GAW ZenCloud ZenPool Hashlet - does it really exist? ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :-)

[MOB]

I've deposited some BTC in ZEN. It's been in for longer than 24 hours. No hashpoints earned. Should I bother contacting GAW about this? I think I'll just put my funds somewhere else if I just want to gain some interest on them while they sit. I've heard bitfinex is good and reliable for that. What do you guys think?

You get more on Bitfinex, but only if you convert it to fiat.  The BTC lending rate is terribly low.

I have a referral link in my sig that gives you 10% of fees (fees are 15% of profit) for a month.

Also, keep in mind that the amount of BTC being withdrawn in service fees is going to be higher since the price of Bitcoin is lower.

Hello all,

is it me or payment are decreasing ??

It's not you. Rates are creeping down for Zenpool, probably to emulate the performance of a real pool.

This is part of why I brought up GAW shorting BTC & even mining in general somewhere on page 10-20 on this thread.

This also brings to mind an additional weakness, or manipulable, aspect of GAW's payment scheme, which is again only a problem because of GAW's business model.  By no means is GAW necessarily doing this, but it is an additional risk inherent to their non-mining business model.


1.  GAW fees are deducted at seemingly random times within a 10-12 hour window on any given day.  This would give GAW the ability to selectively choose to convert your BTC into USD at moments most favorable to them.  Just a few cents each time, done 400,000+ times, would be enough income to to run a business. (.03 = $340,000/month)

2.  GAW could seemingly preclude this possibility (and not require a customer's blind trust) by having a set time in which fees are assessed.  Josh has made many statements to this effect, but has yet to actually adhere to his own published time to convert your BTC to their fiat fee.

3.  However, even if they did set a standard time, then they merely open themselves up to external manipulation.  If a whale had a significant investment in hashlets and the ability to do arithmetic, then they could artificially inflate the Coinbase price just prior to GAW pulling the exchange rate.  A bot could easily do this.

4.  GAW could also do this, though offering only the appearance of a fair fee assessment policy.

5.  GAW could, instead of taking USD fees, take it in BTC.  However, since they don't actually mine, this would likely be more work.  They would also make a lot less profit in the event of BTC trending downward, which is all BTC has done for the last 8 months.




This brings me to GAW potentially taking a short position on mining:

1. My fee yesterday was 31.48% of my mining.

2. If BTC drops to $300, then that fee would be ~43%.  That is a 72% increase in fees since GAW started hashlets (at 25%).  If you peg your ROI to fiat, then between the relative fee increase and the BTC drop, you will never ROI.

3.  GAW, however, would make just as much money, regardless of downward performance of BTC.  GAW customers assume the risk of BTC downtrends, while GAW makes money.

[verloren]

https://hashtalk.org/topic/7458/pulling-all-primes-off-the-market/

In a few hours we will be pulling all Hashlet Primes off the market, they will not be able to be sold for the next few days.

We will be implementing a new structure for Hashlet Primes. This is why I did not make any announcement yesterday, I have been trying to solve a major issue with the structure of Hashlet Primes.

Right “out of the gate” the most challenging part of Hashlet Primes is that the majority of folks did not pay $50 for them. Actually, the largest group paid $16 or less, the second largest group between $20-$40, and the smallest group $50. But, all customers want the same amount of “extra features” we plan to add. Obviously, this is an issue we created for ourselves, I admit that. But none the less, it does not change the math we are working with.

Let me explain what I mean. All primes can mine at 1MH of scrypt. But, what happens when we allow for SHA mining on Primes? should the person that paid $16 be able to mine at the same speed as the person that paid $50? I have been struggling with this for weeks.

Don’t be alarmed, we will NOT be removing any feature you have currently have and all Primes WILL have the same upgrade path. But instead, implementing a structure to allow us to scale the concept of Primes for the future.

Many will like the idea, some will not. The good news for all is that it will allow us to finally move forward with some of the cool features we want to role out (SHA) Even allow is to finally get VB batch 2 out :grinning:

I will make a post here later today on our plan

2 hours later - https://hashtalk.org/topic/7469/hashlet-prime-pricing-change-sha-and-batch-2

Since no one knows the changes we planned to make, and some of you just expected the worst, I will come out with it :grinning:

Our main goal here at GAW is to bring mining to everyone in the world! One of the most common questions we get asked is to lower the price of Hashlet Primes so they become more affordable for the “average user”

Hashlet Solos can be confusing for new miners, and Primes can be too expensive for them. We think its important to be accessible to all miners.

