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Author Topic: [Emergency ANN] Bitcoinica site is taken offline for security investigation  (Read 201819 times)
elux
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May 13, 2012, 12:17:50 PM
 #581


We are building an account claim page. You can submit your account information, financial information (balances) and trading information to verify your identity. We will then match with the records we have. If they have matched, we will send Bitcoin balance to your nominated Bitcoin address within 24 hours and USD balance with unrealized P/L to your email as a Mt. Gox code. If you sent the funds to us via Wire (i.e. you don't use Mt. Gox at all), we will try our best to fulfill wire transfer requests.


Oh dear, this again? Gox June 2011. Bitcoinica May 2012.
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May 13, 2012, 12:19:40 PM
 #582

Were any personal documents leaked during the intrusion that could potentially be used to make fraudulent claims against accounts?

BTW for historical references here is the original post on hackernews:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2973313

Your AML information is secure, and everything sent to verification@bitcoinica.com is secure too.

If your account is small, we're happy to proceed without additional evidence. However, for larger accounts with AML documents submitted (even those pending review ones), we may require the documents.

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May 13, 2012, 12:21:21 PM
 #583

Will bitcoinica open again?


18jL18iH96BBhwUCQn27FQp7ocodSxvJAB
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May 13, 2012, 12:25:12 PM
 #584

Sounds good, zhou! Best of luck for getting back on track asap!

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May 13, 2012, 12:34:37 PM
 #585

Thx for the good news, zhou.

I would be happy to put a lot of money again into bitcoinica once you have worked on it to have the best security possible. You should take some time to make sure the security will be top notch once you start the site again.

speculate on the mtgox price - http://www.btcoracle.com/
buy Mastercoin - http://masterxchange.com
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May 13, 2012, 01:01:01 PM
 #586

Why does the wallet even need to reside on the server?

But I'd like to know if it is usual for a 18K BTC transaction to take place without review?

I mean, if I goto the bank to withdrawal 50K+ USD, I would expect a little more scrutiny.

A stepped system of checks, I believe would have, if not stopped, delayed it.


As some people have said, there should be a hold on large or unusual withdrawls from a hot wallet.

The hacker stole the private keys.  The private keys don't know or care what restrictions your front end might have.
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May 13, 2012, 01:03:33 PM
 #587

As some people have said, there should be a hold on large or unusual withdrawls from a hot wallet.
Then it wouldn't be a hot wallet at all.
A hot wallet would be btc immediately available for withdrawl. In this case, how often would a transaction moving 18k btc or even just 1k btc be exucuted? Almost never. So you could have transactions past a certain limit be manually approved.

So hot wallet contains keys.  Steal the keys and you steal 100% of the funds. It is entirely possible that the site DOES have a manual review process for large withdrawals.  It doesn't really matter when the attacker steals the private keys.
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May 13, 2012, 01:25:26 PM
 #588

I have repeatedly told people that Bitcoinica is a scam and that Bitcoinica staff should be banned from the forums.

Maybe now people will actually listen.

Bitcoinica is a regulated entity, verifiable by government records. We are one of the most legitimate businesses in Bitcoin community, by any standard.

What is it with all the anonymous/pseudonymous guys on this forum repeatedly attacking every NAMED (and easily verified) individual and company and labelling every project run by those most legitimate operators as a scam?

Insane! Grow a brain or something.



+1

Calling Bitcoinica a scam after they get robbed is like calling a woman a whore after getting raped. Have some class, and contribute something positive to the problem instead of busting out the S word just because something went wrong.

How quickly people forget that last time this happened, Bitcoinica personally reimbursed all the funds that had been stolen. That was a milestone event for Bitcoin, I think Zhou and his team deserve at least a little professional respect and mature response from the community.

Zhou - I'm very sorry to hear of this incident and I hope you guys are able to power through this, learn, improve, and grow.

+1

Wish there was a +1 button Smiley
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May 13, 2012, 01:33:36 PM
 #589

I have repeatedly told people that Bitcoinica is a scam and that Bitcoinica staff should be banned from the forums.

Maybe now people will actually listen.

Bitcoinica is a regulated entity, verifiable by government records. We are one of the most legitimate businesses in Bitcoin community, by any standard.

What is it with all the anonymous/pseudonymous guys on this forum repeatedly attacking every NAMED (and easily verified) individual and company and labelling every project run by those most legitimate operators as a scam?

Insane! Grow a brain or something.



+1

Calling Bitcoinica a scam after they get robbed is like calling a woman a whore after getting raped. Have some class, and contribute something positive to the problem instead of busting out the S word just because something went wrong.

How quickly people forget that last time this happened, Bitcoinica personally reimbursed all the funds that had been stolen. That was a milestone event for Bitcoin, I think Zhou and his team deserve at least a little professional respect and mature response from the community.

