[XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency

[fluffypony]

It's like somebody insisting that Octocoin can replace Bitcoin, since hey - there is nothing in Bitcoin that wasn't in octocoin!

Sorry. Clones don't count. Only Bitcoin and Monero are legitimate coins.

I have looked far and wide, this is true and I speak with personal conviction since these are the only coins I hold permanently.

So now all alt coins are scams except Monero?  I thought Monero was a clone of Bytecoin?  And I asked what real innovation Monero has done over Bytecoin and still not got a clear answer, but now Monero is going to overtake Bitcoin?  Confused..

Who said we were going to overtake Bitcoin? I've never said anything of the sort.

We've literally told you the real innovation, both in written form and in pretty graphics, and you refuse to acknowledge the answers...so I guess here they are again. We can keep doing this all day.

Hi, sorry I don't get the actual use of all these features..  I am trying to ascertain, what are the *real world* benefits to users of this?  For example Dash recently implemented instant transactions, example of real world use is: "Let users buy stuff at same speed as credit card without waiting 15 minutes" - sorry to mention Dash, but I am trying to understand Monero innovation in these terms.  And quantify that against other Cryptonote coins in the market?  Is this possible?

Here, I wrote some catch phrases for you:

- new daemonize mode: Monero: no need to run it in a screen session!
- background forking on Unix-like operating systems Monero: if you love Linux you'll love how Monero forks!
- backgrounding on Windows via services Monero: the only CryptoNote that runs as a Windows service...sysadmins love us!
- QoS (bandwidth control) on both up and down links Monero: we're literally the only cryptocurrency that has this
- fallback blockchain storage in LMDB's vl32 experimental branch Monero: efficient storage on 32-bit devices
- alternate blockchain storage in Berkeley DB Monero: got ARM? We've got your blockchain storage solution!
- DNSSEC root keys Monero: DNSSEC where you need it most on a resolver
- DNSSEC verification for MoneroPulse (distributed checkpointing) Monero: safe, secure, distributed checkpoints keep your blockchain in sync
- DNSSEC verification for OpenAlias resolution Monero: now with OpenAlias cryptocurrency becomes easy, even for grandma!
- base support for Dr. Monero (performance analysis tool) Monero: don't get fed-up with a lack of tools, devops, we've got you covered
- new logging system, based on the same core subsystem as OpenTransactions Monero: all the logging, all the time
- gtest updated Monero: our tests use the latest gtest, because we're simply that cool
- libunbound updated Monero: no libunbound bugs for us!
- 32-bit fixes Monero: even your 5 year old Dell will run it...soon!
- ARM fixes Monero: got a Raspberry Pi? Monero loves you!

Hope this helps. I know that computers are big and scary, but I believe in you. You can do it!

[smooth]

It's like somebody insisting that Octocoin can replace Bitcoin, since hey - there is nothing in Bitcoin that wasn't in octocoin!

Sorry. Clones don't count. Only Bitcoin and Monero are legitimate coins.

I have looked far and wide, this is true and I speak with personal conviction since these are the only coins I hold permanently.

So now all alt coins are scams except Monero?  I thought Monero was a clone of Bytecoin?  And I asked what real innovation Monero has done over Bytecoin and still not got a clear answer, but now Monero is going to overtake Bitcoin?  Confused..

You're not actually confused, you are just advocating, because it has been explained to you before. But for others who may be reading and perhaps new to all this:

Bytecoin was enormously innovative (by unknown anonymous parties operating under the name "cryptonote") but launched in a fraudulent manner. Monero was created to take that same innovation, launch it in a non-frudulent manner, and continue development with a public and open development process, which is exactly what we have done.

Some of the other cryptonotes are indeed also frauds also launched by the original Bytecoin team (but in all cases lacking a credible public and open development process), but that's not really the point.

[BlockaFett]

We've literally told you the real innovation, both in written form and in pretty graphics, and you refuse to acknowledge the answers...so I guess here they are again. We can keep doing this all day.

I am still waiting for an inteligible answer to how does Monero have any unique value - other people have been a lot more helpful, you fluffy just post walls of text and marketing pictures.  Even Smooth said 'it's because everything else is a scam' which is good for him.

Why is it so hard for you to write a single sentence saying why Monero has unique value?

[smooth]

I also think it's kinda sad that Bytecoin failed so totally.

I agree. Nothing would have made me happier than to see Bytecoin not be a fraud and Monero not even exist.

[rpietila]

It is not that you have a divine right to claim anyone's time that's why.

Grab a coffee and read the last 2 pages, there are plenty of reasons. Pick the one you like. Move on.

[smooth]

Why is it so hard for you to write a single sentence saying why Monero has unique value?

Because the question is a setup. In open source, anything can be and usually is copied, so there is no such thing as "unique" value, aside from attributes outside the code such as the community, maturity, process, etc.

