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Author Topic: [Emergency ANN] Bitcoinica site is taken offline for security investigation  (Read 201501 times)
Bitcoinica Consultancy
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May 23, 2012, 09:06:45 AM
 #1121

We had written a long post however we are prevented from posting it due to limitations. We are very sorry. We are trying to resolve this matter however we are limited in our capacities.
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May 23, 2012, 09:07:48 AM
 #1122

anyone interested in given me 80btc now and get 100btc as soon as bitcoinica pays out?
just contact me Wink

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83005.0

i was so dumb to take all my btc to bitconica.

EDIT: please no long text; just state when we get our money.
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May 23, 2012, 10:04:36 AM
 #1123

We had written a long post however we are prevented from posting it due to limitations. We are very sorry. We are trying to resolve this matter however we are limited in our capacities.

If nothing else, this demonstrates clearly that your first priority is not Bitcoinica's clients.
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May 23, 2012, 10:22:48 AM
 #1124

A few observations:

The need for a long post implies that there is far more bad news to come.  A long post explaining what we already know wouldn't be necessary.

The fact that posting by Bitcoinica Consultancy is being "limited" by some other party (presumably the owner, and presumably the person who's footing the bill) implies that the other party is expecting legal trouble and wants the minimum amount of evidence to be released.  A post that says "we're starting paybacks next Tuesday" would not need to be limited.

Expectation of legal trouble implies that at least some portion of deposits are not going to be returned.

Combining the above implies that the claim form was a stalling tactic.  There is no claims process; or the claims process has been stopped.  This doesn't surprise me -- as I said way back in this thread, the claims form didn't prove identity and wasn't secure; neither of which are problems for a fake claim form.

We already know that 20% of held coins where in the stolen wallet.  That means 80% (at most) are available for return.  The "bad news" could quite easily be that no funds are available to replace those stolen 20% and we are all going to have to accept 80% of net value (at best).

If we can believe Bitcoinica that all positions were correctly matched, then it really shouldn't matter about open positions -- every loser should be matched by a winner, so the payout could be made based on any price you like (the best being the current price of course). 

If Bitcoinica weren't correctly hedging, then the additional "bad news" could be that there weren't even enough funds to cover all open positions before the theft.  In which case, considerably less than 80% will be offered.

Given that we know all the servers were deleted, the absolute worst potential "bad news" I can think of is that the cold wallet was being stored on one of the other servers (probably encrypted, so the thief hasn't stolen those coins) and there is no off-site backup.  That would mean 20% of the coins were stolen, but 80% were deleted.  The only remaining funds would be USD.  Let's guess that the two pools were equal (I'm sure they weren't) -- that would mean a 50% payout.

My guess then, is that Bitcoinica and co are desperately seeking legal advice about the best way to break it to us that a significant amount of our money is gone and they cannot afford to pay it back.


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May 23, 2012, 10:51:23 AM
 #1125

A few observations:

The need for a long post implies that there is far more bad news to come.  A long post explaining what we already know wouldn't be necessary.

The fact that posting by Bitcoinica Consultancy is being "limited" by some other party (presumably the owner, and presumably the person who's footing the bill) implies that the other party is expecting legal trouble and wants the minimum amount of evidence to be released.  A post that says "we're starting paybacks next Tuesday" would not need to be limited.

Expectation of legal trouble implies that at least some portion of deposits are not going to be returned.

Combining the above implies that the claim form was a stalling tactic.  There is no claims process; or the claims process has been stopped.  This doesn't surprise me -- as I said way back in this thread, the claims form didn't prove identity and wasn't secure; neither of which are problems for a fake claim form.

We already know that 20% of held coins where in the stolen wallet.  That means 80% (at most) are available for return.  The "bad news" could quite easily be that no funds are available to replace those stolen 20% and we are all going to have to accept 80% of net value (at best).

If we can believe Bitcoinica that all positions were correctly matched, then it really shouldn't matter about open positions -- every loser should be matched by a winner, so the payout could be made based on any price you like (the best being the current price of course). 

If Bitcoinica weren't correctly hedging, then the additional "bad news" could be that there weren't even enough funds to cover all open positions before the theft.  In which case, considerably less than 80% will be offered.

Given that we know all the servers were deleted, the absolute worst potential "bad news" I can think of is that the cold wallet was being stored on one of the other servers (probably encrypted, so the thief hasn't stolen those coins) and there is no off-site backup.  That would mean 20% of the coins were stolen, but 80% were deleted.  The only remaining funds would be USD.  Let's guess that the two pools were equal (I'm sure they weren't) -- that would mean a 50% payout.

