Scientific proof that God exists?

[My Name Was Taken]

Macro and Micro evolution are very different!  We have not seen evidence of macro evolution (changes of a fish to a dog for example).  The solution that evolutionary scientists give is just to throw "millions of years" into the equation so that they can rationalize that it took that long to happen. (still not long enough)  If the changes that occur cause differences that make it so the species cannot mate isn't that an evolutionary problem in itself?  Creationists completely agree with "micro evolution" because it is simply adaptations or changing of traits within a species.  It is such a huge jump from changes within a species to changes outside of a species though, one that has no fossil record or evidence to support whatsoever.

Most of this stuff isn't true. You dumbed down "macro evolution" so much that it doesn't make sense. A fish doesn't change into a dog, if that's how you're defining "macro evolution" then of course you're going to come to the conclusion that it's false. Further, evolution IS supported by the fossil record. If it isn't, go get your PhD in evolutionary biology, write the book that proves evolution wrong, and collect your Nobel Prize. It's really very simple. I wonder why no Christian has ever thought of it before?

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[BADecker]

The fact that you believe this life is all there is a very sad and depressing thought.

Herein lies the truth. Religious folk simply can't accept that this is their one and only life.

There is absolutely nothing in evolution theory that suggests a way that the diversity and complexity in nature could have happened.

In the face of the laws of probability along with the apparent entropy we see all around, evolution is an absolute impossibility.

In fact, the continual political-like hollering of atheists and others is the only thing that keeps the idea of evolution alive.

With the creation of the Internet, as people come to realize the truth that evolution is impossible, even the hollering will soon die.

It's actually quite simple really. A change in environment causes evolutionary changes in species in an attempt to adapt better to said environment. If there was no diversity in environments then perhaps your statement may have a chance to hold true. Then again maybe you're right and god just made different races of people to give us another reason to go to hell for being racist. Yeah, that makes more sense.  

Oh, now don't start getting upset (unless you really want to, that is).

No matter how you look at it, diversity, combined with probability, combined with entropy, entirely disallows any form of evolution we can dream up, not just as some kind of improbability, but rather as an absolute impossibility.

Do the math. Then look somewhere else. Evolution is (and always has been, really) dead. The fact that it is written in the books will make it take a long time before its death is apparent.



EDIT: I should have added universe complexity in there.

[BitChick]

If I believe to the core of my being that the Bible is true and that those that do not accept Jesus will spend an eternity in hell, what kind of person would I be if I did not care about others enough to share this with them?  Seriously!

You'd be the kind of person who recognized that just as you have your own truth that god exists, other people have their own truth that he doesn't, and that just as convinced that you are that it is impossible to be wrong, they are just as convinced that it is impossible to be wrong. You'd be the kind of person who recognized that personal truth is personal, and while not universal (meaning everyone has their own personal truths), they are absolute, meaning nothing you can say can change them. And you'd also be the type of person who is considerate for respecting other people's beliefs, and not condescending by thinking your beliefs trump theirs and you have to "fix" them.

Morality doesn't come from religion. It comes from empathy and the realization that inflicting harm on another person is wrong. Religions teach that no matter what you do to other people, as long as you're serving god you'll go to heaven. Atheists believe that you have one life, so allowing other people to be harmed makes you a bad person, because those people also have one life, and it should not be subject to suffering. That's the world I see without religion. One where "serving god" can't be used as an excuse to inflict harm on other people.

You are so sure that there is no God that you are content that this life is all there is and that there is not even the slight possibility that heaven and hell may actually exist?

That is a risk you are willing to take, but I have had God miraculously reveal Himself to me in such a way that I cannot deny His reality and the truth that He exist.  So for me to be quiet and not share would be me basically saying, "Even though I know without a doubt that heaven and hell exists and that God is real, I don't care if you don't know God and just go to hell."

I cannot do that.  That "empathy" you speak of is God given and it would be very wrong of me to not say anything.  

Also, Christianity does not teach that no matter what you do you will go to heaven.  It teaches that we have all sinned and without repentance we will not go to heaven.  What does the atheist believe about someone like Hitler?  He very much believed in Darwinian evolution.  He was tying to follow through on that belief with some "ethnic cleansing" that he felt was a good idea based on survival of the fittest.  On this earth he lived a rich and many would say successful life in doing so.  He was harming others but he justified it and even had scientific reasons for doing so.  So he did horrible things to humanity and now he just ceases to exist without any consequences?  Does that seem fair and right to you?  I personally believe that he will be held accountable for all eternity for his actions.  Of course, God will give grace and forgiveness for those that ask for it, even Hitler if he had humbly repented (which I highly doubt because he never showed evidence of a changed heart) We all have the capabilities to break His commandments and many of us have broken far more than one of them.  But thankfully if we are truly repentant He will forgive us, regardless of what sins we have committed. It is not a license to continue breaking "laws" because if we did that we would not be truly repentant.  

[My Name Was Taken]

The fact that you believe this life is all there is a very sad and depressing thought.

Herein lies the truth. Religious folk simply can't accept that this is their one and only life.

There is absolutely nothing in evolution theory that suggests a way that the diversity and complexity in nature could have happened.

In the face of the laws of probability along with the apparent entropy we see all around, evolution is an absolute impossibility.

In fact, the continual political-like hollering of atheists and others is the only thing that keeps the idea of evolution alive.

With the creation of the Internet, as people come to realize the truth that evolution is impossible, even the hollering will soon die.

It's actually quite simple really. A change in environment causes evolutionary changes in species in an attempt to adapt better to said environment. If there was no diversity in environments then perhaps your statement may have a chance to hold true. Then again maybe you're right and god just made different races of people to give us another reason to go to hell for being racist. Yeah, that makes more sense.  

Oh, now don't start getting upset (unless you really want to, that is).

No matter how you look at it, diversity, combined with probability, combined with entropy, entirely disallows any form of evolution we can dream up, not just as some kind of improbability, but rather as an absolute impossibility.

Do the math. Then look somewhere else. Evolution is (and always has been, really) dead. The fact that it is written in the books will make it take a long time before its death is apparent.



EDIT: I should have added universe complexity in there.

Please don't interrupt the adults when they're trying to have a discussion.

[(oYo)]

The fact that you believe this life is all there is a very sad and depressing thought.

