[XCR] Crypti | Dapps | Sidechains | Dapp Store | OPEN SOURCE | 100% own code | DPoS

[Primitive]

guys, please consider keeping this thread alive and well.

BCT sucks, but its the center of the altcoin universe. 

i think XCR risks losing a lot of attention if you move away.

are there any coins that have successfully done so?

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[Litoshi]

guys, please consider keeping this thread alive and well.

BCT sucks, but its the center of the altcoin universe. 

i think XCR risks losing a lot of attention if you move away.

are there any coins that have successfully done so?

GreXX was saying that we are stil in the ANNOUNCEMENT section of BTT.  If we maintain a thread here, it should be in the "grown up" section.

One drawback for using BTT, is that several of the Crypti devs did not check the blog unless we pointed out something needing their attention.  Mostly it was GreXX, Max, and I posting here. 

We have had our own blog, but it got spammed by professional robo-spammers.  We have a better one now.  The devs, like Boris, Stas, Seb, Pavels 1 &2, promise to read and post there.  Also it has our real pics there.  I am the handsome one.

[Bitseed]

Keep in mind as always, that we pay attention to everything you guys say and we are already discussing it internally due to the comments here. That doesn't mean it will change, but we have re-opened the dialogue.

The Crypti team separates itself from most other projects because you guys are open minded, intelligent and care about the long term future.
I want you to know its appreciated and to keep it going that direction.

Just a reminder that bitcoin miner fee is .0001 of a btc. 1 Nxt is all the fee there is for any transaction of any size.
Crypti is in heavy competition with all coins. So .5% looks huge in comparison. At first glance that may be a bad thing.
But I can also start to see it as differentiating itself from the other coins too.
The flat % fee looks more commercial. Like a marriage between old school finance and new school decentralized currency.

Just throwing that thought in fwiw.

The fee is higher initially to create an incentive for people to go through the expense and work of setting up and running delegates during the initial phase of lower transaction volume. The plan is to go to a fee which dynamically adjusts based on activity, so as volume increases, the fee decreases.

I fully understand the issue with transaction fees. It is a big problem I have with credit and debit cards and other payment processors. Since many of the recipients of funds turn around and use the funds to buy inventory and pay expenses using the same payment systems with similar fees, which is yet again recursively spent and more fees paid paying still more people and businesses, it adds up to a huge parasitic overhead on the economy. A major goal of the crypto currency movement is to eliminate this type of burden on productive people.

[Tobo]

When logging in the client, I see the Add second passphrase option next to the account number. Why and when do I need the second passphrase? Do I need a very long word for the second passphrase as well?

[Litoshi]

When logging in the client, I see the Add second passphrase option next to the account number. Why and when do I need the second passphrase? Do I need a very long word for the second passphrase as well?

Your first passphrase is used to generate the private key which then hashes into your account number.  Same as the present nodes do.  The second passphrase is optional, but recommended to secure your XCR further. 

The phrases can be as long as 100 characters.  As with other things, the longer the better.

[GreXX]

When logging in the client, I see the Add second passphrase option next to the account number. Why and when do I need the second passphrase? Do I need a very long word for the second passphrase as well?

Hey Tobo,

The idea is redundant security. The first pass-phrase acts as your account password while the second pass-phrase, if activated, is required to do any form of transaction from that account. This way, if someone were to somehow guess, brute-force, or reverse engineer your account password, they would still have to figure out an entirely separate password to do anything with your funds. It's just an added level of security to ensure that your coins stay safely where they should be!

[stormia]

When logging in the client, I see the Add second passphrase option next to the account number. Why and when do I need the second passphrase? Do I need a very long word for the second passphrase as well?

Hey Tobo,

The idea is redundant security. The first pass-phrase acts as your account password while the second pass-phrase, if activated, is required to do any form of transaction from that account. This way, if someone were to somehow guess, brute-force, or reverse engineer your account password, they would still have to figure out an entirely separate password to do anything with your funds. It's just an added level of security to ensure that your coins stay safely where they should be!

I really like it, my coins feel extremely secure and yet I can access them from literally anywhere that has internet using the crypti web wallet and all I have to do is remember two long and unique phrases.

[MalReynolds]

Can you please explain your reasons and vision for Crypti's future in regards to the hard coded .5% fee?
Low nominal transfer fees was one of Bitcoin's advantages over traditional money transmitters.
I understand Crypti's goals are aimed more at commerce than a typical crypto so an explanation would be appreciated.