My guess then, is that Bitcoinica and co are desperately seeking legal advice about the best way to break it to us that a significant amount of our money is gone and they cannot afford to pay it back.


Yep. Pretty much what I said on my posts. Take your money out of intersango! it is not a question of whether they sent a wire last Friday or not like somebody was saying earlier, but whether Bitcoin Consultancy will be able to stay afloat after the lawsuits that are going to undoubtedly begin to fly (and trust me, they won't be able to). As soon as the FSA investigates what they are doing with local bank deposits and withdrawals, they are done. I know at least two BIG PLAYERS that are going to release the legal hounds over this, and as soon as the authorities start to probe for proper licensing, etc. the whole operation will be dismantled, just as the Bitcoin Consultancy website was taken offline to cover their asses legally.

Even if you don't believe Intersango will be in hot waters, and everything will be dandy, can you still trust them with the security of your money?

Like I said, the form is just a stalling tactic while the lawyers prepare a proper defense, and by the way I have good information that Bitcoin Consultancy owns a significant part of Bitcoinica! THEY WERE PAID WITH EQUITY. Do NOT believe for a second that they are just "hired consultants". Do you really believe they will put the significant amount of work and effort into a competitor's website for a few bucks? OR will be given full access to the system for some bucks? NO FOLKS, they were given a stake on Bitcoinica. The idea was at some point to merge the intersango / Bitcoinica brands under the new Bitcoinica LP to have some sort of proper licensing, since what they are doing in the UK is dubious at best.

Please note also that nothing I have said so far has been refuted by any of the parties involved.

Since apparently the "careful drafting" or a response didn't work, here is a few questions that need answer TODAY:

- WHO owns Bitcoinica (list of all beneficiaries involved with percentages).
- WHO controls the Bitcoinica Consultancy sock puppet, and from whom you need authorization to speak?
- WAS the database erased or not? Are there offline backups?
- WHAT is the date when refunds will begin to be processed (I know this is not going to happen, but I want to hear it).
- MR. CHARLIE SHREM: Earlier you said you are working closely with Bitcoinica to get people paid, and that you know who owns this enterprise. Since you decided to share this with the world, and we are receiving complete silence and stalling tactics from Bitcoinica, I think it is your moral duty to the Bitcoin community to release the information you have at this time.

Waiting for some REAL answers ...

GOX SUX COX!
The true faces of the Bitcoinica / Intersango SCAM! - Bitcoin was born in the shad0ws, for the shad0ws.
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May 23, 2012, 10:53:25 AM
 #1126

I have about 700 BTC in bitcoinica. I will be willing to sell this debt to anyone for a reasonable price. Need the BTC to be in play right now.

Thanks.

I'll give you 1 Satoshi. Roll Eyes

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May 23, 2012, 11:04:37 AM
 #1127

anyone interested in given me 80btc now and get 100btc as soon as bitcoinica pays out?
just contact me Wink

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83005.0

i was so dumb to take all my btc to bitconica.

EDIT: please no long text; just state when we get our money.


I have about 700 BTC in bitcoinica. I will be willing to sell this debt to anyone for a reasonable price. Need the BTC to be in play right now.

Thanks.


This subprime debt reselling is really interesting, but can you do that? it's Bitcoinica who owes you and you are the "creditor", there is no third party with ownership of a contract to sell. What guarantees can you (generally) provide?

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May 23, 2012, 11:07:19 AM
 #1128

I just want to point out that this doen't make any sense.
During this transition period we were hesitant to conflict with Zhou's statements, however we have decided that a clarification is necessary.

Much of the information available is misleading.  We will be issuing a statement later today to clarify the situation.

Is this your clarification? Sad

We had written a long post however we are prevented from posting it due to limitations.
We are very sorry. We are trying to resolve this matter however we are limited in our capacities.

It's not very claryifying, to say the least.
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May 23, 2012, 11:18:24 AM
 #1129

When bitcoinica gives me the BTC I will pass it along. I will use my reputation for collateral. Some people trust me and some people do not. If someone does trust me, and wants to buy the debt. Please let me know.

That's ok. I meant generally, it sounds like an interesting business model. Well, it's basically debt reselling without bank or contract, so I'd expect risk premium to be very high unless there is a special trust relationship involved.