Herein lies the truth. Religious folk simply can't accept that this is their one and only life.

There is absolutely nothing in evolution theory that suggests a way that the diversity and complexity in nature could have happened.

In the face of the laws of probability along with the apparent entropy we see all around, evolution is an absolute impossibility.

In fact, the continual political-like hollering of atheists and others is the only thing that keeps the idea of evolution alive.

With the creation of the Internet, as people come to realize the truth that evolution is impossible, even the hollering will soon die.

It's actually quite simple really. A change in environment causes evolutionary changes in species in an attempt to adapt better to said environment. If there was no diversity in environments then perhaps your statement may have a chance to hold true. Then again maybe you're right and god just made different races of people to give us another reason to go to hell for being racist. Yeah, that makes more sense.  

Oh, now don't start getting upset (unless you really want to, that is).

No matter how you look at it, diversity, combined with probability, combined with entropy, entirely disallows any form of evolution we can dream up, not just as some kind of improbability, but rather as an absolute impossibility.

Do the math. Then look somewhere else. Evolution is (and always has been, really) dead. The fact that it is written in the books will make it take a long time before its death is apparent.



EDIT: I should have added universe complexity in there.

LOL! I'm not mad. Are you? Obviously, I don't take these "debates" seriously, since I find your arguments to be quite flawed. I find it mildly entertaining at best.

I'm pretty sure Einstein had religious people in mind when he said, “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. So is a lot.” The "little" being what they know of science and reality, the "a lot" being what they assume of god.

[My Name Was Taken]

You are so sure that there is no God that you are content that this life is all there is and that there is not even the slight possibility that heaven and hell may actually exist?

Yes, as I've already stated, as positive as you are god exists, that's how positive atheists are you're wrong. For all the same reason: faith.

for me to be quiet and not share would be me basically saying, "Even though I know without a doubt that heaven and hell exists and that God is real, I don't care if you don't know God and just go to hell."

It would basically be saying "your truth is wrong, mine is right." Guess what, that works both ways.

That "empathy" you speak of is God given and it would be very wrong of me to not say anything.  

Empathy is an evolutionary trait. If it didn't evolve into the human species, we wouldn't care when other people were in danger of dying, which is bad for gene propagation.

Also, Christianity does not teach that no matter what you do you will go to heaven.

I didn't say "no matter what you do," I said if you're serving god. When the Church used to murder scientists for teachings that challenged the church doctrine, they knew they were going to heaven because they were serving god. People who used science to contradict the Bible were heretics. "Serving god" was used as a justification to commit all kinds of evils against other people. See: the Crusades. All those soldiers, murdering in the name of god, so if they died in battle they knew they were going to heaven.

What does the atheist believe about someone like Hitler?  He very much believed in Darwinian evolution.  He was tying to follow through on that belief with some "ethnic cleansing" that he felt was a good idea based on survival of the fittest.

You just went full Godwin's Law on us here. (Godwin's Law: if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.) The atheist believes Hitler was an asshole. Also, your association between Hitler and evolution is embarrassing for you:  http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hitler_and_evolution

Hitler's government killed 12 million people, and started a war that killed 50 million more. He killed himself as the Allies were advancing on his bunker, rather than face the consequences of his actions. Now he's just gone and that's the way it is. I don't need religion to reconcile the fact that life isn't fair. I just accept it and try not to harm anyone else because of it.

[BitChick]

You are so sure that there is no God that you are content that this life is all there is and that there is not even the slight possibility that heaven and hell may actually exist?

Yes, as I've already stated, as positive as you are god exists, that's how positive atheists are you're wrong. For all the same reason: faith.

for me to be quiet and not share would be me basically saying, "Even though I know without a doubt that heaven and hell exists and that God is real, I don't care if you don't know God and just go to hell."

It would basically be saying "your truth is wrong, mine is right." Guess what, that works both ways.

That "empathy" you speak of is God given and it would be very wrong of me to not say anything.  

Empathy is an evolutionary trait. If it didn't evolve into the human species, we wouldn't care when other people were in danger of dying, which is bad for gene propagation.

Also, Christianity does not teach that no matter what you do you will go to heaven.

I didn't say "no matter what you do," I said if you're serving god. When the Church used to murder scientists for teachings that challenged the church doctrine, they knew they were going to heaven because they were serving god. People who used science to contradict the Bible were heretics. "Serving god" was used as a justification to commit all kinds of evils against other people. See: the Crusades. All those soldiers, murdering in the name of god, so if they died in battle they knew they were going to heaven.

What does the atheist believe about someone like Hitler?  He very much believed in Darwinian evolution.  He was tying to follow through on that belief with some "ethnic cleansing" that he felt was a good idea based on survival of the fittest.

You just went full Godwin's Law on us here. (Godwin's Law: if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.) The atheist believes Hitler was an asshole. Also, your association between Hitler and evolution is embarrassing for you:  http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hitler_and_evolution

Hitler's government killed 12 million people, and started a war that killed 50 million more. He killed himself as the Allies were advancing on his bunker, rather than face the consequences of his actions. Now he's just gone and that's the way it is. I don't need religion to reconcile the fact that life isn't fair. I just accept it and try not to harm anyone else because of it.

So all that said, you believe we can choose our own God, or not choose God.  There is no absolute truth, we just decide our own truth and because of that I can believe whatever I want and so can you and the goal is just to live a good and decent life for the most part?

Knowing the only thing guaranteed in life is "death and taxes" as the saying goes, perhaps thinking about the possibility of eternity would be a good idea?

I guess the thing that shocks me the most is that people really don't care about life after death.  They are not concerned about the afterlife at all.  To me, eternity is the most important thing we need to consider.  This life is very short.  Each day I wake up well aware that it could be my last day on earth.  I try to live my life with that in mind.

[My Name Was Taken]

So all that said, you believe we can choose our own God, or not choose God.  There is no absolute truth, we just decide our own truth and because of that I can believe whatever I want and so can you and the goal is just to live a good and decent life for the most part?

Yes, that's the same thing you're doing, I just don't have a magic book to back it up. With the exception of "choosing" what to believe? Did you choose to believe in god? Probably not, you just do because that's what you believe. I'm the same way. I didn't choose not to believe in god. I just don't because that's what I believe.

