Scientific proof that God exists?

[BADecker]

God told us how to act - one simple rule in the Garden - don't eat the one kind of fruit. We listened to the devil - a formerly good angel who corrupted himself - and caused our own destruction by eating the fruit.

Why would god create something (the fruit of knowledge) only to deny us it? Why would god create an angel only to cast it into hell? This is insane, at the very least sadistic.

The simple answer is, without freedom to choose something that was not allowed, man could not be nearly as great of a being as God had in mind for him.

So, are you going to continue to fight God, and deny yourself, along with denying the true greatness that you could be? Or are you going to change, and choose to not resist God like those who ate the fruit in the Garden and became corrupted within themselves? Are you now going to finally choose to be on God's side, with Him in greatness or not? Your call. But like the two in the Garden, the choice is still yours.

[1715132312]

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[cooldgamer]

Cooldgamer,

I know your comments are directed to BADecker, but if you don't mind I will share a few thoughts. (And if you do mind you can just ingore me. )

Blind faith?  I guess you can can see it that way.  What is really strange, and even supernatural if you will, is that the Bible says that God will "Open the eyes of the blind."  In a way a person cannot see things spiritually until this happens.  Many people have said that the Bible made no sense to them until they accepted Christ and then it was like they could "see" things that they never saw before.  There have been times in my life where I have "seen" sins that a person is struggling with with the sole purpose of just praying for that person.  I have "seen" visions.  I have "seen"  several people that I recognized were demon possessed just by feeling their presence in the room and then looked that direction and saw that they "saw" me too!  A bit creepy but at the same time it just proved to me that I can "see" things in a spiritual way that many cannot.  The Bible is even said to be "foolish" to those that do not have the eyes to see.  Instead of judging others for not seeing I should be saying that I would not expect anything less.

The placebo effect is a powerful thing.  A good analogy is those powerbalance wristbands that say their holograms will make you have better posture, better at sports, etc.  They actually are nothing but a piece of foil and some rubber, but the people wearing them believe in it so much that their brains make it true.  I'm not sure what you mean by they "saw" you too, but 2 people looking at eachother proves nothing supernatural.

There are some things in science that are 100% fact.  Evolution has not been proven as 100% fact.  It is taught that way now.  This is a huge problem with the scientific community today.

It is hard for me to grasp how something as complex as a human cell could be thought to happen by chance and knowing the complexity of even a single celled organisms structure and ability to work could have just happened from nothing.  The odds of even a single cell evolving are beyond belief and could even be said to be mathematically impossible. Order does not come from chaos.  This is impossible and has not been observed.  It seems that the desire to prove evolution no matter what the evidence shows has blinded most from what I can see.  

I didn't say evolution is 100% fact (at least as to where we came from), I was refuting the claim that we know nothing 100%.  Some piece of evidence could come along that completely disproves us coming from evolution, but until then the mountains of evidence we have for it completely blows away any other ideas.  We can never say for 100% certainty because we weren't there to observe it, but we're pretty damn close (and finding more and more things to support it every day).

However, we do know for a fact that species do evolve.  We have made bacteria in labs evolve right before our eyes to use a new food source that they were never able to before (Source)

The odds of us evolving the way we did are pretty irrelevant, as with how large our universe is there are so many places that it could have happened.  If you believe in the big bang/big crunch theory then there could have been a bunch of times that no life was formed and the universe was empty, but we weren't there to comment on it those times, only the ones something did happen.  As for the no order from chaos, I urge you to watch This video, as it does a much better and more in-depth job of explaining it than I ever could.  I don't understand what you mean by 'no matter what the evidence shows', as all the evidence we've found so far supports evolution.

Morality should not be based solely on societal norms.  Throughout history there have been things that society says is "OK" that changes based on whatever the culture decides is good or bad (for instance, right now our culture is fine with abortion and under God's law that is murder for example)  God has given us His laws and these laws are the standards in which we should judge ourselves by.  If we have even broken one of His commandments then we are held guilty under those laws and will need to pay the price for breaking those laws.  The penalty is eternal punishment.  However, God out of His great love and mercy has given us the option of repenting and He even paid the price for our sins (Jesus' death on a cross then resurrection) if we are willing to accept that free gift.  However, many do not even think that they need a savior.  

