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Author Topic: [Emergency ANN] Bitcoinica site is taken offline for security investigation  (Read 201751 times)
Blitz­
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May 25, 2012, 12:45:37 PM
 #1441

I read his suggestion, and it makes sense because some of the info he is suggesting to use for claims cannot be faked. Very good suggestions, too.
Nonsense, I would easily have gotten >100 points filing my fake claim. The only thing that stopped me was my conscience.

Where is the money going to come from the other depositors will be missing? This is why I say I see no way around insolvency without the database.

You guys go ahead, though. I’ll get the popcorn for when people with 100+ points are requesting 500k BTC. Grin Grin Grin

edit: rjk, no need for that. I can get over 100 despite that missing. Also I doubt they have that email data.

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
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May 25, 2012, 12:46:53 PM
 #1442

I read his suggestion, and it makes sense because some of the info he is suggesting to use for claims cannot be faked. Very good suggestions, too.
Nonsense, I would easily have gotten >100 points filing my fake claim. The only thing that stopped me was my conscience.

Where is the money going to come from the other depositors will be missing? This is why I say I see no way around insolvency without the database.
You have deposit and withdrawal amounts that correspond exactly with the emails that they have on hand?

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May 25, 2012, 12:57:40 PM
 #1443

--- Disclaimer: Pure suggestion. NOT OFFICIAL ---

- Your bitcointalk.org profile or Bitcoin-OTC rating shows you as reputable and trustworthy. (50 Points)
- You can supply at least one transactional email you have received which perfectly matches our outgoing transactional email records. (30 Points)
- You can provide passport scans and you have provided to Bitcoinica (even if it's pending verification). (40 Points)
- The order of magnitude of your reported balance is consistent with our outdated accounting records. (30 Points)
- You can recall the balances exactly or very precisely. (20 Points)
- You have reported a losing position, with precise details. (20 Points)
- You have contacted Bitcoinica Support at least once since September 2011. (10 Points)
- Your email can be searched online and matches your identity. (10 Points)
- You can provide proof of Bitcoin address ownership (signature), Mt. Gox code you have used/obtained or accurate details of large transaction records (>2500 BTC) that match our hedging activity. (10 Points each kind of evidence)
- Another reputable member supports your claim. (10 Points)
- You have used wire transfer, BitInstant or AurumXchange to deposit/withdraw funds and they can verify the records. (10 Points)
- You have submitted the claim within the first 24 hours since the announcement. (10 Points)

If there are no transactional emails or support emails ever sent to the claimed address, 0 Points for now.

--- Disclaimer: Pure suggestion. NOT OFFICIAL ---

I have been a Bitcoinica customer for the last several months.

I made a number of deposits to Bitcoinica from Mt.Gox, using Mt.Gox codes.
I executed dozens of trades, won some, lost some, made no withdrawals.
I never had any issues with the service so I made no complaints and sent no emails to support.

I don't seem to have received  _any_ emails from *@bitcoinica.com prior to the claims form.
I had a smooth, clean, entirely trouble free relationship with bitcoinica to the day of the last hack.

Was transactional emails turned off by default? (I don't like frequent, automated emails cluttering my inbox.)
Am I looking at the wrong email address? Or am I missing something?
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May 25, 2012, 01:00:16 PM
 #1444

--- Disclaimer: Pure suggestion. NOT OFFICIAL ---

- Your bitcointalk.org profile or Bitcoin-OTC rating shows you as reputable and trustworthy. (50 Points)
- You can supply at least one transactional email you have received which perfectly matches our outgoing transactional email records. (30 Points)
- You can provide passport scans and you have provided to Bitcoinica (even if it's pending verification). (40 Points)
- The order of magnitude of your reported balance is consistent with our outdated accounting records. (30 Points)
- You can recall the balances exactly or very precisely. (20 Points)
- You have reported a losing position, with precise details. (20 Points)
- You have contacted Bitcoinica Support at least once since September 2011. (10 Points)
- Your email can be searched online and matches your identity. (10 Points)
- You can provide proof of Bitcoin address ownership (signature), Mt. Gox code you have used/obtained or accurate details of large transaction records (>2500 BTC) that match our hedging activity. (10 Points each kind of evidence)
- Another reputable member supports your claim. (10 Points)
- You have used wire transfer, BitInstant or AurumXchange to deposit/withdraw funds and they can verify the records. (10 Points)
- You have submitted the claim within the first 24 hours since the announcement. (10 Points)

