking monero and making Wild Keccak asic friendly?
mmo4me.2016
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December 03, 2016, 12:38:00 PM
 #7372

Today, Chainradar.com get back for Bbr! Great and have hope have best dev for this coin
slb
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December 03, 2016, 02:00:28 PM
 #7373

Today, Chainradar.com get back for Bbr! Great and have hope have best dev for this coin
Minergate and Chainradar went online in the same day. Should I state the obvious?

Forknote (create cryptocurrenies easy) - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1079306.0
Dashcoin (anonymous cryptocurrency) - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1020627.0
crypjunkie
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December 03, 2016, 02:16:48 PM
 #7374

Today, Chainradar.com get back for Bbr! Great and have hope have best dev for this coin
Minergate and Chainradar went online in the same day. Should I state the obvious?

Amuse us
jwinterm
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December 03, 2016, 04:33:31 PM
 #7375

Today, Chainradar.com get back for Bbr! Great and have hope have best dev for this coin
Minergate and Chainradar went online in the same day. Should I state the obvious?

Amuse us

It's the same site run by the same people, quite possibly the people who created bytecoin. They also are apparently responsible for hitbtc, changelly, freewallet, and coindesk (or one of those "news" sites).
CryptoRambler
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December 03, 2016, 04:57:25 PM
 #7376

Today, Chainradar.com get back for Bbr! Great and have hope have best dev for this coin
Minergate and Chainradar went online in the same day. Should I state the obvious?

Return of CZ speculation?
crypjunkie
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December 03, 2016, 07:44:14 PM
 #7377

Today, Chainradar.com get back for Bbr! Great and have hope have best dev for this coin
Minergate and Chainradar went online in the same day. Should I state the obvious?


Amuse us

It's the same site run by the same people, quite possibly the people who created bytecoin. They also are apparently responsible for hitbtc, changelly, freewallet, and coindesk (or one of those "news" sites).

Makes sense, thanks.
Gash
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December 03, 2016, 08:24:23 PM
 #7378

>> I'm still buying, all about lowering my avg buy price now>>

Thanks for the update crypjunkie! It does appear to be a terrific time to buy BBR right now

It seems reasonable that BBR could trade $.30-50 in the short term and $1 a year from now with steady progress. Cheers!

At some point in the past it outstripped xmr. Cryptonote coins might follow monero from now on. Not literally, not tomorrow, but in the long shot, they will.
crypjunkie
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December 03, 2016, 08:30:46 PM
 #7379

and Monero has developed RingCT which will allow for non-zero mixin ring signatures, something that no other cryptonote has.

I think you meant non-zero mixin multi-sig, right?  Wink

I am not interested to start a fight so I will not list here the big list of Monero advantages over BBR. Those who want to can hop over Monero thread on bct or reddit.

BTW, I hope BBR gets moving soon and become a strong member of the CN family.

Yes, you're correct - meant to say multisig.

In other news, some shadowcash guys contacted me about getting reddit admin privileges so they could fix it up and make it look fancy. Added them as mod a few days ago, so maybe there will a reddit facelift in the not too distant future.

Who is the shadowcash guys, can you tell us? As far as i can see nothing has been changed or done on that site for ages. Don't understand why anyone from SDC would want to be a mod of boolberry reddit, just doesn't add up.

Coinopoly seems to have specific interest in both BBR & SDC, any relation?
jwinterm
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December 03, 2016, 08:37:19 PM
 #7380

Seb_sebastian is guy I added. I think someone else contacted me first to ask. I'll look for message...

Edit: it was coinopoly on here, basically he said they bought in to bbr:

!!! WARNING: This user is a newbie. If you are expecting a message from a more veteran member, then this is an imposter !!!

Greetings,

Members of the SDC community has taken a position in BBR and want to redo the subreddit graphics and layout. Should I have them reach out to you directly to get mod permissions so they can give the sub reddit a face lift?

Here is an example of their subreddit work
https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowcash/

They're working on a complete graphics supplement for BBR new ANN graphics, marketing material and GUI wallet similar to SDCs.
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