The .5% fee is to make it worthwhile for users to run delegates that do the forging of transactions.  The fee can be changed....This is a project in motion, not an unchanging stone pyramid....As they say in the military "Remain Flexible"

The fee is higher initially to create an incentive for people to go through the expense and work of setting up and running delegates during the initial phase of lower transaction volume. The plan is to go to a fee which dynamically adjusts based on activity, so as volume increases, the fee decreases...I fully understand the issue with transaction fees. It is a big problem...A major goal of the crypto currency movement is to eliminate this type of burden on productive people.

I would like to see the Crypti usage fee set at 0.0% starting with 0.2.0.  This is doable.  WE SHOULD DO IT.

The REAL reason 0.5% has been picked is the belief that "0.5% is low enough that Crypti users will accept it", NOT "We the devs have an analysis showing 0.5% will cover estimated monthly node costs".  Currently no such cost analysis has been presented by anybody.  Yet estimated out-of-pocket monthly costs should be a primary factor in everybody's decision on whether or not to run a node as a Crypti Delegate.

There are three main costs for a Delegate to run a node:  hardware costs, electricity costs, and bandwidth costs.

Hardware:  A Crypti node can run on a ODROID-C1 (see http://www.hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php ) costing $35 for the CPU board, say another $25 for the power supply, memory card, etc.  That's $60 total hardware cost, amortized over a year of operation at $5 per month.    

Electricity:  A C1 runs at 10W max.  There's 30*24 = 720 hours per month.  These boards burn (10*720) / 1000 = 7.2 KWh per month.  At $0.15 per KWh total electricity cost is 7.2 * 0.15 = $1.1 per month.

Bandwidth: There's a lot of ways to estimate bandwidth costs.  I would say for the people who become Crypti Delegates, the INCREMENTAL bandwidth cost is zero.  They already have an internet connection they are paying for which they are not giving up if they don't become a Delegate, and to which they could easily link and add a ODROID-C1.   I know; I have a C1 node running an NXT client sitting quietly beside me right now as I type this.  I could easily do the same for a Crypti 0.2.0 node at minimal personal expense.

So...just what "expenses" is a Crypti Delegate trying to recover by tapping into a 0.5% user fee?  $60 bucks for an ODROID-C1?  A buck a month for power?  His internet service fee that he's going to pay no matter what so he can keep surfing the web?

Imposing a 0.5% user fee for such petty expenses is not necessary and it is not dreaming big.

Dreaming big is finding 101 Crypti users who will go out and buy with their own money a $60 C1 to run a Crypti node, and so become a part of the first cryptocurrency to charge ZERO USAGE FEES.  The value of their 10K+ Crypti will SKYROCKET because USERS WILL FLOCK TO ADOPT THE FIRST CRYPTOCURRENCY THAT CHARGES ZERO FEES.

The advertising value alone of being able to make such a claim for Crypti would be WELL worth any relatively minor out-of-pocket expenses incurred by the Delegates.

I hereby volunteer to run one or more C1 Crypti nodes as a Delegate and pay for their expense out of my own pocket forever IF the 0.2.0 user fee is set to 0.0% forever.

I solicit your vote with that as my promise.

I am looking for up to 100 others to join me in this pledge.

Will you please join me?  Will you HELP MAKE CRYPTI THE FIRST CRYPTOCURRENCY THAT CHARGES ZERO FEES?

[dzarmush]

guys, please consider keeping this thread alive and well.

BCT sucks, but its the center of the altcoin universe.  

i think XCR risks losing a lot of attention if you move away.

are there any coins that have successfully done so?

I absolutely agree with it. Separate forum is great for development and discussing specific topics, but Bitcointalk has thousands of active users. I open Crypti/Qora/Sim threads and see all news within 5 minutes. I'd never open 3 different forums just to catch up.

[Passion_ltc]

guys, please consider keeping this thread alive and well.

BCT sucks, but its the center of the altcoin universe. 

i think XCR risks losing a lot of attention if you move away.

are there any coins that have successfully done so?

I absolutely agree with it. Separate forum is great for development and discussing specific topics, but Bitcointalk has thousands of active users. I open Crypi/Qora/Sim threads and see all news within 5 minutes. I'd never open 3 different forums just to catch up.

