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Author Topic: [Emergency ANN] Bitcoinica site is taken offline for security investigation  (Read 201731 times)
mahingupta
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May 24, 2012, 10:29:08 AM
 #1281

We will take what Zhou has proposed into consideration and discuss it with relevant parties. The issues of misrepresentation were not amenable despite numerous talks. Our silence was called into question the same time we were being misrepresented. Despite our best efforts this was unavoidable. We apologise but we are happy that Zhou has stated many things which, if there is full disclosure, will be shown to be lies and misrepresentations.

With full disclosure I believe our actions will be understood. Without full disclosure, our reputation may remain damaged. If that is the case at least we can say we spoke up.

I have no knowledge of the "full disclosure" you're mentioning. So I shouldn't comment on it either.

As I'm officially out of the dispute resolution process, these are the things we know:

1. I play no part in Bitcoinica. If you get your money late, it's Bitcoinica Consultancy's fault. You're unlikely to never get the money because they are not paying the bills anyway (so they aren't able to screw up on the financial side).
2. We have all seen how Bitcoinica Consultancy has handled the issue in the entire process. You should make your own judgement in your future business with them. (Disclaimer: I provide no advise.)
3. I have some funds in my own Bitcoinica account and I have filed the claim. I will take legal actions against Bitcoinica LP if my claim cannot be processed within 30 days.

This is going to Hawana now...

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May 24, 2012, 10:31:24 AM
 #1282

We will take what Zhou has proposed into consideration and discuss it with relevant parties. The issues of misrepresentation were not amenable despite numerous talks. Our silence was called into question the same time we were being misrepresented. Despite our best efforts this was unavoidable. We apologise but we are happy that Zhou has stated many things which, if there is full disclosure, will be shown to be lies and misrepresentations.

With full disclosure I believe our actions will be understood. Without full disclosure, our reputation may remain damaged. If that is the case at least we can say we spoke up.

I swear to god that your posts sound like the robotic non-responses which the "MtGox Support" account posts - and they're just as infuriating.  Do your organisation a huge favour and get someone who can write plain English to compose your forum posts.

Nobody cares about you.  They care only about where the buck stops in terms of recovering their money and they want to hear from the person responsible for that - not some nameless, faceless intermediary.  If the shadowy owners aren't prepared to reveal themselves, then they need to have their lawyer or their accountant in here speaking for them, not a screen-name with no identity and no authority.

Quote
I think also this is why they are now hiding details from you, because you are not a team player any more.

Pontius Pilate was a team player.  The "team" purposely hid the change of ownership from Bitcoinica customers.  They still refuse to answer questions about who now owns Bitcoinica and they absolutely deserve any suspicion and negative assumptions their deception has created.  Do you really think they would have hidden this information if they thought the Bitcoin community would embrace the new owners?

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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May 24, 2012, 10:38:52 AM
 #1283

1. Unfortunately Zhou himself has delayed greatly the reclaim process.
2. We hope that users wait until there is more disclosure to judge what has happened.
3. We do apologise for the turn this discourse has taken. However, we hope to show how important this disclosure is and our dissatisfaction with how things were being handled and continue to be handled.
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May 24, 2012, 10:41:44 AM
 #1284

I do not think it is up to them to disclose who the owner is, that would be really irresponsible? Would you like your employees going around and disclosing personal information about you? If you sign an agreement, and then you decide not to follow it, why would anyone trust you after that? You need to use the same standards when analysing any situation, not just particular cases.

The owner I think decides such things, and not the employees, and I understand they are just working there, not actually owning the company, its basically not their money.

Quote
Pontius Pilate was a team player.  The "team" purposely hid the change of ownership from Bitcoinica customers.  They still refuse to answer questions about who now owns Bitcoinica and they absolutely deserve any suspicion and negative assumptions their deception has created.  Do you really think they would have hidden this information if they thought the Bitcoin community would embrace the new owners?

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May 24, 2012, 10:43:51 AM
 #1285

Bitcoinica Consultancy,

At this point,  I suspect most Bitcoinica users would prefer to see the claim process turned over to Zhou.
He gave you a very generous offer.  He takes care of everything,  while you just have to sit back and watch.

I don't see what reason you would have to not take him up on his offer.

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May 24, 2012, 10:45:07 AM
 #1286

Edited to add:

1. Unfortunately Zhou himself has delayed greatly the reclaim process.

How exactly has someone who reportedly has no access, done that?  Are you claiming he has deleted data?  I can't see any other way in which he could delay the claims process.

2. We hope that users wait until there is more disclosure to judge what has happened.

You seem to think we, at present, care one jot about disclosure.  What difference will it make to us and our access to our money if you were all to publish your chat logs right now?  Answer: none.