If there are no transactional emails or support emails ever sent to the claimed address, 0 Points for now.

--- Disclaimer: Pure suggestion. NOT OFFICIAL ---

I have been a Bitcoinica customer for the last several months.

I made a number of deposits to Bitcoinica from Mt.Gox, using Mt.Gox codes.
I executed dozens of trades, won some, lost some, made no withdrawals.
I never had any issues with the service so I made no complaints and sent no emails to support.

I don't seem to have received  _any_ emails from *@bitcoinica.com prior to the claims form.
I had a smooth, clean, entirely trouble free relationship with bitcoinica to the day of the last hack.

From reading zhoutongs inane unofficial suggestion I get a sinking feeling in my stomach.

Was transactional emails turned off by default? (I don't like frequent, automated emails cluttering my inbox.)
Am I looking at the wrong email address? Or am I missing something?

*slams head into keyboard*

you got an email when you deposited money (any currency).
i am in a similar situation: i just deleted them immediatly.

but at least i did had a verified account and made a wire transfer (dont know if i am respected member...).
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May 25, 2012, 01:02:22 PM
 #1445

I have been a Bitcoinica customer for the last several months.

I made a number of deposits to Bitcoinica from Mt.Gox, using Mt.Gox codes.
I executed dozens of trades, won some, lost some, made no withdrawals.
I never had any issues with the service so I made no complaints and sent no emails to support.

I don't seem to have received  _any_ emails from *@bitcoinica.com prior to the claims form.
I had a smooth, clean, entirely trouble free relationship with bitcoinica to the day of the last hack.

From reading zhoutongs inane unofficial suggestion I get a sinking feeling in my stomach.

Was transactional emails turned off by default? (I don't like frequent, automated emails cluttering my inbox.)
Am I looking at the wrong email address? Or am I missing something?

*slams head into keyboard*

I'm in the same situation.
I only used mtgox codes to make deposits/withdrawals.

MTGox has evidence that I made a BTC deposit. Maybe MTGox could take part in verification process ?

I think most of bitcoinica users has an account in MTGox.

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You are WRONG!


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May 25, 2012, 01:04:05 PM
 #1446

--- Disclaimer: Pure suggestion. NOT OFFICIAL ---

- Your bitcointalk.org profile or Bitcoin-OTC rating shows you as reputable and trustworthy. (50 Points)
- You can supply at least one transactional email you have received which perfectly matches our outgoing transactional email records. (30 Points)
- You can provide passport scans and you have provided to Bitcoinica (even if it's pending verification). (40 Points)
- The order of magnitude of your reported balance is consistent with our outdated accounting records. (30 Points)
- You can recall the balances exactly or very precisely. (20 Points)
- You have reported a losing position, with precise details. (20 Points)
- You have contacted Bitcoinica Support at least once since September 2011. (10 Points)
- Your email can be searched online and matches your identity. (10 Points)
- You can provide proof of Bitcoin address ownership (signature), Mt. Gox code you have used/obtained or accurate details of large transaction records (>2500 BTC) that match our hedging activity. (10 Points each kind of evidence)
- Another reputable member supports your claim. (10 Points)
- You have used wire transfer, BitInstant or AurumXchange to deposit/withdraw funds and they can verify the records. (10 Points)
- You have submitted the claim within the first 24 hours since the announcement. (10 Points)

If there are no transactional emails or support emails ever sent to the claimed address, 0 Points for now.

