GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :)

[maildir]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Leo Iruke <leoslaw@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Tos
To: David McLain <dave@geniusesatwork.com>


Ok, understood. However there are some dynamics we have to consider:

1. Is the offensive that its virtual,  if so are we stating that its not virtual but an actual representative mining machine pegged per each account? Or. Are we defining hashlet as a virtual representative of aggregated then subsequently partitioned mining power ?

Are we redefining payout? If so how are miners reimbursed?  Is this model moving anticipated remuneration or some kind of non guaranteed recompensation system we need to define? If so we need to make sure its uniform across the marketing language

"Hashlet is virtual software. You will receive Payouts according to the Pool with with the Hashlet is associated. You expressly understand the the Company’s sole obligation to You is to Provide a Payout based on the Pool you choose."

When we were in the phone yesterday, I asked if it still said this. That it was virtual and our obligation was a payout. You said no that it had no mention of that.



    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From: Josh Garza <josh@btc.com>
    Date: Tuesday, November 4, 2014
    Subject: Tos
    To: David McLain <dave@geniusesatwork.com>
    Cc: Jonah Dorman <jonah@geniusesatwork.com>


    "Hashlet is virtual software. You will receive Payouts according to the Pool with with the Hashlet is associated. You expressly understand the the Company’s sole obligation to You is to Provide a Payout based on the Pool you choose."

    When we were in the phone yesterday, I asked if it still said this. That it was virtual and our obligation was a payout. You said no that it had no mention of that.

    On Tuesday, November 4, 2014, David McLain <dave@geniusesatwork.com> wrote:

        not following, what specifically in that language do you feel creates a legal liability?

        On Tuesday, November 4, 2014, Josh Garza <josh@btc.com> wrote:

            Dave, why are the tos still wrong ? This is getting frustrating. Does anyone check this stuff? We are paying a ton of money and weeks later we still have the same legal language that could get us in major trouble.


            Hashlets earnings depend on the pool chosen and Payouts reflect respective Pool Payouts. Selecting a Pool does not imply physically or electronically mining at the selected Pool. Rather, selecting a Pool determines a Payout corresponding to a calculation based on the selected Pool’s payout (based on, for example, real-time Megahash/second/day calculations). A Hashlet is virtual software. You will receive Payouts according to the Pool with with the Hashlet is associated. You expressly understand the the Company’s sole obligation to You is to Provide a Payout based on the Pool you choose. It may take 24-48 hours for your Hashlet to appear on Your Portal. Company reserves the right to refund You, and terminate services, at any time and for any reason. All sales are final. Pricing of Materials and Services is subject to change, at Company’s sole discretion, at any time, including after you have purchased Materials and/or Services (including Hashlets). Adding an item (such as a Hashelt) to a “cart” does not “lock in” a price. Maintenance fees may be adjusted up or down by the Company at any time and for any reason. Your Portal may not always be available.


            --
            Sent from Gmail Mobile



        --
        David H. McLain, Esq.
        General Counsel
        Geniuses at Work Corporation / GAW Miners, LLC
        Direct dial:  267-257-8945

[holdembot]

Uhm, looks like the $10 subscription fee for sellers doesn't work that good? Too bad, everyone thought it would work out /s

Someone should inform the shopbidsell guy that Josh only responds if you give him the whole pie.

[maildir]

Interesting, the Harmon character is indeed the father in law, more interesting, can't lie to wifey's pops, specifically:

We stay on track, we will do 100+mm in the next 12 months

Of course to the rest of the world, media and customers it was ' we did 100 million in sales one hour before we even opened up for business !!!!'
"

Subject:    Re: Status
Date:    Wed, 4 Jun 2014 09:22:14 -0500
From:    Alan Harmon <tango1860@gmail.com>
To:    Josh Garza <josh@gaw.com>
Hi Josh,
You're right about it being a no brainer. I have an appointment with Ramy in a couple of hours and am approaching this as I would any interview.

I am currently at 60k + bonus. I have only received 1 of 3 annual bonus checks and it was 3k coming off a bad trimester (I had to get the place cleaned up).

I am OCD about organization, deadlines and accuracy. I have overseen distribution and logistics in several organizations in 3 different countries including a 100,000 sq ft DC in Arabia.

From your brief description, this sound like an exciting challenge. I'm all about growing the business and enjoy challenging the previous reporting period and watching the results.

In my current position, the first thing I do daily is see where I am against the same period last year. I am showing 30 to 40% increases in a market where the owner told me there was no growth potential. I am #1 in the company in sales increase with #2 up 5% (and 3.5% of that is increase in COG).