I guess the thing that shocks me the most is that people really don't care about life after death.  They are not concerned about the afterlife at all.  To me, eternity is the most important thing we need to consider.  This life is very short.  Each day I wake up well aware that it could be my last day on earth.  I try to live my life with that in mind.

If I don't believe in an afterlife, why would I spend any time thinking about it or caring about it. YOU believe in an afterlife. That's your belief.

If I believed in the Flying Spaghetti Monster as my god, and all his teachings, I'd be trying to convince you to also believe in him because it would be the only way to salvation. You would look at me the same way I am looking at you. Why would I care about the Flying Spaghetti Monster afterlife, that's obviously not true. That's how I view your version of the afterlife. It's not true to you. It's true to me. What's true to you is not to me. Neither of us can prove the other wrong. I'm not asking you to change your beliefs, just asking you don't force them on people who don't want to live by the rules of your religion.

Your beliefs are not more important or more correct than someone else's. You don't have a right to force other people to act the way you want them to. That's my most important point in this thread. I'm fine with Christians and Muslims and Jews or any other religion that wants to believe anything they want, so long as they don't try to make anyone else live a life subject to their religious rules who doesn't want to.

[cooldgamer]

Please talk to a psychiatrist, you seem to have very severe depression if you hate living on this planet.  Not even being Sarcastic.

Back to the topic, the science of evolution is based on observation.  We have made organisms evolve in a lab right before our eyes.  Dog breeding works the same except with humans deciding which traits to keep instead of nature.  We can observe our common ancestors by looking at the body compared to other primates.  While the fossil record is not complete, what we have so far points to evolution.  

I don't believe in spiderman because there are fans of his enemies, that is pretty much the logic you're going on for saying satanism proves it.  Same with saying gods word proves it, says so right there in the comic that he is real!

I love the beauty of God's creation that I see all around me.  I love the people that I am thankful to have relationships with.  I love the people that speak with on these boards, even if they hate me and say I need a psychiatrist.

But I also see the misery of life and the hate (due to Satan's influence) that causes people to kill, steal and destroy.  There is evil all around us.  You must be marvelously blessed to have avoided the sufferings that are common to man?  Seriously.  We all deal with death, pain, sickness and so on.  This is not how God intended for us to live.  It is part of the fact we live in a fallen and not perfect world, one that eventually He will make right again.  

Dog breeding produces dogs right?  Has anyone bred a dog to become a cat?  Until I can see changes from one kind into another kind I will not believe in evolution.  There have been adaptations but these adaptations are not proof of evolution from one kind into another.  We as humans have more in common with dogs than apes so looking at the physical bodies to make comparisons is not enough.

You don't have to agree with me.   You don't have to believe in God.  That is the amazing thing about "free will."  I am just trying to encourage a few people on here to think about the risks of not believing.  If something is true then it doesn't matter if I believe it or you believe it or if any of us believes it.  If God's word is true then we will all be accountable to it.  

My point about "satanism" was just an interesting fact.  There is no other religion that has an "anti-religion" formed to fight it.  It was not proof by any means. I just figured it was an interesting thought that should at least cause us to pause and think for a minute.

You pretty much just admitted that evolution exists.  Macro evolution (changing species) is nothing more than micro evolution (changing traits) over a long period of time, to the point that one is not able to breed with another, and you have a new species just like that.  Think about domesticated dogs vs wolves and how different they are.  Over time they will become more and more different, to the point that they are no longer able to mate (this would be if they were in the wild, doesn't really apply since pets aren't going to be subjected to survival of the fittest but irrelevant to the example).  At this point you have a new species.  

For the record I don't hate you, you really did sound depressed

Macro and Micro evolution are very different!  We have not seen evidence of macro evolution (changes of a fish to a dog for example).  The solution that evolutionary scientists give is just to throw "millions of years" into the equation so that they can rationalize that it took that long to happen. (still not long enough)  If the changes that occur cause differences that make it so the species cannot mate isn't that an evolutionary problem in itself?  Creationists completely agree with "micro evolution" because it is simply adaptations or changing of traits within a species.  It is such a huge jump from changes within a species to changes outside of a species though, one that has no fossil record or evidence to support whatsoever.

You are completely wrong.  The process of a new species being formed is (using the wolf example)

Due to something, wolves are separated into A and B and unable to reach eachother.  Group B is in a different climate than group A

Both groups breed over a long period of time and evolution makes them adapt to their surroundings

Over a long enough period, the changes are so great that if group A and B met, their different features would make them unable to mate.  This could be from different mating periods/rituals, physical changes, etc



The dog and wolf example wasn't the best as I forgot to throw isolation in there, but same basic idea.

[BitChick]

So all that said, you believe we can choose our own God, or not choose God.  There is no absolute truth, we just decide our own truth and because of that I can believe whatever I want and so can you and the goal is just to live a good and decent life for the most part?

Yes, that's the same thing you're doing, I just don't have a magic book to back it up. With the exception of "choosing" what to believe? Did you choose to believe in god? Probably not, you just do because that's what you believe. I'm the same way. I didn't choose not to believe in god. I just don't because that's what I believe.

I guess the thing that shocks me the most is that people really don't care about life after death.  They are not concerned about the afterlife at all.  To me, eternity is the most important thing we need to consider.  This life is very short.  Each day I wake up well aware that it could be my last day on earth.  I try to live my life with that in mind.

If I don't believe in an afterlife, why would I spend any time thinking about it or caring about it. YOU believe in an afterlife. That's your belief.

If I believed in the Flying Spaghetti Monster as my god, and all his teachings, I'd be trying to convince you to also believe in him because it would be the only way to salvation. You would look at me the same way I am looking at you. Why would I care about the Flying Spaghetti Monster afterlife, that's obviously not true. That's how I view your version of the afterlife. It's not true to you. It's true to me. What's true to you is not to me. Neither of us can prove the other wrong. I'm not asking you to change your beliefs, just asking you don't force them on people who don't want to live by the rules of your religion.

Your beliefs are not more important or more correct than someone else's. You don't have a right to force other people to act the way you want them to. That's my most important point in this thread. I'm fine with Christians and Muslims and Jews or any other religion that wants to believe anything they want, so long as they don't try to make anyone else live a life subject to their religious rules who doesn't want to.

Of course I can't force anyone to believe what they don't want to.  I totally get that. But the question seems to be more about "absolute truth" more than anything.

