NEM (XEM) Official Thread - 100% New Code - Easy To Use APIs

[patmast3r]

Proof Of Importance? based on what?

POI is based on serveral things: How much NEM you have, how much NEM you are transferring to others, how much NEM other are transferring to you. The exact formula is not set in stone so far. That's we are a little vage how it works in details.

I would really like to see a third aspect which is how long the NEM client/node has been running put in the mix too.  This could help to encourage more people with smaller amounts of NEM to also turn their client on and leave it on in the background.  Hopefully someday the network will be supported by lots and lots of regular people.

Node Coin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=590421.0 has gone with client time (one point per second) and spending score (one point per coin spent) and then which ever Node has the highest score is more likely to harvest.  I think this is good, but they are missing the "coins received" and traditional Proof of Stake found in NEM.  

Crypti has also added proof of merchant, which means that special merchants that register can get a discount on transaction fees.  By doing this, they can also be rated and won't be anonymous.  A trait that we actually want when buying something from another.  Basically as buyers we want to be anonymous and have our privacy protected, but at the same time we want the exact opposite for merchants.  We want merchants out in the open and their history and reputation easily known.  Basically, we want to know who we are sending our money too and what kind of person they are.  This power in reputation has been a huge part of the success of Amazon and Ebay and really should also be incorporated into crypto too.  

I would call this PoS^4

Proof of Stake - Money held in account
Proof of Spend - Money going in and out
Proof of Service - How long a node has been supporting the network
Proof of Status - Registering with the network and allowing a reputation status

You wouldn't want to choose harvesters based on just running a node, as that is too easy to attack (you don't want to make it easy for people to be able to control when they harvest). However, we are currently trying to find a way to reward nodes who are active and also have a reputation for sending valid data (as determined by eigentrust++). The problem is, how do you keep track of the active nodes that are online at any given time?

How about sending out rewards to nodes just once a month? Using data from eigentrust++, nodes who have gained a certain reputation level (this is where the smart kids come in and crunch numbers to find that level) get a share of the rewards which are only payed out once a month and then it starts all over. Let's say there is a 25,000 NEM reward each month for nodes that have met the required reputation level, they would each receive an equal share which would be payed out at the beginning of the following month.

The problem is that eigentrust++ values are local and relative, not global and absolute.

Like I said, it's a hard problem

Does anyone know how Node does it?

Here is a very quick overview on what emuine does:

Hatchers are currently rewarded for their work with
a) tx fees
b) rewards.
Rewards are paid out when the emunie system decides to create new EMU. 50% of all newly created EMU are paid out to hatchers. These 50% are divided among the hatchers in proportion to the hatching work they have done.

Afaik hatcher are special nodes so emunie is not 100% decentralized. I'm not saying that's a bad thing - just pointing out the difference.
Paying out rewards to all harvesting nodes isn't a bad idea. It would however introduce inflation. What does the rest think about this ? Inflation in NEM ? If it's a very small inflation it could be a good thing.

Not sure why you think hatchers are special nodes,  anyone can be a hatcher just like anyone can harvest.

You have to be carful with inflation,  if there is no way to destroy coins then inflation could get out of hand.

Yes anyone can be a hatcher but it's like anyone can be a validator in Ripple right ?
I haven't really done a lot of research into etherum so forgive me if I'm wrong here.

[gimre]

After small problems with 0.3.1, 0.3.2 is here:
https://forum.nemcoin.com/index.php?topic=2471.msg5828#msg5828

[gimre]

After small problems with 0.3.1, 0.3.2 is here:
https://forum.nemcoin.com/index.php?topic=2471.msg5828#msg5828

P.S. this is most likely LAST alpha build, next one will be beta, then testing and testing and testing then launch.

[xtester]

After small problems with 0.3.1, 0.3.2 is here:
https://forum.nemcoin.com/index.php?topic=2471.msg5828#msg5828

P.S. this is most likely LAST alpha build, next one will be beta, then testing and testing and testing then launch.

