[ANN] ORA :: NXT 'monetary system' currency

[jokudaman]

Pff, I would rather buy Monero, not this altcoin.

[Kora]

Pff, I would rather buy Monero, not this altcoin.

You can do both!!!!

Buy Monero, and get Kora free!!


Keep following this thread for news on when the Kora registration webapp goes live. Make sure to read the announcement though. Your comment indicates you haven't understood that Kora will be free, so I think you didn't read what Kora is all about

[coinpump]

...
Kora will have 10,000,000,000 coins, equally shared to all stakeholders.
I'm taking advice on the best coin supply total, so let me know your opinions. I've allowed myself to be convinced by some well thought out reasoning that 50 Million Kora is *probably* better than 10 billion.
...

I don't like 50 Million number. It's harder to calculate price from market cap than with 1 billion.
I suggest that number should start with 1 and have all 0s after that.

Why do you think that "50 Million Kora is *probably* better than 10 billion" ?

If we are going to have up to 8 decimal digits anyway, then why not make it 1 million or 1 billion or 1 trillion ?

One thing that matters to me is how many 0s I have to count when trading.
Total number of coins should be chosen to help with that.
I guess 10 billion was chosen for QORA to match current total market cap 10 billion USD, which will become convenient when QORA takes over the market and 1 QORA becomes = 1 USD, which improves convenience of QORA/USD trading.

I think NXT choice of 1 billion was good number, 0000 is readable and if it takes over BTC then NXT will cost around 10$ - also readable.
I'd like to see something similar with KORA - 1 billion or may be 100 million or 10 million, but not 50 million or 5 million or 500 million.

[Kora]

...
Kora will have 10,000,000,000 coins, equally shared to all stakeholders.
I'm taking advice on the best coin supply total, so let me know your opinions. I've allowed myself to be convinced by some well thought out reasoning that 50 Million Kora is *probably* better than 10 billion.
...

I don't like 50 Million number. It's harder to calculate price from market cap than with 1 billion.
I suggest that number should start with 1 and have all 0s after that.

Why do you think that "50 Million Kora is *probably* better than 10 billion" ?

If we are going to have up to 8 decimal digits anyway, then why not make it 1 million or 1 billion or 1 trillion ?

One thing that matters to me is how many 0s I have to count when trading.
Total number of coins should be chosen to help with that.
I guess 10 billion was chosen for QORA to match current total market cap 10 billion USD, which will become convenient when QORA takes over the market and 1 QORA becomes = 1 USD, which improves convenience of QORA/USD trading.

I think NXT choice of 1 billion was good number, 0000 is readable and if it takes over BTC then NXT will cost around 10$ - also readable.
I'd like to see something similar with KORA - 1 billion or may be 100 million or 10 million, but not 50 million or 5 million or 500 million.

I think you make many valid points!! Having a 1 with 0s is much better for making mental calculations on the fly than messing around with a '5'. You are right I've been doing some things with monero this week and the 18 million figure does became painful to work with in your head.

It looks like we're getting close to the coin supply then. 10 billion was too high, so I think it's either:
- 1,000,000,000
- 100,000,000
- 10,000,000
- 1,000,000

The other opinion that made sense to me was that too large a number doesn't give users good 'psychology' (we want a Kora to be closer to a common unit like 10 cents, or 1 dollar), so maybe the perfect number is 100,000,000.

100 Million Kora might give us the perfect balance! With 8 decimal places if/when Kora goes up in value we revert to milli Kora.

[Pentamon]

I am definitely interested in Kora's approach.

About the distribution:
What about: One stake per Human?   

Is that fair?  What does that mean, anyway?

I wonder if there is any way to do this without opening the can of worms that is called Biometrics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometrics

Consider this approach:

It has to be designed in such a way that it propagates itself, but does not reward the initial starting group. Any IPO process is inherently unfair, since it is occurring in a certain point in time, and everyone entering later, is at an disadvantage.

First create the coins, and the distributed network, similar to NXT or Qora, but do not "populate" them with owners. The coins only take on value, if they have "owners" and the owners get added in in such a fashion:

Start with an initial group: a network of humans that know, and vouch for each other.

