[ANN] ORA :: NXT 'monetary system' currency

[MsCollec]

Kora, good luck on your project

[TwinWinNerD]

Don't do funding from people that want a share. This always gets messy and has a ugly after-taste.

How about "pledges" of the funds received (% of Kora stake) and plain donations?

[Kora]

Don't do funding from people that want a share. This always gets messy and has a ugly after-taste.

How about "pledges" of the funds received (% of Kora stake) and plain donations?

Donations are fine with me! What I want to avoid is taking funds off people to pay for development costs. If you are starting a real world business then start-up costs can be high, but starting a crypto coin has very few real world costs, so IMO the best way to fund development is to offer the people doing the work a development share. It's just like a stock option, and as many believe bootstrapping a POS coin is very similar to a startup company, to me it makes sense to borrow from successful start-ups. How did Microsoft, and Apple, and Google, and FaceBook etc motivate & reward their early employees? They give them stock options.

I'm not sure about pledges though. I know utopian was very careful with his 'call to participate' wording, but I'm not certain regulators wont class the NEM fundraising as an illegal security sale, and UP might end up in hot water like Erik Voorhees.

I think I can bootstrap Kora using my own funds to a point where it looks promising enough that a 1% 'power bounty' starts to look like a decent amount of money. Once a few people commit, it becomes a snowball, and then donations become a useful additional source of funds too.

It's an interesting question. Given that Kora will start off as just an 'idea', and it'll first exist as a token on the NXT AE, how much money will it cost to bootstrap? My guess is practically nothing. Once we have the list of stakeholder names, the rest is 'pure potential', and IMO Kora will have value, but no costs. Look at NEM, it has value from its obvious potential, but they have real costs as NEM has moved away from being a straight clone of NXT, but UP probably could have assembled his team without the need to collect the bitcoin 'call to participate' amounts

I'm paying for the registration webapp costs out of my own pocket, and the dev (MacRed) will get a 5% share which is fair as he is the first to contribute his time when really nothing exists yet, so he is taking the biggest risk with his time.

I have no guarantee that Mac Red will stick around, and I wont pressure him to at all, but if he looks at the top 20 positions on coinmarketcap, and picks a spot where Kora *might* be in 6 months, and then he calculates 5% of that marketcap, then my guess is he will instantly feel some motivation to contribute in some further way to Kora, even if just as a regular on the forum.

He'd probably see it as rational self-interest to even consider giving away some of his Kora coins to help the cause if it meant his remaining stake actually increased in value.

That's the lesson from NXT. BCNext created about 8 people who had 5% stakes in NXT, and those people became super motivated to make NXT succeed. Other stakeholders were motivated too, and that bootstrapped NXT to its current successful position.

BCNext took money though, so it's good he disappeared as I bet one day the SEC would like to have a chat with him.

[Pentamon]

Don't do funding from people that want a share. This always gets messy and has a ugly after-taste.

How about "pledges" of the funds received (% of Kora stake) and plain donations?

So true what you say about IPOs - they seem to be messy and  have an ugly after-taste.

It still makes me wonder: how do we get a system of distribution, where the initial crowds are not necessarily getting all the benefits of the money starting?

Some more brainstorming:

Every human  -  One stake  -  One time  -  Any time.

I would like to see a system where my children would get their stake when they get old enough.
I would like to see a mechanism whereby every new account that is created for a person, comes with it's full stake of coins for that unique, adult, human being.

The mechanism to create a new account for a human, relies on a process that is initiated by lets say two or three mature accounts, Let's call them 'bankers'.
They have to verify that this is a live, unique human, with no other or no previous accounts.
This process of generating a new account, is where the forging or 'mining occurs and new coins are created.
The initiating accounts (bankers) get a reasonable fee for starting up the new account, but the majority of the newly forged money is residing in the new account.
(There is nothing preventing the new account holder enticing the bankers with some payments outside of the currency for the startup).
I think that any account should only be allowed to be a banker a certain amount of times. How about once for every finger(print) - ten times?

The process for a new account to mature into a 'procreating banker' can be linked to certain economic activity - some proof of work or proof of stake, or proof of participation in the economy.

