GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :)

[strangerdanger101]

Matlock said in one of the videos that he was just in it to try and help.  Just take a really close look at the figure heads of team paycoin and you'll realize its just a bag of snakes.

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[eightcylinders]

Oh Em Effing Gee! Do not go making statements you are clearly unqualified to make.

I will be happy to compare qualifications to make this statement with yours.

If it isn't 'open to all' then the governing body is taking responsibility for vetting those who it is open to.

One word: Minefield.

Really?  So in your crack legal analysis, all coin ICOs must be public, open to all?  You cannot limit for accredited investor status?  You cannot limit participation by criminals?  You cannot simply pick your friends?  This is a new legal idea, the ICo must be open to all.  Please enlighten us on the laws which require such.

[holdembot]

Matlock said in one of the videos that he was just in it to try and help.  Just take a really close look at the figure heads of team paycoin and you'll realize its just a bag of snakes.

Matlock's keyboard must have died midway in that sentence.

I am sure he meant to type: "he is only in it to try and help himself"

[Phildo]

Crypto currency is considered property by the United States Federal Government. Taking or destroying someone else's property is a criminal act.

I am well aware that forking to remove coins can and has been done, but this does not make it legal or morally right.

It is considered "property" only in a very limited way - for tax purposes.  That does not mean that you could maintain a claim for conversion or theft if your coins were blacklisted. 

If someone broke into your wallet and transferred your XPY, **that** would be conversion.  if you sell your XPY for a loss or profit, the IRS will require you to recognize the sale as income or loss.  All true.

Blacklisting a coin in a forked blockchain is not the same thing.  You still have your wallet, still have your coins.  Its just that no one is supporting that old blockchain anymore so the XPY you have in the old wallet becomes worthless.

You would have to somehow argue that U.S. law would protect not just the coins as property, but also your interest in continuing to be able to use the coins on any blockchain.  I don't see how this argument could be made.

Forget morally/ethically/legally right or wrong.

Why would you/anyone participate/hold/use/invest/develop in a coin if this is done. It can be done to bitcoins, but bitcoin works because it's so hard that it's almost impossible to do. Why would you bother wasting any time/energy/money on a coin that has shown can be taken away like that? It just doesn't make sense It can be done, but doing it should kill the coin so why do it?

I mean this saga (and crypto, in general imo) is full of people that suck at logic and common sense, but wouldn't this be a bridge too far? Forget the morality of the fork, look at the reality that will happen in the aftermath. A coin that has shown that it can easily be taken/blacklisted if you piss off a group of people that are either morally corrupt or incompetent to be involved in this mess up to this point. Doesn't seem like a smart idea to me.

[coinits]

@ eightcylinders: . The fact is the crypto currency is property. Taking or destroying someone elses's property is definitely a crime. I am not saying that destroying someone's crypto currency can be successfully argued in court. We live in a world where it is successfully argued that brazen and obvious criminals are innocent and that innocent people are criminals all day every day. By your logic murder is legal because the glove did not fit.

I agree with your point that it is probably impossible to identify all of the criminals, shysters, fraudsters, aiders and abetter, etc. in this scam so maybe its a moot point.

However, you keep saying that forking the blockchain and blacklisting coins in the process would "take or destroy" someone's property.  You are conflating "taking or destroying" of certain XPY coins (the private keys proving ownership of a coin) with taking or destroying one's ability to use and commercially exploit that same.  Conversion/theft is only concerned with the former, not the latter.

Crooks eating their own. Greed is a powerful force to a scam artist. Getting rid of one crook's coins makes the coins of other crooks more valuable to them. It's all about the pump. The pump. The pump. It's all about the dump. The dump. The dump.

[strangerdanger101]

2 Crooks 1 Coin?

[recon_eric]

First, prove to me that GAW owns Paycoin. Tell me how much, and where it is stored and why you believe it belongs to them, and then explain  why taking property from a corporation is different than taking it from an individual. Secondly, explain why you think it is ok to take property away from either GAW or Josh Garza. What is the EXACT criteria by which you conclude that it is fair, just and legal, to take property from someone else. You either respect property rights or you don't.