Every person who has received a stake, can mature into a "banker" - that is an account that has the capability to identify and recruit 10 more individuals. "Mining" or "forging" occurs that moment when a new stakeholder has been appointed by an existing one. (just like current banks create the value out of thin air).  Any stakeholder can do that only 10 times in his/her life. (One for each fingerprint?)

So the coins are "pre-created" but not "pre-mined".  Mining or Forging occurs when new owners are populating (taking ownership of) the coins.

I think there are smart individuals out here, who can work out how many coins should be in the total pool, and how many should be in a stake, so that all the (future) humans on this planet can have an adequate supply of usable coin units.

The coins, once given value by being owned by new stakeholders, of course can be used and traded like any other currency.

But... this will not work, because nobody here can let go of their greed to get in on the original creation of value. Nobody will want to spend energy on something that might empower the ones that follow us. Nobody wants to be a 'banker' without getting rich through it.

Maybe we can have another three-letter-acronymn: PoP  - Proof of Person??

Pentamon

[Schultereisen]

Yeaahhh nice !!!

Catch Koro to destroy Qora !

[z21770179]

great,it's a nice coin
Very much looking forward to the game to come out as soon as possible
I think I will like her very much 

[Kora]

I am definitely interested in Kora's approach.

About the distribution:
What about: One stake per Human?   

Is that fair?  What does that mean, anyway?

I wonder if there is any way to do this without opening the can of worms that is called Biometrics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometrics

Consider this approach:

It has to be designed in such a way that it propagates itself, but does not reward the initial starting group. Any IPO process is inherently unfair, since it is occurring in a certain point in time, and everyone entering later, is at an disadvantage.

First create the coins, and the distributed network, similar to NXT or Qora, but do not "populate" them with owners. The coins only take on value, if they have "owners" and the owners get added in in such a fashion:

Start with an initial group: a network of humans that know, and vouch for each other.

Every person who has received a stake, can mature into a "banker" - that is an account that has the capability to identify and recruit 10 more individuals. "Mining" or "forging" occurs that moment when a new stakeholder has been appointed by an existing one. (just like current banks create the value out of thin air).  Any stakeholder can do that only 10 times in his/her life. (One for each fingerprint?)

So the coins are "pre-created" but not "pre-mined".  Mining or Forging occurs when new owners are populating (taking ownership of) the coins.

I think there are smart individuals out here, who can work out how many coins should be in the total pool, and how many should be in a stake, so that all the (future) humans on this planet can have an adequate supply of usable coin units.

The coins, once given value by being owned by new stakeholders, of course can be used and traded like any other currency.

But... this will not work, because nobody here can let go of their greed to get in on the original creation of value. Nobody will want to spend energy on something that might empower the ones that follow us. Nobody wants to be a 'banker' without getting rich through it.

Maybe we can have another three-letter-acronymn: PoP  - Proof of Person??

Pentamon

Great post Pentamon, thanks! You raise some very interesting points. 'One stake per Human' is my goal for Kora, and I think for many people interested in seeing crypto currencies thrive and do good in the world, it is the high water mark for coin distribution. For me 'One stake per Human' *should* mean that I can register a stake for my children, and my elderly parents, and other 'dependants'. Please note that I said *should*, because I know setting up a system where people could register a stake on behalf of another person would be a red rag to a bull as far as sockpuppeters is concerned, so preventing abuse by multi-account scammers would become a major effort. I think it is possible to setup such a system, but very difficult without requiring people to upload identity documents. I believe eventually someone will propose a coin with 100% POS free distribution, and they will try to airdrop to a particular community based on 'One stake per Human' using some form of identity checking.

Many financial institutions are required already to collect identity documents for AML & KYC purposes, so I think eventually a big player will try and bootstrap a coin on a mass scale using existing document collecting & verification procedures. Many people in the crypto community NOW obviously value their privacy, so many would be against a coin that asked for identity documents, but I think it is almost inevitable somebody will do this, and they'll probably be very successful - 'free money if you upload 2 identity documents and install an app on your phone' - It is inevitable.

As for your suggestions regarding the problems with distributing all the coins at the beginning, I like the idea of issuing larger amounts to people who acts as 'redistribution agents', and then those people distribute to new people etc etc It has a lot of appeal.

I think the problem is 'trust' - how can you force the people to distribute and not hoard? It's the 'tragedy of the commons' (similar to game theory), and everyone has a strong incentive to NOT distribute to the next level, and hope everyone else does so the coin survives but they have more coins.

