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Author Topic: What's wrong with eating meat?  (Read 29593 times)
lynn_402
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April 23, 2014, 12:44:48 AM
 #181


(Sorry for taking a long time to answer, this discussion made me hungry ^^ )
First, all of these nutriments can be found in eggs and dairy, so it supports my main point that we can get all nutriments without eating meat.
Still, some things are misleading in the article.

1- Vitamin D can be obtained from exposure to the sun, and is available in green vegetables (except D3, but the sun gives enough of it with a few minutes a day of exposure).

2- Creatine might be important for bodybuilders, but our livers produces enough of it on its own for regular individuals if we eat a balanced amount of amino acids from the sources which I mentionned earlier.

3- Carnosine. The arguments used in the article are: "This nutrient can reduce damage caused by elevated blood glucose and may have strong anti-aging effects." Thus, someone without blood-glucose problem and who does not have a lifestyle that causes premature aging is not affected by deffiency in it.

4- Omega 3. These are found in considerable quantity in a number of vegetarian food, especially in hemp seeds, flaxseeds, seaweed, beans, mangos, and other.

5- B12: That's a delicate subject. Many scientific articles arrive at different conclusions regarding its sources; there are good reason to believe that it can be found in sufficient quantities in fermented food like sauerkraut, and that the microorganism that live in our gut produces enough of it for us to survive; if we have an healthy gut flora, that is. However, even if that is not the case, supplements of B12 are found in all non-vegetarian produce substitutes like soy milk, and you should know that nowadays, most B12 that is found in animals is given to them as supplements, since the poor diet we feed them with does not permit them to produce enough. So vegan or non-vegan, the B12 comes from supplement anyways.

TL;DR
These nutriments are harder to find for vegans, but with a bit of effort one can avoid deffiancy in any of them.
Of course, eating eggs and dairy solves the problem entirely.

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April 23, 2014, 12:55:31 AM
 #182


(Sorry for taking a long time to answer, this discussion made me hungry ^^ )
First, all of these nutriments can be found in eggs and dairy, so it supports my main point that we can get all nutriments without eating meat.
Still, some things are misleading in the article.

1- Vitamin D can be obtained from exposure to the sun, and is available in green vegetables (except D3, but the sun gives enough of it with a few minutes a day of exposure).

2- Creatine might be important for bodybuilders, but our livers produces enough of it on its own for regular individuals if we eat a balanced amount of amino acids from the sources which I mentionned earlier.

3- Carnosine. The arguments used in the article are: "This nutrient can reduce damage caused by elevated blood glucose and may have strong anti-aging effects." Thus, someone without blood-glucose problem and who does not have a lifestyle that causes premature aging is not affected by deffiency in it.

4- Omega 3. These are found in considerable quantity in a number of vegetarian food, especially in hemp seeds, flaxseeds, seaweed, beans, mangos, and other.

5- B12: That's a delicate subject. Many scientific articles arrive at different conclusions regarding its sources; there are good reason to believe that it can be found in sufficient quantities in fermented food like sauerkraut, and that the microorganism that live in our gut produces enough of it for us to survive; if we have an healthy gut flora, that is. However, even if that is not the case, supplements of B12 are found in all non-vegetarian produce substitutes like soy milk, and you should know that nowadays, most B12 that is found in animals is given to them as supplements, since the poor diet we feed them with does not permit them to produce enough. So vegan or non-vegan, the B12 comes from supplement anyways.

TL;DR
These nutriments are harder to find for vegans, but with a bit of effort one can avoid deffiancy in any of them.
Of course, eating eggs and dairy solves the problem entirely.
While this may be right you COULD, and hear me out on this one, eat meat, and not have to worry about your intake of seeds.
Soy products are still not anywhere near equal meat protein due to the estrogen-like substance in it, no matter what you say.

Besides the article wasn't about vital nutriments, just basically stating it's more efficient to just eat meat if you want to control your intake.
About the vitamin D, it's not fair to say "you get it from the sun". In the northern part of the world you will not get your daily requirement during the winter half year, which is a fact. Basically everyone in Scandinavia when being tested for vitamin D deficiency are under the line of what's recommended, and up to 10% of the population in Sweden are at values low enough to risk being directly damaging.

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lynn_402
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April 23, 2014, 01:00:53 AM
 #183

While this may be right you COULD, and hear me out on this one, eat meat, and not have to worry about your intake of seeds.
Soy products are still not anywhere near equal meat protein due to the estrogen-like substance in it, no matter what you say.

Besides the article wasn't about vital nutriments, just basically stating it's more efficient to just eat meat if you want to control your intake.
About the vitamin D, it's not fair to say "you get it from the sun". In the northern part of the world you will not get your daily requirement during the winter half year, which is a fact. Basically everyone in Scandinavia when being tested for vitamin D deficiency are under the line of what's recommended, and up to 10% of the population in Sweden are at values low enough to risk being directly damaging.

