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Author Topic: eUtopium [UPM] ∞ Social Enterprise of Mystery: Truth, Knowledge, Education.  (Read 62588 times)
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August 04, 2014, 04:00:43 PM
 #401

Looking nice and strong today Grin

“But it's a poor fellow who can't take his pleasure without asking other people's permission.” ― Hermann Hesse, Steppenwolf
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August 04, 2014, 04:12:08 PM
 #402

Dear UPM community,

What features & technical developments would you like to see in the UPM code/wallet?


Curious,
Adam


how about some research on sidechains or treechains?
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August 04, 2014, 04:13:26 PM
 #403

Dear UPM community,

What features & technical developments would you like to see in the UPM code/wallet?


Curious,
Adam


how about some research on sidechains or treechains?


Perhaps the AVE service could collect some research and perceptions regarding that topic.

But how can we implement that into the UPM code/wallet?

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August 04, 2014, 04:14:22 PM
 #404

Dear UPM community,

What features & technical developments would you like to see in the UPM code/wallet?


Curious,
Adam


how about some research on sidechains or treechains?


Perhaps the AVE service could collect some research and perceptions regarding that topic.

But how can we implement that into the UPM code/wallet?

here:


Sidechains, Treechains, the TL;DR


(i am not the author of this article, here is the source: http://blog.greenaddress.it/2014/06/13/sidechains-treechains-the-tldr/





This document is aimed at technical readers and is simply a brief explanation of sidechains and treechains as far as I understand them, based on public information.  Both are obviously still in very preliminary development, but this document is just to introduce the broad concepts, and their consequences. Some people have been asking for something like this, might as well see if this helps.

With GHash is getting nearly 50% of hashing power of the network, this discussion is more timely than ever.

I’ll start with sidechains, since treechains are essentially a specific form of sidechains.

Sidechains:

In the most general, sidechains will use “SPV Proofs” to send satoshis from the regular Bitcoin chain to the sidechain, and allows the sidechain to eventually send the satoshis back to the main chain once the owner of said coin is finished utilizing the sidechain. While in the sidechain, the main chain knows nothing of what’s happening to the coin, the sidechain is the one tracking who owns what at what time.

The side chain can basically have any rules it likes for what a valid block is, block times, etc. Typically the idea is that these chains will be merge mined with the Bitcoin network, to ensure that a reasonable amount of hashing power is protecting the sidechain network from DoS, and outright theft of coins by miners which is possible due to the limitations of the SPV proofs. It’s important to note however, that it has been suggested that the outright theft of coins by miners may be protected against using zk-SNARKs.(https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/507.pdf)

The pros of sidechains appear to be:


1 You don’t need permission to start a new chain with new validation rules, block times, whatever. You could fairly trivially add Zerocash, Ethereum rules, and still have them pegged in satoshis. Also would be a great way to test out new opcodes/communication protocols for the base protocol and codebase.

2 The sidechains would be backed by the hashing power of the Bitcoin network, so given certain conditions(detailed below) it can’t be trivially attacked.


The cons are as far as we know(not counting new zk-SNARK moon math that hasn’t been given to the public):


1 Merge mining also means two things: There is no inherent block reward. Security will most likely be only be from transaction fees. more importantly, you need to convince the large pools to manually activate the merged mining of these chains, otherwise a 51% attack is essentially free. You also have to trust the pools aren’t faking downtime, while secretly mining the chain.

2 Long-term it can contribute to centralization of mining, just in the same way that increasing the block size would. It would be optional to mine these sidechains yes, but if it becomes a sizeable fraction of transaction fees, the economics work in the favor of more centralization.

3 Sending satoshis back and forth  between chains will take days, to ensure that satoshis aren’t being stolen by miners, again due to the aforementioned SPV proofs, which is something that simply can’t happen in vanilla Bitcoin. Most going back and forth will be done using atomic swaps in between users to reduce this waiting period.


Treechains:

I think of treechains as tighter-coupled sidechains. The difference in chain structure is larger than between sidechains and the vanilla Bitcoin protocol, so I’m tackling them in broad brush-strokes.