Many would argue that the best means of distribution is selling for profit by the first batch of stakeholders, and then as the price slowly goes up, new entrants sell/distribute to the next wave of users, and then the price goes up a little more so they sell to the next wave etc etc. I can see problems with both approaches, (i.e. distribute via selling for profit vs trusting the 'distribution bankers' to honestly distribute and not cheat), but the goal of saving coins for later distribution is very worthwhile.

I am a big believer in the potential of DACs (distributed autonomous corporations), which in my mind are software that has been programmed to perform all the functions of a business. Many businesses, especially ones involving money *could* be programmed into software without the need for human intervention. The functions of Banking, insurance, stock issuing, bond issuing etc could be fully automated one day, and eventually I think DACs will revolutionise many industries, in the same way the internet already has.

I believe in the not too distant future it would be possible to program a 'coin distribution DAC' that was capable of distributing coins over a long period of time using identity checking in some automated secure way, that would allow coins to be distributed slowly, so later generations of people could still get a fair share.

Instead of having people act in the role of 'redistribution bankers' as you called them, the DAC could be programmed to perform that function. If the DAC was programmed 'correctly' the coin distribution could happen over years, and it would not require 'trusting' anybody, and everything would be transparent on the coin's blockchain.

I think a DAC distributed 100% POS coin is the long term answer for crypto currencies - POW is flawed, but 100% POS coins have the 'how do we distribute fairly' problem. NXT & Qora had very poor distributions, NEM was better but still not very wide, and it doesn't allow for any distribution to late comers.

The long term fair distribution is obviously to use your suggestion and NOT distribute all the coins to the first wave of users so you can keep coins for later users, but who can we trust to safe keep the coins and honestly perform the 'One stake per Human' check? Answer, a distribution DAC!

Crypto is evolving. Bitcoin was like the first early human ancestor who climbed down from the trees in Africa. NXT is like the first human ancestor to use a stone tool. Qora, NEM & Kora can all make evolutionary progress, but if we're honest they're still basically hairy man-monkey creatures walking around - they're like homo erectus & neanderthals, and not the equivalent of a modern human. A 100% POS coin distributed by a DAC using identity checking would be very close to a 'fully evolved crypto' IMO

[blackhatzw]

I have created a Chinese QQ group,#337603721, please join it freely, I will build a Chinese forum later on.

[paul.r.k]

I'm a little late for original Qora, so I'm looking forward to this.

[paul.r.k]

Sharecoin was surely the best. Fair distribution and the coin rised till 600 sat. Sharecoin didn't died for being free but only because the dev is interested only in the exchange Sharexcoin and not in the coin itself, that was just an instrument ( but he never asked to someone to invest, the coins were free and so I cannot say a bad word about them)

I'm a little bit nervous nowadays about PoS coins because of various scams surrounding them.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=644560.msg7200050#msg7200050

I'm probably old-minded but to be honest, I disagree with the statement:

1 -100% POS coins are superior to POW coins
2...

They are two different things, absolutely. At least, PoW coins cost fraudsters an additional spending for mining operation.

[Pentamon]

I am definitely interested in Kora's approach.

About the distribution:
What about: One stake per Human?   

Is that fair?  What does that mean, anyway?

I wonder if there is any way to do this without opening the can of worms that is called Biometrics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biometrics

Consider this approach:

It has to be designed in such a way that it propagates itself, but does not reward the initial starting group. Any IPO process is inherently unfair, since it is occurring in a certain point in time, and everyone entering later, is at an disadvantage.

First create the coins, and the distributed network, similar to NXT or Qora, but do not "populate" them with owners. The coins only take on value, if they have "owners" and the owners get added in in such a fashion:

Start with an initial group: a network of humans that know, and vouch for each other.

Every person who has received a stake, can mature into a "banker" - that is an account that has the capability to identify and recruit 10 more individuals. "Mining" or "forging" occurs that moment when a new stakeholder has been appointed by an existing one. (just like current banks create the value out of thin air).  Any stakeholder can do that only 10 times in his/her life. (One for each fingerprint?)

So the coins are "pre-created" but not "pre-mined".  Mining or Forging occurs when new owners are populating (taking ownership of) the coins.

