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Author Topic: [Emergency ANN] Bitcoinica site is taken offline for security investigation  (Read 201888 times)
muyuu
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May 25, 2012, 08:31:57 PM
 #1501

We have all kinds of accounting reports. They are outdated and incomplete to restore trading, but far current enough to identify fake claims.

Tihan is a careful person and he keeps all the logs when he runs his stats program.

Submitting false claims will only result in delay of fund returns. The point system I proposed is used to save time and effort for people with accurate records. There isn't any reason to verify people with verified Bitcoinica account and only 1 BTC balance (and our record proves so). We should just refund the customer in full immediately.

The claim process involves subjective judgements, and that's why I request for take-over. I'm obviously more familiar with the user base and I should provide as much assistance as I can.

I have requested again for takeover in the Skype group and provided my working plan. If they approve within 8 hours from now I'll probably start refunding customers by early next week and finish by the end of next week.

Then why don't you just wait the 8 hours instead of coming here and publicly push your case? what if they actually don't want you to take over? more pressure?

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May 25, 2012, 08:33:11 PM
 #1502

Zhou, I don't remember if I had a balance on Bitcoinica or not.  If I did, it was a rather old balance.  I submitted a claim when the claims form was revealed, and put 0 btc in everything since I had no clue if I had anything in there or not.  Should I take any additional steps?  Resubmit a claim with different balances?

It was a small amount if any (I think 1 BTC or 5 BTC), so not a huge deal, just wondering what I should do to be sure I get back anything I did have in there.

You should be asking that to Mr. Hacker. He's the only one who knows your Bitcoinica balance now lol

When is the hacker's claims page gonna be up?
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May 25, 2012, 08:35:40 PM
 #1503

@zhoutong
So the accounting stuff says I had some past balance or deposit and the amount of funds I claimed was in the ballpark of this. What now? My fake claim still goes through.

Let me make myself very clear here.

There is but ONE solution where Bitcoinica does not necessarily go bust.

You have to retrieve the database!

Do it either by posting a bounty or by catching the hacker.

Every passing day without database increases the likelihood for it to be entirely forged once it is released!

Blitz out.

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
kokjo
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May 25, 2012, 08:39:27 PM
 #1504

You have to retrieve the database!
no. and it would be a very stupid idea to relie on the database now, that hacker would have messed it up already(i would at least).
the db is more then useless right now, its directly misleading.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
BTC_Bear
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May 25, 2012, 08:45:21 PM
 #1505

You have to retrieve the database!
no. and it would be a very stupid idea to relie on the database now, that hacker would have messed it up already(i would at least).
the db is more then useless right now, its directly misleading.

It's compromised, not totally useless.

Corporations have been enthroned, An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. ~Abe Lincoln 1ApJdWUdSWYw8n8HEATYhHXA9EYoRTy7c4
zhoutong
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May 25, 2012, 08:58:12 PM
 #1506

@zhoutong
So the accounting stuff says I had some past balance or deposit and the amount of funds I claimed was in the ballpark of this. What now? My fake claim still goes through.

Let me make myself very clear here.

There is but ONE solution where Bitcoinica does not necessarily go bust.

You have to retrieve the database!

Do it either by posting a bounty or by catching the hacker.

Every passing day without database increases the likelihood for it to be entirely forged once it is released!

Blitz out.

Your fake claim going through doesn't mean it will be approved. Everything is going to be reviewed by a human.

Of course getting the database back will be a good thing, but it's definitely not worth 18k BTC (even paying everyone 10% more will be cheaper than that).

Whether the hacker chooses to release the database or not it's his personal matter. I personally prefer the hacker not to leak anything though.

Your money will be returned. Just don't worry about it.

You can assume that we have the database now. The reconstruction work is much simpler than what I thought.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

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zhoutong
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May 25, 2012, 09:03:03 PM
 #1507

Site note:

You can safely delete Bitcoinica from your Google Authenticator app.

The GA keys were stored in plain text, so we can't use it as an authentication method. In OTP authentication, we have to use the same key that was added to your smartphone to verify your OTP.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

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Coinoisseur
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May 25, 2012, 09:07:59 PM
 #1508

Even if they re-acquired the database, it's worthless for purposes of payouts, the trust chain is broken. Unless they kept up to date hash information on the database information they could verify records with, extremely unlikely.

IMO, they should have had an EULA that said "this site is for entertainment purposes only, no losses will be covered". This is also why non-financial institutions like to sell you a point system such as MS Points, Riot Points, whatever Sony's is called instead of keep a currency account open. Because buried in the terms for their points is the legal equivalent of "no guarantees".