1 Miners are not required to validate blocks, outside of the PoW difficulty being low enough, and being a proper hash of the block+previous block. If the block header looks legit, miners can start to build on top of this.


2 Starting from the main Bitcoin chain, each chain will have a left and right descendant chain. This builds a binary tree of chains, hence “treechains”. Each chain level has 2^(numlevels-1) chains, doubling the number of the previous level. Each difficulty threshold is also halved. Based on the hash of the transactions, they can only be mined in in specific paths of the tree structure(starting from the first bit of the hash from the root of the tree, ‘0’ means left subtree, ‘1’ means right). Each time satoshis are spent, it will get sent to another chain in the same level based on the previous transaction’s hash(ignoring up/down movement for clarity).
In addition, each path is merge mined, allowing miners to mine one and only one path of the tree using the same hashing work. So for example, 3 layers down, there should on average only be an 8th of the total transactions on any specific chain, as well as only an 8th of the total mining power, resulting in roughly the same block time as higher chains!

3 The chains are linked together more strongly than sidechains to enforce a total ordering of transactions. Every time a miner gets a PoW high enough for a certain level, it “links” that block with all the blocks being mined below together. This enforces the total ordering we want. Transactions on let’s say level 16 will have a higher chance of getting orphaned, but eventually once they “percolate” up to the main chain, they are just as secure as the main chain. The linking also determines when you can spend your satoshis, meaning lower chains will take longer to spend the same outputs again compared to higher chains. To spend your satoshis from chain A to chain B at level C, the previously mined transaction’s block in A must be linked to B’s nearest common ancestor chain, with the only valid paths being forward/up the chains, not backwards.

4 Last important thing to note about the tree structure: Parent chain always wins. If the child chain is in conflict with the parent chain(the links are inconsistent, making total ordering inconsistent), those blocks child blocks are orphaned. Therefore, re-organizations at higher chains can cause reorganizations at lower chains, but not vice versa.


And their consequences/caveats:

1 Since miners aren’t required to validate anything outside of basic PoW, this breaks the need to beg miners for protocol changes. Granted, there will be a base BTC layer that allows things like “miner gets block reward” and “pay .0001 BTC to miner for transaction fee” to incentivize the mining, but outside of this, it allows fairly arbitrary protocols. One could even imagine paying a miner colored coins to get it included in a block, if the miner wanted equity! One thing this can’t do versus sidechains is initialize chains with arbitrary block times. However you might be able to get away with much faster block times than vanilla Bitcoin due to #2. Overall, this will let innovation at the edges happen, without having to agree on everything with Core Devs, or mining pools, or industry, etc. SPV clients won’t be possible, at least in their current form, due to SPV’s assumption that mined blocks are validated by the miners.

2 Proving who owns what when will be more complicated for the client, as they can’t assume miners are validating a certain protocol. Clients will have to hold data outside of their private keys, proving to the payee that these coins exist and control them. This will be more complicated than our SPV clients we have today, but will make running a node with “full node” security tractable, as you don’t care what the contents of most blocks are, just the blocks that prove to you that you own the satoshis you own(a small sample of blocks compared to the whole tree of chains). These proofs will be “compact”, although it remains to be seen how much more compact than linear in block sizes we can get(insert zk-SNARK moon math for sublinear performance?).

3 Combining with consequences from #1, miners will be able to mine as little or as much as they like, with only paying attention to block headers, and block payloads that again, prove to him that they’re actually being paid to mine by fees. A miner could simply keep track of all headers in the treechains, which is trivial, and solo mine 16 levels down, where their variance is 2^(-16) less than the vanilla blockchain mining, due to the sparsity of miners that far down in a branch. If a user is willing to wait a while for the ability to re-spend their outputs, they can approach a solo miner, pay a smaller fee than usual, and wait for the block to get linked higher in the tree.This opens up a true marketplace for fees, as well as allows small pools/solo miners to make a real difference when it comes to block creation. Lastly, this system appears to scale to an infinite amount of transactions, without hurting decentralization.