[BlockaFett]

It's like somebody insisting that Octocoin can replace Bitcoin, since hey - there is nothing in Bitcoin that wasn't in octocoin!

Sorry. Clones don't count. Only Bitcoin and Monero are legitimate coins.

I have looked far and wide, this is true and I speak with personal conviction since these are the only coins I hold permanently.

So now all alt coins are scams except Monero?  I thought Monero was a clone of Bytecoin?  And I asked what real innovation Monero has done over Bytecoin and still not got a clear answer, but now Monero is going to overtake Bitcoin?  Confused..

You're not actually confused, you are just advocating, because it has been explained to you before. But for others who may be reading and perhaps new to all this:

Bytecoin was enormously innovative (by unknown anonymous parties operating under the name "cryptonote") but launched in a fraudulent manner. Monero was created to take that same innovation, launch it in a non-frudulent manner, and continue development with a public and open development process, which is exactly what we have done.

Some of the other cryptonotes are indeed also frauds also launched by the original Bytecoin team (but in all cases lacking a credible public and open development process), but that's not really the point.

so all the cryptonote coins (aka competitors) are 'frauds' except Monero??

[rpietila]

The "competition" is in your imagination.

There provably are people who are interested in Dash, but of all the CN coins (except Monero), combined, fit in a room.



ADD: Only now saw the timestamps in the chart.  
(I like good stories -- why not more pre-2014 currencies?? )

[Johnny Mnemonic]

Monero is the only cryptocurrency that's truly fungible.

There's your value proposition. Feel free to prove me wrong. I won't be holding my breath.

Ok so we are getting somewhere...

but few problems with your valuable proposition - first, when you make a claim, the onous is on you to prove it, not for others to 'prove you wrong'.  

So generally you wouldn't put subjective opinions in your value proposition like 'truly', it sounds noobish because that's what you would say.  Like 'Bob's best fruit and veg stall'.

But then the problem is there are other coins that claim to be fungible, so your claim to be the 'only cryptocurrency' being fungible is also negated.  Unless you can convince investors otherwise.

Also, isn't Monero just a cryptonote clone without any real innovative changes for real world users, and there are other cryptonote coins, so how can Monero be the only fungible coin when all other cryptonote coins are too?

I agree it's my responsibility to prove my claims. The only reason I asked you to prove me wrong is because you showed up in this thread asking us to prove you wrong. It's amusing how you instantly become the reasonable guy when you're own tactics are redirected at you  

Monero is fungible because it's proven to be cryptographically untraceable and unlinkable. And I know you've seen the proofs because you've directly replied to comments on another thread that pointed them out.

Bytecoin isn't fungible because its creators own 4/5ths of the entire supply, making the ring signatures somewhat useless.

So the value proposition remains: Monero is the only truly fungible cryptocurrency.

Any more rebuttals?

[BlockaFett]

Monero is the only cryptocurrency that's truly fungible.

There's your value proposition. Feel free to prove me wrong. I won't be holding my breath.

Ok so we are getting somewhere...

but few problems with your valuable proposition - first, when you make a claim, the onous is on you to prove it, not for others to 'prove you wrong'.  

So generally you wouldn't put subjective opinions in your value proposition like 'truly', it sounds noobish because that's what you would say.  Like 'Bob's best fruit and veg stall'.

But then the problem is there are other coins that claim to be fungible, so your claim to be the 'only cryptocurrency' being fungible is also negated.  Unless you can convince investors otherwise.

Also, isn't Monero just a cryptonote clone without any real innovative changes for real world users, and there are other cryptonote coins, so how can Monero be the only fungible coin when all other cryptonote coins are too?

I agree it's my responsibility to prove my claims. The only reason I asked you to prove me wrong is because you showed up in this thread asking us to prove you wrong. It's amusing how you instantly become the reasonable guy when you're own tactics are redirected at you  

Monero is fungible because it's proven to be cryptographically untraceable and unlinkable. And I know you've seen the proofs because you've directly replied to comments on another thread that pointed them out.

Bytecoin isn't fungible because its creators own 4/5ths of the entire supply, making the ring signatures somewhat useless.

So the value proposition remains: Monero is the only truly fungible cryptocurrency.

Any more rebuttals?

The obvious question would be, how can Monero be the 'only truly' fungible cryptocurrency, if there are other cryptonote coins with the same tech?  (and obviously there are other coins that claim to be fungible so 'truly' is subjective)

[smooth]

It's like somebody insisting that Octocoin can replace Bitcoin, since hey - there is nothing in Bitcoin that wasn't in octocoin!

Sorry. Clones don't count. Only Bitcoin and Monero are legitimate coins.

I have looked far and wide, this is true and I speak with personal conviction since these are the only coins I hold permanently.