We will of course cross-post everything to a BTT thread.

[Passion_ltc]

Can you please explain your reasons and vision for Crypti's future in regards to the hard coded .5% fee?
Low nominal transfer fees was one of Bitcoin's advantages over traditional money transmitters.
I understand Crypti's goals are aimed more at commerce than a typical crypto so an explanation would be appreciated.

The .5% fee is to make it worthwhile for users to run delegates that do the forging of transactions.  The fee can be changed....This is a project in motion, not an unchanging stone pyramid....As they say in the military "Remain Flexible"

The fee is higher initially to create an incentive for people to go through the expense and work of setting up and running delegates during the initial phase of lower transaction volume. The plan is to go to a fee which dynamically adjusts based on activity, so as volume increases, the fee decreases...I fully understand the issue with transaction fees. It is a big problem...A major goal of the crypto currency movement is to eliminate this type of burden on productive people.

I would like to see the Crypti usage fee set at 0.0% starting with 0.2.0.  This is doable.  WE SHOULD DO IT.

The REAL reason 0.5% has been picked is the belief that "0.5% is low enough that Crypti users will accept it", NOT "We the devs have an analysis showing 0.5% will cover estimated monthly node costs".  Currently no such cost analysis has been presented by anybody.  Yet estimated out-of-pocket monthly costs should be a primary factor in everybody's decision on whether or not to run a node as a Crypti Delegate.

There are three main costs for a Delegate to run a node:  hardware costs, electricity costs, and bandwidth costs.

Hardware:  A Crypti node can run on a ODROID-C1 (see http://www.hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php ) costing $35 for the CPU board, say another $25 for the power supply, memory card, etc.  That's $60 total hardware cost, amortized over a year of operation at $5 per month.   

Electricity:  A C1 runs at 10W max.  There's 30*24 = 720 hours per month.  These boards burn (10*720) / 1000 = 7.2 KWh per month.  At $0.15 per KWh total electricity cost is 7.2 * 0.15 = $1.1 per month.

Bandwidth: There's a lot of ways to estimate bandwidth costs.  I would say for the people who become Crypti Delegates, the INCREMENTAL bandwidth cost is zero.  They already have an internet connection they are paying for which they are not giving up if they don't become a Delegate, and to which they could easily link and add a ODROID-C1.   I know; I have a C1 node running an NXT client sitting quietly beside me right now as I type this.  I could easily do the same for a Crypti 0.2.0 node at minimal personal expense.

So...just what "expenses" is a Crypti Delegate trying to recover by tapping into a 0.5% user fee?  $60 bucks for an ODROID-C1?  A buck a month for power?  His internet service fee that he's going to pay no matter what so he can keep surfing the web?

Imposing a 0.5% user fee for such petty expenses is not necessary and it is not dreaming big.

Dreaming big is finding 101 Crypti users who will go out and buy with their own money a $60 C1 to run a Crypti node, and so become a part of the first cryptocurrency to charge ZERO USAGE FEES.  The value of their 10K+ Crypti will SKYROCKET because USERS WILL FLOCK TO ADOPT THE FIRST CRYPTOCURRENCY THAT CHARGES ZERO FEES.

The advertising value alone of being able to make such a claim for Crypti would be WELL worth any relatively minor out-of-pocket expenses incurred by the Delegates.

I hereby volunteer to run one or more C1 Crypti nodes as a Delegate and pay for their expense out of my own pocket forever IF the 0.2.0 user fee is set to 0.0% forever.

I solicit your vote with that as my promise.

I am looking for up to 100 others to join me in this pledge.

Will you please join me?  Will you HELP MAKE CRYPTI THE FIRST CRYPTOCURRENCY THAT CHARGES ZERO FEES?

Sorry, but with 0 fees you will soon have a blockchain size of several terabytes, as we don't have spam countermeasures. An Odroid can't run this.

[Vega]

Will you please join me?  Will you HELP MAKE CRYPTI THE FIRST CRYPTOCURRENCY THAT CHARGES ZERO FEES?

While I agree with you in that I don't like the 0.5% fee (It's great for micro payments, but bigger transactions costs too much, there should be a cap), transaction fees exist to prevent, minimize spam. With no fee the blockchain can be flooded with no cost and it can grow huge in no time.