4 The linking scheme ultimately means that orphan rates will be higher at lower levels, and re-spending outputs will take longer, and will be based on where the next transaction will end up in the tree structure. However, for your coffee money, it enables you to get in a block, and for the merchant to not worry too much that you’ll try and 51% attack 5 levels down as it won’t make economic sense.

In summary(TL;DR’s TL;DR):


A Sidechain, at its most general, is a loosely coupled chain that, in general, uses merged mining to protect the network. These chains are “backed” by BTC from the Bitcoin network, rather than minting their own coin and diluting scarcity. There are some questions about security guarantees versus the Bitcoin network.


A Treechain is a structure of more-tightly coupled sidechains. This structure, in theory, allows miners to mine at arbitrary variance without pooling, scaling of the system far beyond 7tps without asking permission, and other innovation at the edges, all with the same protections of the main Bitcoin network. With the huge caveat that the idea is still half-baked, has no known SPV client support, and is much more complicated than a vanilla blockchain.


Both ideas are interesting ways of tackling some of the important problems that all cryptocurrencies face. We should know more about the actual implementation of sidechains within 3 months, as the company Blockstream will be releasing a white paper and source code. Many of these ideas that aren’t published will be directly applicable to treechains, as they are kin in many ways, including how they will be rolled out initially.

I’m personally biased towards treechains in that I believe the de-coupling of miners and policy is a huge step forward, even just for new fancy opcodes without permission. It may also enable us to be free of begging MegaPool#9 not to 51% attack us, which is already happening. I for one would like to solo-mine on a USB ASIC!

Unfortunately due to its complexity and fundamental difference with Bitcoin proper, it will almost certainly take more time to flesh out and convince others that radical steps need to be taken to keep cryptocurrency decentralized. I look forward to its development.

If you have time on your hands to check out more of the details of treechains,
here is Peter Todd’s initial writeup of many of the ideas: http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04388.html


As well as the Let’s Talk Bitcoin podcast where he goes into much of this detail: here:http://letstalkbitcoin.com/ltb104-tree-chains-with-peter-todd/
(thanks to /u/_Mr_e)

Hope someone finds this helpful,

Greg Sanders
Contributor to Bitcoin.org’s Bitcoin Developer Guide
gsanders87@gmail.com


Peter Todd (https://twitter.com/petertoddbtc)sent us the following:

FWIW there are some concerns raised re: how tree chains handles data
loss at the lowest levels; I’m not sure yet that those concerns can be
resolved. Also Adam Back raised some potential issues re: incentives in
some edge cases. Of course, you did quite correctly describe the idea as
half baked. Smiley


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August 04, 2014, 04:15:13 PM
 #405

and this one:

 more details of TreeChains?

here is a article by peter todd:

http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04388.html


Tree-chains preliminary summary

Peter Todd Tue, 25 Mar 2014 05:39:15 -0700

On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 12:43:34PM -0700, Mark Friedenbach wrote:
> Btw, any chance we could get a summary description of tree-chains
> posted to bitcoin-development?
sure


1
Introduction
============


Bitcoin doesn't scale. There's a lot of issues at hand here, but the
most fundemental of them is that to create a block you need to update
the state of the UTXO set, and the way Bitcoin is designed means that
updating that state requires bandwidth equal to all the transaction
volume to keep up with the changes to what set. Long story short, we get
O(n^2) scaling, which is just plain infeasible.

So let's split up the transaction volume so every individual miner only
needs to keep up with some portion. In a rough sense that's what
alt-coins do - all the tipping microtransactions on Doge never have to
hit the Bitcoin blockchain for instance, reducing pressure on the
latter. But moving value between chains is inconvenient; right now
moving value requires trusted third parties. Two-way atomic chain
transfers does help here, but as recent discussions on the topic showed
there's all sorts of edge cases with reorganizations that are tricky to
handle; at worst they could lead to inflation.