Great work again, thanks a lot gimre. 

[davidsocom]

After small problems with 0.3.1, 0.3.2 is here:
https://forum.nemcoin.com/index.php?topic=2471.msg5828#msg5828

P.S. this is most likely LAST alpha build, next one will be beta, then testing and testing and testing then launch.

We all can imagine how hard you work for NEM. Thank you all a lot.

[TaunSew]

What does the rest think about this ? Inflation in NEM ? If it's a very small inflation it could be a good thing.

I haven't studied this at all.  

My guess is a very small amount might be okay.  

I don't think it will ever be okay.   Inflation is a tax on the poor.  All the new coins simply end up in the hands of the economic elite within the coin and smaller holders are penalized.

There's a lot of inflationary coins out there (PoW and PoS) and most of them fail with time.  What's the point of cryptos as a store of wealth when I can open an account at Vanguard Investment and get 1%-2% return above inflation and it is almost guaranteed my money will be there in the next 12 months?

I think it's crazy that people think 1%-5% annual inflation is ok.  It's not OK for me to lose 25% of my wealth in 5 years so some crypto-elite can have more money.  Even 5% is too much.  It's my money, I am not giving it away to some wealthy person through a hidden tax like inflation when I am already paying out of the a$$ for real world taxes (which ironically goes to the rich due to all the corruption within the government or the rich being the government).


If you want people to spend their coins then you need to stop using Communist tactics.
Vladimir Lenin: "The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation."


The way you get people to spend their coins is to increase the price of the coin or to give them incentives to spend.  PoI in a way is a lot like those reward points you see in credit cards / debit cards and people love that stuff.

[nembit86]

What does the rest think about this ? Inflation in NEM ? If it's a very small inflation it could be a good thing.

I haven't studied this at all.  

My guess is a very small amount might be okay.  

I don't think it will ever be okay.   Inflation is a tax on the poor.  All the new coins simply end up in the hands of the economic elite within the coin and existing holders are penalized.

There's a lot of inflationary coins out there (PoW and PoS) and most of them fail with time.  What's the point of cryptos as a store of wealth when I can open an account at Vanguard Investment and get 1%-2% return above inflation and it is almost guaranteed my money will be there in the next 12 months?

I think it's crazy that people think 1%-5% annual inflation is ok.  It's not OK for me to lose 25% of my wealth in 5 years so some crypto-elite can have more money.

TS is correct.
There need be no inflation.
Actually a healthy economy with fixed monetary supply should mean that purchasing power should increase over time for each unit and this
shouldnt have an adverse effect on total economy.

[mepsipax]

Hi   I just attempted to log in here to Bicointalk.org, and had trouble with my password - which I hadn't changed.

Was getting nowhere, so I requested a password change, waited - no email was sent to my registered address.

Finally got in via my 'secret question' to find my email address had been changed to a Russian one!

My password for this site btw is around 16 characters/upper/lower/numbers etc   so should be impossible to guess.

I have now changed my email address back to my original one, and changed my password (another long random one)

My PC is clean, no keyloggers or trojans etc

Given that our Btc.Org accounts are our proof of Nem stake, I am concerned this may happen again.

Advice appreciated

[xtester]

Now this is an important move through which crypto enters a new phase: http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/30/reddit-scoops-up-50m-series-b-from-sam-altman-a16z-sequoia-at-500m-valuation/?ncid=rss

Once one such startup begins experimenting, a lot other will follow.

[nembit86]

any chance of sending me a few coins anyone?....testing the newest version of the client  

[TaunSew]

Now this is an important move through which crypto enters a new phase: http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/30/reddit-scoops-up-50m-series-b-from-sam-altman-a16z-sequoia-at-500m-valuation/?ncid=rss

Once one such startup begins experimenting, a lot other will follow.