So you are saying that you would rather live life with a carefree attitude and if you die and realize only at that point that there is indeed a God and that there is Heaven and Hell and that you are sent to Hell because you chose to a) ignore warnings b) didn't want to believe in God c) didn't think religious rules were cool d) didn't have time to worry about it (and so on) then you will be fine with God saying "depart from me, I never knew you" and then you will suffer for eternity?

Just trying to make sure.  Again, just because you don't believe something isn't true, doesn't make it untrue.  I can close my eyes while it is raining and say, "I don't like rain.  I don't believe in rain.  Rain doesn't exist" but I will still be pelted with raindrops.  The same thing goes for the laws God has made.  When you die and stand before God I would just be concerned that your reasoning of "I didn't believe You were real" won't be a good enough excuse to give you a "free pass" into Heaven.

Edit:  I and I very much chose to believe in God!  I had many reasons to be ticked at Him. I saw hypocrisy in the church and wanted nothing to do with the church.  But God, out of His amazing love for me, met me in a very supernatural way.  I have never been the same and I never will.  Call it stubborn, call me crazy.  I believe in Him to the core of my being.

[cooldgamer]

So all that said, you believe we can choose our own God, or not choose God.  There is no absolute truth, we just decide our own truth and because of that I can believe whatever I want and so can you and the goal is just to live a good and decent life for the most part?

Yes, that's the same thing you're doing, I just don't have a magic book to back it up. With the exception of "choosing" what to believe? Did you choose to believe in god? Probably not, you just do because that's what you believe. I'm the same way. I didn't choose not to believe in god. I just don't because that's what I believe.

I guess the thing that shocks me the most is that people really don't care about life after death.  They are not concerned about the afterlife at all.  To me, eternity is the most important thing we need to consider.  This life is very short.  Each day I wake up well aware that it could be my last day on earth.  I try to live my life with that in mind.

If I don't believe in an afterlife, why would I spend any time thinking about it or caring about it. YOU believe in an afterlife. That's your belief.

If I believed in the Flying Spaghetti Monster as my god, and all his teachings, I'd be trying to convince you to also believe in him because it would be the only way to salvation. You would look at me the same way I am looking at you. Why would I care about the Flying Spaghetti Monster afterlife, that's obviously not true. That's how I view your version of the afterlife. It's not true to you. It's true to me. What's true to you is not to me. Neither of us can prove the other wrong. I'm not asking you to change your beliefs, just asking you don't force them on people who don't want to live by the rules of your religion.

Your beliefs are not more important or more correct than someone else's. You don't have a right to force other people to act the way you want them to. That's my most important point in this thread. I'm fine with Christians and Muslims and Jews or any other religion that wants to believe anything they want, so long as they don't try to make anyone else live a life subject to their religious rules who doesn't want to.

Of course I can't force anyone to believe what they don't want to.  I totally get that. But the question seems to be more about "absolute truth" more than anything.

So you are saying that you would rather live life with a carefree attitude and if you die and realize only at that point that there is indeed a  God and that there is Heaven and Hell and that you are sent to Hell because you chose to a) ignore warnings b) didn't want to believe in God c) didn't think religious rules were cool d) didn't have time to worry about it (and so on) then you will be fine with God saying "depart from me, I never knew you" and then you will suffer for eternity?

Just trying to make sure.  Again, just because you don't believe something isn't true, doesn't make it untrue.  I can close my eyes while it is raining and say, "I don't like rain.  I don't believe in rain.  Rain doesn't exist" but I will still be pelted with raindrops.  The same thing goes for the laws God has made.  When you die and stand before God I would just be concerned that your reasoning of "I didn't believe You were real" won't be a good enough excuse to give you a free pass.

Pascal's wager, of the hundreds of religions/mythologies that have/will exist, we're supposed to believe that christianity is the right one.  I'd rather go through living the life I know I have to the best then spend it worshiping something that there is no proof of existing for a 1 in 100+ chance of having a kickass afterlife

Your god is an egotistical psychopath by the way if he sends you to burn for eternity for not believing in him when he refused to prove himself

[BitChick]

So all that said, you believe we can choose our own God, or not choose God.  There is no absolute truth, we just decide our own truth and because of that I can believe whatever I want and so can you and the goal is just to live a good and decent life for the most part?

Yes, that's the same thing you're doing, I just don't have a magic book to back it up. With the exception of "choosing" what to believe? Did you choose to believe in god? Probably not, you just do because that's what you believe. I'm the same way. I didn't choose not to believe in god. I just don't because that's what I believe.

I guess the thing that shocks me the most is that people really don't care about life after death.  They are not concerned about the afterlife at all.  To me, eternity is the most important thing we need to consider.  This life is very short.  Each day I wake up well aware that it could be my last day on earth.  I try to live my life with that in mind.

If I don't believe in an afterlife, why would I spend any time thinking about it or caring about it. YOU believe in an afterlife. That's your belief.

If I believed in the Flying Spaghetti Monster as my god, and all his teachings, I'd be trying to convince you to also believe in him because it would be the only way to salvation. You would look at me the same way I am looking at you. Why would I care about the Flying Spaghetti Monster afterlife, that's obviously not true. That's how I view your version of the afterlife. It's not true to you. It's true to me. What's true to you is not to me. Neither of us can prove the other wrong. I'm not asking you to change your beliefs, just asking you don't force them on people who don't want to live by the rules of your religion.

Your beliefs are not more important or more correct than someone else's. You don't have a right to force other people to act the way you want them to. That's my most important point in this thread. I'm fine with Christians and Muslims and Jews or any other religion that wants to believe anything they want, so long as they don't try to make anyone else live a life subject to their religious rules who doesn't want to.

Of course I can't force anyone to believe what they don't want to.  I totally get that. But the question seems to be more about "absolute truth" more than anything.

So you are saying that you would rather live life with a carefree attitude and if you die and realize only at that point that there is indeed a  God and that there is Heaven and Hell and that you are sent to Hell because you chose to a) ignore warnings b) didn't want to believe in God c) didn't think religious rules were cool d) didn't have time to worry about it (and so on) then you will be fine with God saying "depart from me, I never knew you" and then you will suffer for eternity?

