AlexGR
Legendary
 Offline
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
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June 03, 2014, 05:47:01 PM |
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Teka, can you just delete anything Chaeplin has to say. He can PM atcsecure if he wishes to actually prove his claims but I don't think there is any reason to allow him to continue to toss FUD grenades around the thread.
No, delete nothing! Just remind Cheaplin about this post he made today: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=630547.msg7109580#msg7109580 (help Dev.) For now it looks to me he just scanned a couple of next blocks & combined some deposits till they added up to the original sum - 2x fee on the same address. But (just for now) there could be a link we are missing, learn first & talk. We all have our own way, lets respect each other When there is a process, no matter what it is, it can the be scripted. When it's scripted you can have a block explorer that takes the obfuscated transactions, processes them with a script and then makes them ...transparent with probabilities like 50-100% this went from A to B. When this happens, coin is DOA. But it will also be DOA if it's based on trusting the nodes to not steal. Btw if multiple mixing occurs, with transactions splitting 5-10 times all over the place it will also be DOA due to scaling issues. You don't want half a megabyte transactions for moving around 1 XC. Not only would this be problematic but it can also be an attack vector against the blockchain itself (bloating it to FUBAR levels) in which someone will pay something like 1 btc in transaction fees and make the blockchain unusable in terms of size. |
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greyskies
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June 03, 2014, 05:47:04 PM |
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Remember at all times to compare the methodology of our approach with DRK.
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JakeThePanda
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June 03, 2014, 05:47:26 PM |
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It's al-right mate, you did a good job. Loads of people here are a bit too quick. He did a good job about what? Seem you don't get what the test is about... Show me that the transaction can be traced to an address, don't lookup to the address in a blockchain with few transactions, and guess the transaction based on the transferred amount and on the time. That's just stupid... He did no job...just some stupid FUD Its no point in being able to guess an address when there are so few transactions, if you're not able to do so when the blockchain will contain lots of transactions...which will make tracing impossible. Well, if a person can guess right with a few transactions, I'm sure a good programmer can figure out how to correctly guess on a lot of transactions. Yes? |
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qawzsx
Sr. Member
Offline
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
NOT FUD! FACTS!
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June 03, 2014, 05:47:53 PM |
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In response to what you posted, How can you tell? What method did you use to determine your end result? Post this so the community can see and verify its repeatability. He used no method, he just looked for an address sending that amount in the blockexplorer... Basically he guessed it since there are few transactions, and he know the aprox. time when the transaction took place... Its pointless |
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Reese212
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June 03, 2014, 05:48:01 PM |
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thank you for posting this. i thought all the time that english is not easy for you because you post not many words, that sounds rude, but it is totally okay for somebody learning the language! so to me it Looks like this is where we are: - at current Version (0.9.1.35) it is possible to trace Transactions with having a Close look into blockexplorer. BUT this only works because of very very few Transactions that occur at present day. no matter, it is not truly anonymous, but it will be harder to trace if there are more Transactions. - at Version 0.9.1.37 this Kind of "searching the blockchain for a known amount of XC" won't work any longer as atcsecure said. plz tell me if i'm right, thank you! |
Dear Lord, please grant me the ability...
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getmining.info
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June 03, 2014, 05:49:26 PM |
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It's al-right mate, you did a good job. Loads of people here are a bit too quick. He did a good job about what? Seem you don't get what the test is about... Show me that the transaction can be traced to an address, don't lookup to the address in a blockchain with few transactions, and guess the transaction based on the transferred amount and on the time. That's just stupid... He did no job...just some stupid FUD Its no point in being able to guess an address when there are so few transactions, if you're not able to do so when the blockchain will contain lots of transactions...which will make tracing impossible. Its like saying ... "yo test this car for me...it does not have all the wheels now, but it will have them..." And the tester say ... "well, the car will not move...the idea of a car its flawed..." I know exactly what the test is about. I didn't hear anyone else standing up and giving any answers. He managed it with guess work possible due to several factors. Regardless, you are just slating him and now me and he has said there was no 'direct link' Jeez, have a bit of 'community spirit'  |
All views are my own, except those that I have subconsciously inherited from my parents and those that I have nicked from far cleverer people.
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JakeThePanda
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June 03, 2014, 05:50:27 PM |
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In response to what you posted, How can you tell? What method did you use to determine your end result? Post this so the community can see and verify its repeatability. He used no method, he just looked for an address sending that amount in the blockexplorer... Basically he guessed it since there are few transactions, and he know the aprox. time when the transaction took place... Its pointless Looking for transactions that sum to the amount you are looking for is a method. |
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qawzsx
Sr. Member
Offline
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
NOT FUD! FACTS!