@zhoutong
So the accounting stuff says I had some past balance or deposit and the amount of funds I claimed was in the ballpark of this. What now? My fake claim still goes through.

Let me make myself very clear here.

There is but ONE solution where Bitcoinica does not necessarily go bust.

You have to retrieve the database!

Do it either by posting a bounty or by catching the hacker.

Every passing day without database increases the likelihood for it to be entirely forged once it is released!

Blitz out.
rjk
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May 25, 2012, 09:11:55 PM
 #1509

So how about starting a wiki on the framework for recoverable and resilient systems? For instance, binlogging to an encrypted disk on a server in a different datacenter, because that would fix issues with deleted databases. And HSM devices or some equivalent for storing private keys. And daily and hourly backups to systems outside of the core network. Encrypted of course.
What other ideas do people have?

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
Coinoisseur
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May 25, 2012, 09:26:56 PM
 #1510

Reason there isn't a consolidated resource is because people and companies make a lot of money in the computer security sector. You can find a lot of good information piecemeal but the "how" of putting it all together has extra value from the hoarding of that knowledge.

So how about starting a wiki on the framework for recoverable and resilient systems? For instance, binlogging to an encrypted disk on a server in a different datacenter, because that would fix issues with deleted databases. And HSM devices or some equivalent for storing private keys. And daily and hourly backups to systems outside of the core network. Encrypted of course.
What other ideas do people have?
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May 25, 2012, 09:42:17 PM
 #1511

If there is a lesson to be learned here, it is that you can't make the world a better place in the context of a monetary system. The only wealth we have is our relationships with our fellow human beings. Any technological advancement that is outside the context of making such relationships healthier works to degrade that wealth. Zhou is making the right call in recognizing that he cannot pursue his desires to make society better while working in a sick game of token exchange.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
rjk
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May 25, 2012, 09:47:22 PM
 #1512

Reason there isn't a consolidated resource is because people and companies make a lot of money in the computer security sector. You can find a lot of good information piecemeal but the "how" of putting it all together has extra value from the hoarding of that knowledge.

So how about starting a wiki on the framework for recoverable and resilient systems? For instance, binlogging to an encrypted disk on a server in a different datacenter, because that would fix issues with deleted databases. And HSM devices or some equivalent for storing private keys. And daily and hourly backups to systems outside of the core network. Encrypted of course.
What other ideas do people have?
Very true. And, the "how" often changes so rapidly that maintaining a comprehensive resource on it is not workable. What I want to see is a list of minimum standards that should be expected from businesses dealing with our money. Simply a framework of technologies that you have to stir together in the right proportions, and a list of potential consequences of omitting one or more of them.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
RandyMarsh
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May 25, 2012, 09:52:32 PM
 #1513

We have all kinds of accounting reports. They are outdated and incomplete to restore trading, but far current enough to identify fake claims.

My last deposit was made about an hour before this happened... Does this mean the info I can provide about that deposit is useless in making my claim?

And its the last deposit specifically the claim form asks for...

Stan?! STAN?!?!
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May 25, 2012, 09:59:45 PM
 #1514

You are describing financial regulations, for that you should deal with financially regulated companies. I personally have no wish to see BTC taken over by any government's financial framework. It's a tough problem, imo this is a great opportunity to see if open sourcing security completely would actually be effective. If the whole process is completely transparent then people can decide for themselves whether to use a BTC service.

Reason there isn't a consolidated resource is because people and companies make a lot of money in the computer security sector. You can find a lot of good information piecemeal but the "how" of putting it all together has extra value from the hoarding of that knowledge.

So how about starting a wiki on the framework for recoverable and resilient systems? For instance, binlogging to an encrypted disk on a server in a different datacenter, because that would fix issues with deleted databases. And HSM devices or some equivalent for storing private keys. And daily and hourly backups to systems outside of the core network. Encrypted of course.
What other ideas do people have?
Very true. And, the "how" often changes so rapidly that maintaining a comprehensive resource on it is not workable. What I want to see is a list of minimum standards that should be expected from businesses dealing with our money. Simply a framework of technologies that you have to stir together in the right proportions, and a list of potential consequences of omitting one or more of them.
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May 25, 2012, 10:28:26 PM
 #1515