This is something we have wanted to do for a while, but have not been able to figure out a good way as many of you paid a lot for your Hashlet Primes!

Here is what we are going to do:

Starting September 24th, we will be lowering the price of Hashlet Primes to $25

For those that paid more, for them, don’t worry, we will not leave you behind! We will automatically credit your account the price difference from what you paid VS the new price.

To repeat, all customers that paid more will receive a credit for the difference of what they paid VS the new price.

All Hashlet Primes will continue to have all the same awesome features as before but just at a much better price!

For those of you that are selling your Primes:
If your Prime was for sale before this announcement, you will still get the same selling price. If it was put up for sale after this announcement, it will be adjusted to the new selling price (we will post that soon)

Again, if you paid MORE for your Hashlet Prime, you will receive a credit equal to the extra amount you paid, so in all cases, the math will still be the same for you.

Other Things
I know we are little behind, the software changes we had to make really put us behind!

But, I am happy to announce that all Hashlet Primes will be able to mine 40 GH of SHA at the end of next week :grinning:

PS. all VB Batch 2 customers will get a 1:1 ratio of Hashlet Primes at the end of next week too :grinning:

Josh

[MOB]

Well, those are quite the announcements.

It appears that those who sold their Hashlet's at more than $25 are the biggest winners thus far. Resale for hashlets will now be ~$21-$22.

This also destroys Hashlet solo value.  Will Josh offer any recompense to people who purchased Hashlet solos instead of Primes while Primes were artificially inflated in price? Who would be happy with a hashlet solo when a prime can now be purchased second-hand for the same price?


Additionally, since primes are shares in GAW, this is tantamount to diluting the shares.  Anyone who purchased at more than $25 will now have additional shares, which will certainly reduce payouts for each individual share.  Payouts do not magically appear, so increasing the number of primes without additional revenue will certainly result in lower individual payouts per MH.

[suchmoon]

1.  GAW fees are deducted at seemingly random times within a 10-12 hour window on any given day.  This would give GAW the ability to selectively choose to convert your BTC into USD at moments most favorable to them.  Just a few cents each time, done 400,000+ times, would be enough income to to run a business. (.03 = $340,000/month)

[...]

GAW customers assume the risk of BTC downtrends, while GAW makes money.

Yes, they should assess the fees in a more predictable manner. It doesn't have to be Coinbase, if that can be manipulated. Maybe some kind of a broader price index if such a thing exists.

As for the risk, it's the same risk you would have with real mining, isn't it? (assuming the fees are not manipulated). If you have a miner that produces BTC and consumes fiat (e.g. in the form of electricity or hosting) you have the risk of BTC going down and the power company or the hosting provider is making money.

[suchmoon]

For those that paid more, for them, don’t worry, we will not leave you behind! We will automatically credit your account the price difference from what you paid VS the new price.
[...]
For those of you that are selling your Primes:
If your Prime was for sale before this announcement, you will still get the same selling price. If it was put up for sale after this announcement, it will be adjusted to the new selling price (we will post that soon)

Private purchases are not mentioned, so I'm assuming those who bought at >$25 are getting fucked really hard. Which is ok in my book 

But if I have a Prime that I'm now trying to sell via the official marketplace/exchange/whatchamacallit at $40, who is going to buy it? I don't think that part makes sense.

[Honeycutt22]

For those that paid more, for them, don’t worry, we will not leave you behind! We will automatically credit your account the price difference from what you paid VS the new price.
[...]
For those of you that are selling your Primes:
If your Prime was for sale before this announcement, you will still get the same selling price. If it was put up for sale after this announcement, it will be adjusted to the new selling price (we will post that soon)

Private purchases are not mentioned, so I'm assuming those who bought at >$25 are getting fucked really hard. Which is ok in my book 

But if I have a Prime that I'm now trying to sell via the official marketplace/exchange/whatchamacallit at $40, who is going to buy it? I don't think that part makes sense.