You are being judged on the number of days that go by without access to our money; without explanation of why we have no access to our money; and without statements of facts.  You addition of mud slinging is making neither you nor Zhoutong (despite what he might think about restoring his reputation) look good.

3. We do apologise for the turn this discourse has taken. However, we hope to show how important this disclosure is and our dissatisfaction with how things were being handled and continue to be handled.

Apologies imply regret; regret implies a wish that something hadn't happened; and yet you continue this public mud slinging.  The pair of you seem to know nothing about professionalism.  Customers are allowed to be noisy, ignorant, irrational pigs.  Professional companies are not.

See below for the questions you should be answering.




By "we want information", we didn't mean we wanted to see your internal squabbles over who's fault it all is, and who signed what piece of paper.  Go and get some lawyers and a court case and sort it out between yourselves.

What we want to know is:
  • Whether you have a database backup?
  • Whether you have control of the remaining 'cold wallet' deposits?
  • Whether you have control of the remaining USD deposits
  • How much of the customer-owned funds are left?
  • Why is the claim process taking so long?  We all still know our passwords and if you've got a copy of the hashes of those passwords, we can ID ourselves.  Surely a small web page to let us log in and look at our balances is about a days work?  Even if we can't withdraw them yet?
  • What is the name of the person or persons (not a shell company) responsible for Bitcoinica's debts?  Note: the person responsible for the damned I.T. cupboard is an internal matter of your own.

These are simple factual questions.  They require no mud to be slung and revealing them can't possibly be covered in an NDA, since the NDA wouldn't have predicted this theft.

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May 24, 2012, 11:02:21 AM
 #1287

I do not think it is up to them to disclose who the owner is, that would be really irresponsible? Would you like your employees going around and disclosing personal information about you? If you sign an agreement, and then you decide not to follow it, why would anyone trust you after that? You need to use the same standards when analysing any situation, not just particular cases.

The owner I think decides such things, and not the employees, and I understand they are just working there, not actually owning the company, its basically not their money.

Quote
Pontius Pilate was a team player.  The "team" purposely hid the change of ownership from Bitcoinica customers.  They still refuse to answer questions about who now owns Bitcoinica and they absolutely deserve any suspicion and negative assumptions their deception has created.  Do you really think they would have hidden this information if they thought the Bitcoin community would embrace the new owners?

The new owners are responsible for getting money back to the customers.  If they refuse to reveal themselves to the customers, they have no right to expect the trust of their user-base.  By hiding behind intermediaries who have no authority, they are failing to display leadership.  They are failing to provide any evidence that they are even able to cover the losses.  People have no reason whatsoever to trust the new owners right now because the new owners won't come forward and present their credentials.  If they feel that they must hide behind someone, it should be their lawyer or their accountant - someone who is on the hook for any public statements made on behalf of the owners.  People have no reason to trust Bitcoinica Consultancy either.  Right now the "official" statements have about as much credibility as those which came "from the desk of Tom Williams" following the MyBitcoin debacle.

Someone needs to assume leadership here and that needs to be someone identifiable and with actual authority.  If the owner's not willing to step up to the plate and personally guarantee that customers will be made whole, they only have themselves to blame if they cannot salvage the organisation's reputation.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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May 24, 2012, 11:07:10 AM
 #1288

....
People have no reason to trust Bitcoinica Consultancy either.  Right now the "official" statements have about as much credibility as those which came "from the desk of Tom Williams" following the MyBitcoin debacle.
...
Could it be that this Tom Williams is the new owner?
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May 24, 2012, 11:17:11 AM
 #1289

Edited to add:

1. Unfortunately Zhou himself has delayed greatly the reclaim process.

How exactly has someone who reportedly has no access, done that?  Are you claiming he has deleted data?  I can't see any other way in which he could delay the claims process.

2. We hope that users wait until there is more disclosure to judge what has happened.

You seem to think we, at present, care one jot about disclosure.  What difference will it make to us and our access to our money if you were all to publish your chat logs right now?  Answer: none.

You are being judged on the number of days that go by without access to our money; without explanation of why we have no access to our money; and without statements of facts.  You addition of mud slinging is making neither you nor Zhoutong (despite what he might think about restoring his reputation) look good.

3. We do apologise for the turn this discourse has taken. However, we hope to show how important this disclosure is and our dissatisfaction with how things were being handled and continue to be handled.

Apologies imply regret; regret implies a wish that something hadn't happened; and yet you continue this public mud slinging.  The pair of you seem to know nothing about professionalism.  Customers are allowed to be noisy, ignorant, irrational pigs.  Professional companies are not.

See below for the questions you should be answering.




By "we want information", we didn't mean we wanted to see your internal squabbles over who's fault it all is, and who signed what piece of paper.  Go and get some lawyers and a court case and sort it out between yourselves.