Sounds exciting. Let's grow this!

Alan 


On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 10:41 PM, Josh Garza <josh@gaw.com> wrote:

    Hey Alan,

    So I know Ramy is/has synced up with you. This is for formality purposes. I know what your capable of.

    Here is the scoop.

    I need someone to run and build out warehouse and fulfillment out, make it run like clock work.

    In 2 months I have grown this company into to the largest mining hardware company in the world. We stay on track, we will do 100+mm in the next 12 months

    Lets make this work. You can work for the family business (all of us) that we all own. Stay in one spot, and live by your daughter and Grandkids. Its a no brainer.

    What are you making now?

    Josh Garza
    CEO
    GAW
    280 North Main Street, Suite 2
    East Longmeadow, MA 01028

    Toll Free: 888-978-4143
    Direct Line: 413-206-2500
    Fax: 413-206-7101
    Josh@gaw.com

    www.GAW.com

    “The information contained in this email message may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient any use, distribution, disclosure or copying of this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please tell us by return email and destroy this communication and any attachments from your system.”

[kcal63]

Hellsgremlin im happy youve seen that something is fishy with Mr. Garza and cool that you got something out of it. definitely figure out the tax stuff tho

but what about the people who didnt get to spend their xpy at that rate?? 

Forget paying the tax man his cut. I wouldn't spend anything on coinstand for fear of being hit with a charge of accepting stolen goods. Remember even if a product is legally purchased, if it is done with stolen money it is still receiving stolen goods under the law.

[Crestington]

I already explained several points of why the things you suggest as a fix for Paycoin are absurd, and in my opinion probably illegal as well. They are also detrimental to crypto, particularly the part about destroying trust that coins are a stable and honest form of currency. If a group of people can decide to eliminate the coins of other holders of a coin, that is the worst possible thing you can do to foster trust, which is cyptos weak point already.

IF this was any normal crypto I would agree with you, but the fact that a company "owns" it is the entire reason I would even suggest this.


Cryptos are for the people (beyond the stupid catchphrase they use "The people's money", and I firmly believe this.


BUT.......I do understand where you are coming from. And again I do agree with your sentiments if this were any other normal crypto coin. But it is not, and has some "special circumstances" surrounding it. Any changes that I suggested were to get GAW out of the picture (the easiest way possible without crossing that line you mentioned earlier about who decides which coins to burn, because that can be very difficult to track and determine) and help those who actually hold Paycoin.


Here is the issue, we have a community of folks that regardless of what you or anyone else thinks is still part of the larger crypto community. I also believe that a lot of these folks are first time crypto users and this is their first experience. Sure, its easy to sit back and say "let them burn in hell for their stupidity", but stepping back and looking at the larger picture here that causes some issues.

Mary just got scammed by GAW via paycoin and its community, and this is Mary's first time crypto experience. She was interested in it for both monetary reasons and non monetary reasons (maybe she hates the FED and really understands how much a dollar is really worth). But now her experience has left a bad taste in her mouth.

Mary also has a friend Jake at work who is interested in Bitcoin. Mary explains to Jake what had happened to her, and the poor experiences she had with cryptos. All of a sudden, her story resonates with him and he not only decides not to get into it, but actively tells others not to get involved as well. Now compound that with a few thousand people (I'm just throwing darts here at a number, but its not unreasonable).



This is why I do what I do. I can give two shits less about the coin itself, im more concerned with the community. Even if these people ultimately decide its not worth it they can still join one of the many other communities within cryptos and become contributors to help spread education and awareness. Hell most of the people who own paycoin arent even on GAW forums anymore, they are over in other mediums.

First, prove to me that GAW owns Paycoin. Tell me how much, and where it is stored and why you believe it belongs to them, and then explain  why taking property from a corporation is different than taking it from an individual. Secondly, explain why you think it is ok to take property away from either GAW or Josh Garza. What is the EXACT criteria by which you conclude that it is fair, just and legal, to take property from someone else. You either respect property rights or you don't. The fact of the matter is that Crypto currency is legally considered property, and neither you or the group of fucking criminals that you suggest should be able to pull off this fix (scam), have the right to take property from anyone else. It is that simple.

The minute that a company is able to produce money out of thin air and assign themselves that money is the moment where I believe its fair to take it away from them. Especially since they can continue printing money out of thin air. The FED is a private institution and has done this for decades, so do you believe that is fair of them? This is literally the EXACT reason why cryptos was created! To get away from this BS.