--- Disclaimer: Pure suggestion. NOT OFFICIAL ---

I have been a Bitcoinica customer for the last several months.

I made a number of deposits to Bitcoinica from Mt.Gox, using Mt.Gox codes.
I executed dozens of trades, won some, lost some, made no withdrawals.
I never had any issues with the service so I made no complaints and sent no emails to support.

I don't seem to have received  _any_ emails from *@bitcoinica.com prior to the claims form.
I had a smooth, clean, entirely trouble free relationship with bitcoinica to the day of the last hack.

From reading zhoutongs inane unofficial suggestion I get a sinking feeling in my stomach.

Was transactional emails turned off by default? (I don't like frequent, automated emails cluttering my inbox.)
Am I looking at the wrong email address? Or am I missing something?
i have the emails. check your spam folder.
and im reputable and trustworthy, even though i didn't do many deals in bitcoin, im still a long time member of the bitcoin community, and i haven't cheated or lied.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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May 25, 2012, 01:18:39 PM
 #1447

i have the emails. check your spam folder.

Thanks for the suggestion. No luck, unfortunately.

Last deposit to Bitcoinica was 32 days prior to its death.
(Spam-tagged messages would have been flushed.)
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May 25, 2012, 01:48:26 PM
 #1448

Bitcoins are as much of a property as WoW Gold, potatoes or USD, you retard. The law doesn’t care what it is, as long as a contract exists.

BTW, don’t you have 25 BTC to repay?

BTC is electrons in a computer mate as far as the law is concerned or a crypto message not money or a possession.



So is a CAM file of The Avengers....
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May 25, 2012, 01:49:35 PM
 #1449

Incidentally, this is why I never sign NDAs, even though they are sometimes presented as "standard practice".

(Lots of people don't sign them, actually. If you go to a job interview at Google, you will be asked to sign an NDA. But if you don't sign the NDA, you still get the interview.)

An NDA is not needed when the parties are all acting in good faith. And if one of the parties is not acting in good faith, the NDA can be used to stop the good guys from doing what they should be doing.

You can't deny someone the application process. It is protected under the law. You, however, can deny someone the job for not signing a NDA.

Edit: But considering the non-business business theme's that go with this community, NDA is pretty irrelevant as to someone signing them. Especially when more than 2 people are protecting information.

Corporations have been enthroned, An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. ~Abe Lincoln 1ApJdWUdSWYw8n8HEATYhHXA9EYoRTy7c4
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May 25, 2012, 01:53:57 PM
 #1450

Not really, I am just trying to balance the other idiots asking for public hangings, and issuing death threats, transparency does not mean hunting the owner down, or asking people to "get their money out of intersango" (see shad0wblitz).

Transparency, well, why would you need that? You just need your money back, there was no need for transparency back when the money was coming as I remember.

Solutions, well, if you follow my posts, I also asked that they add on their website some kind of list to when and what they refunded, not specific details but at least amounts or something, the wait is annoying for the people.

Finally, I am speaking about the facts, not suppositions, or conspiracy theories.

P.S. If you noticed, someone deleted my post, and this is the second time they do? I just ask people to calm down, and they delete my posts, but they let the ones that incite to violence, even the one when a person said he will contract a hit man to kill the intersango people.

Up until yesterday you people were screaming about the owner, that you want to know who he is, several pages of bitching, now that he showed up, and he is not the criminal mastermind you expected him to be, you started with the backups, I wonder what you will come up with next.

bitcoinica socket puppet much? Every single post that you made in this thread is somehow an attack on those who wants transparency and REAL answers/solutions.


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May 25, 2012, 02:16:18 PM
 #1451

Bitcoins are as much of a property as WoW Gold, potatoes or USD, you retard. The law doesn’t care what it is, as long as a contract exists.