I agree that those living in the upper northern hemisphere would benefit in eating some meat (or many supplements), hence why there are way less vegetarians in these parts of the world. But that is not the case of most people Smiley

And yep, it's easier to eat meat and not have to worry about getting all essential nutriments. But it is possible to be perfectly healthy while being vegan, and getting all nutriments is really easy if you add the occasional eggs or dairy product on top of that. (For the records - I'm not vegan)

(Also, the estrogen-like substance in soy products is a problem only if you abuse them. Asians have been eating considerable amounts of soy since centuries)

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April 23, 2014, 01:05:33 AM
 #184

While this may be right you COULD, and hear me out on this one, eat meat, and not have to worry about your intake of seeds.
Soy products are still not anywhere near equal meat protein due to the estrogen-like substance in it, no matter what you say.

Besides the article wasn't about vital nutriments, just basically stating it's more efficient to just eat meat if you want to control your intake.
About the vitamin D, it's not fair to say "you get it from the sun". In the northern part of the world you will not get your daily requirement during the winter half year, which is a fact. Basically everyone in Scandinavia when being tested for vitamin D deficiency are under the line of what's recommended, and up to 10% of the population in Sweden are at values low enough to risk being directly damaging.

I agree that those living in the northern hemisphere would benefit in eating some meat, hence why there are way less vegetarians in these parts of the world. But that is not the case of most people Smiley

And yep, it's easier to eat meat and not have to worry about getting all essential nutriments. But it is possible to be perfectly healthy while being vegan, and getting all nutriments is really easy if you add the occasional eggs or dairy product on top of that. (For the records - I'm not vegan)

(Also, the estrogen-like substance in soy products is a problem only if you abuse them. Asians have been eating considerable amounts of soy since centuries)
What is your point with the last remark, out of curiosity? Estrogen isn't technically a 'bad' thing, but it is the female sex hormones, which should arguably not be consumed by men. I don't see the 'problem' you're referring to with abuse of the soy products, my point is that it's just not comparable to meat proteins because it's not the same thing. Soy products should be avoided for men while building muscles, etc, otherwise it's not a problem.

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lynn_402
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April 23, 2014, 01:12:00 AM
 #185

What is your point with the last remark, out of curiosity? Estrogen isn't technically a 'bad' thing, but it is the female sex hormones, which should arguably not be consumed by men. I don't see the 'problem' you're referring to with abuse of the soy products, my point is that it's just not comparable to meat proteins because it's not the same thing. Soy products should be avoided for men while building muscles, etc, otherwise it's not a problem.

Soy products contain the same types of amino acids (protein building-blocks) that are found in meat, so while digested, it is effectively the same thing. Indeed they contain estrogen, like many other foods, which in non-absurdly-big quantities does not affect men's hormonal balance. My point was that it's important to diversify our sources of proteins, because besides proteins, they contain other types of nutriments of which it's important to eat a balanced amount of, and eating too much of one thing is always bad no matter what it is.


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April 23, 2014, 01:23:55 AM
 #186

Kuroman, your argument is invalid. Eating meat triggered evolution because it was the most available source of complete proteins and nutriments for our ancestors, thus giving us an advantage over herbivores. However, there are alternatives which are just as good now, less wasteful, and more ethical.

How is it invalid? if it wasn't for eating meat you wouldn't be typing right now on this forum this is a fact, also consuming meats is not only about Proteins, but calcium, enzymes vitamins such as B12 ect, while yes you can mix several vegetables to by pass meat, the fact is, meat is the most naturally occurring, well balanced and easily obtained and digested package of proteins, essential acids and source of iron and Vitamin B 12 that you can find.  Somehow you must find and consume all of the things that meat provides so that your body can stay healthy.  A meat based high protein diet is good for you.  Even vegetarians are realizing they need meat in their diet (according to the power of meat website lol).

If we follow the same logic, why would you bother eating vegetables, when you can make all the nutritions you need artificially/chemically it doesn't make sens at all, also what doesn't make sense is the reply of the guy who's been claiming that being a vegetarian makes you smart that triggered my initial reply which is by any objective metric you can find it is not true.

Humans needs a balanced diet, meat shoudn't be abused, nor some types of vegetables, balance is the key

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April 23, 2014, 01:51:52 AM
 #187


I liked Lynn's arguments more but Here is my response from reading the article:

1. Vitamin B12
Multivitamins have this. Meat substitutes have this. Soy milk has this. Vegan cheese has this.
It's added to a lot of Vegan foods you can buy so we don't have a lack of this at all especially if you take a multivitamin daily.

2. Creatine
True we can't get it from eating plants alone, but like the article says: "Vegetarians who take creatine supplements see improvements in cognitive performance"

3. Vitamin D3
I don't see how this is a problem. When you go jogging every day, you will be exposed to the sun often and make more of your own Vitamin D3. Also you get this from Multivitamins if you take one daily.