The main arguments for such a system would be:
The creation of money is not only favoring the initial group that get exposed to it early on, because it is created as people enter the currency.
The ratio of coins to humans stays the same, even generations from now.

The main argument against such a system is that nobody here in cryptoland likes the idea of uniquely identifying a human.
(And that would be an important part in any system that wants to give each human one, and only one stake.)
And, let's not forget our greed: many are wondering at how can I leverage things in my favor?

Nevertheless, I wonder, is it possible to incorporate something like this into the block-chain algorithm of a crypto currency?

Pentamon

[Pentamon]

OH, and if it is not a human, but a business, or a legal entity, that is when we go to the Asset Exchange...

or maybe I am not thinking straight. What if a business does not want to be traded?  Some form of business account will be needed.
 Mabye a business account is an account that starts without any funds inside it?

[Mac Red]

Don't do funding from people that want a share. This always gets messy and has a ugly after-taste.

How about "pledges" of the funds received (% of Kora stake) and plain donations?

Donations are fine with me! What I want to avoid is taking funds off people to pay for development costs. If you are starting a real world business then start-up costs can be high, but starting a crypto coin has very few real world costs, so IMO the best way to fund development is to offer the people doing the work a development share. It's just like a stock option, and as many believe bootstrapping a POS coin is very similar to a startup company, to me it makes sense to borrow from successful start-ups. How did Microsoft, and Apple, and Google, and FaceBook etc motivate & reward their early employees? They give them stock options.

I'm not sure about pledges though. I know utopian was very careful with his 'call to participate' wording, but I'm not certain regulators wont class the NEM fundraising as an illegal security sale, and UP might end up in hot water like Erik Voorhees.

I think I can bootstrap Kora using my own funds to a point where it looks promising enough that a 1% 'power bounty' starts to look like a decent amount of money. Once a few people commit, it becomes a snowball, and then donations become a useful additional source of funds too.

It's an interesting question. Given that Kora will start off as just an 'idea', and it'll first exist as a token on the NXT AE, how much money will it cost to bootstrap? My guess is practically nothing. Once we have the list of stakeholder names, the rest is 'pure potential', and IMO Kora will have value, but no costs. Look at NEM, it has value from its obvious potential, but they have real costs as NEM has moved away from being a straight clone of NXT, but UP probably could have assembled his team without the need to collect the bitcoin 'call to participate' amounts

I'm paying for the registration webapp costs out of my own pocket, and the dev (MacRed) will get a 5% share which is fair as he is the first to contribute his time when really nothing exists yet, so he is taking the biggest risk with his time.

I have no guarantee that Mac Red will stick around, and I wont pressure him to at all, but if he looks at the top 20 positions on coinmarketcap, and picks a spot where Kora *might* be in 6 months, and then he calculates 5% of that marketcap, then my guess is he will instantly feel some motivation to contribute in some further way to Kora, even if just as a regular on the forum.

He'd probably see it as rational self-interest to even consider giving away some of his Kora coins to help the cause if it meant his remaining stake actually increased in value.

That's the lesson from NXT. BCNext created about 8 people who had 5% stakes in NXT, and those people became super motivated to make NXT succeed. Other stakeholders were motivated too, and that bootstrapped NXT to its current successful position.

BCNext took money though, so it's good he disappeared as I bet one day the SEC would like to have a chat with him.

Peeking in to confirm application is on schedule. 
Wherever Kora might be months from now only time will tell. I'm confident in this project and will stick around as it grows.

[ZeroTheGreat]

Every human  -  One stake  -  One time  -  Any time

It' just a limited at time solution to unequality of managing capital.

I suppose, humanity can and should eliminate unequality of base capital, for that purpose egalitarian cryptocoins — almost perfect option. PoS-systems meanwhile solving issue of too high capital. But unequality of managing capital'll stay and we need to deal with it.

World with money can't be perfect. (c) And money represents relative nature of value — there'll always be economics behind anything.

[Kora]

Peeking in to confirm application is on schedule.  
Wherever Kora might be months from now only time will tell. I'm confident in this project and will stick around as it grows.