What we want to know is:
  • Whether you have a database backup?
  • Whether you have control of the remaining 'cold wallet' deposits?
  • Whether you have control of the remaining USD deposits
  • How much of the customer-owned funds are left?
  • Why is the claim process taking so long?  We all still know our passwords and if you've got a copy of the hashes of those passwords, we can ID ourselves.  Surely a small web page to let us log in and look at our balances is about a days work?  Even if we can't withdraw them yet?
  • What is the name of the person or persons (not a shell company) responsible for Bitcoinica's debts?  Note: the person responsible for the damned I.T. cupboard is an internal matter of your own.

These are simple factual questions.  They require no mud to be slung and revealing them can't possibly be covered in an NDA, since the NDA wouldn't have predicted this theft.


+1
This is exactly what is needed.
And if those answers will not be given by a reasonable deadline which to me would be 24 hours, people affected could consider filing a class action lawsuit.
And if the ownership / responsibility is not revealed to do that, could get a court order to reveal this quickly.

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May 24, 2012, 11:22:37 AM
 #1290

The owners are responsible, not intersango, or other people that seem to take the blame on this thread, and I think you knew exactly what I was referring to when I was talking about the 'team', but just to better prove your point decided to semi-twist my words. About the trust, yes, you are right, nobody should trust these people, but would that change anything? Will your money come back if you dont trust them anymore? Will your money come back if you start issuing death threats? Will your money come back if you eat eachother?

The only one enjoying this show is the 'hacker'.

I do not think it is up to them to disclose who the owner is, that would be really irresponsible? Would you like your employees going around and disclosing personal information about you? If you sign an agreement, and then you decide not to follow it, why would anyone trust you after that? You need to use the same standards when analysing any situation, not just particular cases.

The owner I think decides such things, and not the employees, and I understand they are just working there, not actually owning the company, its basically not their money.

Quote
Pontius Pilate was a team player.  The "team" purposely hid the change of ownership from Bitcoinica customers.  They still refuse to answer questions about who now owns Bitcoinica and they absolutely deserve any suspicion and negative assumptions their deception has created.  Do you really think they would have hidden this information if they thought the Bitcoin community would embrace the new owners?

The new owners are responsible for getting money back to the customers.  If they refuse to reveal themselves to the customers, they have no right to expect the trust of their user-base.  By hiding behind intermediaries who have no authority, they are failing to display leadership.  They are failing to provide any evidence that they are even able to cover the losses.  People have no reason whatsoever to trust the new owners right now because the new owners won't come forward and present their credentials.  If they feel that they must hide behind someone, it should be their lawyer or their accountant - someone who is on the hook for any public statements made on behalf of the owners.  People have no reason to trust Bitcoinica Consultancy either.  Right now the "official" statements have about as much credibility as those which came "from the desk of Tom Williams" following the MyBitcoin debacle.

Someone needs to assume leadership here and that needs to be someone identifiable and with actual authority.  If the owner's not willing to step up to the plate and personally guarantee that customers will be made whole, they only have themselves to blame if they cannot salvage the organisation's reputation.

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May 24, 2012, 11:27:47 AM
 #1291

Bitcoinica Consultancy: You are full of shit when you say you already dealt with a good number of the more simple claims.
My friend who has a whole bitcoin(lol) in your service still haven't got a response after he filled your stupid claim form.
I guess 1 open position with a 1 BTC balance is fucking complicated for you to deal with.
Also, one question my friend asked me: Where are you going to return his Bitcoin to if you don't even ask for a Bitcoin address?

Just stop lying.

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May 24, 2012, 11:28:58 AM
 #1292

This is why, as I stated above, some progress and/or some information about these claims should be constantly updated on their website.

Bitcoinica Consultancy: You are full of shit when you say you already dealt with a good number of the more simple claims.
My friend who has a whole bitcoin(lol) in your service still haven't got a response after he filled your stupid claim form.
I guess 1 open position with a 1 BTC balance is fucking complicated for you to deal with.
Also, one question my friend asked me: Where are you going to return his Bitcoin to if you don't even ask for a Bitcoin address?

Just stop lying.

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May 24, 2012, 11:36:55 AM
 #1293

....
People have no reason to trust Bitcoinica Consultancy either.  Right now the "official" statements have about as much credibility as those which came "from the desk of Tom Williams" following the MyBitcoin debacle.
...
Could it be that this Tom Williams is the new owner?


I doubt it.  MyBitcoin was registered in Nevis for a lot of reasons, but New Zealand is hardly a haven which is beyond the reach of national and international authorities.

Patrick Hartnett would probably be a good person to give people an idea of what remedies are available under New Zealand law if Bitcoinica doesn't make a good faith effort to return people's funds.

One thing which I can't recall Bitcoinica addressing and which I hope Zhou can shed some light on is the extent to which law enforcement has been involved in investigating this incident.  No legitimate company would not involve them in the investigation.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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May 24, 2012, 11:38:54 AM
 #1294

And the dam has finally burst..