Well I personally am fine with abortion, and there really is no way to judge whose idea is right or wrong unless we're going by the bible.  The eternal hell isn't a valid argument, just trying to scare people into believing.  I don't need a savior, doing just fine, thanks

I guess the thing that I would mention, in regards to your point that the Bible is not true or it is just our "truth" is the question of why are so many people hostile to it?  If it wasn't so revolutionary why is it still banned in so many places?  Why has the Bible changed people's lives so much?  Why have people been willing to give up their lives for the "truth" in it, especially if it was not important?  Sure there are other religions that people give their lives for willingly, however, the one thing that separates Christianity from all other religions is that Christianity is the only religion that is not about earning our way to God.  In fact, it is all about realizing that there is no possible way to earn salvation at all.  It is about realizing that we are in need of help.  It takes humility and an open heart that prays and ask God to forgive us and "open our eyes" if you will to see things from God's perspective.  Then God, out of His great love, comes in and helps us to see not only ourselves, but others in a different way.  He helps us to love ourselves and others. He helps us to forgive, have joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, self-control.  He give us the gift of His Spirit in our hearts and then we are able to do good things because of His love, not because we are trying to "earn" our salvation but because we are so thankful for what He has done for us.  

People are hostile to any religion other than their's in a lot of cases, or a specific religion because of the one they believe in, culture, etc.  In some places any religion except for the one of the state is banned, so does that mean every religion is valid?  The bible has changed people because they read it and thought they could be changed, coming back to the placebo effect.

[BADecker]

Well I personally am fine with abortion, and there really is no way to judge whose idea is right or wrong unless we're going by the bible.  The eternal hell isn't a valid argument, just trying to scare people into believing.  I don't need a savior, doing just fine, thanks

Have a little mercy. Look at all the fun you have had in your life. And you want to allow others to deny that to still others? Have a little mercy.



EDIT: You don't need a savior? Does this mean that you know for a fact that you are going to live forever without one?

[cooldgamer]

Well I personally am fine with abortion, and there really is no way to judge whose idea is right or wrong unless we're going by the bible.  The eternal hell isn't a valid argument, just trying to scare people into believing.  I don't need a savior, doing just fine, thanks

Have a little mercy. Look at all the fun you have had in your life. And you want to allow others to deny that to still others? Have a little mercy.



EDIT: You don't need a savior? Does this mean that you know for a fact that you are going to live forever without one?

Until the fetus is able to sense things it's just the same as having never been created IMO.  No woman should be forced to give birth to something that she doesn't want.  It could have been from rape, a broken condom, or she just thought she was prepared but backed out at the last second.  I think we should value the life of a human more than a clump of cells that can't feel anything.  Even when it can feel, it does not have a right to life until it is able to live on it's own.  It's like a vampire that you're letting consensually suck your blood, if you want it to stop then you have a right to make it stop.  I don't support abortion, I support the right of a woman to choose what is right for her body and life.  That being said, if you're going to abort then it should be done before it can sense, that's just the right thing to do, but shit happens  (flaming in 3... 2... 1...)

I don't think I'm going to live forever without one, I think I'm going to be dead after that final burst of DMT wears off and my brain is inactive.  Same as before I was born.

[(oYo)]

Of course I am not a fan of pain and suffering either, who is really?  But my question then is why would God then choose to suffer with us?  He did not have to do that either.  It becomes more a question of trusting Him in spite of the pain and suffering we are enduring during our short time here on earth and allowing Him to use that pain.  Diamonds can't shine unless they have been polished.  Flowers can't grow unless they have had rain.  We all have long roads and long journeys in our lives but God can help us see that there can be treasures hidden in the painful things we go through, if we just let him use those things!  I like to say that the greatest treasure in my life came through pain and suffering,  the pain and suffering Jesus endured on the cross for me.
 
Also, there is something miraculous in how God is able to use our suffering for good.  In fact, He even promises to "work out all things for the good of those called according to His purpose."  Regardless of how much I dislike pain and suffering, I trust that God has a plan and He does promise that He will wipe "all tears from our eyes" someday.