Yea not sure how that will work unless GAW covers the difference... I put mine up for sale right when I saw the annoucement.. So hoping I get the 40 per instead of 20.

[MOB]

1.  GAW fees are deducted at seemingly random times within a 10-12 hour window on any given day.  This would give GAW the ability to selectively choose to convert your BTC into USD at moments most favorable to them.  Just a few cents each time, done 400,000+ times, would be enough income to to run a business. (.03 = $340,000/month)

[...]

GAW customers assume the risk of BTC downtrends, while GAW makes money.

Yes, they should assess the fees in a more predictable manner. It doesn't have to be Coinbase, if that can be manipulated. Maybe some kind of a broader price index if such a thing exists.

As for the risk, it's the same risk you would have with real mining, isn't it? (assuming the fees are not manipulated). If you have a miner that produces BTC and consumes fiat (e.g. in the form of electricity or hosting) you have the risk of BTC going down and the power company or the hosting provider is making money.

I agree that is a very similar risk to actual mining, but there are some differences and those differences matter.

GAW taking the fees in USD instead of BTC unequivocally speaks to GAWs bearish stance on cryptocurrency.  Call it good business, but realize that in structuring their fees this way GAW is taking a bet against their own customers. This creates a moral hazard that does not exist when the power company is on the other end.


If they used a daily average instead of a specific time or exchange rate, then that would likely deal with the problems that I raised.  A daily average of Winkdex, or a similar index, would certainly eliminate outside or inside fee manipulation. (but still leave the problem with fees being in USD)

[MOB]

For those that paid more, for them, don’t worry, we will not leave you behind! We will automatically credit your account the price difference from what you paid VS the new price.
[...]
For those of you that are selling your Primes:
If your Prime was for sale before this announcement, you will still get the same selling price. If it was put up for sale after this announcement, it will be adjusted to the new selling price (we will post that soon)

Private purchases are not mentioned, so I'm assuming those who bought at >$25 are getting fucked really hard. Which is ok in my book  

But if I have a Prime that I'm now trying to sell via the official marketplace/exchange/whatchamacallit at $40, who is going to buy it? I don't think that part makes sense.

Yea not sure how that will work unless GAW covers the difference... I put mine up for sale right when I saw the annoucement.. So hoping I get the 40 per instead of 20.

Well, if GAW is competent, then they will only give you the $20 ;p  However, since it is GAW, no doubt they have no automated system in place to distinguish. Maybe you will get it sold for $40!


Yep, good point Suchmoon.  If the biggest winner is that person that sold primes for more than $25, then the biggest loser is anyone who purchased them privately or had them transferred privately.  That person would be a double loser.

Their share would not only be diluted, but they also overpaid for each share.  Welcome to never ROI territory.

[MOB]

Sorry for so many posts this morning, but has anyone ever had a physical Vaultbreaker shipped?  Did VBs ever exist?

KNC already has units in the wild.

[suchmoon]

Sorry for so many posts this morning, but has anyone ever had a physical Vaultbreaker shipped?  Did VBs ever exist?

KNC already has units in the wild.

Nope, but the original estimate was end of Q3 / beginning of Q4 so technically they are still on time.

[alienesb]

At this point it's probably worth considering going back to physical miners and Nicehash because unless hashlet prices drop more and the zenpool rate stops going down you'll be kicking that ROI period very far into the future.

[suchmoon]

Reading some of the HT comments I can see another group of customers that is being Ewoked quite substantially - Genesis purchasers who paid $1 per GH/s when Prime now does the same and more at ~$0.6.

[tom14cat14]

Reading some of the HT comments I can see another group of customers that is being Ewoked quite substantially - Genesis purchasers who paid $1 per GH/s when Prime now does the same and more at ~$0.6.

Based on everything GAW has done in the past. They will be compensated. Yes they probably should have made it all in one announcement however based on what they have done for customers they will make them comparable.

[tom14cat14]

BTW if you bought a miner from a different company and then a week or 2 later they announce they have a better miner coming out how many would tell you to go pound sand?