So what's the underlying issue there? The chains are too independent.
Even with merge-mining there's no real link between one chain and
another with regard to the order of transactions. Secondly merge-mining
suffers from 51% attacks if the chain being merge-mined doesn't have a
majority of total hashing power... which kinda defeats the point if
we're worried about miner scalability.

2 Blocks and the TXO set as a binary radix tree
=============================================


So how can we do better? Start with the "big picture" idea and take the
linear blockchain and turn it into a tree:


Obviously if we could somehow split up the UTXO set such that individual
miners/full nodes only had to deal with subsets of this tree we could
significantly reduce the bandwidth that any one miner would need to
process. Every transaction output would get a unique identifier, say
txoutid=H(txout) and we put those outputs in blocks appropriately.

We can't just wave a magic wand and say that every block has the above
structure and all miners co-ordinate to generate all blocks in one go.
Instead we'll do something akin to merge mining. Start with a linear
blockchain with ten blocks. Arrows indicate hashing:

    a0 ⇽ a1 ⇽ a2 ⇽ a3 ⇽ a4 ⇽ a5 ⇽ a6 ⇽ a7 ⇽ a8 ⇽ a9

The following data structure could be the block header in this scheme.
We'll simplify things a bit and make up our own; obviously with some
more effort the standard Satoshi structures can be used too:

    struct BlockHeader:
        uint256 prevBlockHash
        uint256 blockContentsHash
        uint256 target
        uint256 nonce
        uint time

For now we'll say this is a pure-proof-of-publication chain, so our
block contents are very simple:

    struct BlockContents:
        uint256 merkleRoot

As usual the PoW is valid if H(blockHeader) < blockHeader.target. Every
block creates new txouts, and the union of all such txouts is the txout
set. As shown previously(1) this basic proof-of-publication
functionality is sufficient to build a crypto-currency even without
actually validating the contents of the so-called transaction outputs.

The scalability of this sucks, so let's add two more chains below the
root to start forming a tree. For fairness we'll only allow miners to
either mine a, a+b, or a+c; attempting to mine a block with both the b
and c chains simultaneously is not allowed.

    struct BlockContents:
        uint256 childBlockHash # may be null
        bool childSide # left or right
        uint256 merkleRoot

Furthermore we shard the TXO space by defining txoid = H(txout) and
allowing any txout in chain a, and only txouts with LSB=0 in b, LSB=1 in
c; the beginning of a binary radix tree. With some variance thrown in we
get the following:




We now have three different versions of the TXO set: ∑a, ∑a + ∑b, and
∑a+∑c. Each of these versions is consistent in that for a given txoutid
prefix we can achieve consensus over the contents of the TXO set. Of
course, this definition is recursive:




Unicode unfortunately lacks 3D box drawing at present, so I've only
shown left-sided child chains.


3 Herding the child-chains
========================



If all we were doing was publishing data, this would suffice. But what
if we want to syncronize our actions? For instance, we may want a new
txout to only be published in one chain if the corresponding txout in
another is marked spent. What we want is a reasonable rule for
child-chains to be invalidated when their parents are invalidated so as
to co-ordinate actions across distant child chains by relying on the
existance of their parents.

We start by removing the per-chain difficulties, leaving only a single
master proof-of-work target. Solutions less than target itself are
considered valid in the root chain, less than the target << 1 in the
root's children, << 2 in the children's children etc. In children that
means the header no longer contains a time, nonce, or target; the values
in the root block header are used instead:

    struct ChildBlockHeader:
        uint256 prevChildBlockHash
        uint256 blockContentsHash

For a given chain we always choose the one with the most total work. But
to get our ordering primitive we'll add a second, somewhat brutal, rule:
Parent always wins.

We achieve this moving the child block header into the parent block
itself:

    struct BlockContents:
       ChildBlockHeader childHeader # may be null (zeroed out)
       bool childSide # left or right
       bytes txout
Let's look at how this works. We start with a parent and a child chain:




to



This behavior is easier to understand if you say instead that the node
learned about block b2', which had more total work than b2 as the sum
total of work done in the parent chain in blocks specifying the that
particular child chain is considered before comparing the total work
done in only the child chain.