I don't think anyone is proposing taking property away from anyone. What is being proposed is a fork of the coin which is identical other than that certain coins don't exist in the fork; the current coin (XPY) continues to exist, and a new coin (XPY2) is created which is functionally identical, only without the GAW coins. Is that theft? I don't see how.

As an existing holder of N XPY, I would also have N XPY2 (unless presumably I was GAW). I could choose to trade my XPY2 for "real" XPY, or vice versa, depending on which of the two I wanted to hold. They would both be listed on exchanges, and their prices would move independently of each other.

If there's general agreement that the fork is a good idea people would sell their XPY, pushing the price towards 0, while buying more XPY2, increasing the price. GAW still have their millions of XPY, nothing has been stolen, but the free market has set a more appropriate price for their out-of-thin-air gains and decided that they value a coin without the pre-mine (or whatever it is - I've not been paying attention) more highly.

This.

XPY2 would cut at least 50% of the coin and all hyperinflation.

EDIT: Cut all prime controllers and their coins + any remaining premine which is not in the hands of customers.

I am inclined to agree that with some modifications to this approach, XPY has a greater chance of survival upon successful implementation.

LMFAO look what the cat dragged in
Eric I have respect for after reading some of the emails as it seems like he has some conscience.
Jonah was a trusted member of the community way before Gaw.
YOU? I would trust you as much as I would trust Josh, Don't Let The Door Hit You On The Way Out!
Hope you get the jail time you deserve.

I pushed a lot of buttons and levers. I also take responsibility for my actions. I will continue truthfully answering questions asked by 3 letter agencies even if it means an undesirable outcome for myself. I enjoy working in this industry and I stay closely in touch with Eric and Jonah. Like Eric, when I became very uncomfortable working in the environment, I stepped down from my role.

I can take a forum beating and completely understand the justification to do so.

I may have not stepped down from my role quick enough in order to properly display my character and integrity as a business leader, and that is something I regret. Hopefully time will heal and mend some of the professional and personal relationships I have built over the last few years. I'm also willing to help out where I can and be more available to do so.

Thanks.

For anyone who cares about my opinion on the matter.... ^ This is all true

A few days after I resigned, I drove from CT to MS on my way home to TX. I stopped in Hattiesburg and had a long face-to-face talk with Joe. It was then that I shared the hard truths I had learned in CT, some of which he had familiarity with, some of which was definitely news to him. I also know that he began his exit very soon after that talk, just not as quickly as I had dropped everything in CT and left.

For anyone that cares what I think, I've gotten to know Joe really well over the past 10 months and I have nothing but respect for him. He's of sound character, but shares a common weakness with the rest of us that "fell for it" and did this guy's dirty work. We had a passion for crypto-currency and 'building cool shit' (not saying that any of the final products ended up being 'cool shit' at all). Our biggest fault was trusting a manipulative and deceitful person that conned us into thinking he shared the same values. In the end we learned that there were very different motivations at the top of the food chain, we were just too focused on our individual jobs to realize the bigger picture. I also know that Joe has mirrored my efforts in the past few months to help "shine some light" on the operation, and yes I am being intentionally vague due to the ongoing "situation."

I have nothing really to gain by stepping in and speaking on Joe's character, I'm just sharing my 648 XPY (or however many equals two cents). FWIW, Joe and I (as well as several others) are still working with the appropriate 'parties' to bring all of this to an end.

Regardless, I respect everyone's right to their own opinion. It's criticism and free speech that keeps the world honest.

[cryptodevil]

Really?  So in your crack legal analysis, all coin ICOs must be public, open to all?  You cannot limit for accredited investor status?  You cannot limit participation by criminals?  You cannot simply pick your friends?  This is a new legal idea, the ICo must be open to all.  Please enlighten us on the laws which require such.

No, that is not what I said at all. Nice try though.

What I said is that if it is not 'open to all' then there must be a qualifying set of conditions, which are defined by a governing body. It is this instance that then exposes the 'governing body' to liability for the project by way of them asserting their authority over the coin project.

Which is ENTIRELY different from declaring that all ICO's *must* be open to all.

Your legalese kung fu is extremely weak.

[coinits]

To Eric and Joe back away from PayCoin 100% and destroy your coins. Prove it.

