Diablo Mining Company

[DiabloD3]

I've added Red Star Mining (RSM) to the swap list.

[1713498274]

1713498274

[bitlane]

You really have to shut this guy up..  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol2STodQCQI&feature=plcp

He is making you look stupid, as well as himself (which seems par for him anyways).

He is calling YOU the largest farm currently in existence etc, etc.

If you are happy being associated with this scammer, great....

[BinaryMage]

You really have to shut this guy up..  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol2STodQCQI&feature=plcp

He is making you look stupid, as well as himself (which seems par for him anyways).

He is calling YOU the largest farm currently in existence etc, etc.

If you are happy being associated with this scammer, great....

If that's the only "PR fiasco" Diablo has to deal with, he's looking quite dandy. Deathbylollipop's videos are just hilarious. I really doubt anyone pays serious attention.

[DiabloD3]

You really have to shut this guy up..  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol2STodQCQI&feature=plcp

He is making you look stupid, as well as himself (which seems par for him anyways).

He is calling YOU the largest farm currently in existence etc, etc.

If you are happy being associated with this scammer, great....

I think I need some sort of transnational popcorn manufacturing business.

Edit: I don't think he meant to say I'm the largest, just that I will be the largest. At 1+ thash, that really is true, unless its a stealth farm, I'm not aware of anyone larger.

[DiabloD3]

(Update: I had the cooling factor wrong, lets try this again)

Lets get back to the subject of the green facility.

Geothermal heat pumps are a combined heating/cooling system that dumps heat into the ground and take it back out in the winter (presumably for heating, although nothing stops you from just using it as a heatsink only, and dumping the heat from the system outdoors in the winter).

Around here, ground temperatures 4 feet deep (approximately the frost line) peaks at 50f, or about 40 degrees below air temperature in the hottest of the summer, and drops down to 20f or about 10 degrees above air temperature in coldest of the winter.

To cool the facility for the 3 hottest months of the year (July, August, September) and given 100kw (or twice what the plan calls for) for the facility and 1 ton of heat is 3.5kw, we would need 29 tons of cooling, and factoring in cooling loss/heat gain through the building itself and peak efficiency of a unit is around 3/4ths of its maximum capacity we need about 40 tons. The other 9 months can be cooled effectively using just minimally conditioned air exchange. 8 hours a day of cooling is assumed. Also, $0.10/kwh electricty is assumed.

Cost of air exchange system and ducting is not included, and would be identical for any of the cases. Also, this represents the absolute worst case scenarios for each, actual cooling costs should be much less. These numbers are very rough, and probably slightly wrong.

EER: Energy Efficiency Ratio, or the efficiency of the system at 95f outside temp and 80f inside temp.
EER to kW/h per ton: 12000 BTU/h / EER / 1000

Standard air conditioning
Large scale high efficiency (13 EER) commercial air conditioning is about $800-1000 and 930 watts per ton.  For the three months of summer, that would be about 670 kwh per ton, or about $67.00.

Total cost of ownership for 10 years per ton is $1570, or $62800 for 40 tons.

Vertical closed loop, horizontal closed loop, horizontal closed slinky loop
A typical vertical closed loop geothermal pump drilled 125-250 feet down (250-500 feet of pipe) would sink one ton to two tons of heat. It costs about $3 per foot for the complete cost of drilling and piping, or $750 per ton.

A typical horizontal closed loop geothermal pump is done using 6 foot deep ditches with solid copper coils to distribute the heat. 150 foot long 3 foot wide installations of coils (about 600 feet of copper coil) with 3 feet in between them, and can sink 1 ton of heat. Installation cost is about $1500 per ton.

A typical slinky loop geothermal pump is done using 4-6 foot deep ditches with slinky loops to distribute the heat. 1000 feet of loop sinks 1.5 tons of heat, and are put in ditches 150 foot long and 3 foot wide (or about 1.5x more per surface square foot than copper coils), with 3 feet in between ditches. It costs about $1300 per ton.

The pump costs about $900 per ton, but efficiency goes up to at least 21 EER, so 572 watts and about 411 kwh per ton for the three months of summer, or about $41.10.

Total cost of ownership for 10 years per ton for vertical is $2061, or $82440 for 40 tons
Total cost of ownership for 10 years per ton for horizontal is $2606, $112440 for 40 tons
Total cost of ownership for 10 years per ton for slinky is $2611, $104440 for 40 tons

I'm not going to consider closed loop geothermal pumps because they tend to form leaks around pipe joints and leak all their refrigerant away, especially in northern regions that get significantly cold.

Evaporative cooling
At least one company makes an evaporative cooler that does not humidify the air and runs at 40+ EER and uses about 300w per ton and costs about $1200 per ton. That'd be about 216 kwh for the 3 months of summer, or $21.60.