[MOB]

Reading some of the HT comments I can see another group of customers that is being Ewoked quite substantially - Genesis purchasers who paid $1 per GH/s when Prime now does the same and more at ~$0.6.

Heh.  Yea, a 40% hit is a bit much to handle.

It seems like Josh just makes decisions with very little planning or awareness of their long-term implications.  

This entire mess of announcements and dramatic changes in price, payout level, and function makes it impossible for any customer to plan for their future. Perhaps Josh should get a magic 8 ball to make all of his decisions.  It might be more predictable.

Reading some of the HT comments I can see another group of customers that is being Ewoked quite substantially - Genesis purchasers who paid $1 per GH/s when Prime now does the same and more at ~$0.6.

Based on everything GAW has done in the past. They will be compensated. Yes they probably should have made it all in one announcement however based on what they have done for customers they will make them comparable.

It is not one announcement because Josh probably has not considered all of the possibilities.

If you "compensate" them by offering them a 40% increase in SHA performance then they still purchased the wrong product. The hashlet will do everything the genesis does and more.

The problem here is that customers cannot make an informed decision when GAW hides the rulebook and then rewrites those portions of it that have been made public every single week.



edit: didn't Josh claim hashlets would no longer be for sale--ever--like three weeks ago?  What happened to that?

[EvilPanda]

Sorry for so many posts this morning, but has anyone ever had a physical Vaultbreaker shipped?  Did VBs ever exist?

KNC already has units in the wild.

What units? Did anyone get the Titan? KNC thread is full of people complaining about refunds and wondering when their miners will arrive.
The only units that are in the wild are Neptunes.

Based on everything GAW has done in the past. They will be compensated. Yes they probably should have made it all in one announcement however based on what they have done for customers they will make them comparable.

+1

[tom14cat14]

Reading some of the HT comments I can see another group of customers that is being Ewoked quite substantially - Genesis purchasers who paid $1 per GH/s when Prime now does the same and more at ~$0.6.

Heh.  Yea, a 40% hit is a bit much to handle.

It seems like Josh just makes decisions with very little planning or awareness of their long-term implications.  

This entire mess of announcements and dramatic changes in price, payout level, and function makes it impossible for any customer to plan for their future. Perhaps Josh should get a magic 8 ball to make all of his decisions.  It might be more predictable.

They still pay pretty much the same as yesterday. The only problem is you cant sell it for a huge profit. I some how doubt he really cares that someone that no longer wants his product will sell it for less then they could have. Look at any car company do you think they car the moment you drive it off the lot it is worth a ton less if you try to resell it? This is a good thing long term. You can now buy them for half the price. yes we lose the chance to get a quick ROI by selling them. But for those who will hold them nothing has changed on their payout.

[coinGeek]

Lots of interesting posts this morning but I think it's worth putting a line under this:

...

1. My fee yesterday was 31.48% of my mining.

...

To expand on that, a $.08 / Mh fee is .0002 BTC for a $400 bitcoin. If Zenpool is paying about .0006 the fee is 1/3 of the payout. ROI calculations that ignore the fee (because it's only eight cents) will be off by 33%.

[randayh]

At this point it's probably worth considering going back to physical miners and Nicehash because unless hashlet prices drop more and the zenpool rate stops going down you'll be kicking that ROI period very far into the future.

If you don’t hold it, you don’t own it. They can change the hashrate and value of your hashlet on a whim. Or whatever suits the bottom line. I think the end is getting near especially with BTC dropping, just my opinion.

[suchmoon]

BTW if you bought a miner from a different company and then a week or 2 later they announce they have a better miner coming out how many would tell you to go pound sand?

Not sure what you are trying to say. I've bought many physical miners, including from GAW itself, and while there was always a risk of depreciation, there was also a free market to sell and buy them (think eBay), if the vendor tells me "to go pound sand". With hashlets I'm stuck with whatever pricing structure GAW is providing. Cutting the price of their flagship product in half with some fuzzy excuse is worrying no matter how you look at it. My best guess is that they saw the number of hashlets put on sale at $40 and realized this is not going to work. Which is fine with me because I didn't think for a minute that the hashlet is worth $50 or even $40, but the attempts to rewrite the history are hilarious. Go look up the hype surrounding Prime price increases from 16 to 50.