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arby
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May 23, 2012, 11:30:26 AM
 #1130

shad0wbitz, I do not know what to say, you may need to see a doctor maybe?

maybe you can tell us in more detail how much money you need to receive from bitcoinica?

you are screaming for some time now to people to take their money out of intersango

also you are clearly predicting the future, maybe you can start making money from that, and forget about this bitcoin nonsense?

do you also believe the world will end in 2012?

intersango seems to have a very strange plan to 'take off', since i have received again some money from them today.

this forum I believe has moderators, and I understand this incident is very annoying for some people, but allowing people to post death threats? and also a lot of crap without any real evidence?

Jabber/XMPP: arby@darkness.su
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May 23, 2012, 12:04:26 PM
 #1131

shad0wbitz, I do not know what to say, you may need to see a doctor maybe?

I might need to see a doctor? You might need to see a cognitive specialist since you sound fucking retarded. Have you been following this thread and the empty promises from "Bitcoinica Consultancy"? Or perhaps the fact that they have not refuted a single thing I have said? Maybe you missed the fact that not a single cent has been refunded yet?

I am glad you are getting wires from them by the hour, but do yourself a favor: stop the shilling because you are coming off real fucking stupid right now.

What I have with them is not of your retarded business by the way.

GOX SUX COX!
The true faces of the Bitcoinica / Intersango SCAM! - Bitcoin was born in the shad0ws, for the shad0ws.
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May 23, 2012, 12:19:17 PM
 #1132

When bitcoinica gives me the BTC I will pass it along. I will use my reputation for collateral. Some people trust me and some people do not. If someone does trust me, and wants to buy the debt. Please let me know.

That's ok. I meant generally, it sounds like an interesting business model. Well, it's basically debt reselling without bank or contract, so I'd expect risk premium to be very high unless there is a special trust relationship involved.

I doubt you would have to worry about Goat passing along the funds, the problem is that he's probably never going to get them back from Bitcoinica in the first place.
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May 23, 2012, 12:33:29 PM
 #1133

We had written a long post however we are prevented from posting it due to limitations. We are very sorry. We are trying to resolve this matter however we are limited in our capacities.

you know you could break a really long post into two or three smaller ones
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May 23, 2012, 12:55:30 PM
 #1134

For those of you who are interested there is a new bet on this issue:

Bitcoinica will announce full refund payouts on or before June 10, 2012

Bets of Bitcoin
http://betsofbitco.in/
HorseRider
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May 23, 2012, 12:59:58 PM
 #1135

Is bitcoinica owned by a limited partnership? If so, there will be a GP who should take all the responsibilities. I'm very glad that all the people are real and we can sell their house for paying back the lost money.

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May 23, 2012, 01:00:45 PM
 #1136

Is bitcoinica owned by a limited partnership? If so, there will be a GP who should take all the responsibilities. I'm very glad that all the people are real and we can sell their house foe paying back the lost money.
+1
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May 23, 2012, 01:05:18 PM
 #1137

...
Much of the information available is misleading.  We will be issuing a statement later today to clarify the situation.

Watching !!!

Bitcoinica Consulting / intersango doesnt use the atomic clock, they use the stall-for-long-enough-to-get-away clock so dont hold your breath.

Well in their defense it hasn't been a day yet

See they lost so much of depositor's funds they are fleeing on a spaceship which has now reached relativistic speeds.  Due to the effect of time dilation, from their frame of reference only 18 minutes have past.  The bad news is the ship is still accelerating so although they will make their announcement in one day from our point of view three or four centuries (the math is tough to pin down) will have passed.
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May 23, 2012, 01:15:10 PM
 #1138

All the intersango are cowards. They don't dare to tell everyone what happened since the very beginning. They let Zhou tong talk for them. They just chose to hide and avoid the public.

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May 23, 2012, 01:18:57 PM
 #1139

Not talking is what gets your ass sued. Being up front and honest is a better way to avoid lawsuits.

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May 23, 2012, 01:22:46 PM
 #1140

All the intersango are cowards. They don't dare to tell everyone what happened since the very beginning. They let Zhou tong talk for them. They just chose to hide and avoid the public.

no the owner of bitcoinica told them not to talk... if they do talk they might get sued by the owner of bitcoinica...

intersango and zhou should not be the target here... 

I agree, it's inevitable though.

Not talking is what gets your ass sued. Being up front and honest is a better way to avoid lawsuits.

Depends on what they're deciding to do. At first I thought it was just incompetency, but now I'm beginning to suspect it's something more, just based on how long it's been with no real news besides what zhoutong told us, and now they've shut him up.

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