If I had any control: I would like Patrick to be in the team. Donald should resign. Amir didn't involve much so I don't make any judgement.

Zhou, why would you want Patrick on your team after you said that it was specifically his e-mail server being compromised which led this whole fiasco?


What we want to know is:
  • Whether you have a database backup?
  • Whether you have control of the remaining 'cold wallet' deposits?
  • Whether you have control of the remaining USD deposits
  • How much of the customer-owned funds are left?
  • Why is the claim process taking so long?  We all still know our passwords and if you've got a copy of the hashes of those passwords, we can ID ourselves.  Surely a small web page to let us log in and look at our balances is about a days work?  Even if we can't withdraw them yet?
  • What is the name of the person or persons (not a shell company) responsible for Bitcoinica's debts?  Note: the person responsible for the damned I.T. cupboard is an internal matter of your own.

+1

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May 24, 2012, 11:57:32 AM
 #1295

Bitcoinica Consultancy: You are full of shit when you say you already dealt with a good number of the more simple claims.
My friend who has a whole bitcoin(lol) in your service still haven't got a response after he filled your stupid claim form.
I guess 1 open position with a 1 BTC balance is fucking complicated for you to deal with.
Also, one question my friend asked me: Where are you going to return his Bitcoin to if you don't even ask for a Bitcoin address?

Just stop lying.

I'm not sure were you got that. Please show us the post so it can be altered. This is what we said:

Right now, we believe the best thing for all parties involved is that we continue with the reclaims process. We have investigated many of the claims but have many left. There were still claims being filed as of at least yesterday. Our intention is to have a secure platform where users can claim their accounts and everyone will be able to claims their accounts once the claims process is finished. We cannot offer a concrete timeline for exactly when this will happen but we are working as fast as possible. Please be patient. We are truly sorry for the grave inconveniences.

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May 24, 2012, 12:01:41 PM
 #1296

I beat it guess. What does this red selection frame? This means that a hacker - the same "mystery investor"! Made a backup on own disk. Then, remove the server. He is the only owner of the database! Now he - BOSS. But that's not enough. What would need to get more - you need to make Bitcoinica work as before ... Make a profit for the boss. But you need the consent of previous owners (cool wallet from them). While the hacker and former owners did not agree - money is not returned. I suggest a compromise quickly. Reputation at stake. In any case, we, the users do not lose anything, just run bitcoinica will be an expert on security. Grin


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May 24, 2012, 12:12:42 PM
 #1297

Or is not true? Yes or no?

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May 24, 2012, 12:15:00 PM
 #1298

I beat it guess. What does this red selection frame? This means that a hacker - the same "mystery investor"! Made a backup on own disk. Then, remove the server. He is the only owner of the database! Now he - BOSS. But that's not enough. What would need to get more - you need to make Bitcoinica work as before ... Make a profit for the boss. But you need the consent of previous owners (cool wallet from them). While the hacker and former owners did not agree - money is not returned. I suggest a compromise quickly. Reputation at stake. In any case, we, the users do not lose anything, just run bitcoinica will be an expert on security. Grin


you know that this is highly likely to be fake pic, right?

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May 24, 2012, 12:18:55 PM
 #1299

Your answer is either YES, NO, or NDA.

Please!

Guys can someone please pull public information from NZ companies house (even if it costs to get some by paying 10 dollars or so) and post it here.


Certification of Incorporation: http://www.societies.govt.nz/scanned-images/17/BC10060962017.pdf

Application for registration of a Limited Partnership: http://www.societies.govt.nz/scanned-images/06/BC10060962006.pdf


http://www.business.govt.nz/companies/app/ui/pages/companies/3715077
http://www.linkedin.com/in/cheaslip

So general partner is Core Credit Limited, with accountant as probably nomini director. Very shady if so.

By law, details of limited partners are private.

Whatever questions you have Chris Heaslip is your guy, email or call and ask him.

So it is basically a limited partnership with a limited company as General Partner having it seems a sole nomini director AND a sole nomini shareholder. And who knows how many limited companies in how many jurisdictions are below that. These guys are well prepared for any (civil) legal assault and any civil case would be pointless.


Zhou made an interesting post regarding Core Credit on 5 May.

Quote
Bitcoinica has started using a new bank account in New Zealand for wire transfers. This account is opened with Bitcoinica's banking partner Core Credit Limited (an approved FSP in New Zealand).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79688.msg883562#msg883562  Post number 3 contains the banking details which Zhou edited out of his OP.

Pretty deceptive really given that they're actually a general partner in Bitcoinica rather than just a "banking partner".  No-one thought to question it at the time, unfortunately.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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May 24, 2012, 12:22:17 PM
 #1300

Now would be  agood time to come out with a competing bitcoinica Smiley

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