Your diamond and flower analogies have nothing to do with pain and suffering.

Trusting god has a reason for it is not comforting. Trusting Jesus is the son of god or that he died for our sins seems ludicrous to me. There is just no need for any of it.

Being omnipotent means you are all powerful. The only reason anything exists, the way it is, is because you meant for it to be that way. Once more, if I was god and loved you unconditionally (the way you believe god does) I would not need you to worship me, or need to test you, or make you endure any hardship to prove your loyalty to me. Do you do this to your children if you love them, or ask them to prove their love for you? No, of course you don't. That's rediculous - correction - that's psychotic.

[BADecker]

Well I personally am fine with abortion, and there really is no way to judge whose idea is right or wrong unless we're going by the bible.  The eternal hell isn't a valid argument, just trying to scare people into believing.  I don't need a savior, doing just fine, thanks

Have a little mercy. Look at all the fun you have had in your life. And you want to allow others to deny that to still others? Have a little mercy.



EDIT: You don't need a savior? Does this mean that you know for a fact that you are going to live forever without one?

Until the fetus is able to sense things it's just the same as having never been created IMO.  No woman should be forced to give birth to something that she doesn't want.  It could have been from rape, a broken condom, or she just thought she was prepared but backed out at the last second.  I think we should value the life of a human more than a clump of cells that can't feel anything.  Even when it can feel, it does not have a right to life until it is able to live on it's own.  It's like a vampire that you're letting consensually suck your blood, if you want it to stop then you have a right to make it stop.  I don't support abortion, I support the right of a woman to choose what is right for her body and life.  (flaming in 3... 2... 1...)

I don't think I'm going to live forever without one, I think I'm going to be dead after that final burst of DMT wears off and my brain is inactive.  Same as before I was born.

I completely agree with human rights. We should not harm others. But where the choice is between a woman and her fetus, it is two lives, even though they inhabit much of the same space. That lump of cells is not as unfeeling as one might think.

[BADecker]

Trusting god has a reason for it is not comforting. Trusting Jesus is the son of god or that he died for our sins seems ludicrous to me. There is just no need for any of it.

Accepted. Accepted by God. You have chosen. God still allows you time to change your mind. But, whatever you do, He abides by your choice, willingly.

[cooldgamer]

Well I personally am fine with abortion, and there really is no way to judge whose idea is right or wrong unless we're going by the bible.  The eternal hell isn't a valid argument, just trying to scare people into believing.  I don't need a savior, doing just fine, thanks

Have a little mercy. Look at all the fun you have had in your life. And you want to allow others to deny that to still others? Have a little mercy.



EDIT: You don't need a savior? Does this mean that you know for a fact that you are going to live forever without one?

Until the fetus is able to sense things it's just the same as having never been created IMO.  No woman should be forced to give birth to something that she doesn't want.  It could have been from rape, a broken condom, or she just thought she was prepared but backed out at the last second.  I think we should value the life of a human more than a clump of cells that can't feel anything.  Even when it can feel, it does not have a right to life until it is able to live on it's own.  It's like a vampire that you're letting consensually suck your blood, if you want it to stop then you have a right to make it stop.  I don't support abortion, I support the right of a woman to choose what is right for her body and life.  (flaming in 3... 2... 1...)

I don't think I'm going to live forever without one, I think I'm going to be dead after that final burst of DMT wears off and my brain is inactive.  Same as before I was born.

I completely agree with human rights. We should not harm others. But where the choice is between a woman and her fetus, it is two lives, even though they inhabit much of the same space. That lump of cells is not as unfeeling as one might think.

While the exact timeline is not completely clear yet, the majority of the research into the subject says that the brain connections needed to feel pain are not made until somewhere around 20 weeks.  The very lowest number I was able to find was 8 weeks, so that's a 2 month window minimum to get it done with no chance of harm.