Thanks Mac Red, I appreciate your comment & your confidence in Kora!!

I would like to open up a discussion on what Kora can learn from the recent unfortunate events surrounding NEM. I am a NEM stakeholder, and have recently bought an extra stake on the NXT AE, and like many other NEM stakeholders, I was both shocked & saddened to hear of the recent controversy surrounding utopianfuture.

I believe UP is a good man, and he has paid a heavy price for his actions, but his resignation was appropriate to ensure NEM could continue.

Are there any lessons for Kora from this unfortunate episode?

We will have the registration webapp to prevent sockpuppets for the mass distribution to ~3k users, but what about the dev team?

How can we prevent any 'perception' that Kora distribution was unfair or 'rigged' in any way to the benefit of the dev team?

This is a real problem for any coin that is given away free. The 'value' comes from the potential, and the potential is built on the community, and the foundation of the community is 'trust'. If trust is broken, the value will evaporate.

What can I do to prove that I only registered one Kora Stake? Obviously this user account 'Kora' was created to start the Kora coin, and you can all assume I have at least one other account. I can promise I will only register for one stake, but I'm an 'insider', and in theory I could do what utopianfuture did.

Any ideas?

[Kora]

Don't do funding from people that want a share. This always gets messy and has a ugly after-taste.

How about "pledges" of the funds received (% of Kora stake) and plain donations?

So true what you say about IPOs - they seem to be messy and  have an ugly after-taste.

It still makes me wonder: how do we get a system of distribution, where the initial crowds are not necessarily getting all the benefits of the money starting?

Some more brainstorming:

Every human  -  One stake  -  One time  -  Any time.

I would like to see a system where my children would get their stake when they get old enough.
I would like to see a mechanism whereby every new account that is created for a person, comes with it's full stake of coins for that unique, adult, human being.

The mechanism to create a new account for a human, relies on a process that is initiated by lets say two or three mature accounts, Let's call them 'bankers'.
They have to verify that this is a live, unique human, with no other or no previous accounts.
This process of generating a new account, is where the forging or 'mining occurs and new coins are created.
The initiating accounts (bankers) get a reasonable fee for starting up the new account, but the majority of the newly forged money is residing in the new account.
(There is nothing preventing the new account holder enticing the bankers with some payments outside of the currency for the startup).
I think that any account should only be allowed to be a banker a certain amount of times. How about once for every finger(print) - ten times?

The process for a new account to mature into a 'procreating banker' can be linked to certain economic activity - some proof of work or proof of stake, or proof of participation in the economy.

The main arguments for such a system would be:
The creation of money is not only favoring the initial group that get exposed to it early on, because it is created as people enter the currency.
The ratio of coins to humans stays the same, even generations from now.

The main argument against such a system is that nobody here in cryptoland likes the idea of uniquely identifying a human.
(And that would be an important part in any system that wants to give each human one, and only one stake.)
And, let's not forget our greed: many are wondering at how can I leverage things in my favor?

Nevertheless, I wonder, is it possible to incorporate something like this into the block-chain algorithm of a crypto currency?

Pentamon

I can think of two potential options that might address this Pentamon.

1- Automated distribution using a DAC (distributed automated corporation)
2- Identity escrow services & trust accounts

Both options could potentially keep distributing coins into the future on the basis of identity verification using the principal of 'one human one stake' which is the ultimate solution for a POS crypto coin.

The infrastructure already exists for the second option (sort of), but I much prefer the first option.

I really believe a distribution DAC could be created that is able to verify a new 'human' identity, distribute coins to a new account, while keeping the users identity secret, and upholding the integrity of the coin supply (i.e. coins can't be hacked, and only get created/distributed after a valid NEW application from a newborn 'human').

Once released into the wild, the distribution DAC would exist on the internet as a P2P application for as long as people were running the software, and if the coin was 'trusted' and used, it could last for ever in theory. 100% decentralised global currency distributed using mathematically verifiable fair principles - 'one stake for one human'.

It really is an inspiring idea, and IMO  possible quite soon. Maybe this coin could be launched on top NXT, who knows, but I think that is theoretically possible!