[Sharky444]

I think 0.5% is way too high. The blockchain is bloated anyway, even without transactions, because of the constant block generation even if nothing happens.

[jiuge]

Again, NEM proves that there is a big benefit for the larger coin supply. The market cap becomes bigger and the cost per coin becomes smaller.

For instance, if XCR increases the coins to the 10x,the price will likely only shrink to 1/5 because of some buyers' psychological reasons. Therefore, the XCR market cap will double up. If XCR coins can increase 100x, the market cap will be ever higher without doing anything else. It is how the top ranked coins are doing on the current market.

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Jiuge, is your comment a sign of support, or disbelief for this suggestion?

This suggestion is strange.

[MalReynolds]

Will you please join me?  Will you HELP MAKE CRYPTI THE FIRST CRYPTOCURRENCY THAT CHARGES ZERO FEES?

Sorry, but with 0 fees you will soon have a blockchain size of several terabytes, as we don't have spam countermeasures. An Odroid can't run this.

... transaction fees exist to prevent, minimize spam. With no fee the blockchain can be flooded with no cost and it can grow huge in no time.

The blockchain is bloated anyway, even without transactions, because of the constant block generation even if nothing happens.

D'oh.  Silly me.

So the real core problem with blockchain technology is bloat and spam.  Therefore blockchain pruning MUST be implemented, which is (along with zero fees) another feature that has never been implemented by any cryptocoin.  Any cryptocoin without blockchain pruning is destined to die eventually.  Bitcoin is already seriously bumping into this problem after less than a decade.  One day Crypti will too.

If the actual true purpose of a user fee is not to adequately repay node runners (which I maintain it can't / won't - I dare somebody to produce a quantitative analysis to the contrary) but instead to prevent spam, then what would it take to implement blockchain pruning?  Instead of a bloated blockchain keeping a running history of every single transaction since genesis block, what is really needed is cryptographically certified current balances of all participants.   Current blockchains provide an audit trail and that's what the bloat is.  All that anybody really cares about is an honest, continually-updated balance sheet with everybody's name on it.  Losing the audit trail along with the bloat would enhance privacy, which is definitely a feature, not a bug.

Is it possible to reduce bloat among 101 delegates by programming them to not generate a block until one is needed?  No zero blocks until they are contacted by a client with a need to generate one?  What's the downside of that approach?

Could the jump from 0.1.9 to 0.2.0 also come with a temporary blockchain halt and recasting a new Genesis block with April 2014 members and their balances?  Coupled with 101 Delegates programmed for no generation of empty zero blocks and only casting a block when needed, this could make Crypti the most efficient blockchain out there.

Let's take this opportunity to drop what bloat (past AND FUTURE) that we can, if we can.
  
I look forward to Crypti simultaneously announcing blockchain pruning and zero fees in some future update beyond 0.2.0.  

[Tobo]

Mal, this has already been discussed. After the launch we will be transitioning out of this particular ular thread as we don't think this is the right Board for Crypti at this point. We might do another btt thread in a different sub forum but will be attempting to transition the majority of conversations and announcements to the blog and forum. We needed to keep this open until a certain point but I think we will be building enough buzz outside of this Avenue very soon.

It is a good idea to move to the new forum in the mean time keeping the BTT open. At the beginning, people may be reluctant to this move. But eventually they will like the new place. NXT is an example, in the beginning, majority of Nxters were against it and it took them a long time to make the move. But now everyone would think moving to the new forum was a good idea.

[Tobo]

This suggestion is strange.

Can you explain why you think it is strange?

The thing is that if coins supply increases to 10x, everyone's coins will increase to 10x and your coins will still keep the same proportion of the total coins as before. For instance, if you have 100k coins now, if increasing to 10x, your coins will be 1 millions after the increase. No one will lose anything.

[Malibusparky]

Again, NEM proves that there is a big benefit for the larger coin supply. The market cap becomes bigger and the cost per coin becomes smaller.

For instance, if XCR increases the coins to the 10x,the price will likely only shrink to 1/5 because of some buyers' psychological reasons. Therefore, the XCR market cap will double up. If XCR coins can increase 100x, the market cap will be ever higher without doing anything else. It is how the top ranked coins are doing on the current market.

This suggestion is strange.

Can you explain why you think it is strange?