4. Carnosine
Much like creatine, you can also get this from supplements if you wanted to.

5. Omega-3 Fatty Acids
Not unique to animals, you can get these from foods such as flaxseeds and chia seeds.


How is it invalid? if it wasn't for eating meat you wouldn't be typing right now on this forum this is a fact, also consuming meats is not only about Proteins, but calcium, enzymes vitamins such as B12 ect, while yes you can mix several vegetables to by pass meat, the fact is, meat is the most naturally occurring, well balanced and easily obtained and digested package of proteins, essential acids and source of iron and Vitamin B 12 that you can find.  Somehow you must find and consume all of the things that meat provides so that your body can stay healthy.  A meat based high protein diet is good for you.  Even vegetarians are realizing they need meat in their diet (according to the power of meat website lol).

If we follow the same logic, why would you bother eating vegetables, when you can make all the nutritions you need artificially/chemically it doesn't make sens at all, also what doesn't make sense is the reply of the guy who's been claiming that being a vegetarian makes you smart that triggered my initial reply which is by any objective metric you can find it is not true.

Humans needs a balanced diet, meat shoudn't be abused, nor some types of vegetables, balance is the key

If it weren't for plants you also wouldn't be here typing right now, this is a fact. You don't need to consume meat, all those nutrients you are talking about such as proteins, calcium, enzymes, vitamins such as B12, can all be found in meat substitutes:



These are much more easily available to produce and create than real meat. The nutrition you get from each would be roughly the same, though I would argue that the substitution meats would have more nutrients because they are plant based, as well as having less fat and zero cholesterol. Therefore making these foods the most easily obtained and digested package of proteins, essential acids and sources if iron and Vitamin B12 that you can find as it does not take months or years to make.

Humans don't need the balanced diet you are talking about to survive, as like you said, we can easily supplement ourselves. Plus we don't have such a high risk of diabetes, cancer, or heart disease from eating healthy and delicious tasting food.

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April 23, 2014, 02:21:21 AM
 #188

....but I found out every meat you can eat, there is a vegetable substitute that tastes exactly like it...

Do you have any suggested brand names that you think taste good?
In my experience, meat substitutes taste like "fake meat"/too much soy.

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April 23, 2014, 02:24:51 AM
 #189

....but I found out every meat you can eat, there is a vegetable substitute that tastes exactly like it...

Do you have any suggested brand names that you think taste good?
In my experience, meat substitutes taste like "fake meat"/too much soy.

The question was not directed at me, but I'd suggest Tofurkey sausages. There's one that is beer-flavoured, and another flavoured with polish spices. Both are great!

The secret to make meat substitutes taste good, is to cook them in a generous amount of olive oil, to mimick the fat and the umami flavour that is found in meat.

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April 23, 2014, 02:46:25 AM
 #190

....but I found out every meat you can eat, there is a vegetable substitute that tastes exactly like it...

Do you have any suggested brand names that you think taste good?
In my experience, meat substitutes taste like "fake meat"/too much soy.

The question was not directed at me, but I'd suggest Tofurkey sausages. There's one that is beer-flavoured, and another flavoured with polish spices. Both are great!

The secret to make meat substitutes taste good, is to cook them in a generous amount of olive oil, to mimick the fat and the umami flavour that is found in meat.

The question was not directed at me...
Anyone can answer.
Your suggestions sound really good, so I bookmarked this post.  Smiley

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April 23, 2014, 02:48:33 AM
 #191

....but I found out every meat you can eat, there is a vegetable substitute that tastes exactly like it...

Do you have any suggested brand names that you think taste good?
In my experience, meat substitutes taste like "fake meat"/too much soy.

The question was not directed at me, but I'd suggest Tofurkey sausages. There's one that is beer-flavoured, and another flavoured with polish spices. Both are great!

The secret to make meat substitutes taste good, is to cook them in a generous amount of olive oil, to mimick the fat and the umami flavour that is found in meat.

The question was not directed at me...
Anyone can answer.
Your suggestions sound really good, so I bookmarked this post.  Smiley


Cool! Don't forget afterwards to post in this thread about your experience Cheesy

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April 23, 2014, 03:33:16 AM
 #192

....but I found out every meat you can eat, there is a vegetable substitute that tastes exactly like it...

Do you have any suggested brand names that you think taste good?
In my experience, meat substitutes taste like "fake meat"/too much soy.

Like Lynn says, Tofurky sausages taste pretty much exactly like meat. Not all are vegan compatible though and they are mostly made up of soy, I still suggest trying them out though because they taste really good.

What I would recommend though is what most people have never heard of:





These patties are huge, mass of 106g, you wouldn't believe it was only 160 calories. They look like how they are in the pictures, wider than most burger buns. These come in packs of 12 for ~$10.50 so you can eat two a day and it will last you a week.