BTW, don’t you have 25 BTC to repay?

BTC is electrons in a computer mate as far as the law is concerned or a crypto message not money or a possession.



So is a CAM file of The Avengers....

So is, USD, GBP, EUR, etc... at banks. The 'cash' is in the bank to pay out from what those 'electrons' say you have in your account.


Corporations have been enthroned, An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. ~Abe Lincoln 1ApJdWUdSWYw8n8HEATYhHXA9EYoRTy7c4
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May 25, 2012, 02:25:05 PM
 #1452

Bitcoins are as much of a property as WoW Gold, potatoes or USD, you retard. The law doesn’t care what it is, as long as a contract exists.

BTW, don’t you have 25 BTC to repay?

BTC is electrons in a computer mate as far as the law is concerned or a crypto message not money or a possession.



So is a CAM file of The Avengers....

So is, USD, GBP, EUR, etc... at banks. The 'cash' is in the bank to pay out from what those 'electrons' say you have in your account.



Stop the FUD. Show me where law enforcement has been involved with BTC or shut up. BTC is nothing in the eyes of the law.

Under UK law the only thing he is guilty of is Computer Misuse Act for hacking into the systems and modifying the database to cause damages.

Do you think if they catch him he will be told to pay 18k BTC back ? LOL. BTC is not money, as much as anyone wants to believe. Would they charge him MtGox exchange rate ? How do you determine BTC exchange rate if there is no central issuer / bank ?

Police care more about pirates copying movies than our BTC and hacks ... because of corporate lobbying against file sharing etc.

Show me where BTC has gotten law enforcement involved and thus we saw that BTC is recognized as "property". Movies are "intellectual property". What is BTC so far ? Nothing.

My point is BTC has a long way to go till legal recognition and till then anyone that steals / hacks them is innocent in eyes of the law.

What happened to shakaru guy ? NOTHING, even if people knew his personal details. If they came and called him then he could file for harassment because he stole nothing at all.
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May 25, 2012, 02:34:21 PM
 #1453

i have the emails. check your spam folder.

Thanks for the suggestion. No luck, unfortunately.

Last deposit to Bitcoinica was 32 days prior to its death.
(Spam-tagged messages would have been flushed.)

Your email would be the evidence, but the 0 point is reserved for unknown account holders, like Blitz. As long as we sent anything to your email, we know that you're a customer and other points criteria should apply.

Also Mt. Gox codes can prove your account ownership as well. We have all deposit records since February.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

Donations for my future Bitcoin projects: 19Uk3tiD5XkBcmHyQYhJxp9QHoub7RosVb
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May 25, 2012, 02:46:34 PM
 #1454

I read his suggestion, and it makes sense because some of the info he is suggesting to use for claims cannot be faked. Very good suggestions, too.
Nonsense, I would easily have gotten >100 points filing my fake claim. The only thing that stopped me was my conscience.

Where is the money going to come from the other depositors will be missing? This is why I say I see no way around insolvency without the database.

You guys go ahead, though. I’ll get the popcorn for when people with 100+ points are requesting 500k BTC. Grin Grin Grin

edit: rjk, no need for that. I can get over 100 despite that missing. Also I doubt they have that email data.

No, you can't if there's no account activity. Remember that we have some outdated records as well so fake claims are obvious to identify.

I have only listed positive points, but there will be negative points as well. You simply need more evidence if the claimed amount is nowhere near what we expect you to have.

Bitcoinica balance ownership is highly concentrated, and we have quite current records some top accounts. I constantly log in to the back end and my memory can easily figure out whether I have seen the user with certain amount of money or not, especially those with support requests.

The current situation is tough, but resolving it and provide at least 98% satisfaction aren't going to cost more than 18k BTC extra.