Actions speak louder than words. Publicly state that PayCoin is a pre-mined scam coin and the whole enterprise, and anyone involved with its development, promotion, or sale is a scammer.

[eightcylinders]

Crooks eating their own. Greed is a powerful force to a scam artist. Getting rid of one crook's coins makes the coins of other crooks more valuable to them. It's all about the pump. The pump. The pump. It's all about the dump. The dump. The dump.

I hope you are not suggesting that I am involved in any way in XPY.  I have been calling this a scam since the original thread, and I even predicted back in October that Josh would exit the scene and blame it the SEC and FinCEN!

I hold exactly 1 XPY and 1 Hashtaker, which I bought only to create a second account on Hashtalk when my first account was shadowbanned (for asking difficult questions about the pre-mine).  I have used my account on Hashtalk to ask questions and try to bring some light to this scam as best I could without getting shadowbanned again.

My belief is that it might be a good idea to fork XPY to get rid of all Prime Controllers and get rid of wallets known to be associated with Josh/GAW.  You can question that all you want, but if you want to try to make me a part of this scam you better have your facts straight.

[coinits]

Crooks eating their own. Greed is a powerful force to a scam artist. Getting rid of one crook's coins makes the coins of other crooks more valuable to them. It's all about the pump. The pump. The pump. It's all about the dump. The dump. The dump.

I hope you are not suggesting that I am involved in any way in XPY.  I have been calling this a scam since the original thread, and I even predicted back in October that Josh would exit the scene and blame it the SEC and FinCEN!

I hold exactly 1 XPY and 1 Hashtaker, which I bought only to create a second account on Hashtalk when my first account was shadowbanned (for asking difficult questions about the pre-mine).  I have used my account on Hashtalk to ask questions and try to bring some light to this scam as best I could without getting shadowbanned again.

My belief is that it might be a good idea to fork XPY to get rid of all Prime Controllers and get rid of wallets known to be associated with Josh/GAW.  You can question that all you want, but if you want to try to make me a part of this scam you better have your facts straight.

No I am not. I was following up your comment with a comment. I do not know you nor your reputation.

[ThePointlessOne]

I never received "free gifts", I have only received miners for review the same as from other companies like Spondoolies, Rockminer and many others.  Some of them I have been allowed to keep and others go back after the review period.

I am not paid by GAW nor have I been.  I write about many companies and I am not paid by them either.
I have never been on GAW's payroll.

Have you or have you not received free gifts from GAW?

Fargo also accepted bitcoin from Garza with one such payment totalling 1 BTC being sent by Garza to Fargo as a gift to mark his 5th wedding anniversary. Fargo, oblivious to an obvious conflict of interest graciously accepts the payment. Garza writes:

    whats your wallet address?

Fargo responds:

    Hi Josh Here is my address. If you have a statement you want to add I will out it in.

    17xq9GgFHPoujxRWo1sLo6oqHzgdjFbTag

    I hope you're having a great weekend,

    Scott

Also from Reddit - http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2tiufi/ccn_author_fired_questions_about_ccn_ill_address/

[–]ManeBjorn 2 points 2 months ago
I want to be clear I have not accepted any money from GAW. The only funds I received were from the community through a fund raiser setup by Crypto Cause. They are not affiliated with GAW. The fund raiser was the communities response to help me with my medical bills...

This guy is such a scumbag, and to think people like this report "news" is disgusting.

[suchmoon]

specially this Brian Klein of Baker Marquart
probably integral to the fraud in other ways  what a piece of shit

If you have something on lawyers for professional misconduct send the details and lodge a formal complaint to their governing body. Probably has to be someone on the same country and if in the same state all the better. I do not know if it can be done anonymously though.

I don't know. I was looking at that also, but it looks to me like Josh lied to his lawyers just as much as he lied to everyone else.  I haven't seen anything (yet) that indicates the lawyers knew in advance of his several fraudulent schemes... Keep in mind that a lawyer can represent a client who has previously committed a fraud to try to minimize the consequences.  A lawyer cannot assist a client in committing a fraud but I don't see evidence of that yet.

So in your opinion how much due diligence lawyers should do before sending out letters on behalf of their clients?