Zhou - I'm very sorry to hear of this incident and I hope you guys are able to power through this, learn, improve, and grow.

+1

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May 13, 2012, 01:44:26 PM
 #590

Where people get this strange idea that all you have to do is invent a legal fiction and somehow you can hide behind it and offload your responsibility on to it.  Huh The state sure has done a swell job in indoctrinating people with this kind of lunacy.  Roll Eyes

I'm sorry to break it to you, but the company is the owner and the owner is the company. And if an owner wants to hide behind a legal fiction and somehow pretend he is not liable I'm simply not going to do business with him.

Which part of "limited liability company" you don't understand?

You seem to completely not understand the concept on which practically all of world's companies (except partnerships) are based on.

The company is not the owner.

Liability of the owners is limited to their investment in the company.

So what basically you said is that you are not going to do business with any companies - because all companies function like that - the owner is not liable.

A company is a person. Accept this fact.

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May 13, 2012, 01:50:45 PM
 #591

Where people get this strange idea that all you have to do is invent a legal fiction and somehow you can hide behind it and offload your responsibility on to it.  Huh The state sure has done a swell job in indoctrinating people with this kind of lunacy.  Roll Eyes

I'm sorry to break it to you, but the company is the owner and the owner is the company. And if an owner wants to hide behind a legal fiction and somehow pretend he is not liable I'm simply not going to do business with him.

Which part of "limited liability company" you don't understand?

You seem to completely not understand the concept on which practically all of world's companies (except partnerships) are based on.

The company is not the owner.

Liability of the owners is limited to their investment in the company.

So what basically you said is that you are not going to do business with any companies - because all companies function like that - the owner is not liable.

A company is a person. Accept this fact.

..A company is a person, only in AMERICA and other white(?)-trash governments.

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May 13, 2012, 02:07:14 PM
 #592

I'm really sorry that this has happened but I just want to ask the community somthing.

Andre from worldbitcoinexchange had an intersango email address. his site goes down and no money is returned. I loose 500AUD  then intersango buys bicoinica and 2 weeks later it goes down! I dont know these guys and dont know what they do and presume they are big on these forums is there a dodgy connection here or am I connecting dots that dont exist?

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May 13, 2012, 02:12:13 PM
 #593

I'm really sorry that this has happened but I just want to ask the community somthing.

Andre from worldbitcoinexchange had an intersango email address. his site goes down and no money is returned. I loose 500AUD  then intersango buys bicoinica and 2 weeks later it goes down! I dont know these guys and dont know what they do and presume they are big on these forums is there a dodgy connection here or am I connecting dots that dont exist?



It is probably more along the lines of "those who do nothing make no mistakes".

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May 13, 2012, 02:15:08 PM
 #594

I'm really sorry that this has happened but I just want to ask the community somthing.

Andre from worldbitcoinexchange had an intersango email address. his site goes down and no money is returned. I loose 500AUD  then intersango buys bicoinica and 2 weeks later it goes down! I dont know these guys and dont know what they do and presume they are big on these forums is there a dodgy connection here or am I connecting dots that dont exist?



It is probably more along the lines of "those who do nothing make no mistakes".


This is the sad part of any community based on trust and no legal documentation to work with when shit hits the fan. When money is involved trust means nothing it seems since essentially when the numbers get big enough that trust could and probably would just be used to blanket corruption.

Im amazed that when such huge theft/losses etc. occur from big-players in the community the overwhelming outcry is to give them a chance to make it right even when it happens over and over and eventually as stated by jaminunit those in charge simply dont pay up at all.

Im not refering to bitcoinica alone here but to so many other big-player theft/losses that happened over the last 12 months.

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May 13, 2012, 02:21:47 PM
 #595

I'm really sorry that this has happened but I just want to ask the community somthing.

Andre from worldbitcoinexchange had an intersango email address. his site goes down and no money is returned. I loose 500AUD  then intersango buys bicoinica and 2 weeks later it goes down! I dont know these guys and dont know what they do and presume they are big on these forums is there a dodgy connection here or am I connecting dots that dont exist?



Sorry, but i don't think Andre had anything to do with the intersango you are thinking of.
https://www.worldbitcoinexchange.com/?page=help says his email address is support@intersango.com.AU <-- notice the AU there? More: http://intersango.com.au redirects to https://www.worldbitcoinexchange.com
I would say he just found it appropriate(?) to register that domain because he was using the Intersango open source code in his exchange.
Also I don't remember seeing any mention of Andre or World Bitcoin Exchange in the Bitcoin Consultancy website or on Intersango.com. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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May 13, 2012, 02:32:00 PM
 #596

I'm really sorry that this has happened but I just want to ask the community somthing.

Andre from worldbitcoinexchange had an intersango email address. his site goes down and no money is returned. I loose 500AUD  then intersango buys bicoinica and 2 weeks later it goes down! I dont know these guys and dont know what they do and presume they are big on these forums is there a dodgy connection here or am I connecting dots that dont exist?



