[ANN][MOTO] Motocoin

[psychocoin]

Wouldn't a mining pool for botters destroy the little value Motocoin still has? You could succeed almost every 51% attack, if you wanted to.

If Motocoin is no longer human minable, which was its main selling point - what does it still have left?

[coelto]

We need on open source bot, so everyone could mine it as bitcoin or over coins)

[ivanlabrie]

I've been speaking with one of the other botters now, we randomly bumped into each other on c-cex chat...

It seems he likely triggered the big sell-off last night.  It looked to him like the network was having problem, and at the same time the buy side of the book was thinning, so he did the perfectly rational thing and sold the lot.  Woops, the network *wasn't* having any problems, and the buy side showed resiliency and refilled the books quickly (despite leaving an epic spread over an order of magnitude large) albeit at a large discount bid.

The index error seems to be a side-effect of some weird blocks, and is annoying but benign.  The fork rate of the network today is actually *much* lower than yesterday so far, probably because all 3-4 of us botters seem to have backed off slightly since being "discovered" and coming to the realization that we could quickly compete ourselves out of a market to sell to.....

(I'd like to set up something like a mining pool for the botters so that we can compete without risking such extreme chain forks.  Yesterday's huge forks were painful for everyone.)

I think that since there wasn't actually some fundamental trigger for the selloff that bidding competition should cause the price to gradually recover.  I would take the fact that the sell side is not racing to the bottom as a very good sign.  In other words, I personally think this might be a rare, great buying opportunity!  (In fact, I have now bought back over half as many coins as I've sold over the past days, heh.) Also, I would expect that if/when this coin launches on a second exchange the price would rebound almost instantly.

Interesting, I've been following your posts...great work man, mad props :p

I find this coin really cool as well, might get big some day, it definitely is a breath of fresh air.

What do you know, maybe C-CEX becomes the next great big thing, when it comes to alt exchange sites as a side effect too xD

[myhoho]

 Yeah. The only way this coin can become popular is human-minable feature so the fight agaist all the bots must be the main aim for now on. The market is ruined and I think that we should think about complete relaunch (or another hard fork on block 8000). Yes, I'm saying that keeping in mind that yesterday I had 3+ BTC worth of Motocoin...

[wilppuse]

Yeah. The only way this coin can become popular is human-minable feature so the fight agaist all the bots must be the main aim for now on. The market is ruined and I think that we should think about complete relaunch (or another hard fork on block 8000). Yes, I'm saying that keeping in mind that yesterday I had 3+ BTC worth of Motocoin...

Would relaunch mean all motos that are mined till now become worthless?

[psychocoin]

Yeah. The only way this coin can become popular is human-minable feature so the fight agaist all the bots must be the main aim for now on. The market is ruined and I think that we should think about complete relaunch (or another hard fork on block 8000). Yes, I'm saying that keeping in mind that yesterday I had 3+ BTC worth of Motocoin...

Would relaunch mean all motos that are mined till now become worthless?

They were never worth anything more than the belief of people who think the concept is worth something.

Relaunch makes sense only if the measures taken against bots can be assured to work long term. The measures proposed so far most definitely cannot.

[ivanlabrie]

If it's human mineable, then it'll be bot mineable...that's what logic would make me think at least.
Interesting concept, a few orders of magnitude above my league heh, will watch from the sides.

[stompix]

We need on open source bot, so everyone could mine it as bitcoin or over coins)

And there goes all the fun about the coin.
But really , everything that a human can do , a bot can do better and faster so there will be never a bot free coin .

[greco]

wordswordswords

Botting has/will ruined/ruin this coin completely.  Now that the value has dropped so much the incentive for humans to "mine" has dropped greatly leaving a majority of botters.  Since botters are essentially getting it for free they can cash out and be in profit at anytime.  I'm sure they'll race to do so, to "secure profits".

I regret spending any time on this coin altogether now- really a bummer to see it going into death throws so early.

[BillTech]

add some sort of simple captcha when ya hit play maybe? *shrugs*

[ivanlabrie]

add some sort of simple captcha when ya hit play maybe? *shrugs*

Genius! xD

At least the botter will have to deal with captchas to make money lol

[stompix]

add some sort of simple captcha when ya hit play maybe? *shrugs*

Bots can solve captchas also
Also , how do you plan on doing the check?

It was a project about a coin that required captchas to solve blocks but .. people realized it was such a pain that it got abandoned.

[HunterMinerCrafter]

Wouldn't a mining pool for botters destroy the little value Motocoin still has? You could succeed almost every 51% attack, if you wanted to.

To be quite frank, I could trivially 51% attack the network right now.  Heck, I could probably 99% attack it if I wanted to.  I'm sure the other bot operators are in similar position.  Like I said, I currently intend to be benevolent.  (I'm afraid that I can't speak for the others, but if it appears that attacks are imminent/occurring I will certainly scale up to try to help stop them!)