My favorite thing about them is that they are not mainly made up of soy. As you can see from the ingredients, it's made up of a bunch of different vegetables combined.  No artificial ingredients. And it tastes really really good. You can find these at some Wal-Marts, some Costcos, and some Sam's Clubs.

----

Another suggestion I have, although it's not vegan it's still very delicious:





Note how green it is on the inside, it's mostly made up of spinach and chickpeas and it tastes really good. You cook these or heat them up in a microwave and then you can eat it any way you want.

I haven't bought any of these lately for vegan reasons, so the only place I know that has them right now is Costco. I think they were around $8-$10 for a pack of 10, but overall these were much heavier than the Veggie patties shown above.

Veggie patch has a lot of different versions distributed to your local supermarkets but are otherwise are the same thing shown above.

----

Interesting facts about animal meat:
- They have zero fiber and are high in cholesterol
- They usually have zero carbs and have little if any antioxidants
- They are high in fats and high in the unhealthy kinds of fats
- Meat is treated with all sorts of toxics and chemicals crap not good for your body

Compare the nutrition facts above for the 106g of Veggie patty to this 85g of meat patty and tell me which one is better for you.


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April 23, 2014, 05:10:06 AM
 #193

Define torture and meat. Wouldn't having your throat slit be torture and then having your flesh ate be wrong? I'm not a veggie but its a question of morality for them so just because you think there's nothing wrong doesnt mean its right and vice versa.
It does mean that. How about we go and torture you for fun?
Torturing and killing is very different.


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April 23, 2014, 05:16:17 AM
 #194

Nothing, just make sure that you eat it in moderation, common sense that's all

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April 23, 2014, 06:22:02 AM
 #195

OP it seems you were leading an unhealthy lifestyle and had a bad diet before. You said you ate at all the fast-food places. Maybe that's why you feel better and more energized now.

Let's see now. According to Consumer Trends, 83% of Americans (Vegans only make up .5% of the population) have to drink coffee every single morning just so they can wake up for the day.



Then in the afternoon they have to drink even more coffee. Then companies started coming out with energy drinks just so these guys can get through their day without feeling so tired and lethargic all the time. They came out with drinks like Monster and 5 Hour Energy filled with tons of crap that's not good for your health and people actually drink it (there are actually a lot of deaths attributed to Monster and 5 Hour Energy and other energy drinks).

While your post about coffee-drinking Americans may be true, it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Most Americans lead sedentary lifestyles and gorge themselves on processed junk; of course they're going to feel like crap, whether they eat meat or not. A vegan who only eats processed foods and is lazy will probably have the same energy levels as the average unhealthy meat-eater. I've also read reports of people going vegan who developed medical issues over time due to severe nutritional imbalances. If you cut meat out of your diet completely, you really need to be on top of your game to ensure you get all your necessary nutrients. In fact, many doctors warn people from putting their children on vegan diets due to vegan-related deaths. I've heard there's even people who put their pet dogs and cats on vegan diets...

Oh yeah, that Einstein quote you mentioned isn't good advice; fatty acids are essential for us.

I don't think we're going to agree in the end, but to each their own. I don't eat meat often, and have gone months without eating it and felt fine. Would I cut it out completely? No. Would I recommend vegan diets for children? Of course not, that's inhumane.

http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet-veganbaby.html

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April 23, 2014, 07:01:53 AM
 #196

Absolutely nothing whatsoever
I hate vegans...

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April 23, 2014, 07:21:06 AM
 #197

I haven't been eating a lot of meat. It's a matter of compassion.
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April 23, 2014, 07:24:51 AM
 #198

There is nothing wrong with eating meat. Some people think it is wrong how the meat is raised, but that is understandable.

If humans all convert to vegans it will deplete the land fertility and all the unkilled animals will cause massive environmental disaster. Look at India its a hell hole where cows and all kinds of animals shit on your doorstep

Your post is lacking logic. Actually you have simplistic superficial logic.
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April 23, 2014, 09:57:14 AM
 #199

You guys should just accept that some people eat meat and will continue even if you talk about your veggie patties all day long. There is no "better way" here. Some people drink alcohol and some do not, same with meat, maybe it's less healthy than vegetables but it's a matter of taste.


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bitgeek
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April 23, 2014, 10:34:30 AM
 #200

You guys should just accept that some people eat meat and will continue even if you talk about your veggie patties all day long. There is no "better way" here. Some people drink alcohol and some do not, same with meat, maybe it's less healthy than vegetables but it's a matter of taste.

alcohol is injurious to health but people drink it bcoz of addiction i think there is no comparison B/W meat and alcohol Tongue   
I drink alcohol for the taste. I'm not an addict, but beer is sooo good Smiley


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