[BitChick]

Cooldgamer,

I know your comments are directed to BADecker, but if you don't mind I will share a few thoughts. (And if you do mind you can just ingore me. )

Blind faith?  I guess you can can see it that way.  What is really strange, and even supernatural if you will, is that the Bible says that God will "Open the eyes of the blind."  In a way a person cannot see things spiritually until this happens.  Many people have said that the Bible made no sense to them until they accepted Christ and then it was like they could "see" things that they never saw before.  There have been times in my life where I have "seen" sins that a person is struggling with with the sole purpose of just praying for that person.  I have "seen" visions.  I have "seen"  several people that I recognized were demon possessed just by feeling their presence in the room and then looked that direction and saw that they "saw" me too!  A bit creepy but at the same time it just proved to me that I can "see" things in a spiritual way that many cannot.  The Bible is even said to be "foolish" to those that do not have the eyes to see.  Instead of judging others for not seeing I should be saying that I would not expect anything less.

The placebo effect is a powerful thing.  A good analogy is those powerbalance wristbands that say their holograms will make you have better posture, better at sports, etc.  They actually are nothing but a piece of foil and some rubber, but the people wearing them believe in it so much that their brains make it true.  I'm not sure what you mean by they "saw" you too, but 2 people looking at eachother proves nothing supernatural.

I don't have time right now to comment on everything (I have a feeling that my opinion probably doesn't matter to you that much anyhow) but I do have a quick story to share regarding "seeing" people that are possessed.

What is strange is that I can feel their presence without seeing them first.  Then when I look the direction that the person is in they are often glaring at me with a sinister look.   My husband has a story that is more compelling though.  When he was in college he had a part-time job at an auto parts store.  There was a really weird guy that would come in on occasion and talk about Nostradamus and my husband noticed that he was possessed.  There was a very weird and dark spirit about him.  One day he was at work and he felt this guy's presence even though the guy was not in the store at the time.  My husband then commented to his co-workers "That Nostradamus guy is back."  The guy wasn't there so they said, "Where?"  My husband then sensed him near the 7-11 store next door and then pointed.  He sensed the guy walking and as his finger moved to where the guy was he was directly pointing at him when his figure appeared in the window walking by the store front.  His co-workers started freaking out and asking him how he knew that.  My husband just said it was easy.  He could "see" him or "sense" his evil or dark presence.  Having had this same experience I totally get it and understand it.  But it is something we can only "see" with our spiritual eyes.

[(oYo)]

Look at all the fun you have had in your life. And you want to allow others to deny that to still others? Have a little mercy.

In some customs people wear black and 'mourn' when a baby is born, and wear white and rejoice when someone dies, because they believe life is suffering.

[BADecker]

Look at all the fun you have had in your life. And you want to allow others to deny that to still others? Have a little mercy.

In some customs people wear black and 'mourn' when a baby is born, and wear white and rejoice when someone dies, because they believe life is suffering.

Or is it because they left God when they were born here, and are going back to God when they die.

[(oYo)]

Has anyone seen the movie, The Sunset Limited? I caught the end of it the other day and was amazed by how much of what Tommy Lee Jone's character said resonated with me. I put together a few quotes from the movie. (Not too sure about the exact order it was said in.)

"Rage is really only for the good days. The truth is there's little of that left. the truth is that the forms I see have been slowly emptied out. They no longer have any content. They are shapes only. A train, a wall, a world. Or a man. A thing dangling in senseless articulation in a howling void. No meaning to its life. Its words. Why would I seek the company of such a thing? Why?

I don't believe in God. Can you understand that? Look around you man. Cant you see? The clamor and din of those in torment has to be the sound most pleasing to his ear. And I loathe these discussions. The argument of the village atheist whose single passion is to revile endlessly that which he denies the existence of in the first place. Your fellowship is a fellowship of pain and nothing more. And if that pain were actually collective instead of simply reiterative then the sheer weight of it would drag the world from the walls of the universe and send it crashing and burning through whatever night it might yet be capable of engendering until it was not even ash. And justice? Brotherhood? Eternal life? Good god, man. Show me a religion that prepares one for death. For nothingness. There's a church I might enter. Yours prepares one only for more life. For dreams and illusions and lies. If you could banish the fear of death from men's hearts they wouldn't live a day. Who would want this nightmare if not for fear of the next? The shadow of the axe hangs over every joy. Every road ends in death. Or worse. Every friendship. Every love. Torment, betrayal, loss, suffering, pain, age, indignity, and hideous lingering illness. All with a single conclusion. For you and for every one and everything that you have chosen to care for. There's the true brotherhood. The true fellowship. And everyone is a member for life.