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June 03, 2014, 05:50:51 PM |
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It's al-right mate, you did a good job. Loads of people here are a bit too quick. He did a good job about what? Seem you don't get what the test is about... Show me that the transaction can be traced to an address, don't lookup to the address in a blockchain with few transactions, and guess the transaction based on the transferred amount and on the time. That's just stupid... He did no job...just some stupid FUD Its no point in being able to guess an address when there are so few transactions, if you're not able to do so when the blockchain will contain lots of transactions...which will make tracing impossible. Well, if a person can guess right with a few transactions, I'm sure a good programmer can figure out how to correctly guess on a lot of transactions. Yes? No, he cannot figure out...at some point it impossible to figure out. Its like the strength of a password. At some point it becomes impossible to find it. Well, impossible in a life time. |
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qawzsx
Sr. Member
Offline
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
NOT FUD! FACTS!
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June 03, 2014, 05:52:45 PM |
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In response to what you posted, How can you tell? What method did you use to determine your end result? Post this so the community can see and verify its repeatability. He used no method, he just looked for an address sending that amount in the blockexplorer... Basically he guessed it since there are few transactions, and he know the aprox. time when the transaction took place... Its pointless Looking for transactions that sum to the amount you are looking for is a method. Its not a method, because at some point its useless. |
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JakeThePanda
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June 03, 2014, 05:53:59 PM |
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It's al-right mate, you did a good job. Loads of people here are a bit too quick. He did a good job about what? Seem you don't get what the test is about... Show me that the transaction can be traced to an address, don't lookup to the address in a blockchain with few transactions, and guess the transaction based on the transferred amount and on the time. That's just stupid... He did no job...just some stupid FUD Its no point in being able to guess an address when there are so few transactions, if you're not able to do so when the blockchain will contain lots of transactions...which will make tracing impossible. Well, if a person can guess right with a few transactions, I'm sure a good programmer can figure out how to correctly guess on a lot of transactions. Yes? No, he cannot figure out...at some point it impossible to figure out. Its like the strength of a password. At some point it becomes impossible to find it. Well, impossible in a life time. But wouldn't it be possible with only 2 splits? If splitting the transaction 5-10 times is problematic then the possible combinations won't be that large, at least for a computer. |
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getmining.info
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June 03, 2014, 05:54:19 PM |
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Stop hating  Oh my...
I realized that the meaning of direct link.
Hell there is no direct link in block chain.
So I stopped conversation.
I do appreciate your feedback and value the input and time you put into this.. it is valuable information to have.. and good to know that technically the block chain provides no direct link... yet pattern recognition protection needs additional coding... Truth is, challenge was to give the address. Which he did and did not even make claim to a bounty he deserved. Now move on and do something else while waiting for 1.37  |
All views are my own, except those that I have subconsciously inherited from my parents and those that I have nicked from far cleverer people.
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guanchayuan
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June 03, 2014, 05:55:10 PM |
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please
DRK
open source
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Mxrider420z
Sr. Member
Offline
Activity: 619
Merit: 289
Ⓚ KORE TEAM Ⓚ ★ Portuguese/SPA
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June 03, 2014, 05:56:03 PM |
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Xnodes here are running and im seeying the transactions going thru, pretty cool how it works
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Grifftech
Newbie
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Activity: 56
Merit: 0
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June 03, 2014, 05:57:03 PM |
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If all you Monday Morning Quarterbacks know so much about how to break coins or crack them and so on as you are posting. Why don't you make your own coin then that defeats this? I am sure you would make a lot more than spending your time on here saying you know what the problem is.
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saberu
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June 03, 2014, 05:57:10 PM
Last edit: June 03, 2014, 06:21:25 PM by saberu |
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Even though I just made a post I wanted to start a new one on a different topic.
I know enough about politics and economics to confidently claim we are being shafted by our governments and leaders and anyone paying 30-50% tax while also having to pay for the right to build on a piece of land is effectively being enslaved by the ruling classes.
We are all slaves of the system but there is a way out. In high levels of politics and business there is currently a war being waged between the public and private sector. Most governments around the world tax rich companies and individuals differently from normal people, agreements are made in private over meals or on luxury yachts. The agreements usually involve a lot of `red packets` as they say in China, or `brown envelopes` as they say in the UK.
The war is currently being won by the private sector due to the currency and residency freedoms brought about via globalization however due to the centralized nature of common currencies it is possible to trace and track down the destination of capital that governments are trying to tax or confiscate.
As a normal person there is no way to receive a fair share of economic production and this has been the case throughout history. There was a brief thirty year period between 1950 and 1980 whereby due to the after effects of World War Two Western governments had to put taxes up very high for the richest people. At the same time there was a massive boom in added value production during a period where oil was still cheap and there was not much automation.