Total cost of ownership for 10 years per ton is $1416, or $56640 for 40 tons.

However, evaporative cooling does not perform well in humid weather, and although Maine doesn't get like, say, Florida does, its enough to decrease the efficiency of the systems.

So who wins?
Surprisingly, standard AC, assuming any of these numbers are realistic. Even over the whole green battle, I can just install more solar/wind to compensate.

Now, since we're already installing solar and/or wind, heres the numbers for standard AC with solar, assuming the cost of 670 kwh of solar (spread out over the whole year, using 1200kwh per 1kw of panel) is $391:

Total cost of ownership for 10 years per ton is $1291, or $51640.

Now, as I stated above, this would be for 100kw, or twice what we need. I specifically ran the numbers for such in the case we start renting out excess space (which I really want to do). If I want to meet the $150k soft estimate, the building and land is going to have to cost around $100k.

[Gomeler]

I think you missed a digit. To cool a 100kW load you would need around 28-29 tons of cooling. I might have missed a note about this somewhere in the wall of text, just thought I'd let you know this though. Cooling 100kW with a/c is not cheap.

[DiabloD3]

I think you missed a digit. To cool a 100kW load you would need around 28-29 tons of cooling. I might have missed a note about this somewhere in the wall of text, just thought I'd let you know this though. Cooling 100kW with a/c is not cheap.

Thats not what wolfram alpha thinks.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tons%20of%20heat%20to%20kwh

[silverbox]

I think you missed a digit. To cool a 100kW load you would need around 28-29 tons of cooling. I might have missed a note about this somewhere in the wall of text, just thought I'd let you know this though. Cooling 100kW with a/c is not cheap.

Thats not what wolfram alpha thinks.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tons%20of%20heat%20to%20kwh

wolframalpha is wrong.. for the kwh to tons of heat conversion

  a ton of refrigeration is 12,000 btu/h

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=btu+to+watthour

12,000 x .293 =~ 3500 watts per ton of ac.

[DiabloD3]

I think you missed a digit. To cool a 100kW load you would need around 28-29 tons of cooling. I might have missed a note about this somewhere in the wall of text, just thought I'd let you know this though. Cooling 100kW with a/c is not cheap.

Thats not what wolfram alpha thinks.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tons%20of%20heat%20to%20kwh

wolframalpha is wrong.. for the kwh to tons of heat conversion

  a ton of refrigeration is 12,000 btu/h

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=btu+to+watthour

12,000 x .293 =~ 3500 watts per ton of ac.

I would guess the solution would be to provide a mix of cooled air and airflow.

Water cooling might also be an option in this case, since it's cheaper, long term, than running A/C. You can also custom design it so that you're just keeping cases cool, which will suck a LOT of the excess heat out and ease the pressure on the A/C.

Actually in a case like this, custom heatsinks should be considered. A block of copper which extends out of the case and connects to a central heatsink is a phenomenally good idea. You only need to blow on the main block and provide reasonable airflow in other areas.

The original writeup already includes the fact that air exchange from the outside can pretty much handle it most of the rest of the year. This is a worst case study.

As for watercooling... you still need to dump the heat somewhere, which is almost always done using air cooling at the reservoir. Watercooling just is not suited for a DC unless you're doing large scale complete immersion tanks, which I don't thing is ready for prime time yet.

Custom ANYTHING drives cost up.

[DiabloD3]

I think you missed a digit. To cool a 100kW load you would need around 28-29 tons of cooling. I might have missed a note about this somewhere in the wall of text, just thought I'd let you know this though. Cooling 100kW with a/c is not cheap.

Thats not what wolfram alpha thinks.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tons%20of%20heat%20to%20kwh

wolframalpha is wrong.. for the kwh to tons of heat conversion

  a ton of refrigeration is 12,000 btu/h

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=btu+to+watthour

12,000 x .293 =~ 3500 watts per ton of ac.

So 1 ton == 3.5 kw. That means I need ~29 tons, or I was off by 10x. I'll have to rerun the numbers. Blergh. Although, this is why I publicly post numbers, someone always catches a mistake.

[P4man]

, this is why I publicly post numbers,

which doesnt explain why you wouldnt even have done the most basic cost benefit analysis before IPO-ing your so called $1M company.

In that sense, Im surprised you havent considered the most obvious solution for housing, cooling and electricity; put your rigs where no one can steal them, where solar energy is far more efficient than even in the Mojave desert and where cooling is a non issue: low Earth orbit.
Space-x is aiming for $1100/kg, if you want to be ambitious, do it right .

[Sukrim]

Data uplink (and especially downlink) would have too high latencies though, also maintenance costs are relatively high.