I think there are smart individuals out here, who can work out how many coins should be in the total pool, and how many should be in a stake, so that all the (future) humans on this planet can have an adequate supply of usable coin units.

The coins, once given value by being owned by new stakeholders, of course can be used and traded like any other currency.

But... this will not work, because nobody here can let go of their greed to get in on the original creation of value. Nobody will want to spend energy on something that might empower the ones that follow us. Nobody wants to be a 'banker' without getting rich through it.

Maybe we can have another three-letter-acronymn: PoP  - Proof of Person??

Pentamon

Great post Pentamon, thanks! You raise some very interesting points. 'One stake per Human' is my goal for Kora, and I think for many people interested in seeing crypto currencies thrive and do good in the world, it is the high water mark for coin distribution. For me 'One stake per Human' *should* mean that I can register a stake for my children, and my elderly parents, and other 'dependants'. Please note that I said *should*, because I know setting up a system where people could register a stake on behalf of another person would be a red rag to a bull as far as sockpuppeters is concerned, so preventing abuse by multi-account scammers would become a major effort. I think it is possible to setup such a system, but very difficult without requiring people to upload identity documents. I believe eventually someone will propose a coin with 100% POS free distribution, and they will try to airdrop to a particular community based on 'One stake per Human' using some form of identity checking.

Many financial institutions are required already to collect identity documents for AML & KYC purposes, so I think eventually a big player will try and bootstrap a coin on a mass scale using existing document collecting & verification procedures. Many people in the crypto community NOW obviously value their privacy, so many would be against a coin that asked for identity documents, but I think it is almost inevitable somebody will do this, and they'll probably be very successful - 'free money if you upload 2 identity documents and install an app on your phone' - It is inevitable.

As for your suggestions regarding the problems with distributing all the coins at the beginning, I like the idea of issuing larger amounts to people who acts as 'redistribution agents', and then those people distribute to new people etc etc It has a lot of appeal.

I think the problem is 'trust' - how can you force the people to distribute and not hoard? It's the 'tragedy of the commons' (similar to game theory), and everyone has a strong incentive to NOT distribute to the next level, and hope everyone else does so the coin survives but they have more coins.

Many would argue that the best means of distribution is selling for profit by the first batch of stakeholders, and then as the price slowly goes up, new entrants sell/distribute to the next wave of users, and then the price goes up a little more so they sell to the next wave etc etc. I can see problems with both approaches, (i.e. distribute via selling for profit vs trusting the 'distribution bankers' to honestly distribute and not cheat), but the goal of saving coins for later distribution is very worthwhile.

I am a big believer in the potential of DACs (distributed autonomous corporations), which in my mind are software that has been programmed to perform all the functions of a business. Many businesses, especially ones involving money *could* be programmed into software without the need for human intervention. The functions of Banking, insurance, stock issuing, bond issuing etc could be fully automated one day, and eventually I think DACs will revolutionise many industries, in the same way the internet already has.

I believe in the not too distant future it would be possible to program a 'coin distribution DAC' that was capable of distributing coins over a long period of time using identity checking in some automated secure way, that would allow coins to be distributed slowly, so later generations of people could still get a fair share.

Instead of having people act in the role of 'redistribution bankers' as you called them, the DAC could be programmed to perform that function. If the DAC was programmed 'correctly' the coin distribution could happen over years, and it would not require 'trusting' anybody, and everything would be transparent on the coin's blockchain.

I think a DAC distributed 100% POS coin is the long term answer for crypto currencies - POW is flawed, but 100% POS coins have the 'how do we distribute fairly' problem. NXT & Qora had very poor distributions, NEM was better but still not very wide, and it doesn't allow for any distribution to late comers.

The long term fair distribution is obviously to use your suggestion and NOT distribute all the coins to the first wave of users so you can keep coins for later users, but who can we trust to safe keep the coins and honestly perform the 'One stake per Human' check? Answer, a distribution DAC!

Crypto is evolving. Bitcoin was like the first early human ancestor who climbed down from the trees in Africa. NXT is like the first human ancestor to use a stone tool. Qora, NEM & Kora can all make evolutionary progress, but if we're honest they're still basically hairy man-monkey creatures walking around - they're like homo erectus & neanderthals, and not the equivalent of a modern human. A 100% POS coin distributed by a DAC using identity checking would be very close to a 'fully evolved crypto' IMO

Kora,
thank you for your extensive reply. I have the feeling we should sit down with a nice bottle of wine, and discuss this... 
hopefully some of our good ideas fall on fertile ground.