This meant that manual labour was paid very well due to the lack of automation and cheap oil at the same time helped cause very fast growth in production. So with the rich getting poorer and manual labour being rewarded better the capital VS labour calculation started to balance more in favour of labour.
However in the last two decades due to automation and outsourcing and the freedoms brought about via globalisation, as well as new technologies making the quality of life better in many countries there were two major consequences. One being that manual labour stopped being a rewarding skill and the second being that as a person with capital (ie rich) it was much easier to move to a tax free country or keep your finances obfuscated overseas from your resident country`s government.
Governments can no longer effectively tax rich people or large companies so have to put up taxes for normal people through a mixture of normal income taxes and hidden secondary taxes such as VAT and monetary inflation which is in fact just a clever way to tax people.
Due to the nature of how our economic system works the more competitive it gets for labour (automation and outsourcing) the more power capital has versus labour and this trend will continue and intensify in the coming decades.
The only way to escape the capital VS labour rat race is to usurp the economic system by holding shares in an anonymous currency like XC because then you become an economic asset to anyone looking to transfer funds away from the eyes of governments. And I can tell you in China alone there are hundreds of billions of dollars held by the richest middle class in the world, I am talking more than fifty or a hundred times bigger than the US middle class.
Many of these people would like to be able to transfer either a fraction or all of their wealth outside of China in order to protect themselves from higher taxes or inflation in future, both of which are an inevitability in the global race for `growth` which will cause a worldwide depression bigger than any in history.
When this worldwide depression hits there will be a massive wall of money trying to come out of China that cannot be sent through traditional currency transfers. And guess how it will be sent? That`s right, XC!
And if you are wondering who will be there to facilitate the transactions coming out of China, well that is the beauty of capitalism. As long as there is a significant demand for capital to be sent and safely stored overseas then there will a competitive market to provide this service in future.
Maybe it should be possible to also delete a log of the receiver address from the wallet of the sender? In case of government confiscation of said wallet. This would cause more people to use XC to send large sums of money anonymously which is the ultimate goal of the coin with the added benefit to early XC supporters/adopters of adding buy pressure to the price.
Owning XC is like a way of taxing the rich when the inevitable capital flight takes place after the also inevitable coming worldwide economic depression. Economic systems work in cycles but currently governments around the world are using inflation and taxes to keep an over twenty year trade and commodities bubble from popping.
When the depression comes governments will get so desperate that they will try to confiscate or tax as much wealth as they can since the high level of unemployment will make taxing labour ineffective then add the cost of social security soaring due to unemployment of over 50% and this is why capital will naturally flow into or through XC as a safe haven from governments.
My economic prediction is shared by many people across the world. This is simply the power of compounding inflation. The system will keep growing until governments have no option than to confiscate wealth and eventually tax the country to death until some kind of social revolution.
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greyskies
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June 03, 2014, 05:59:14 PM |
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In response to what you posted, How can you tell? What method did you use to determine your end result? Post this so the community can see and verify its repeatability. He used no method, he just looked for an address sending that amount in the blockexplorer... Basically he guessed it since there are few transactions, and he know the aprox. time when the transaction took place... Its pointless Looking for transactions that sum to the amount you are looking for is a method. But if there is no links in the inputs/outputs it can't be proven. Especially when there are lots of transactions. It's al-right mate, you did a good job. Loads of people here are a bit too quick. He did a good job about what? Seem you don't get what the test is about... Show me that the transaction can be traced to an address, don't lookup to the address in a blockchain with few transactions, and guess the transaction based on the transferred amount and on the time. That's just stupid... He did no job...just some stupid FUD Its no point in being able to guess an address when there are so few transactions, if you're not able to do so when the blockchain will contain lots of transactions...which will make tracing impossible. Well, if a person can guess right with a few transactions, I'm sure a good programmer can figure out how to correctly guess on a lot of transactions. Yes? Not if the method has exponential difficulty. 4! (factorial) is small (combinations) 120! is enormous etc. DRK uses mixing too anyway. |
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kieco
Member
Offline
Activity: 76
Merit: 10
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June 03, 2014, 05:59:29 PM |
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I already tried that, and the results was me missing 47 XC. I guess i could rebuild it but last time it took me around 30 restarts and over 30 mins to rebuild ... sucks. |
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G-Bert
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June 03, 2014, 06:00:02 PM |
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Hi,
I've been lurking in this thread since just before the peak when i bought about 500 XC. I have high hopes for this coin and have been constantly refreshing both this thread, the uncensorred thread all day and night and following constantly.