It is probably more along the lines of "those who do nothing make no mistakes".


This is the sad part of any community based on trust and no legal documentation to work with when shit hits the fan. When money is involved trust means nothing it seems since essentially when the numbers get big enough that trust could and probably would just be used to blanket corruption.

Im amazed that when such huge theft/losses etc. occur from big-players in the community the overwhelming outcry is to give them a chance to make it right even when it happens over and over and eventually as stated by jaminunit those in charge simply dont pay up at all.

Im not refering to bitcoinica alone here but to so many other big-player theft/losses that happened over the last 12 months.

That's why it's important to not over-generalize and throw those "big players" in a one pot. The community gives people a second chance who made things right once before. Shit happens and as I see it Zhou has more integrity than many businessmen on the planet. I just hope the intersango guys do as well.

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May 13, 2012, 02:36:01 PM
 #597

Why don't the Intersango guys, the new owners, actually fucking post in the thread for once?
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May 13, 2012, 02:39:31 PM
 #598

Why don't the Intersango guys, the new owners, actually fucking post in the thread for once?

+1

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May 13, 2012, 03:18:49 PM
 #599

I'm really sorry that this has happened but I just want to ask the community somthing.

Andre from worldbitcoinexchange had an intersango email address. his site goes down and no money is returned. I loose 500AUD  then intersango buys bicoinica and 2 weeks later it goes down! I dont know these guys and dont know what they do and presume they are big on these forums is there a dodgy connection here or am I connecting dots that dont exist?




While I can't speak to any of your events, I have serious questions about this situation.

"intersangoed" is how I feel about it, I don't feel like I'm getting "zhoutonged"

I've seen, in the past, questions raised by exchange owners after the intersango crew "penetration tested" their sites. This raised a red flag, but I trusted them anyhow.

It seems somewhat suspicious to me to just take over this business, and then immediately have a security event that is "significant enough to justify closing down the business and force liquidating the entire customer base"  is awfully convenient if youd like to restructure the finances that you've recently acquired. It's also very convenient to have allowed a security flaw as gaping as this before "actually assuming complete control"

I'm not saying that this is the case, but I can't believe that everyone is naive enough to immediately blame a kid for stealing his way out of a company, or "being stupid enough to have a hot wallet that big" Didn't Intersango do due diligence before acquiring a stake?

I also can't believe that everyone is naive enough to think that just because someone is a "core bitcoin developer" that they're somehow above reproach. While these guys may indeed be 100% honest, how are we to truly know that?

How many times will we trust these guys? After multiple security breaches of their own, it could be that they're just not as good as everyone would like to think. It could be that one or more of them is less than honest. At this point, I have no way of knowing I can truly trust them. (regardless of whether the problem is incompetence or dishonesty)

How is it that a US$100K loss is enough to close the business and liquidate the entire customer base? This just doesn't make sense. If it does, show us the money. Transparency is the only way to true trust. And that means a 100% independent audit of the whole situation. But, if it's dishonest, the books are already cooked.

Either that, or keep running the business, and don't liquidate the customer positions (unless the customer insists on regaining access to funds asap)

It shouldn't take weeks to get this back up and running. There's something not right. I'm not sure what it is, but I don't see people asking a lot of the right questions.

How much money is being cleared by bitcionica by closing out all the positions? Show us the money. But, there's no way to independently verify any of it, really. So. Hm. Anyone willing to tally losses from this forced liquidation

The short of it is anyone would probably be a fool to trust these guys with any more money. They were knowingly negligent, at the very least, in this. They knew what they bought, and they failed to secure it. And now the customers are suffering the loss. For their gross negligence.

If you had a position at bitcoinica, how much will you lose? (or make, but I'm betting the minority are in a profit position at any given point given the astronomical spread)

I'm pretty sure I'm not willing to trust them with more money when they get back up and running. I've seen others refer to bitcionica as the ticking time bomb in bitcoin. I'm thinking this new crew running it is the real time bomb. They appear to be either incompetent, negligent, or of criminal intent. Without them making any kind of real statement, I have nothing to refute those notions. That is unfortunate.  

 I'm pretty sure I'm not willing to put more money in to find out which problem I have with these guys, and I do know one thing for damn sure: They're not communicating any better than zhoutong has historically, and that's enough to make me not want to do business with them in the future.

Absent while there is an ongoing security incident in their company is completely unacceptable. Leaving the response to a major security incident to the 17yo former owner is, um....pretty pathetic, at best, and probably suggests that there is something more going on than meets the eye. This should raise serious red flags IMO.

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May 13, 2012, 03:21:09 PM
 #600

claims that Bitcoinica has been bought out by Intersango at this point is pure speculation and highly doubtful tbh

Past announcement  hinted that Intersango team was brought on board for dev and or management/administrative position only
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