The point of the mining pool would actually be just the opposite, to prevent *incidental* damage to the network security, as we saw happening yesterday.  Because of the combination of aggressively ramped-up bots, a low fullnode count, and what was either some DDoS activity or just some misbehaving nodes, we saw some massive soft-forks yesterday.  Two of these forks each wiped over an hours worth of forked blocks out of existence.  That sort of thing will lead to exchanges de-listing the coin in a heartbeat, and *that* would destroy the coin's value.  I want to set up a botters' mining pool to *avoid* problems on the network, not to create them.  (Ideally we would have multiple pools, but I suspect that there will not be enough people to really distribute the hashing strength well.)

If Motocoin is no longer human minable, which was its main selling point - what does it still have left?

I'm pretty sure it says in the whitepaper that a goal was to make it so that even if bots are competitive, humans could still play/compete.  Perhaps this should be made the primary goal ASAP!

It might take some incredible measures, it might even take some new science, but I think it is (or will be) possible to structure the coin such that bots and humans can compete on a nearly level playing field.

[BillTech]

add some sort of simple captcha when ya hit play maybe? *shrugs*

Bots can solve captchas also
Also , how do you plan on doing the check?

It was a project about a coin that required captchas to solve blocks but .. people realized it was such a pain that it got abandoned.

Hi not too sure but some kind of randomised captcha within the program might not be as easily botted like html stuff

[HunterMinerCrafter]

Botting has/will ruined/ruin this coin completely.  Now that the value has dropped so much the incentive for humans to "mine" has dropped greatly leaving a majority of botters.

It should be noted that it was a knee-jerk reactionary decision of a human which tanked the price.  The human was behaving rationally, based on the (bad/incorrect) information that he had at the moment.  Any good trading bot wouldn't have acted until it could confirm what it was seeing as "real" and then would've systematically sold quietly and subtly so as not to affect market sensitivities.  Instead this human freaked out and dumped a load of coins, and then the trading bots did their (now entirely rational) thing and dumped their coins, and then a bunch of other humans freaked out and dumped their coins, and now we have 0.000004BTC/MOTO....

The rest of us botters were happily trading our coins without tanking the market... don't blame a whole group of people for one person's (entirely understandable) honest mistake.

  Since botters are essentially getting it for free they can cash out and be in profit at anytime.  I'm sure they'll race to do so, to "secure profits".

WHOA NOW, our seigniorage is not infinite or we'd all have become world leaders today with our infy moto-monies.  This simply isn't how things work.  We *do* have costs... the energy costs (dollar for dollar) might be drastically lower than, for example, mining BTC, but I am still burning some (slowly increasing, heh) electricity... I still have to maintain computers, pay for internet, keep them housed somewhere, etc.  Not to mention my own direct opportunity costs (I certainly could've made more money by spending the time I used to code my bots on coding for my clients) and indirect opportunity costs (by using these CPUs to mine moto I can't use them as servers for hosting, for example) and so on and so on.  Let's not be disillusioned, we are not making "loads of free money" here.  (BTW from what I can tell I am actually making far less than the other botters because I throttle my blocks, and they don't seem to be doing so.)  We cannot scale indefinitely for free.  In fact, with each block that passes our expectation diminishes - which is entirely how a cryptocoin is "supposed to work" so this is actually good news!  

I regret spending any time on this coin altogether now- really a bummer to see it going into death throws so early.

Funny, it seems to me like (despite the (hopefully temporary) price setback) this coin is more alive than ever.  For days I watched it go unnoticed and unmentioned everywhere... but today people sure are talking about it!

[lousk]

Botting has/will ruined/ruin this coin completely.

But this was inevitable. There are already several people running their separately made bots, so it never was an exclusively human-minable coin. And yeah, in theory any human action can be automated, but I'm sure it's possible to have a skill-based game that can't be automated for a long time (so it would make sense to claim exclusively human-minable in practice).

HMC: Impressive work. 9147 was funny. :--)

[greco]

It should be noted that it was a knee-jerk reactionary decision of a human which tanked the price.  The human was behaving rationally, based on the (bad/incorrect) information that he had at the moment.  Any good trading bot wouldn't have acted until it could confirm what it was seeing as "real" and then would've systematically sold quietly and subtly so as not to affect market sensitivities.  Instead this human freaked out and dumped a load of coins, and then the trading bots did their (now entirely rational) thing and dumped their coins, and then a bunch of other humans freaked out and dumped their coins, and now we have 0.000004BTC/MOTO....

I wasn't talking about trading bots?  I was talking about the bots that play motocoin that allow the limited number of moto-miners who use them to gain an advantage over human miners.

The rest of us botters were happily trading our coins without tanking the market... don't blame a whole group of people for one person's (entirely understandable) honest mistake.

The point isn't just that the market tanked, it's that bot users (minority) will own a majority of the currency without nearly the same effort as it would take without bots.