So now all alt coins are scams except Monero?  I thought Monero was a clone of Bytecoin?  And I asked what real innovation Monero has done over Bytecoin and still not got a clear answer, but now Monero is going to overtake Bitcoin?  Confused..

You're not actually confused, you are just advocating, because it has been explained to you before. But for others who may be reading and perhaps new to all this:

Bytecoin was enormously innovative (by unknown anonymous parties operating under the name "cryptonote") but launched in a fraudulent manner. Monero was created to take that same innovation, launch it in a non-frudulent manner, and continue development with a public and open development process, which is exactly what we have done.

Some of the other cryptonotes are indeed also frauds also launched by the original Bytecoin team (but in all cases lacking a credible public and open development process), but that's not really the point.

so all the cryptonote coins (aka competitors) are 'frauds' except Monero??

Sure I'll go down the list for those reading along:

1. Bytecoin - obvious fraud
2. Budhacoin, Paladincoin - obvious frauds that didn't exist before a month or so ago, but claim to be from 2012-2013
3. Monero - no comment
4. Boolberry - not an obvious fraud but the developer has some unknown apparent tie to the original Bytecoin fraud. Apparently intended as a non-fraudulent project, but no open process and a month late, so never got much traction. Also some questionable "innovations" that don't necessarily improve anything (for example the developer is apparently dropping his PoW "improvement" in his new project).
5. Darknote - possibly tied to the original Bytecoin fraud, but not proven. Totally opaque process, late, and little traction. Also the launch with an absurd name followed by a rename after the bulk of fast mining was pretty shady.
6. Quazarcoin, Mountcoin, Fantomcoin. All likely tied to Bytecoin. Late, no transparency, purchased dev accounts, no traction
7. rest - very late clones with no traction. Some may be tied to Bytecoin, unclear.

The technical value of Monero is 90% cryptonote (plus some other smaller things we done that are very popular with users such as deterministic wallets, or Monero-specific external projects such as MyMonero) and is 100% unique to the cryptonote ecosystem. The maturity, community, and development process value of Monero is 100% non-cryptonote and is entirely unique within the cryptonote ecosystem.

[BlockaFett]

It's like somebody insisting that Octocoin can replace Bitcoin, since hey - there is nothing in Bitcoin that wasn't in octocoin!

Sorry. Clones don't count. Only Bitcoin and Monero are legitimate coins.

I have looked far and wide, this is true and I speak with personal conviction since these are the only coins I hold permanently.

So now all alt coins are scams except Monero?  I thought Monero was a clone of Bytecoin?  And I asked what real innovation Monero has done over Bytecoin and still not got a clear answer, but now Monero is going to overtake Bitcoin?  Confused..

You're not actually confused, you are just advocating, because it has been explained to you before. But for others who may be reading and perhaps new to all this:

Bytecoin was enormously innovative (by unknown anonymous parties operating under the name "cryptonote") but launched in a fraudulent manner. Monero was created to take that same innovation, launch it in a non-frudulent manner, and continue development with a public and open development process, which is exactly what we have done.

Some of the other cryptonotes are indeed also frauds also launched by the original Bytecoin team (but in all cases lacking a credible public and open development process), but that's not really the point.

so all the cryptonote coins (aka competitors) are 'frauds' except Monero??

Sure I'll go down the list for those reading along:

1. Bytecoin - obvious fraud
2. Budhacoin, Paladincoin - obvious frauds that didn't exist before a month or so ago, but claim to be from 2012-2013
3. Monero - no comment
4. Boolberry - not an obvious fraud but the developer has some unknown apparent tie to the original Bytecoin fraud. Apparently intended as a non-fraudulent project, but no open process and a month late, so never got much traction. Also some questionable "innovations" that don't necessarily improve anything (for example the developer is apparently dropping his PoW "improvement" in his new project).
5. Darknote - possibly tied to the original Bytecoin fraud, but not proven. Totally opaque process and little traction. Also the launch with an absurd name followed by a rename after the bulk of fast mining was pretty shady.
6. Quazarcoin, Mountcoin, Fantomcoin. All likely tied to Bytecoin. Late, no transparency, purchased dev accounts, no traction
7. rest - very late clones with no traction. Some may be tied to Bytecoin, unclear.

The technical value of Monero is 90% cryptonote (plus some other smaller things we done that are very popular with users such as deterministic wallets, or Monero-specific external projects such as MyMonero) and is 100% unique to the cryptonote ecosystem. The maturity, community, and development process value of Monero is 100% non-cryptonote and is entirely unique within the cryptonote ecosystem.

But I have seen you spending a lot of time on the Dashcoin thread trying to help them resurrect that, which is also Cryptonote, is that a scam too??

[Johnny Mnemonic]

The obvious question would be, how can Monero be the 'only truly' fungible cryptocurrency, if there are other cryptonote coins with the same tech?  (and obviously there are other coins that claim to be fungible so 'truly' is subjective)

I already explained that, but I will again.