A moon based operation on the other hand (with mooncoin, a 1:1 bitcoin clone, just local to the moon to have lower latencies) could work out great!

[DiabloD3]

, this is why I publicly post numbers,

which doesnt explain why you wouldnt even have done the most basic cost benefit analysis before IPO-ing your so called $1M company.

In that sense, Im surprised you havent considered the most obvious solution for housing, cooling and electricity; put your rigs where no one can steal them, where solar energy is far more efficient than even in the Mojave desert and where cooling is a non issue: low Earth orbit.
Space-x is aiming for $1100/kg, if you want to be ambitious, do it right .

Cooling is 120% an issue in space. Get your facts right.

And no, this isn't a cost benefit analysis. I need AC, and its in the $150k soft budget. I'm just trying to decide on WHICH kind of cooling I want. It just doesn't seem cost efficient to use "green" cooling if I can just generate my own power anyways.

Also, before I build any of this, I would have obviously hired a company to run all the numbers for real to begin with. I'm just running these numbers here for fun, essentially. I want this company to be as green as possible, but not more green than legitimately worth it.

[DiabloD3]

Okay, I updated the cooling study with new numbers. Standard AC wins, and it win even harder when factoring in green power generation.

[silverbox]

I think you missed a digit. To cool a 100kW load you would need around 28-29 tons of cooling. I might have missed a note about this somewhere in the wall of text, just thought I'd let you know this though. Cooling 100kW with a/c is not cheap.

Thats not what wolfram alpha thinks.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tons%20of%20heat%20to%20kwh

wolframalpha is wrong.. for the kwh to tons of heat conversion

  a ton of refrigeration is 12,000 btu/h

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=btu+to+watthour

12,000 x .293 =~ 3500 watts per ton of ac.

So 1 ton == 3.5 kw. That means I need ~29 tons, or I was off by 10x. I'll have to rerun the numbers. Blergh. Although, this is why I publicly post numbers, someone always catches a mistake.

actually you were off by 24x.  wolframalpha used days instead of hours for one of the numbers, I sent in an error report about it.

[DiabloD3]

I think you missed a digit. To cool a 100kW load you would need around 28-29 tons of cooling. I might have missed a note about this somewhere in the wall of text, just thought I'd let you know this though. Cooling 100kW with a/c is not cheap.

Thats not what wolfram alpha thinks.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tons%20of%20heat%20to%20kwh

wolframalpha is wrong.. for the kwh to tons of heat conversion

  a ton of refrigeration is 12,000 btu/h

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=btu+to+watthour

12,000 x .293 =~ 3500 watts per ton of ac.

So 1 ton == 3.5 kw. That means I need ~29 tons, or I was off by 10x. I'll have to rerun the numbers. Blergh. Although, this is why I publicly post numbers, someone always catches a mistake.

actually you were off by 24x.  wolframalpha used days instead of hours for one of the numbers, I sent in an error report about it.

Well, I budgeted for 40 tons. I think thats enough for 100kw of hardware, right?

[silverbox]

I think you missed a digit. To cool a 100kW load you would need around 28-29 tons of cooling. I might have missed a note about this somewhere in the wall of text, just thought I'd let you know this though. Cooling 100kW with a/c is not cheap.

Thats not what wolfram alpha thinks.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tons%20of%20heat%20to%20kwh

wolframalpha is wrong.. for the kwh to tons of heat conversion

  a ton of refrigeration is 12,000 btu/h

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=btu+to+watthour

12,000 x .293 =~ 3500 watts per ton of ac.

So 1 ton == 3.5 kw. That means I need ~29 tons, or I was off by 10x. I'll have to rerun the numbers. Blergh. Although, this is why I publicly post numbers, someone always catches a mistake.

actually you were off by 24x.  wolframalpha used days instead of hours for one of the numbers, I sent in an error report about it.

Well, I budgeted for 40 tons. I think thats enough for 100kw of hardware, right?

Yup.  You may want to think about how to build out in a modular fashion, it seems unlikely you will acquire enuf funds in time to build the large scale facility your envisioning.  

If you started with say a <1k sq ft building with a 3-5 ton unit on it and put 10kw of equipment in it, built in such a way that you could add on bascially the same exact footprint/wiring/hvac to it, you could build out in small chunks to the size your thinking about.  Like a 25'x25' insulated garage with a 200A panel on it would be a good starting point..  

[DiabloD3]

I think you missed a digit. To cool a 100kW load you would need around 28-29 tons of cooling. I might have missed a note about this somewhere in the wall of text, just thought I'd let you know this though. Cooling 100kW with a/c is not cheap.