So how about starting a wiki on the framework for recoverable and resilient systems? For instance, binlogging to an encrypted disk on a server in a different datacenter, because that would fix issues with deleted databases. And HSM devices or some equivalent for storing private keys. And daily and hourly backups to systems outside of the core network. Encrypted of course.
What other ideas do people have?
Reason there isn't a consolidated resource is because people and companies make a lot of money in the computer security sector. You can find a lot of good information piecemeal but the "how" of putting it all together has extra value from the hoarding of that knowledge.
Very true. And, the "how" often changes so rapidly that maintaining a comprehensive resource on it is not workable. What I want to see is a list of minimum standards that should be expected from businesses dealing with our money. Simply a framework of technologies that you have to stir together in the right proportions, and a list of potential consequences of omitting one or more of them.
You are describing financial regulations, for that you should deal with financially regulated companies. I personally have no wish to see BTC taken over by any government's financial framework. It's a tough problem, imo this is a great opportunity to see if open sourcing security completely would actually be effective. If the whole process is completely transparent then people can decide for themselves whether to use a BTC service.
Not even government based, but just a wiki somewhere.

Many of the FIPS-140-2 guidelines are extremely applicable though.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
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May 25, 2012, 10:35:14 PM
 #1516

Well I've written ISO ISM manuals in the past.

So why not a wiki?

Start ISO 31337 and a Bitcoin ISM

I'm sure crowd sourced contributions that are voted on would come up with something pretty reasonable.


Corporations have been enthroned, An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. ~Abe Lincoln 1ApJdWUdSWYw8n8HEATYhHXA9EYoRTy7c4
BadBitcoin (James Sutton)
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May 25, 2012, 10:45:25 PM
 #1517

Site note:

You can safely delete Bitcoinica from your Google Authenticator app.

The GA keys were stored in plain text, so we can't use it as an authentication method. In OTP authentication, we have to use the same key that was added to your smartphone to verify your OTP.
'

zhou, is there any way to get updated information on the progression of these claims without having to sift through this forum thread every few hours?

Take a look at my  machine learning/economics/engineering blog!
www.learningann.wordpress.com
Otoh
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May 25, 2012, 11:05:02 PM
 #1518

YOU BETTER SOMEHOW RETRIEVE THE DB FROM THE HACKER OR THIS IS GOING TO END UP IN DISASTER!
It's not a disaster already?
I mean insolvency style disaster. 18.5k BTC is nothing.

What are they going to do if (and it is not really "if" – when it comes to money, people will do it if they can get away with it) there are a few hundred cunning people like me who thought the same on 20th of May? Read my IRC log.

What are they going to do once the deposit claims total 500k BTC, most of them being from 100+ points users?

There are only so many funds, and the fight over them is ON.

Better find a way to retrieve the database before they go broke, no?

We have all kinds of accounting reports. They are outdated and incomplete to restore trading, but far current enough to identify fake claims.

Tihan is a careful person and he keeps all the logs when he runs his stats program.

Submitting false claims will only result in delay of fund returns. The point system I proposed is used to save time and effort for people with accurate records. There isn't any reason to verify people with verified Bitcoinica account and only 1 BTC balance (and our record proves so). We should just refund the customer in full immediately.

The claim process involves subjective judgements, and that's why I request for take-over. I'm obviously more familiar with the user base and I should provide as much assistance as I can.

I have requested again for takeover in the Skype group and provided my working plan. If they approve within 8 hours from now I'll probably start refunding customers by early next week and finish by the end of next week.

zhoutong
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Bitcoinica Memorial Day anyone, when we remember those brave & contagious souls who risked their all in a dodgy margin trading scheme, we recall those funds that were for ever lost, mislaid or indefinitely detained without due process, we vow never to repeat such a madness ever again, or at least not until Kronos.io opens for business next week



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rdponticelli
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May 25, 2012, 11:19:07 PM
 #1519

Can anybody involved setup a communication thread where we can have some information without so much noise?

Site note:

You can safely delete Bitcoinica from your Google Authenticator app.

The GA keys were stored in plain text, so we can't use it as an authentication method. In OTP authentication, we have to use the same key that was added to your smartphone to verify your OTP.
'

zhou, is there any way to get updated information on the progression of these claims without having to sift through this forum thread every few hours?

Please?

This thread has some fun, I can't deny it. Is nice to read it sometimes. But it would be better if you start something like Bitcoinica Claim Process, or something alike, more focused on updates for those trying to know how everything's going, don't you think?
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May 25, 2012, 11:22:14 PM
 #1520

If there is a lesson to be learned here, it is that you can't make the world a better place in the context of a monetary system. The only wealth we have is our relationships with our fellow human beings. Any technological advancement that is outside the context of making such relationships healthier works to degrade that wealth. Zhou is making the right call in recognizing that he cannot pursue his desires to make society better while working in a sick game of token exchange.

looool Nothing like a Zeitgeister to top this thread off.  Roll Eyes

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
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