It's "truly" fungible because it's proven to be untraceable and unlinkable.

Bytecoin isn't fungible because they own almost every coin that you don't.

[fluffypony]

The obvious question would be, how can Monero be the 'only truly' fungible cryptocurrency, if there are other cryptonote coins with the same tech?  (and obviously there are other coins that claim to be fungible so 'truly' is subjective)

Which CryptoNote cryptocurrencies have even discovered the issues we found in MRL-0001 or MRL-0004, much less fixed them? Without that how can they even pretend fungibility?

[rpietila]

BCN free float is about 0.1%. Revi siitä huumoria 

[BlockaFett]

The obvious question would be, how can Monero be the 'only truly' fungible cryptocurrency, if there are other cryptonote coins with the same tech?  (and obviously there are other coins that claim to be fungible so 'truly' is subjective)

Which CryptoNote cryptocurrencies have even discovered the issues we found in MRL-0001 or MRL-0004, much less fixed them? Without that how can they even pretend fungibility?

I don't know, but i'm guessing it's not possible to describe it in one sentence, instead I have to read more pages of text?

So far I got this:

Monero is the only truly fungible cryptocurrency

...

[BlockaFett]

The obvious question would be, how can Monero be the 'only truly' fungible cryptocurrency, if there are other cryptonote coins with the same tech?  (and obviously there are other coins that claim to be fungible so 'truly' is subjective)

Monero is the only truly fungible cryptocurrency I'm interested in spending my time and energy on. Your opposition only makes my commitment harder.

ok.. for me that's missing any reason as to why Monero is the only truly fungible crypto, or how Monero is and other cryptonote coins are not.  Maybe there isn't a reasson, but I am open to finding out. It's taking quite a long time though......

[GingerAle]

The obvious question would be, how can Monero be the 'only truly' fungible cryptocurrency, if there are other cryptonote coins with the same tech?  (and obviously there are other coins that claim to be fungible so 'truly' is subjective)

this is 17 pages, but you won't read it, but its needed in response to your cryptonote "history" chart:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=740112.0

Regarding other cryptonote coins, I think monero is "truly" fungible because most of the others are scams wherein small numbers of individuals hold lotsa coins, therefore compromising the strength of ring signatures.

Regarding other cryptocurrencies, I think monero is "truly" fungible because it uses ring signatures to provide its fungibility.

[smooth]

Sure I'll go down the list for those reading along:

1. Bytecoin - obvious fraud
2. Budhacoin, Paladincoin - obvious frauds that didn't exist before a month or so ago, but claim to be from 2012-2013
3. Monero - no comment
4. Boolberry - not an obvious fraud but the developer has some unknown apparent tie to the original Bytecoin fraud. Apparently intended as a non-fraudulent project, but no open process and a month late, so never got much traction. Also some questionable "innovations" that don't necessarily improve anything (for example the developer is apparently dropping his PoW "improvement" in his new project).
5. Darknote - possibly tied to the original Bytecoin fraud, but not proven. Totally opaque process and little traction. Also the launch with an absurd name followed by a rename after the bulk of fast mining was pretty shady.
6. Quazarcoin, Mountcoin, Fantomcoin. All likely tied to Bytecoin. Late, no transparency, purchased dev accounts, no traction
7. rest - very late clones with no traction. Some may be tied to Bytecoin, unclear.

The technical value of Monero is 90% cryptonote (plus some other smaller things we done that are very popular with users such as deterministic wallets, or Monero-specific external projects such as MyMonero) and is 100% unique to the cryptonote ecosystem. The maturity, community, and development process value of Monero is 100% non-cryptonote and is entirely unique within the cryptonote ecosystem.

But I have seen you spending a lot of time on the Dashcoin thread trying to help them resurrect that, which is also Cryptonote, is that a scam too??

I've spent very little time on the dashcoin thread (maybe 15 minutes total, mostly encouraging the community to take care of itself) since responding to Evan's heavy handed actions in paying off its developer to abandon it. Anyway, included within:

7. rest - very late clones with no traction. Some may be tied to Bytecoin, unclear.

[BlockaFett]

The obvious question would be, how can Monero be the 'only truly' fungible cryptocurrency, if there are other cryptonote coins with the same tech?  (and obviously there are other coins that claim to be fungible so 'truly' is subjective)

this is 17 pages, but you won't read it, but its needed in response to your cryptonote "history" chart:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=740112.0

Regarding other cryptonote coins, I think monero is "truly" fungible because most of the others are scams wherein small numbers of individuals hold lotsa coins, therefore compromising the strength of ring signatures.

Regarding other cryptocurrencies, I think monero is "truly" fungible because it uses ring signatures to provide its fungibility.

OK, I will take that....  Thanks GingerAle..