Just trying to make sure.  Again, just because you don't believe something isn't true, doesn't make it untrue.  I can close my eyes while it is raining and say, "I don't like rain.  I don't believe in rain.  Rain doesn't exist" but I will still be pelted with raindrops.  The same thing goes for the laws God has made.  When you die and stand before God I would just be concerned that your reasoning of "I didn't believe You were real" won't be a good enough excuse to give you a free pass.

Pascal's wager, of the hundreds of religions/mythologies that have/will exist, we're supposed to believe that christianity is the right one.  I'd rather go through living the life I know I have to the best then spend it worshiping something that there is no proof of existing for a 1 in 100+ chance of having a kickass afterlife

Your god is an egotistical psychopath by the way if he sends you to burn for eternity for not believing in him when he refused to prove himself

Then you will have your wish.  You will be separated from Him for eternity.  He respects your wishes.  

As for God refusing to prove Himself.  Have you asked Him to?  That is a prayer He usually answers from what I have observed.

God gives everything that is good in this life.  God is love, joy, peace and every good and perfect gift comes from Him.  Even sex is a gift from God (misused and abused often).  Even wealth is a blessing from God (also misused).  The things that are not from God are hate, death, sickness, murder, basically all sin. These things came when sin entered the world.  Eternity without God is a world without love, joy, peace, kindness.  Personally, I am forever grateful that God loved me enough to give me not only good gifts on this earth but a hope of heaven even though I don't deserve it (and no one deserves heaven because we have all sinned and fallen short of God's laws).  

[My Name Was Taken]

Of course I can't force anyone to believe what they don't want to.  I totally get that. But the question seems to be more about "absolute truth" more than anything.

Your 'absolute truth' is subjective. "Absolute truth" as a universal constant is not knowable.

So you are saying that you would rather live life with a carefree attitude and if you die and realize only at that point that there is indeed a God and that there is Heaven and Hell and that you are sent to Hell because you chose to a) ignore warnings b) didn't want to believe in God c) didn't think religious rules were cool d) didn't have time to worry about it (and so on) then you will be fine with God saying "depart from me, I never knew you" and then you will suffer for eternity?

You're putting words in my mouth. Who says I have a carefree attitude? I care for other people the same as I would if I were religious. I just don't feel a need to compel them to believe what I believe. I won't respond to anything concerning heaven and hell and "what ifs" because those don't exist.

Again, just because you don't believe something isn't true, doesn't make it untrue.

Just because you believe something is true doesn't make it true.

I can close my eyes while it is raining and say, "I don't like rain.  I don't believe in rain.  Rain doesn't exist" but I will still be pelted with raindrops.  The same thing goes for the laws God has made.  When you die and stand before God I would just be concerned that your reasoning of "I didn't believe You were real" won't be a good enough excuse to give you a "free pass" into Heaven.

If you're getting wet, it doesn't matter what you say. You believe what is happening to you based on your observations. You can't convince yourself it's not raining when it is anymore you can convince me there is a god when there isn't. (See, I'm now dropping the pretense and responding with the same conviction in my truths as you are.)

and I very much chose to believe in God!  I had many reasons to be ticked at Him. I saw hypocrisy in the church and wanted nothing to do with the church.  But God, out of His amazing love for me, met me in a very supernatural way.  I have never been the same and I never will.  Call it stubborn, call me crazy.  I believe in Him to the core of my being.

You don't choose to believe. You choose to accept him as your god, but you don't choose to believe he exists for the same reason you don't believe it's not raining when it is. You can deny it's raining just as you can deny your god as your savior, but you can't force yourself to believe something you don't believe. You believe what you believe based on your life experiences. So you believe in your god, but you choose to accept him for all the reasons you've already stated about eternal punishment and so on. You have to accept him as your savior, otherwise you know you will be punished for all eternity, because that's what the church has taught you. That's your absolute truth, even though I know it's wrong.

[BitChick]

Of course I can't force anyone to believe what they don't want to.  I totally get that. But the question seems to be more about "absolute truth" more than anything.

Your 'absolute truth' is subjective. "Absolute truth" as a universal constant is not knowable.

So you are saying that you would rather live life with a carefree attitude and if you die and realize only at that point that there is indeed a God and that there is Heaven and Hell and that you are sent to Hell because you chose to a) ignore warnings b) didn't want to believe in God c) didn't think religious rules were cool d) didn't have time to worry about it (and so on) then you will be fine with God saying "depart from me, I never knew you" and then you will suffer for eternity?

You're putting words in my mouth. Who says I have a carefree attitude? I care for other people the same as I would if I were religious. I just don't feel a need to compel them to believe what I believe. I won't respond to anything concerning heaven and hell and "what ifs" because those don't exist.

Again, just because you don't believe something isn't true, doesn't make it untrue.

Just because you believe something is true doesn't make it true.

 I can close my eyes while it is raining and say, "I don't like rain.  I don't believe in rain.  Rain doesn't exist" but I will still be pelted with raindrops.  The same thing goes for the laws God has made.  When you die and stand before God I would just be concerned that your reasoning of "I didn't believe You were real" won't be a good enough excuse to give you a "free pass" into Heaven.

If you're getting wet, it doesn't matter what you say. You believe what is happening to you based on your observations. You can't convince yourself it's not raining when it is anymore you can convince me there is a god when there isn't. (See, I'm now dropping the pretense and responding with the same truths you are.)

and I very much chose to believe in God!  I had many reasons to be ticked at Him. I saw hypocrisy in the church and wanted nothing to do with the church.  But God, out of His amazing love for me, met me in a very supernatural way.  I have never been the same and I never will.  Call it stubborn, call me crazy.  I believe in Him to the core of my being.

You don't choose to believe. You choose to accept him as your god, but you don't choose to believe he exists for the same reason you don't believe it's not raining when it is. You can deny it's raining just as you can deny your god as your savior, but you can't force yourself to believe something you don't believe. You believe what you believe based on your life experiences. So you believe in your god, but you choose to accept him for all the reasons you've already stated about eternal punishment and so on. You have to accept him as your savior, otherwise you know you will be punished for all eternity, because that's what the church has taught you. That's your absolute truth, even though I know it's wrong.

You are as sure I am wrong as I am sure that I am right. 

I am not really trying to fight about who is right or wrong, but just encourage you to reflect that perhaps you are making a very serious decision, one with eternal consequences. 

[BADecker]

The fact that you believe this life is all there is a very sad and depressing thought.