It's important to remember that the parent blockchain has and validates
both childrens' block headers; it is not possible to mine a block with
an invalid secret of child headers. For instance with the following:



I can't mine block a5 that says following b2 is b2' in an attempt to
kill off b2 through b7.

4 Token transfer with tree-chains
===============================


How can we make use of this? Lets start with a simple discrete token
transfer system. Transactions are simply:

    struct Transaction:
        uint256 prevTxHash
        script prevPubKey
        script scriptSig
        uint256 scriptPubKeyHash

We'll say transactions go in the tree-chain according to their
prevTxHash, with the depth in the tree equal to the depth of the
previous output. This means that you can prove an output was created by
the existance of that transaction in the block with prefix matching
H(tx.prevTxHash), and you can prove the transaction output is unspent by
the non-existance of a transaction in the block with prefix matching
H(tx).

With our above re-organization rule everything is consistent too: if
block b_i contains tx1, then the corresponding block c_j can contain a
valid tx2 spending tx1 provided that c_j depends on a_p and there is a
path from a_p to b_(i+k). Here's an example, starting with tx1 in c2:



Now that a3 exists, block c2 can only be killed if a3 is, which would
also kill b3 and thus destroy tx2.


5 Proving transaction output validity in a token transfer system
==============================================================

How cheap is it to prove the entire history of a token is valid from
genesis?  Perhaps surprisingly, without any cryptographic moon-math the
cost is only linear!

Remember that a transaction in a given chain has committed to the chain
that it can be spent in. If Alice is to prove to Bob that the output she
gave him is valid, she simply needs to prove that for every transaction
in the histroy of the token the token was created, remained unspent,
then finally was spent. Proving a token remained unspent between blocks
b_n and b_m is trivially possible in linear size. Once the token is
spent nothing about blocks beyond b_m is required. Even if miners do not
validate transactions at all the proof size remains linear provided
blocks themselves have a maximum size - at worst the proof contains some
invalid transactions that can be shown to be false spends.

While certainly inconvenient, it is interesting how such a simple system
appears to in theory scale to unlimited numbers of transactions and with
an appropriate exchange rate move unlimited amounts of value. A possible
model would be for the the tokens themselves to have power of two
values, and be split and combined as required.

6 The lost data problem
=====================


There is however a catch: What happens when blocks get lost? Parent
blocks only contain their childrens' headers, not the block contents.
At some point the difficulty of producing a block will drop sufficiently
for malicious or accidental data loss to be possible. With the "parent
chain wins" rule it must be possible to recover from that event for
mining on the child to continue.

Concretely, suppose you have tx1 in block c2, which can be spent on
chain b. The contents of chain a is known to you, but the full contents
of chain b are unavailable:



The proof of now shows that while a3 and a4 has b-side blocks, by the
time you reach b6 those two lost blocks were in the minority. Of course
a real system needs to be careful that mining blocks and then discarding
them isn't a profitably way to create coins out of thin air - ratios
well in excess of 1:1 are likely to be required.

7 Challenge-response resolution
=============================


Another idea is to say if the parent blockchain's contents are known we
can insert a challenge into it specifying that a particular child block
be published verbatim in the parent. Once the challenge is published
further parent blocks may not reference that children on that side until
either the desired block is re-republished or some timeout is reached.
If the timeout is reached, mining backtracks to some previously known
child specified in the challenge. In the typical case the block is known
to a majority of miners, and is published, essentially allowing new
miners to force the existing ones to "cough up" blocks they aren't
publishing and allow the new ones to continue mining. (obviously some
care needs to be taken with regard to incentives here)

While an attractive idea, this is our first foray into moon math.
Suppose such a challenge was issued in block a2, asking for the contents
of b1 to be published. Meanwhile tx1 is created in block c3, and can
only be spent on a b-side chain:



A proof of tx2 as valid payment would entirely miss fact that the
challenge was published and thus not know that b1' was invalid. While
I'm sure the reader can come up with all kinds of complex and fragile
way of proving fraud to cause chain a to be somehow re-organized, what
we really want is some sub-linear proof of honest computation.  Without
getting into details, this is probably possible via some flavor of
sub-linear moon-math proof-of-execution. But this paper is too long
already to start getting snarky.