Yeah this 'experiment' could be tried on other websites.  Is it viable?  Historically when did an "air drop" ever succeed?  The oldest example I know are those privatization vouchers in the 1990s and that was a disaster and no air drop in crypto has yet to succeed either.

Seems like this is more going to be like Doge - Cryptos for new people and eventually these people will move onto more serious alternates.

[xtester]

Now this is an important move through which crypto enters a new phase: http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/30/reddit-scoops-up-50m-series-b-from-sam-altman-a16z-sequoia-at-500m-valuation/?ncid=rss

Once one such startup begins experimenting, a lot other will follow.

Yeah this 'experiment' could be tried on other websites.  Is it viable?  Historically when did an "air drop" ever succeed?  The oldest example I know are those privatization vouchers in the 1990s and that was a disaster and no air drop in crypto has yet to succeed either.

Seems like this is more going to be like Doge - Cryptos for new people and eventually these people will move onto more serious alternates.

Once Reddit, Facebook and Google start launching their own coins/economy, I think the game could change dramatically.

[martismartis]

any chance of sending me a few coins anyone?....testing the newest version of the client  

Sent some

[nembit86]

any chance of sending me a few coins anyone?....testing the newest version of the client  

Sent some

cheers, and your generous

[Jaguar0625]

The way you get people to spend their coins is to increase the price of the coin or to give them incentives to spend.  PoI in a way is a lot like those reward points you see in credit cards / debit cards and people love that stuff.

I respectfully disagree. Increasing the price of the coin encourages people to hoard, not spend. If people think time will increase their wealth, they will not spend. That is why deflation is such a threat. In deflationary economies, spending power increases over time, and consumer spending drops precipitously.

Inflation has the opposite effect. It erodes spending power over time. While it's bad for an individual, it's healthy for an economy. It makes people less likely to save and more likely to spend because it causes spending power to decrease over time.

[makoto1337]

What does the rest think about this ? Inflation in NEM ? If it's a very small inflation it could be a good thing.

I haven't studied this at all.  

My guess is a very small amount might be okay.  

I don't think it will ever be okay.   Inflation is a tax on the poor.  All the new coins simply end up in the hands of the economic elite within the coin and existing holders are penalized.

There's a lot of inflationary coins out there (PoW and PoS) and most of them fail with time.  What's the point of cryptos as a store of wealth when I can open an account at Vanguard Investment and get 1%-2% return above inflation and it is almost guaranteed my money will be there in the next 12 months?

I think it's crazy that people think 1%-5% annual inflation is ok.  It's not OK for me to lose 25% of my wealth in 5 years so some crypto-elite can have more money.

TS is correct.
There need be no inflation.
Actually a healthy economy with fixed monetary supply should mean that purchasing power should increase over time for each unit and this
shouldnt have an adverse effect on total economy.

The problem is that people lose passwords, etc, so the amount of NEM will decrease over time. So I think we need a small amount of inflation (e.g., 0.1337% ). If this is distributed randomly, then it won't just go to the rich.

[jabo38]

What does the rest think about this ? Inflation in NEM ? If it's a very small inflation it could be a good thing.

I haven't studied this at all.  

My guess is a very small amount might be okay.  

I don't think it will ever be okay.   Inflation is a tax on the poor.  All the new coins simply end up in the hands of the economic elite within the coin and existing holders are penalized.

There's a lot of inflationary coins out there (PoW and PoS) and most of them fail with time.  What's the point of cryptos as a store of wealth when I can open an account at Vanguard Investment and get 1%-2% return above inflation and it is almost guaranteed my money will be there in the next 12 months?

I think it's crazy that people think 1%-5% annual inflation is ok.  It's not OK for me to lose 25% of my wealth in 5 years so some crypto-elite can have more money.

If there was inflation it should only be to cover lost coins.

I suggested another way to handle the lost coin situation at NXT but it didn't catch on. There could be a time limit on stale accounts. Like if an account didnt have any activity for 10 years, then it's money is released back into the system.  I think the problem is that kind of thing is very hard to write in a code.