For example Garza claims he owns hardware, trolls doubt it, Garza wants to send out C&Ds. Is the lawyer supposed to just take Garza's word for it?

How about merchants and partnerships? If Garza is claiming he has partnerships with merchants and Coin Fire should stop writing about it, is that all that's needed for a C&D?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/248372603/Coinfire-Cease-and-Desist#scribd

[recon_eric]

To Eric and Joe back away from PayCoin 100% and destroy your coins. Prove it.

Actions speak louder than words. Publicly state that PayCoin is a pre-mined scam coin and the whole enterprise, and anyone involved with its development, promotion, or sale is a scammer.

I do not, nor have I ever, owned a single Paycoin.

I was never issued any by the company, nor have I ever purchased one from the company nor any person or exchange.

The only time I've ever interacted with Paycoin was building the company wallets and initial prime controller daemons.

TL;DR, I have no coins to destroy, kind sir.

[I_IZ_CEO]

State Bar Association would be the 1st step to file a complaint against a lawyer.

http://hirealawyer.findlaw.com/choosing-the-right-lawyer/state-bar-associations.html

specially this Brian Klein of Baker Marquart
probably integral to the fraud in other ways  what a piece of shit

If you have something on lawyers for professional misconduct send the details and lodge a formal complaint to their governing body. Probably has to be someone on the same country and if in the same state all the better. I do not know if it can be done anonymously though.

[Phildo]

First, prove to me that GAW owns Paycoin. Tell me how much, and where it is stored and why you believe it belongs to them, and then explain  why taking property from a corporation is different than taking it from an individual. Secondly, explain why you think it is ok to take property away from either GAW or Josh Garza. What is the EXACT criteria by which you conclude that it is fair, just and legal, to take property from someone else. You either respect property rights or you don't.

I don't think anyone is proposing taking property away from anyone. What is being proposed is a fork of the coin which is identical other than that certain coins don't exist in the fork; the current coin (XPY) continues to exist, and a new coin (XPY2) is created which is functionally identical, only without the GAW coins. Is that theft? I don't see how.

As an existing holder of N XPY, I would also have N XPY2 (unless presumably I was GAW). I could choose to trade my XPY2 for "real" XPY, or vice versa, depending on which of the two I wanted to hold. They would both be listed on exchanges, and their prices would move independently of each other.

If there's general agreement that the fork is a good idea people would sell their XPY, pushing the price towards 0, while buying more XPY2, increasing the price. GAW still have their millions of XPY, nothing has been stolen, but the free market has set a more appropriate price for their out-of-thin-air gains and decided that they value a coin without the pre-mine (or whatever it is - I've not been paying attention) more highly.

This.

XPY2 would cut at least 50% of the coin and all hyperinflation.

EDIT: Cut all prime controllers and their coins + any remaining premine which is not in the hands of customers.

I am inclined to agree that with some modifications to this approach, XPY has a greater chance of survival upon successful implementation.

LMFAO look what the cat dragged in
Eric I have respect for after reading some of the emails as it seems like he has some conscience.
Jonah was a trusted member of the community way before Gaw.
YOU? I would trust you as much as I would trust Josh, Don't Let The Door Hit You On The Way Out!
Hope you get the jail time you deserve.

I pushed a lot of buttons and levers. I also take responsibility for my actions. I will continue truthfully answering questions asked by 3 letter agencies even if it means an undesirable outcome for myself. I enjoy working in this industry and I stay closely in touch with Eric and Jonah. Like Eric, when I became very uncomfortable working in the environment, I stepped down from my role.

I can take a forum beating and completely understand the justification to do so.

I may have not stepped down from my role quick enough in order to properly display my character and integrity as a business leader, and that is something I regret. Hopefully time will heal and mend some of the professional and personal relationships I have built over the last few years. I'm also willing to help out where I can and be more available to do so.

Thanks.

For anyone who cares about my opinion on the matter.... ^ This is all true

A few days after I resigned, I drove from CT to MS on my way home to TX. I stopped in Hattiesburg and had a long face-to-face talk with Joe. It was then that I shared the hard truths I had learned in CT, some of which he had familiarity with, some of which was definitely news to him. I also know that he began his exit very soon after that talk, just not as quickly as I had dropped everything in CT and left.