Founder of NameTerrific (https://www.nameterrific.com/). Co-founder of CoinJar (https://coinjar.io/)

Donations for my future Bitcoin projects: 19Uk3tiD5XkBcmHyQYhJxp9QHoub7RosVb
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May 25, 2012, 02:52:00 PM
 #1455

I have a mere $11 dollars tied up in bitconica along with 0.073xxx bitcoins.  I finally got my claim to submit.  All these transactions can be verified through my emails and all were done via mtgox.  I would assume this would be more than sufficient proof? 
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May 25, 2012, 02:53:29 PM
 #1456

Its NOT official. Its the way he would do it...
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May 25, 2012, 02:53:58 PM
 #1457

Bitcoins are as much of a property as WoW Gold, potatoes or USD, you retard. The law doesn’t care what it is, as long as a contract exists.

BTW, don’t you have 25 BTC to repay?

BTC is electrons in a computer mate as far as the law is concerned or a crypto message not money or a possession.



So is a CAM file of The Avengers....

So is, USD, GBP, EUR, etc... at banks. The 'cash' is in the bank to pay out from what those 'electrons' say you have in your account.



Stop the FUD. Show me where law enforcement has been involved with BTC or shut up. BTC is nothing in the eyes of the law.

Under UK law the only thing he is guilty of is Computer Misuse Act for hacking into the systems and modifying the database to cause damages.

Do you think if they catch him he will be told to pay 18k BTC back ? LOL. BTC is not money, as much as anyone wants to believe. Would they charge him MtGox exchange rate ? How do you determine BTC exchange rate if there is no central issuer / bank ?

Police care more about pirates copying movies than our BTC and hacks ... because of corporate lobbying against file sharing etc.

Show me where BTC has gotten law enforcement involved and thus we saw that BTC is recognized as "property". Movies are "intellectual property". What is BTC so far ? Nothing.

My point is BTC has a long way to go till legal recognition and till then anyone that steals / hacks them is innocent in eyes of the law.

What happened to shakaru guy ? NOTHING, even if people knew his personal details. If they came and called him then he could file for harassment because he stole nothing at all.

Guess you haven't been around. There is a 'case' or two involving theft of BTC. They are not that hard to find.

What BTC are, is irrelevant. For Example, if BTC was 'Monopoly Money', and you had $5000.00 worth of Monopoly Money that was stolen then that is all LE needs to know.

The only possible problem, is if BTC is considered a currency. e.g. If you steal $500 USD dollars and the judge orders you to pay back, you have to give back $500 USD not BTC.  NOW, if it is considered a currency, then they don't have to give back the current exchange rate from BTC to 'traditional fiat' but just the BTC.  So, if someone steals 100 BTC worth 500 USD but then BTC drops by 50% then when they give it back it is only worth $250.

So do they give back the value of what was stolen in a currency or do they give back 'what' was stolen.

OFC, I understand why 'you' are so concerned that Law Enforcement doesn't get involved. Don't worry, 22.5 BTC isn't worth the trouble. 87,000 USD just might be though.

Corporations have been enthroned, An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. ~Abe Lincoln 1ApJdWUdSWYw8n8HEATYhHXA9EYoRTy7c4
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May 25, 2012, 02:56:37 PM
 #1458

Bitcoins are as much of a property as WoW Gold, potatoes or USD, you retard. The law doesn’t care what it is, as long as a contract exists.

BTW, don’t you have 25 BTC to repay?

BTC is electrons in a computer mate as far as the law is concerned or a crypto message not money or a possession.



So is a CAM file of The Avengers....

So is, USD, GBP, EUR, etc... at banks. The 'cash' is in the bank to pay out from what those 'electrons' say you have in your account.



Stop the FUD. Show me where law enforcement has been involved with BTC or shut up. BTC is nothing in the eyes of the law.

Under UK law the only thing he is guilty of is Computer Misuse Act for hacking into the systems and modifying the database to cause damages.

Do you think if they catch him he will be told to pay 18k BTC back ? LOL. BTC is not money, as much as anyone wants to believe. Would they charge him MtGox exchange rate ? How do you determine BTC exchange rate if there is no central issuer / bank ?