Here is another lateral thinking, outlandish, challenging idea: Would it be possible to give each and every individual their own set of 'colored coins' - basically an asset on the asset exchange, that can gain value on the Asset Exchange, depending on that individual's economic activity, and worth? Could there be a way to relate their real life assets, reflecting them on the Asset Exchange?  I realize the overhead seems tremendous, but just go with the idea for a moment that the person has to nurture their own 'stock' in the same way as any concerned whale would?

You can probably tell that I am not limited by a formal education in economics. 

Pentamon

[Buratino]

Old model of IPO is expired today. Now it must be auctions. For example, look at bitshares-AGS. We can make distribution like this.
It can bring signinficant amount of money to stablization fund. Also it denies early dumps (there is no very much ROI).

[bc_wwang]

Good idea! How can we join?

[boopy265420]

another but this Kora count me in for some one these fantastic coins.

[amiryaqot]

it looks amazing, i am in for free distribution

[Kora]

Kora,
thank you for your extensive reply. I have the feeling we should sit down with a nice bottle of wine, and discuss this...  
hopefully some of our good ideas fall on fertile ground.

Here is another lateral thinking, outlandish, challenging idea: Would it be possible to give each and every individual their own set of 'colored coins' - basically an asset on the asset exchange, that can gain value on the Asset Exchange, depending on that individual's economic activity, and worth? Could there be a way to relate their real life assets, reflecting them on the Asset Exchange?  I realize the overhead seems tremendous, but just go with the idea for a moment that the person has to nurture their own 'stock' in the same way as any concerned whale would?

You can probably tell that I am not limited by a formal education in economics.  

Pentamon

Yes, a nice bottle of wine and some good interesting conversation would be nice!

There are a lot of crazy people on this forum, but there are plenty of good people thinking of new ways to do things as well. I think as time goes on more people hear about bitcoin and crypto currencies generally, and many of the newer people who come to this forum have interesting ideas and perspectives to offer. Sometimes the older members are too set in their thinking maybe, and that's why I think the old guard dismiss new things, like NXT, NEM & Qora.

I like the idea of individual colored coins, and it made me think of a post I saw a while back where someone was suggesting an idea to create a NXT asset out of the 'potential' shown by a human being. Sounds weird, but most people successful in business understand that success really comes down to 'selling' the seller & their ideas, so assetizing talented people seems a natural extension.

Distributed decentralised solutions are so huge! I'm still expanding my mind over the potential of DAC's.


edit: I think having an interest in economics without any formal education can offer a lot of benefits. You have an open mind. Experts can easily miss the next big thing.

[KickAzzDude]

So just posting here gets us included?

[Kora]

So just posting here gets us included?

No, this is a brainstorming thread to discuss ideas. Read the opening post occasionally for updates as it explains what's happening with Kora. We will open up registrations at the end of this month hopefully, and you will register using a webapp system that's currently under construction. If you have any ideas you think are beneficial for bootstrapping a new POS crypto coin feel free to express them here

[Kora]

Old model of IPO is expired today. Now it must be auctions. For example, look at bitshares-AGS. We can make distribution like this.
It can bring signinficant amount of money to stablization fund. Also it denies early dumps (there is no very much ROI).

I agree that the old model of IPO's has expired, but I'm not sure about auctions as a replacement though. I think any time a start-up needs funding it is better to acquire them from the founders in some way. Once you start taking money from strangers there are problems ..... TRUST & SCAMS!!

If the developers have some 'trust', or they use escrow, then raising money from strangers *might* be ok, but speaking for myself, I prefer to use developer stakes to pay for things, and pay for any immediate expenses out of my own pocket. That way I'm covered in case the SEC or some other financial regulator wants to bang down my door because I'm illegally issuing shares without the legal authority to do so. It also means people can call me a fool, and an idiot, but it's pretty hard to accuse Kora of being a scam when we aren't taking any funds from our stakeholders.

I suppose a cynic could argue that Kora *might* be a pump & dump, but I plan to have a trusted third party issue the Kora tokens on the NXT AE anyway, so .... fool I might be, but scammer I certainly am not!!