For anyone that cares what I think, I've gotten to know Joe really well over the past 10 months and I have nothing but respect for him. He's of sound character, but shares a common weakness with the rest of us that "fell for it" and did this guy's dirty work. We had a passion for crypto-currency and 'building cool shit' (not saying that any of the final products ended up being 'cool shit' at all). Our biggest fault was trusting a manipulative and deceitful person that conned us into thinking he shared the same values. In the end we learned that there were very different motivations at the top of the food chain, we were just too focused on our individual jobs to realize the bigger picture. I also know that Joe has mirrored my efforts in the past few months to help "shine some light" on the operation, and yes I am being intentionally vague due to the ongoing "situation."

I have nothing really to gain by stepping in and speaking on Joe's character, I'm just sharing my 648 XPY (or however many equals two cents). FWIW, Joe and I (as well as several others) are still working with the appropriate 'parties' to bring all of this to an end.

Regardless, I respect everyone's right to their own opinion. It's criticism and free speech that keeps the world honest.

Explain the concept of the "hybrid flex blockchain." How was it supposed to work, what were the benefits, what was done to make it happen, and why hasn't it been implemented?

Also explain the amps that were used on hashlets and how they worked without being a ponzi scheme.

Everyone on the inside should be able to explain those things and how they worked, or exactly how someone else on the inside lied to you about those things and how they worked or you are just as guilty as Josh.

[Paul Revere]

To Eric and Joe back away from PayCoin 100% and destroy your coins. Prove it.

Actions speak louder than words. Publicly state that PayCoin is a pre-mined scam coin and the whole enterprise, and anyone involved with its development, promotion, or sale is a scammer.

Agreed. This whole latest fork is simply to make Paycoin appear less scammy so that the scam can continue. If these people actually wanted to fix inflation they would pull the coins out of the Prime Controller addresses. If the statement " We will publicly burn the XPY staked from our PC's" bullshit smells right, you are very easily played for a fucking fool. Why create coins to destroy them? Empty the fucking address ya fucking moron, and then you don't create the coins to begin with. A fucking 5 year old could figure this out. What the fuck? Cmon, that is an obvious lie being tossed out to con gullible idiots to keep playing along with the scam for fucks sake.

[strangerdanger101]

To Eric and Joe back away from PayCoin 100% and destroy your coins. Prove it.

Actions speak louder than words. Publicly state that PayCoin is a pre-mined scam coin and the whole enterprise, and anyone involved with its development, promotion, or sale is a scammer.

I do not, nor have I ever, owned a single Paycoin.

I was never issued any by the company, nor have I ever purchased one from the company nor any person or exchange.

The only time I've ever interacted with Paycoin was building the company wallets and initial prime controller daemons.

TL;DR, I have no coins to destroy, kind sir.

In my opinion Eric has proven (and has been proven through documents I've read) he was one of the clean ones involved in the company and got out when he realized the big picture.  Joe on the other hand sits on the council of Primes. Off the top of my head he owns 5 PC's and is leasing some out to XPYtrust.

[I_IZ_CEO]

I can confirm that Marshal Long will also accept chocolate twinkies.

LOL at the salaries these armchair entrepreneurs think they deserve:

Marshall Long of FinalHash ("mining expert" who didn't know MAT was a scam company just dropshipping miners from Alcheminer.)

My hourly consultation rate of $150 per hour

Mate Tokay of Bitcoinist (owner of unpopular crypto news site that probably doesn't even earn $1000/year in ad revenue)

On the 19th of December 2014, Tokay provides Garza with the required parameters of his employment including a two year contract, $20,000 a month salary, 4 weeks vacation, bonus and stock options, relocation expenses, an apartment paid for for 6 months, green card visa assistance and legal fees as well as a company car.

I'll have whatever they're smoking.

[kken01]

Eric your word goes a long way of restoring Joes reputation imo. some of the emails are damning but we do not know what was said behind closed doors which seems like Mr. Garbanzos modus operandi. the fact that he is not willing talk about paycoins future in a recorded setting (even if its behind closed doors but recorded to avoid misunderstandings etc) speaks VOLUMES