Herein lies the truth. Religious folk simply can't accept that this is their one and only life.

There is absolutely nothing in evolution theory that suggests a way that the diversity and complexity in nature could have happened.

In the face of the laws of probability along with the apparent entropy we see all around, evolution is an absolute impossibility.

In fact, the continual political-like hollering of atheists and others is the only thing that keeps the idea of evolution alive.

With the creation of the Internet, as people come to realize the truth that evolution is impossible, even the hollering will soon die.

It's actually quite simple really. A change in environment causes evolutionary changes in species in an attempt to adapt better to said environment. If there was no diversity in environments then perhaps your statement may have a chance to hold true. Then again maybe you're right and god just made different races of people to give us another reason to go to hell for being racist. Yeah, that makes more sense.  

Oh, now don't start getting upset (unless you really want to, that is).

No matter how you look at it, diversity, combined with probability, combined with entropy, entirely disallows any form of evolution we can dream up, not just as some kind of improbability, but rather as an absolute impossibility.

Do the math. Then look somewhere else. Evolution is (and always has been, really) dead. The fact that it is written in the books will make it take a long time before its death is apparent.



EDIT: I should have added universe complexity in there.

LOL! I'm not mad. Are you? Obviously, I don't take these "debates" seriously, since I find your arguments to be quite flawed. I find it mildly entertaining at best.

I'm pretty sure Einstein had religious people in mind when he said, “A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. So is a lot.” The "little" being what they know of science and reality, the "a lot" being what they assume of god.

Unfortunately, "a little knowledge" is what the scientific community has, with regard to what there is to know. They will admit this themselves if you ask them. I say "unfortunately" because I, too, am a scientist at heart, and would like to see real results.

Modern science simply doesn't have enough information to determine either the age of the earth/universe, or that evolution does really exist (I'm talking about basic evolution here... the beginnings of life). So far, everything that has been discovered can be attributed to other things besides that commonly held scientific understandings of the age of universe and evolution. Many of the findings while seeming to be evidence of these, are also evidence of the exact opposite - no evolution and short age of the universe.

The reason for the modern, wide spread evolution theme lies in publishing done by people and groups who would like to see certain things happen in a political way. They are hiding the fact of the scientific "if" while promoting the "if" research as fact or near fact. And, unfortunately, they are having an effect of moving populations into believing something that is just not true... at least not proven true.

Then there are the people who are hired by the above mentioned, political movers, to cloud the fact of the "if." Whenever someone brings up clear, logical points - like combining universe complexity, probability, and real entropy, or like the fact of the "if" itself - they simply talk it down, whitewash it over, so that clear thinking remains hidden as much as possible.

Well, I suppose doing this political propagandizing is easier - and probably more profitable - than actually thinking, or getting out there and doing some research.

[nsimmons]

On the contrary, we think this is the only chance we have so why would we want to screw it up?

Q.E.D.

[acs267]

So all that said, you believe we can choose our own God, or not choose God.  There is no absolute truth, we just decide our own truth and because of that I can believe whatever I want and so can you and the goal is just to live a good and decent life for the most part?

Yes, that's the same thing you're doing, I just don't have a magic book to back it up. With the exception of "choosing" what to believe? Did you choose to believe in god? Probably not, you just do because that's what you believe. I'm the same way. I didn't choose not to believe in god. I just don't because that's what I believe.

I guess the thing that shocks me the most is that people really don't care about life after death.  They are not concerned about the afterlife at all.  To me, eternity is the most important thing we need to consider.  This life is very short.  Each day I wake up well aware that it could be my last day on earth.  I try to live my life with that in mind.

If I don't believe in an afterlife, why would I spend any time thinking about it or caring about it. YOU believe in an afterlife. That's your belief.

If I believed in the Flying Spaghetti Monster as my god, and all his teachings, I'd be trying to convince you to also believe in him because it would be the only way to salvation. You would look at me the same way I am looking at you. Why would I care about the Flying Spaghetti Monster afterlife, that's obviously not true. That's how I view your version of the afterlife. It's not true to you. It's true to me. What's true to you is not to me. Neither of us can prove the other wrong. I'm not asking you to change your beliefs, just asking you don't force them on people who don't want to live by the rules of your religion.

Your beliefs are not more important or more correct than someone else's. You don't have a right to force other people to act the way you want them to. That's my most important point in this thread. I'm fine with Christians and Muslims and Jews or any other religion that wants to believe anything they want, so long as they don't try to make anyone else live a life subject to their religious rules who doesn't want to.

Of course I can't force anyone to believe what they don't want to.  I totally get that. But the question seems to be more about "absolute truth" more than anything.

So you are saying that you would rather live life with a carefree attitude and if you die and realize only at that point that there is indeed a  God and that there is Heaven and Hell and that you are sent to Hell because you chose to a) ignore warnings b) didn't want to believe in God c) didn't think religious rules were cool d) didn't have time to worry about it (and so on) then you will be fine with God saying "depart from me, I never knew you" and then you will suffer for eternity?

Just trying to make sure.  Again, just because you don't believe something isn't true, doesn't make it untrue.  I can close my eyes while it is raining and say, "I don't like rain.  I don't believe in rain.  Rain doesn't exist" but I will still be pelted with raindrops.  The same thing goes for the laws God has made.  When you die and stand before God I would just be concerned that your reasoning of "I didn't believe You were real" won't be a good enough excuse to give you a free pass.

Pascal's wager, of the hundreds of religions/mythologies that have/will exist, we're supposed to believe that christianity is the right one.  I'd rather go through living the life I know I have to the best then spend it worshiping something that there is no proof of existing for a 1 in 100+ chance of having a kickass afterlife

Your god is an egotistical psychopath by the way if he sends you to burn for eternity for not believing in him when he refused to prove himself

Then you will have your wish.  You will be separated from Him for eternity.  He respects your wishes.  

As for God refusing to prove Himself.  Have you asked Him to?  That is a prayer He usually answers from what I have observed.

God gives everything that is good in this life.  God is love, joy, peace and every good and perfect gift comes from Him.  Even sex is a gift from God (misused and abused often).  Even wealth is a blessing from God (also misused).  The things that are not from God are hate, death, sickness, murder, basically all sin. These things came when sin entered the world.  Eternity without God is a world without love, joy, peace, kindness.  Personally, I am forever grateful that God loved me enough to give me not only good gifts on this earth but a hope of heaven even though I don't deserve it (and no one deserves heaven because we have all sinned and fallen short of God's laws).  