A 0.1% inflation wod mean losing 1% of wealth every 10 years. I could live with that but the whole 3%-%5 is just not acceptable.

TS is correct.
There need be no inflation.
Actually a healthy economy with fixed monetary supply should mean that purchasing power should increase over time for each unit and this
shouldnt have an adverse effect on total economy.

The problem is that people lose passwords, etc, so the amount of NEM will decrease over time. So I think we need a small amount of inflation (e.g., 0.1337% ). If this is distributed randomly, then it won't just go to the rich.

[TaunSew]

The way you get people to spend their coins is to increase the price of the coin or to give them incentives to spend.  PoI in a way is a lot like those reward points you see in credit cards / debit cards and people love that stuff.

I respectfully disagree. Increasing the price of the coin encourages people to hoard, not spend. If people think time will increase their wealth, they will not spend. That is why deflation is such a threat. In deflationary economies, spending power increases over time, and consumer spending drops precipitously.

Inflation has the opposite effect. It erodes spending power over time. While it's bad for an individual, it's healthy for an economy. It makes people less likely to save and more likely to spend because it causes spending power to decrease over time.

Actually there would still be immense inflation in a fixed total supply.  Leave the total supply alone.

Fractional Reserve Banking has been around since 6000 BC (when people deposited their gold into the prototypical banks in return for scrip and there were more IOUs than reserves).  FRB in the modern era means banks can print immense fortunes out of thin air and this is the cause for a lot of inflation in our world.  FRB won't go away just because we have digital currencies.   There's even fractional reserves in the world's gold supply (more gold exists on paper than what actually exists).

Then there's the inflation / deflation cycles that occur from velocity of money and market conditions (war, droughts, overproduction, underproduction, et cetera).



As I said before inflation is a tax on the poor and it simply doesn't belong in a digital currency and should be minimized (why would the mainstream adopt digital currencies if they can preserve their wealth better through things like Vanguard Investments, real estate, et cetera).

[EFFV]

The way you get people to spend their coins is to increase the price of the coin or to give them incentives to spend.  PoI in a way is a lot like those reward points you see in credit cards / debit cards and people love that stuff.

I respectfully disagree. Increasing the price of the coin encourages people to hoard, not spend. If people think time will increase their wealth, they will not spend. That is why deflation is such a threat. In deflationary economies, spending power increases over time, and consumer spending drops precipitously.

Inflation has the opposite effect. It erodes spending power over time. While it's bad for an individual, it's healthy for an economy. It makes people less likely to save and more likely to spend because it causes spending power to decrease over time.

Actually there would still be immense inflation in a fixed total supply.  Leave the total supply alone.

Fractional Reserve Banking has been around since 6000 BC (when people deposited their gold into the prototypical banks in return for scrip and there were more IOUs than reserves).  FRB in the modern era means banks can print immense fortunes out of thin air and this is the cause for a lot of inflation in our world.  FRB won't go away just because we have digital currencies.   There's even fractional reserves in the world's gold supply (more gold exists on paper than what actually exists).

Then there's the inflation / deflation cycles that occur from velocity of money and market conditions (war, droughts, overproduction, underproduction, et cetera).



As I said before inflation is a tax on the poor and it simply doesn't belong in a digital currency and should be minimized (why would the mainstream adopt digital currencies if they can preserve their wealth better through things like Vanguard Investments, real estate, et cetera).

I am also against inflation for reasons TaunSew has stated.

Inflation will add more confusion and instability to a young market like NEM. Not only people who own alot of NEM will save. Inflation will also affect the guy who owns only .1 NEMstake.  Saving is not a bad thing. Spending is not a bad thing. Keep the market as simple as possible.  Average Joe probably will not weight inflation when he buys NEM, but NEM early adopter will think about it alot. This will lead to the latter having the advantage.

[jabo38]

I would be fine with 0% inflation