May I suggest that after the next release there is a bounty for finding the sending address and showing a link between sending and receiving adresses. Maybe send out a few other transactions for the same amount to other addresses at the same time to make guesswork harder.
This test was just "find the sending address". As it stands I think chaeplin deserves the bountry.
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XChat XJkVnYD4N4oSjNStgbAUD6UyWuBTWuMRgv
public key fuYPYmK4Sj57PkU2NKg1gKW91euMKkstQPeeexUcxnb8
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Grifftech
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
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June 03, 2014, 06:00:22 PM |
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Even though I just made a post I wanted to start a new one on a different topic.
I know enough about politics and economics to confidently claim we are being shafted by our governments and leaders and anyone paying 30-50% tax while also having to pay for the right to build on a piece of land is effectively being enslaved by the ruling classes.
We are all slaves of the system but there is a way out. In high levels of politics and business there is currently a war being waged between the public and private sector. Most governments around the world tax rich companies and individuals differently from normal people, agreements are made in private over meals or on luxury yachts. The agreements usually involve a lot of `red packets` as they say in China, or `brown envelopes` as they say in the UK.
The war is currently being won by the private sector due to the currency and residency freedoms brought about via globalization however due to the centralized nature of common currencies it is possible to trace and track down the destination of capital that governments are trying to tax or confiscate.
As a normal person there is no way to receive a fair share of economic production and this has been the case throughout history. There was a brief thirty year period between 1950 and 1980 whereby due to the after effects of World War Two Western governments had to put taxes up very high for the richest people. At the same time there was a massive boom in added value production during a period where oil was still cheap and there was not much automation.
This meant that manual labour was paid very well due to the lack of automation and cheap oil at the same time helped cause very fast growth in production. So with the rich getting poorer and manual labour being rewarded better the capital VS labour calculation started to balance more in favour of labour.
However in the last two decades due to automation and outsourcing and the freedoms brought about via globalisation, as well as new technologies making the quality of life better in many countries there were two major consequences. One being that manual labour stopped being a rewarding skill and the second being that as a person with capital (ie rich) it was much easier to move to a tax free country or keep your finances obfuscated overseas from your resident country`s government.
Governments can no longer effectively tax rich people or large companies so have to put up taxes for normal people through a mixture of normal income taxes and hidden secondary taxes such as VAT and monetary inflation which is in fact just a clever way to tax people.
Due to the nature of how our economic system works the more competitive it gets for labour (automation and outsourcing) the more power capital has versus labour and this trend will continue and intensify in the coming decades.
The only way to escape the capital VS labour rat race is to usurp the economic system by holding shares in an anonymous currency like XC because then you become an economic asset to anyone looking to transfer funds away from the eyes of governments. And I can tell you in China alone there are hundreds of billions of dollars held by the richest middle class in the world, I am talking more than fifty or a hundred times bigger than the US middle class. Many of these people would like to be able to transfer either a fraction or all of their wealth outside of China in order to protect themselves from higher taxes or inflation in future, both of which are an inevitability in the global race for `growth` which will cause a worldwide depression bigger than any in history.
When this worldwide depression hits there will be a massive wall of money trying to come out of China that cannot be sent through traditional currency transfers. And guess how it will be sent? That`s right, XC!
And if you are wondering who will be there to facilitate the transactions coming out of China, well that is the beauty of capitalism. As long as there is a significant demand for capital to be sent and safely stored overseas then there will a competitive market to provide this service in future.
Maybe it should be possible to also delete a log of the receiver address from the wallet of the sender? In case of government confiscation of said wallet. This would cause more people to use XC to send large sums of money anonymously which is the ultimate goal of the coin with the added benefit to early XC supporters/adopters of adding buy pressure to the price.
+ eleventy billion. I am so f'ing sick to watch my state, Illinois, flush my money down the drain and then want to tax me more and the same with our government. Fuck the IRS if they are going to get any capital gains I get from cryptos!! |
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atcsecure
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June 03, 2014, 06:03:09 PM |
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Hi,
I've been lurking in this thread since just before the peak when i bought about 500 XC. I have high hopes for this coin and have been constantly refreshing both this thread, the uncensorred thread all day and night and following constantly.
May I suggest that after the next release there is a bounty for finding the sending address and showing a link between sending and receiving adresses. Maybe send out a few other transactions for the same amount to other addresses at the same time to make guesswork harder.
This test was just "find the sending address". As it stands I think chaeplin deserves the bountry.
ah, so this is a good point, basically chaeplin guess'd the address's but could not document the link on blockchain (as it doesn't exist), so its a win-win in my book I think that the bounty for documenting the link on the blockchain still exists.. |
Join the revolution - XC - Decentralized Trustless Multi-Node Private Transactions
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