8 Beyond token transfer systems
=============================


We can extend our simple one txin, one txout token transfer transactions
with merkle (sum) trees. Here's a rough sketch of the concept:



Where previously a transaction committed to a specific transaction
output, we can make our transactions commit to a merkle-sum-tree of
transaction outputs. To then redeem a transaction output you prove that
enough prior outputs were spend to add up to the new output's value. The
entire process can happen incrementally without any specific
co-operation between miners on different parts of the chain, and inputs
and outputs can come from any depth in the tree provided that care is
taken to ensure that reorganization is not profitable.

Like the token transfer system proving a given output is valid has cost
linear with history. However we can improve on that using
non-interactive proof techniques. For instance in the linear token
transfer example the history only needs to be proven to a point where
the transaction fees are higher than the value of the output. (easiest
where the work required to spend a txout of a given value is well
defined) A similar approach can be easily taken with the
directed-acyclic-graph of mutliple-input-output transactions. Secondly
non-interactive proof techniques can also be used, again out of the
scope of this already long preliminary paper.

1) "Disentangling Crypto-Coin Mining: Timestamping,
   Proof-of-Publication, and Validation",

http://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg03307.html



 Grin Grin
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August 04, 2014, 04:59:48 PM
 #406

Get the coin to the http://coinmarketcap.com
In next few hours big exchanges will fight about this coin.
If dev plays smart and fair I think that price could go more than 10 times higher than this in short period of time.


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August 04, 2014, 05:00:32 PM
 #407

Thank you provenceday that's very informative!

Might just be a stupid idea, but what about embedding another coin into UPM as a sidechain, hence both helping out each other's ecosystems? is something like this possible?

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August 04, 2014, 05:02:53 PM
 #408

Get the coin to the http://coinmarketcap.com
In next few hours big exchanges will fight about this coin.
If dev plays smart and fair I think that price could go more than 10 times higher than this in short period of time.



patience my friend. utopia was not built in one day.

On another note, thank you silverduck;

Quote from: silverduck
Hello, ive just created a subreddit for eutopium

http://www.reddit.com/r/eUtopium/

donations: k9MGZHtj8mDsqE2aTURiJeSBcCSTvHbTB9


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August 04, 2014, 05:34:57 PM
 #409

Academic Value Exchange (AVE): Update #2



Academic Value Exchange (AVE) service: http://www.utopiaco.in/home/publish/
Instructions: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13f97z489USzMn_f9QSgqU2ptKKSR0ajxqAEabYohW6g/edit?usp=sharing.

The AVE service is a UPM backed initiative, funded by the eUtopium Education Fund (eUEF).

https://twitter.com/AltcoinAdam/status/496346031853142018



https://twitter.com/AltcoinAdam/status/496346422296731649

The papers can be found here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/l7neychxipirsiz/AACEQzLPd6RkpvaJZUuNmqGOa

And they will also be added here:
https://github.com/AltcoinAdam/Utopia/tree/master/education
http://www.utopiaco.in/home/education/

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August 04, 2014, 05:58:02 PM
 #410

eUtopium ∞ [UPM] Food For Thought: Fairness & Stability in Perpetuity. Possible?

Proof-of-Fairness is working out well for all investors involved thus far. But do not be complacent, for we have only been alive for 4 days.



One of the biggest problems that altcoins face, as i have come to understand thus far, is the problem of "pumps and dumps". How is it possible for an altcoin to avoid being victim to an accelerated pump and dump which leaves the not-so-smart investors at big losses? It may not be their fault, or ours, but does it even need to happen? Although we have shown that a fair & profitable ico distribution that caters to all parties involved is possible, and that stability in a coin can be achieved in the short term, it is unfortunately also highly unlikely for an altcoin's price to increase forever, and remain stable in perpetuity.