I believe this will happen (distribution DAC's) with the same degree of certainty for my belief that humans will one day walk on Mars. For both of those beliefs I'm unsure of 'when', but I'm certain both will happen.

[Pentamon]

{content snipped}

I can think of two potential options that might address this Pentamon.

1- Automated distribution using a DAC (distributed automated corporation)
2- Identity escrow services & trust accounts

Both options could potentially keep distributing coins into the future on the basis of identity verification using the principal of 'one human one stake' which is the ultimate solution for a POS crypto coin.

The infrastructure already exists for the second option (sort of), but I much prefer the first option.

I really believe a distribution DAC could be created that is able to verify a new 'human' identity, distribute coins to a new account, while keeping the users identity secret, and upholding the integrity of the coin supply (i.e. coins can't be hacked, and only get created/distributed after a valid NEW application from a newborn 'human').

Once released into the wild, the distribution DAC would exist on the internet as a P2P application for as long as people were running the software, and if the coin was 'trusted' and used, it could last for ever in theory. 100% decentralised global currency distributed using mathematically verifiable fair principles - 'one stake for one human'.

It really is an inspiring idea, and IMO  possible quite soon. Maybe this coin could be launched on top NXT, who knows, but I think that is theoretically possible!

I believe this will happen (distribution DAC's) with the same degree of certainty for my belief that humans will one day walk on Mars. For both of those beliefs I'm unsure of 'when', but I'm certain both will happen.

So, is there any way that we can work towards the Distributed Automated Corporations?
What would it entail?
Practical steps are.... ?

I would like to understand it better, since a lot of people are concerned about their privacy, yet we are daily recorded on video, you can not cross a border without biometrics and the savvy stores know if your daughter is pregnant before you know it, based upon the shopping behaviors.

PS:
I started a thread just to give the Proof of Person concept a little more publicity:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=650482.msg7284313#msg7284313

[eeee12344]

qora clone,another fair coin？

[kipo]

Join Kora and make a difference!
xilige and the logo is butity

[testadimerlo]

glad to see this thread to become more and more interesting

[snaildvorak]

Interested. I'll keep watching this thread!

[dadingsda]

any news?

[sumone]

Will registration for the distribution take place after qora releases it's source code, or before?

[Mac Red]

Will registration for the distribution take place after qora releases it's source code, or before?

Been working on the reg app for some time now and it should be finished soon.
Currently doing some testing and minor tweaks. I've contacted Kora to discuss more details. You can probably expect an update shortly!

[lhuibin]

This is great, How can I join in.
I want some coins.

[Kora]

Will registration for the distribution take place after qora releases it's source code, or before?

No, we don't need to wait for the Qora source code to be released before launching Kora.

The registration period will open soon, and once we have the list of stakeholder names & NXT addresses, we will issue Kora tokens on the NXT AE.

Kora will be launched, and traded, well before the Qora source code is released.

I've seen the progress Mac Red has made on the registration webapp, and I'm happy to report it is excellent!!

Stay tuned for more news soon!

[Kora]

So, is there any way that we can work towards the Distributed Automated Corporations?
What would it entail?
Practical steps are.... ?

I would like to understand it better, since a lot of people are concerned about their privacy, yet we are daily recorded on video, you can not cross a border without biometrics and the savvy stores know if your daughter is pregnant before you know it, based upon the shopping behaviors.

PS:
I started a thread just to give the Proof of Person concept a little more publicity:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=650482.msg7284313#msg7284313

I think we're at very early stages with DAC development, but IMO progress will be made over the next 3-5 years.

Some good information here: http://coinwiki.info/en/Decentralized_autonomous_corporation

The penny dropped for me after I read this post from Adam B Levine on the bitshares site.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=1854.0

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/2014/01/computer-corporations
http://newswax.com/2014/01/implications-crypto-assets-part-3-distributed-autonomous-corporations/

Many second generation crypto platforms like NXT & Etherium & Bitshares & Noirshares (and others) are working on DAC's right now. Their potential to disrupt many industries (and the internet generally) in enormous, BUT, we will need to wait a little longer before we see them in action.