The thing is that if coins supply increases to 10x, everyone's coins will increase to 10x and your coins will still keep the same proportion of the total coins as before. For instance, if you have 100k coins now, if increasing to 10x, your coins will be 1 millions after the increase. No one will lose anything.

You are strange because your reason for this change is for temporary short term price increase like its a game.
Crypti is a real project not a kids coin.
We in the crypto world are waiting for people who think like you to go away before real adoption can begin.

But the real reason you are strange is because the coin supply can never be changed.
That was the whole point of bitcoin. The supply is fixed forever and can not be altered by any one or government.

[Malibusparky]

The .5% fee still bothers me guys. I know the Crypti Team put a lot of thought into everything they do.
I wouldn't want you to change it just because 4 posts in a row say its too high.
Unless there is a really higher level thought process going into the .5% that you don't want to reveal I don't see it working.

Because Crypti is young and has little activity you want to reward delegates with a .5% fee.
Anybody running as a delegate now has to be doing it to support their investment in Crypti.
Its later on when we have high value and activity that a delegate will run for income.
So a high .5% fee now is unnecessary and will only turn off anyone looking into Crypti for the first time.

I was looking at blockchain.info. Look at all those transactions coming every second.
I know you guys said if we ever get to bitcoin level of activity the fee will reduce.
But bitcoin doesn't charge a %. Its a miner fee of .0001.
That means if you send one bitcoin it cost you .01% compared to Crypti's .5%.
If you send 10 bitcoins that same .0001 fee is only .001%.

Nxt from the beginning had 1 Nxt fee and even that was debated as being too high for a long time.
If you really like the flat % thing and have a reason for it then I feel it must be something significantly lower.
It has to be lower than .1%. To me .05% is still high but reasonable and won't turn off newcomers (.01% is better).
And when Crypti has a rise in value and usage, it should be lowered further.

Sending 100,000 Nxt costs 1 Nxt. At 100M supply Crypti's equivalent is sending 10,000 Xcr at .5% costs 50 xcr. Its only 5 xcr at .05%.
We should start at .05% and lower it to .01% when we're at 30-50M market cap.
But at the very very least if you dislike .05% then .1%. I mean .5% just sounds so high.

[Litoshi]

The .5% fee still bothers me guys. I know the Crypti Team put a lot of thought into everything they do.
I wouldn't want you to change it just because 4 posts in a row say its too high.
Unless there is a really higher level thought process going into the .5% that you don't want to reveal I don't see it working.

Because Crypti is young and has little activity you want to reward delegates with a .5% fee.
Anybody running as a delegate now has to be doing it to support their investment in Crypti.
Its later on when we have high value and activity that a delegate will run for income.
So a high .5% fee now is unnecessary and will only turn off anyone looking into Crypti for the first time.

I was looking at blockchain.info. Look at all those transactions coming every second.
I know you guys said if we ever get to bitcoin level of activity the fee will reduce.
But bitcoin doesn't charge a %. Its a miner fee of .0001.
That means if you send one bitcoin it cost you .01% compared to Crypti's .5%.
If you send 10 bitcoins that same .0001 fee is only .001%.

Nxt from the beginning had 1 Nxt fee and even that was debated as being too high for a long time.
If you really like the flat % thing and have a reason for it then I feel it must be something significantly lower.
It has to be lower than .1%. To me .05% is still high but reasonable and won't turn off newcomers (.01% is better).
And when Crypti has a rise in value and usage, it should be lowered further.

Sending 100,000 Nxt costs 1 Nxt. At 100M supply Crypti's equivalent is sending 10,000 Xcr at .5% costs 50 xcr. Its only 5 xcr at .05%.
We should start at .05% and lower it to .01% when we're at 30-50M market cap.
But at the very very least if you dislike .05% then .1%. I mean .5% just sounds so high.

We have had discussions about having a max cap on fees.  Meeting is tomorrow, and this will be on the agenda.  We are responsive to the concerns and suggestions of the community.  This is your coin too.

As for comparing with NXT, bear in mind that to forge in NXT, you need thousands of $ worth of NXT.  ANd with a 1 NXT fee, the forgers never earn enough NXT to make it profitable, or even worthwhile.

With XCR, you only need 1000XCR now to forge.  With the DPOS delegates, you can forge with 0 XCR in your delegate, as long as you have enough votes from nodes to place you in the top 101 delegates.