Police care more about pirates copying movies than our BTC and hacks ... because of corporate lobbying against file sharing etc.

Show me where BTC has gotten law enforcement involved and thus we saw that BTC is recognized as "property". Movies are "intellectual property". What is BTC so far ? Nothing.

My point is BTC has a long way to go till legal recognition and till then anyone that steals / hacks them is innocent in eyes of the law.

What happened to shakaru guy ? NOTHING, even if people knew his personal details. If they came and called him then he could file for harassment because he stole nothing at all.

Guess you haven't been around. There is a 'case' or two involving theft of BTC. They are not that hard to find.

What BTC are, is irrelevant. For Example, if BTC was 'Monopoly Money', and you had $5000.00 worth of Monopoly Money that was stolen then that is all LE needs to know.

The only possible problem, is if BTC is considered a currency. e.g. If you steal $500 USD dollars and the judge orders you to pay back, you have to give back $500 USD not BTC.  NOW, if it is considered a currency, then they don't have to give back the current exchange rate from BTC to 'traditional fiat' but just the BTC.  So, if someone steals 100 BTC worth 500 USD but then BTC drops by 50% then when they give it back it is only worth $250.

So do they give back the value of what was stolen in a currency or do they give back 'what' was stolen.

OFC, I understand why 'you' are so concerned that Law Enforcement doesn't get involved. Don't worry, 22.5 BTC isn't worth the trouble. 87,000 USD just might be though.

I have been around since May 10 2011. I know the cases of BTC theft.

I am asking you to show me a case where BTC led to prosecution. You have failed to show me one such case.

Stop trying to divert the question. Will the hacker get charged for 18K BTC theft ? Probably not like many such others.

Shakaru is living the life now with his $20k theft and nobody can do a damn thing ...
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May 25, 2012, 03:07:14 PM
 #1459

I can not show you a case of a prosecution from something involving Bitcoins. There might be one out there but I am unaware of it.

So, I guess you're safe. Smiley  

Unless, somebody just wants to drag you through the court system to cost you a lot of money just for the fun of it. Even though, they don't expect to win.

Nah... No one does that, correct?


Corporations have been enthroned, An era of corruption in high places will follow and the money power will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. ~Abe Lincoln 1ApJdWUdSWYw8n8HEATYhHXA9EYoRTy7c4
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May 25, 2012, 03:17:37 PM
 #1460

The suggestions about bounties for the database from the hacker are pointless; there is no way to verify its integrity now. In order to proceed forward, they will simply have to assume on good faith that the hacker is not submitting duplicate claims to poison the process.

They are forced to piece information together from the bitcoinica account MtGox logs (for those users who made deposits/withdrawals using MtGox codes) and from the blockchain. Good luck with that. (Like some other users I can find zero transactional emails from bitcoinica, possibly purged as spam).



Zhou: You blamed the first loss of 40k BTC on a ruby gem. You blamed the second loss of the entirety of your user database on a support guy at Rackspace.

You are not mature enough for the big leagues. Go sit on the bench and shut up (work with the team). With the full disclosure, your continued public display is embarrassing to your legacy and your partners. You are, however, a technical genius and your single-handled contributions were heroic (apart from the cascading slow-motion disasters) and will not be overlooked.



I hope Bitcoinica Consultancy rejects any offer from Zhou to take over the claims process. I hope zhou continues to help them however he can.

Some of his suggestions for "points" are naive (as we would expect from him) and falsifiable, as Blitz points out. The same can be said about the current claims form on Bitcoinica, which is laughable. There is more information that users could provide (some of the better data suggestions Zhou suggests, such as mtgox codes, bitcoin address ownership, etc). But it is hard to blame them or expect much better, given their situation. There is no magic wand and they are up shit creek without a paddle.

College of Bucking Bulls Knowledge
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