Your god must once have stood at a dawn of infinite possibilities, and this is what he's made of it. You tell me that I want God's love? I don't. Perhaps I want forgiveness, but there's no-one to ask it of. And there's no going back, there's no setting things right, there's only the hope of nothingness.... I yearn for the darkness. I pray for death. Real death." - Cormac McCarthy, The Sunset Limited

<edit> Found a short Youtube clip of this. Enjoy.
The Sunset Limited - Ending Scene

[BADecker]

Has anyone seen the movie, The Sunset Limited? I caught the end of it the other day and was amazed by how much of what Tommy Lee Jone's character said resonated with me. I put together a few quotes from the movie. (Not too sure about the exact order it was said in.)

<edit> Found a short Youtube clip of this. Enjoy.
The Sunset Limited - Ending Scene

Did Tommy Lee get an Oscar? Some real life people understand it even better than he says it.

Jesus says that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. For a long time I didn't understand what that really meant. But Isaiah 65:17,18 explain it very well:

Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy.
I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.

In other words, the only things that will be left of this whole universe will be the things found in Jesus. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. There isn't any middle, the time that exists now, the universe that exists now. Now will be gone in its entirety.

Where's the justice in it all? Does anyone really know? Can anyone really explain it?

Those who really want to be gone are welcome to be such. All they need do is ignore or downplay God/Jesus. Me, I would rather live. I would rather be in the new heavens and new earth, filled with joy.

For you, your call.

[ObscureBean]

As the eternal party pooper, I'm afraid I have this to say on the matter: Proof exists for anyone who wishes to have it.
Proof is the succulent, seasonless, ever-present fruit hanging from the tree of knowledge. From newborns to centenarians, all are equally well-equipped to pluck it with ease 

[BADecker]

As the eternal party pooper, I'm afraid I have this to say on the matter: Proof exists for anyone who wishes to have it.
Proof is the succulent, seasonless, ever-present fruit hanging from the tree of knowledge. From newborns to centenarians, all are equally well-equipped to pluck it with ease 

Interesting thing is, few seem to recall that it was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

[the joint]

As the eternal party pooper, I'm afraid I have this to say on the matter: Proof exists for anyone who wishes to have it.
Proof is the succulent, seasonless, ever-present fruit hanging from the tree of knowledge. From newborns to centenarians, all are equally well-equipped to pluck it with ease 

Interesting thing is, few seem to recall that it was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

...I doubt that.  You're talking about a story written within the first couple of pages of the best selling book in the world.

[bl4kjaguar]

All “SAVIORS” are by identification and definition “PHONY”.

If there is going to be any “saving” going on--you will do it for yourself.

Christ has taken responsibility for YOU?

[BitChick]

All “SAVIORS” are by identification and definition “PHONY”.

If there is going to be any “saving” going on--you will do it for yourself.

Christ has taken responsibility for YOU?

So how do you expect to save yourself? 

Nothing we can do in our own power is enough to pay the penalty for our sins, so I am very thankful that Christ has taken my sins and paid the penalty for them.  I just don't understand why others cannot see what a gift that is.

[bl4kjaguar]

All “SAVIORS” are by identification and definition “PHONY”.

If there is going to be any “saving” going on--you will do it for yourself.

Christ has taken responsibility for YOU?

So how do you expect to save yourself? 

I will earn my spiritual unity by accessing the knowledge of God within me. This knowledge will help me to follow God's laws responsibly.

Christ never once wrote down that he was your savior. This "savior" theme comes from Paul, who was never a "follower of Christ".

[bl4kjaguar]

Your "proof" of God's existence and "coming" will be revealed WITHIN YOU for there is where exists the kingdom of God... WITHIN YOU!