WHOA NOW, our seigniorage is not infinite or we'd all have become world leaders today with our infy moto-monies.  This simply isn't how things work.  We *do* have costs... the energy costs (dollar for dollar) might be drastically lower than, for example, mining BTC, but I am still burning some (slowly increasing, heh) electricity... I still have to maintain computers, pay for internet, keep them housed somewhere, etc.

Right, the same cost as a human miner on a regular pc - until you start multiplying your instances.  I should have clarified that the main cost of Motocoin (to me) seems like it's time/thought, something bots can provide indefinitely if powered.

  

Not to mention my own direct opportunity cost

lol, that's exactly what botters take from human miners.

 Let's not be disillusioned, we are not making "loads of free money" here.  (BTW from what I can tell I am actually making far less than the other botters because I throttle my blocks, and they don't seem to be doing so.)  We cannot scale indefinitely for free.  In fact, with each block that passes our expectation diminishes - which is entirely how a cryptocoin is "supposed to work" so this is actually good news!  

I'm pretty sure I'm not disillusioned- thanks for that though.  I also never claimed "loads off free money" were being made - just that botters will sell at profit.  Profit (again, to me) means above breaking even.  The cost to bot Motocoins is lower then the cost for a human to mine.  

[e1ghtSpace]

Giveaways
There will be giveaways when it becomes extremely difficult to mine.

I'm waiting

[HunterMinerCrafter]

 

Not to mention my own direct opportunity cost

lol, that's exactly what botters take from human miners.

I'm pretty sure that we only remove indirect opportunity costs... that person is going to be spending that time playing that game whether we are in the scenario or not.

Profit (again, to me) means above breaking even.  The cost to bot Motocoins is lower then the cost for a human to mine.

The energy cost is probably much higher, brains are very energy efficient and food is cheap.

The time cost is probably the real factor, eventually, but not yet.  My bots currently average a block every couple of minutes - on par with what a dedicated, skilled player could do.  However my bots can run 24/7 where a most dedicated human can probably only mine about 16/6 or so, realistically. (And still stay sane.)

As difficulty continues to increase, I'm sure the bots will soon be mining much faster, and will overtake humans on "time efficiency" of mining....

This brings to mind an interesting point: perhaps the "real" problem here is the level reset on new blocks.  I suspect we could find a way to allow players to continue working on their current map indefinitely, and submit their "win" if/whenever they do happen to find it.  In this way, bots could quietly mine away "in the background" and would still compete with players (via TargetTime) but wouldn't disrupt those players.  I have a rough idea of how this might be able to work: when you start a map you create a tx announcing your intent to play and your game doesn't start until your tx is mined and then seeds the map with the block in which your tx was mined.  When you submit your PoW it must reference your tx hash to be valid.  The initiation TX could even be given a fixed fee (like Huntercoin) which would help to create demand for the coin. (Since you'd need one to start a game.)  This model would be similar to what has already worked well for HUC I think.

[merlin0113]

Botting has/will ruined/ruin this coin completely.  Now that the value has dropped so much the incentive for humans to "mine" has dropped greatly leaving a majority of botters.

It should be noted that it was a knee-jerk reactionary decision of a human which tanked the price.  The human was behaving rationally, based on the (bad/incorrect) information that he had at the moment.  Any good trading bot wouldn't have acted until it could confirm what it was seeing as "real" and then would've systematically sold quietly and subtly so as not to affect market sensitivities.  Instead this human freaked out and dumped a load of coins, and then the trading bots did their (now entirely rational) thing and dumped their coins, and then a bunch of other humans freaked out and dumped their coins, and now we have 0.000004BTC/MOTO....

The rest of us botters were happily trading our coins without tanking the market... don't blame a whole group of people for one person's (entirely understandable) honest mistake.

  Since botters are essentially getting it for free they can cash out and be in profit at anytime.  I'm sure they'll race to do so, to "secure profits".

WHOA NOW, our seigniorage is not infinite or we'd all have become world leaders today with our infy moto-monies.  This simply isn't how things work.  We *do* have costs... the energy costs (dollar for dollar) might be drastically lower than, for example, mining BTC, but I am still burning some (slowly increasing, heh) electricity... I still have to maintain computers, pay for internet, keep them housed somewhere, etc.  Not to mention my own direct opportunity costs (I certainly could've made more money by spending the time I used to code my bots on coding for my clients) and indirect opportunity costs (by using these CPUs to mine moto I can't use them as servers for hosting, for example) and so on and so on.  Let's not be disillusioned, we are not making "loads of free money" here.  (BTW from what I can tell I am actually making far less than the other botters because I throttle my blocks, and they don't seem to be doing so.)  We cannot scale indefinitely for free.  In fact, with each block that passes our expectation diminishes - which is entirely how a cryptocoin is "supposed to work" so this is actually good news!  

I regret spending any time on this coin altogether now- really a bummer to see it going into death throws so early.

Funny, it seems to me like (despite the (hopefully temporary) price setback) this coin is more alive than ever.  For days I watched it go unnoticed and unmentioned everywhere... but today people sure are talking about it!

Does hehe means you are a chinese? Good english btw.