Then why did God flood the Earth, and, kick Adam and Eve out of Eden if he knew it'd only bring an chaotic future? Go ahead, try and back this up. 

God wouldn't have flooded the Earth, and, wouldn't allow for his gifts to be abused. As someone previously stated... How do you know that Christianity is the right way? There are many books like the Bible, how do you know that Christianity is the religion God wants you to be in, and, not any of the others?

[nsimmons]

So all that said, you believe we can choose our own God, or not choose God.  There is no absolute truth, we just decide our own truth and because of that I can believe whatever I want and so can you and the goal is just to live a good and decent life for the most part?

Yes, that's the same thing you're doing, I just don't have a magic book to back it up. With the exception of "choosing" what to believe? Did you choose to believe in god? Probably not, you just do because that's what you believe. I'm the same way. I didn't choose not to believe in god. I just don't because that's what I believe.

I guess the thing that shocks me the most is that people really don't care about life after death.  They are not concerned about the afterlife at all.  To me, eternity is the most important thing we need to consider.  This life is very short.  Each day I wake up well aware that it could be my last day on earth.  I try to live my life with that in mind.

If I don't believe in an afterlife, why would I spend any time thinking about it or caring about it. YOU believe in an afterlife. That's your belief.

If I believed in the Flying Spaghetti Monster as my god, and all his teachings, I'd be trying to convince you to also believe in him because it would be the only way to salvation. You would look at me the same way I am looking at you. Why would I care about the Flying Spaghetti Monster afterlife, that's obviously not true. That's how I view your version of the afterlife. It's not true to you. It's true to me. What's true to you is not to me. Neither of us can prove the other wrong. I'm not asking you to change your beliefs, just asking you don't force them on people who don't want to live by the rules of your religion.

Your beliefs are not more important or more correct than someone else's. You don't have a right to force other people to act the way you want them to. That's my most important point in this thread. I'm fine with Christians and Muslims and Jews or any other religion that wants to believe anything they want, so long as they don't try to make anyone else live a life subject to their religious rules who doesn't want to.

Of course I can't force anyone to believe what they don't want to.  I totally get that. But the question seems to be more about "absolute truth" more than anything.

So you are saying that you would rather live life with a carefree attitude and if you die and realize only at that point that there is indeed a  God and that there is Heaven and Hell and that you are sent to Hell because you chose to a) ignore warnings b) didn't want to believe in God c) didn't think religious rules were cool d) didn't have time to worry about it (and so on) then you will be fine with God saying "depart from me, I never knew you" and then you will suffer for eternity?

Just trying to make sure.  Again, just because you don't believe something isn't true, doesn't make it untrue.  I can close my eyes while it is raining and say, "I don't like rain.  I don't believe in rain.  Rain doesn't exist" but I will still be pelted with raindrops.  The same thing goes for the laws God has made.  When you die and stand before God I would just be concerned that your reasoning of "I didn't believe You were real" won't be a good enough excuse to give you a free pass.

Pascal's wager, of the hundreds of religions/mythologies that have/will exist, we're supposed to believe that christianity is the right one.  I'd rather go through living the life I know I have to the best then spend it worshiping something that there is no proof of existing for a 1 in 100+ chance of having a kickass afterlife

Your god is an egotistical psychopath by the way if he sends you to burn for eternity for not believing in him when he refused to prove himself

Then you will have your wish.  You will be separated from Him for eternity.  He respects your wishes.  

As for God refusing to prove Himself.  Have you asked Him to?  That is a prayer He usually answers from what I have observed.

God gives everything that is good in this life.  God is love, joy, peace and every good and perfect gift comes from Him.  Even sex is a gift from God (misused and abused often).  Even wealth is a blessing from God (also misused).  The things that are not from God are hate, death, sickness, murder, basically all sin. These things came when sin entered the world.  Eternity without God is a world without love, joy, peace, kindness.  Personally, I am forever grateful that God loved me enough to give me not only good gifts on this earth but a hope of heaven even though I don't deserve it (and no one deserves heaven because we have all sinned and fallen short of God's laws).  

If you actually knew your religion you would know that hell and Satan are more modern contrivances added during the first millennia and then propagated via selective translation. If you study even further you would see that your theology borrows heavily from the greek theogony, and futher back  babylonian and eventually sumerian.

Complete will all the fantasies such as the virgin birth, flood mythos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytheism#Historical_polytheism

Hellenistic religion may still be regarded as polytheistic, but with strong monistic components, and monotheism finally emerges from Hellenistic traditions in Late Antiquity in the form of Neoplatonism and Christian theology.

You could even say Christianity evolved



You also didn't address any of my physics questions. You claim you don't know everything, does that imply you know nothing? Cutting and pasting links is not knowledge.

I am not only well versed in the physical sciences, but I am also well versed in mythology, philosophy and ancient religions all to a much greater extent than you appear to be.

Address my questions or admit complete ignorance.

[Cortex7]

Yes religions evolve, memetic evolution as opposed to genetic.

Any yes, most religious people know nothing of the history of religion, let alone science, mentally lazy I guess.

The name Jesus (yaweh) was selected as a new deity fairly recently from a pantheon of gods, Yaweh is the mountain god of WAR, urghhh how uncooth and barbaric. Before being named Jesus however he was a vegetation god, tied to the start of the new growing season, a bit nicer. But modern Christians choose to acknowledge a Hebrew construct, ho hum.

[the joint]

Please talk to a psychiatrist, you seem to have very severe depression if you hate living on this planet.  Not even being Sarcastic.

Back to the topic, the science of evolution is based on observation.  We have made organisms evolve in a lab right before our eyes.  Dog breeding works the same except with humans deciding which traits to keep instead of nature.  We can observe our common ancestors by looking at the body compared to other primates.  While the fossil record is not complete, what we have so far points to evolution.  

I don't believe in spiderman because there are fans of his enemies, that is pretty much the logic you're going on for saying satanism proves it.  Same with saying gods word proves it, says so right there in the comic that he is real!

I love the beauty of God's creation that I see all around me.  I love the people that I am thankful to have relationships with.  I love the people that speak with on these boards, even if they hate me and say I need a psychiatrist.