Sure, there will be dramatic ups & downs in the charts in the future, but what does it really mean for an altcoin to be stable? What does a pump & dump really mean? How can stability be achieved in the volatility of altcoins?

Is it possible for an altcoin to achieve stability & fairness in perpetuity? If so, how? And how can we learn from that to make UPM an even better altcoin?

Please share your thoughts, for I have shared mine.

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August 04, 2014, 06:25:04 PM
 #411

and why exactly is this coin not on trex yet?
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August 04, 2014, 06:28:16 PM
 #412

and why exactly is this coin not on trex yet?

they had to add some scams first to fill the scam quotient
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August 04, 2014, 06:30:06 PM
 #413

and why exactly is this coin not on trex yet?

I would advice dev to contact Ritchie from Bittrex.
In IRC he made a comment about the premine

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August 04, 2014, 06:37:11 PM
 #414

and why exactly is this coin not on trex yet?

I would advice dev to contact Ritchie from Bittrex.
In IRC he made a comment about the premine

already contacted bill via email and given details. i honestly do not understand their 3 BTC fee for altcoins to "guarantee a launch and be in the spotlight". do you like that? how does that help weed out scamcoins? it doesn't. it only helps bittrex earn more money from shitcoins who want their coin to get pumped on trex. am i wrong? enlighten me.



thus, shitcoins galore. such is the altcoin industry now...  Undecided Cry Sad


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August 04, 2014, 06:53:23 PM
 #415

Behave yourself: https://bittrex.com/Market/Index?MarketName=BTC-UPM

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August 04, 2014, 06:56:08 PM
 #416

Could you elaborate at which price the 20% crowdfunding bought at and also where's the transparency on that? (How do we know you're not holding them yourself? - "premine")

http://www.utopiaco.in/home/crowdfunder-list/

The final BTC pot was 19.6034.

And you are right, i could have and would have easily "invested" in my own UPM project if it wasn't my own, because I believe in it so much.

Thus i have two choices, i send myself bitcoins, or i don't.

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August 04, 2014, 07:03:23 PM
 #417

Could you elaborate at which price the 20% crowdfunding bought at and also where's the transparency on that? (How do we know you're not holding them yourself? - "premine")

http://www.utopiaco.in/home/crowdfunder-list/

The final BTC pot was 19.6034.

And you are right, i could have and would have easily "invested" in my own UPM project if it wasn't my own, because I believe in it so much.

Thus i have two choices, i send myself bitcoins, or i don't.

what do you mean?
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August 04, 2014, 07:05:49 PM
 #418

and why exactly is this coin not on trex yet?

I would advice dev to contact Ritchie from Bittrex.
In IRC he made a comment about the premine

already contacted bill via email and given details. i honestly do not understand their 3 BTC fee for altcoins to "guarantee a launch and be in the spotlight". do you like that? how does that help weed out scamcoins? it doesn't. it only helps bittrex earn more money from shitcoins who want their coin to get pumped on trex. am i wrong? enlighten me.



thus, shitcoins galore. such is the altcoin industry now...  Undecided Cry Sad



Only shitcoins in the spotlight thing of Bittrex, don't bother.






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August 04, 2014, 07:09:54 PM
 #419

UPM is on bittrex

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August 04, 2014, 07:13:41 PM
 #420

Could you elaborate at which price the 20% crowdfunding bought at and also where's the transparency on that? (How do we know you're not holding them yourself? - "premine")

http://www.utopiaco.in/home/crowdfunder-list/

The final BTC pot was 19.6034.

And you are right, i could have and would have easily "invested" in my own UPM project if it wasn't my own, because I believe in it so much.

Thus i have two choices, i send myself bitcoins, or i don't.

what do you mean?

i could have, as Zzyz claimed, to have "premined" UPM myself by "holding the crowdfund to myself". or i could have paid myself 1 btc to buy 1 btc worth of the crowdfund. but then again, why send 1 btc to myself? guys, please think, not for me, but for yourself. and you can save yourself a lot of trouble  Wink

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