Thats not what wolfram alpha thinks.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tons%20of%20heat%20to%20kwh

wolframalpha is wrong.. for the kwh to tons of heat conversion

  a ton of refrigeration is 12,000 btu/h

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=btu+to+watthour

12,000 x .293 =~ 3500 watts per ton of ac.

So 1 ton == 3.5 kw. That means I need ~29 tons, or I was off by 10x. I'll have to rerun the numbers. Blergh. Although, this is why I publicly post numbers, someone always catches a mistake.

actually you were off by 24x.  wolframalpha used days instead of hours for one of the numbers, I sent in an error report about it.

Well, I budgeted for 40 tons. I think thats enough for 100kw of hardware, right?

Yup.  You may want to think about how to build out in a modular fashion, it seems unlikely you will acquire enuf funds in time to build the large scale facility your envisioning.  

If you started with say a <1k sq ft building with a 3-5 ton unit on it and put 10kw of equipment in it, built in such a way that you could add on bascially the same exact footprint/wiring/hvac to it, you could build out in small chunks to the size your thinking about.  Like a 25'x25' insulated garage with a 200A panel on it would be a good starting point..  

Well, the plan was for 50kw of hardware, not 100kw. I'm running the numbers for 100kw for farther in the future. 50kw would be modular purely out of the fact I'd end up buying 20 ton units, which seems to be the largest size for most of the commercial AC manufacturers.

And you have the floor space about right. 24 by 24 would give me about 4 feet between between each of 4 racks in a single room and the walls. The entire DC itself could easily be fitting in the footprint of 40 by 40 if I stick with the hardware in the plan.

The reason I've set aside $150k isn't for the DC entirely, I need quite a lot of land for the green power end of the plan.

[rjk]

If you need A/C units, get ones designed for continuous datacenter usage. They can be had used and refurbished for excellent prices. Liebert makes some of the most efficient models available, if you get their newer CW models, since they use a set of VFDs for continuously variable cooling capacity. http://www.emersonnetworkpower.com/en-US/Products/PrecisionCooling/LargeRoomCooling/Pages/LiebertCWChilledWater-basedPrecisionCooling26-181kW.aspx

CW models use a chilled water arrangement, but they also offer the DS models with standard refrigerant.

Finally, I have a friend who has four 10-ton VH125AUAAEI units sitting in storage, with date codes from 2001 that still work great, although they might not be up to modern efficiency standards. If you are interested, PM me and I'll see if he wants to sell them. They also have a pair of TVSS for incoming line power surge protection, and some other stuff. Pics:




TVSS


Fire suppression

http://imgur.com/a/MtQaQ

[DiabloD3]

I've been debating posting this to this thread, but might as well, #DMC is publicly logged anyhow.

n0n00dzr4u is the deathbylolipop guy.

[11:33:35] --> n0n00dz4u (~n0n00dz4u@99-10-180-46.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net) has joined #dmc
[11:33:45] <n0n00dz4u> guess what
[11:33:49] <n0n00dz4u> releasing a vlog today
[11:33:56] <n0n00dz4u> discussing how much i hate this company
[11:34:06] <n0n00dz4u> and how you placed an order for 100 btc at .50 each
[11:34:10] <tsukino> oh are you that guy with the death by lollipop stuff
[11:34:12] <n0n00dz4u> you are trying to drag the btc down
[11:34:17] <n0n00dz4u> go fuck yourself
[11:34:19] <Diablo-D3> n0n00dz4u: who did what?
[11:34:19] <n0n00dz4u> good day
[11:34:22] <-- n0n00dz4u has quit (Client Quit)

[12:11:58] --> n0n00dz4u (~n0n00dz4u@99-10-180-46.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net) has joined #dmc
[12:12:05] <n0n00dz4u> okay here is the deal
[12:12:08] <n0n00dz4u> you're paying me
[12:12:12] <n0n00dz4u> 1000 BTC
[12:12:15] <n0n00dz4u> right now
[12:12:22] <n0n00dz4u> or I'm slamming your company on my vlog
[12:12:26] <n0n00dz4u> whats your answer
[12:12:39] <Diablo-D3> how about you explain wtf you're talking about
[12:12:45] <n0n00dz4u> no
[12:12:47] <n0n00dz4u> 1000 btc
[12:12:55] <n0n00dz4u> or I am slamming your company
[12:13:05] <Diablo-D3> if you slam my company, it will just drive people to buy more shares.
[12:13:16] <n0n00dz4u> go fuck your self you old whore
[12:13:18] <n0n00dz4u> your done
[12:13:23] <n0n00dz4u> and your getting slammed cunt
[12:13:25] <n0n00dz4u> real mean
[12:13:28] <-- n0n00dz4u has quit (Client Quit)

So, DMC has now passed the "being blackmailed for cash" milestone.