But I also see the misery of life and the hate (due to Satan's influence) that causes people to kill, steal and destroy.  There is evil all around us.  You must be marvelously blessed to have avoided the sufferings that are common to man?  Seriously.  We all deal with death, pain, sickness and so on.  This is not how God intended for us to live.  It is part of the fact we live in a fallen and not perfect world, one that eventually He will make right again.  

Dog breeding produces dogs right?  Has anyone bred a dog to become a cat?  Until I can see changes from one kind into another kind I will not believe in evolution.  There have been adaptations but these adaptations are not proof of evolution from one kind into another.  We as humans have more in common with dogs than apes so looking at the physical bodies to make comparisons is not enough.

You don't have to agree with me.   You don't have to believe in God.  That is the amazing thing about "free will."  I am just trying to encourage a few people on here to think about the risks of not believing.  If something is true then it doesn't matter if I believe it or you believe it or if any of us believes it.  If God's word is true then we will all be accountable to it.  

My point about "satanism" was just an interesting fact.  There is no other religion that has an "anti-religion" formed to fight it.  It was not proof by any means. I just figured it was an interesting thought that should at least cause us to pause and think for a minute.

You pretty much just admitted that evolution exists.  Macro evolution (changing species) is nothing more than micro evolution (changing traits) over a long period of time, to the point that one is not able to breed with another, and you have a new species just like that.  Think about domesticated dogs vs wolves and how different they are.  Over time they will become more and more different, to the point that they are no longer able to mate (this would be if they were in the wild, doesn't really apply since pets aren't going to be subjected to survival of the fittest but irrelevant to the example).  At this point you have a new species.  

For the record I don't hate you, you really did sound depressed

Macro and Micro evolution are very different!  We have not seen evidence of macro evolution (changes of a fish to a dog for example).  The solution that evolutionary scientists give is just to throw "millions of years" into the equation so that they can rationalize that it took that long to happen. (still not long enough)  If the changes that occur cause differences that make it so the species cannot mate isn't that an evolutionary problem in itself?  Creationists completely agree with "micro evolution" because it is simply adaptations or changing of traits within a species.  It is such a huge jump from changes within a species to changes outside of a species though, one that has no fossil record or evidence to support whatsoever.

You are completely wrong.  The process of a new species being formed is (using the wolf example)

Due to something, wolves are separated into A and B and unable to reach eachother.  Group B is in a different climate than group A

Both groups breed over a long period of time and evolution makes them adapt to their surroundings

Over a long enough period, the changes are so great that if group A and B met, their different features would make them unable to mate.  This could be from different mating periods/rituals, physical changes, etc



The dog and wolf example wasn't the best as I forgot to throw isolation in there, but same basic idea.

This response provides an alternative view to the typically-proposed false dichotomy of Evolution vs. God:

I've always been fascinated by interpretations of data associated with evolution.  Accordingly, I have two main points I'd like to add, one of which focuses on the data itself, and the other focuses on a priori philosophical knowledge, i.e. knowledge that is evident independent of any evidence.  An example of such knowledge is the law of identity, i.e. x = x.  Because of this knowledge, we know right off the bat that we don't need to go searching for something that is not itself because we know a priori that it's a logical impossibility.

1) In consideration of the overwhelming body of evidence collected in support of Modern Evolutionary Theory, I'd like to point out that there exists other, equally-plausible interpretations of the same data set that lead to different theoretical conclusions.   For example, it is valid to conclude that the data suggest that the evolution of conscious states leads to evolved physical states; in contrast, modern evolutionary theory concludes that evolved physical states lead to evolved conscious states.

These are what we call "mathematically uncertain" theories because it is uncertain which theory is 'more correct.'  Mathematically uncertain theories are constantly overlooked as the vast majority of people -- even those with advanced educations -- lack the awareness that mathematically uncertain theories exist.  To this end, we must either find new evidence to help distinguish between multiple equally-valid theories, or find flaws in either our methodology for interpreting and explaining the data.  This brings me to my second point...

2) As mentioned previously, a priori knowledge -- which is real and should not be outright discredited because it does not rely on empirical observation -- helps us to know certain things in advance so that we don't waste our time exploring ideas that are logically impossible.  If it weren't for this sort of knowledge, it would be impossible to devise the scientific method in the first place.  Right from the get go, science carries certain assumptions based upon a priori knowledge. A fundamental example would be the knowledge that observation must be the basis for any and all empirical study; we did not need any empirical study or evidence to reach this conclusion.

Accordingly, we can look to see what types of a priori knowledge might be useful in helping to guide our interpretation of the evolutionary data set.  In my opinion, one of the most fundamental logical principles is the sameness-in-difference principle, which simply put is the idea that differences necessarily arise from similarities.  Put in more complex terms, it means that any two relational entities A and B must share a common, relational medium.  Therefore, it is impossible for any entity to be absolutely different from any other; to state that A and B are absolutely different is to reinforce their similarities by binding them together such that, at the very least, they share a common medium of absolute difference .  If two things actually could be absolutely different from each other, then it would be impossible talk about them in the same sentence.  Descartes, though obviously an intelligent fellow, overlooked this error when proposing his idea of Cartesian Dualism.  He attempted to place an insurmountable barrier between physical and mental reality, thereby violating the sameness-in-difference principle of logic.  Science abides by this split since it assumes a Positivistic Universe does not, will not, and can never be influenced by observation itself to any significant degree.  

The implications of such a principle are vast as they speak to the core nature of all entities. Perhaps most notably, it points to a shared relationship between mental and physical reality.  This is important because it allows room for talk about things such as Universal Consciousness (God?) and an inherently meaningful Universe.  

I'd also point out that there is a case to be made for a Universe that relies more on the abstract rather than the physical.  Observation by itself employs a metric (a standard of measurement) which allows us to distinguish between the things we want to study and examine through empiricism.  Without this metric, it would be impossible to define *any*thing.  Scientists talk about the Universe as if it could be described if all conscious agents were removed from it.  Unfortunately, they forget that without any conscious agents it would be impossible to define the Universe and all entities contained therein.  Accordingly, anybody who tries to tell you anything about what the Universe would or could be like if all conscious agents were removed is wasting their time; it's simply impossible to say *any*thing about such a Universe.