Lets agree to disagree and be done with it. Obviously we aren't going to agree to each others for a lack of a better term morals (maybe ideas? I'm having difficulty trying to place a word here). I think at this point we are arguing philosophy more than anything else, which is fine, but if you want to lets just state that up front.

I would argue that the reverse is true as well: When a group or company is able to eliminate the money held by others , you have the same situation. Your position is hypocritical, illogical and morally indefensible.

So you are saying that a company has never outed it's CEO for the things they've done and money they've cost the company?

It can be viewed as being received through illegitimate means since the money came from uncle stu to make the appearance of a floor and the $20 floor and compensation etc. only really served to increase the floor that could be sold into. What is the compensation for creating a Cryptocurrency out of thin air, seems like a few million to me so if none of Josh's funds were used to buy those Coins and no money used to back the assets and everything sold into the market then it should be just fine if the community should want to eliminate the liability. Do you think that Josh is suddenly going to do a 180 and get all legit after a year of scamming literally everyone he came across? The moment things get comfy it's going to be back to old scam muggler. Josh having the Coins will always put a negative hold over the Coin no matter what and it's very likely he would end up using existing investor funds to pay off all his pre-existing debt (which was the reason it was made). Even if Josh does go to Jail, it still means that those Coins are accumulating interest and can later on be sold and will hurt all new investors.

You said before that Cryptsy should delist, that would hurt everyone and Josh. There is also no way that people won't set any buy orders since if it's on the exchange then people would set orders. If PayCoin holders want to see any increase in the value of their Coin, they should want this to happen. If you wanted to meet halfway, you could always just take away the ability for his increased Stake percentage and let him keep the Coins (although I think he gave up that right with the $20 floor)

[bitillionaire]

I do not care about the semantics games you want to play. You are suggesting something that makes no sense unless you have some monetary interest in doing so. That is all I need to know.

Monetary interest? Are you are Josh's payroll now too?


I have zero interest in getting paid to help, I really don't care what is done with the suggestions I make. You are the one making a mountain out of a molehill for whatever reason (I mean aside at this point of just trolling me which is fairly obvious).

You insist that you wish to "fix" Paycoin out of the goodness of your heart and say that it has nothing to do with money. My father told me long ago "If someone tells you something is "not about the money", you can bet your ass it's about the money". This has proven to to be sage advice. Now you are starting to sound exactly like the paid GAW shills being exposed in these pages, accusing me of being what you most likely are.

-1 for calling Paycoin "money."

 

[bitillionaire]

In any case, I agree that Andrew's position on Paycoin is ill-conceived. If Litecoin had any of the same traits as Paycoin, I'd say kill it too. Difference is that Charlie Lee is not a sociopathic fucker hellbent on deception and gaining money by falsities, bleeding a company and its fans dry and then blaming random people on the internet for it. He's just a software guy who figured he could do an Scrypt algorithm coin better than Tenebrix. Now he works at Coinbase. Coinbase doesn't accept Litecoin, and that's a problem.

But Paycoin? Kill Paycoin. It has never for a minute been a legitimate or viable idea. If the people who lost through it end up leaving the community, that's their decision. Plenty of people who never traded anything but Bitcoin have wound up leaving due to overwhelming losses. Crypto is not for the feint of heart, it is not for the cautious investor. It is, however, and I don't mean to be too mean to them, but it is for the moderately intelligent. You have to be able to spot the difference between hype and technology. Examine Paycoin for five minutes with a rational mind, not infected by your feelings toward a particular individual, and you can see that it offers nothing that other proof of stake coins do except ridiculous awards to a select few and a lot of foolish names for things. "Prime Staker" is nothing but "premine 2.0."

Litecoin will come with 150 premined coins: just the genesis block and the first 2 blocks to confirm the genesis is valid.  We believe a coin needs to be released in a fair manner.  Having one person (or a group) control a large amount of coins that can be used as they see fit is against the decentralized vision of Bitcoin.  Yes, it is true that without a stash of premined coins, we will not be able to afford to pay for bounties, but we believe people will see the virtue of this coin, invest in it as early adopters, and will be willing to spend time creating services to make this coin better.

Present rate, these coins are worth $209 USD. At the height of Litecoin, they were worth less than $8k.

This cannot be said about Paycoin. The investigation in this thread has thoroughly revealed that from its inception Paycoin was designed to prop up a failing company, and was indeed used for that various purpose. Further, it has been revealed that it was launched in bad faith, where an honest person, when realizing that their idea would surely not work, would have simply pulled back and started over.

It's no secret that I am a fan of Litecoin and have never owned a Paycoin. But objectively speaking, Andrew, you're doing yourself no favors by suggesting that anyone should do anything to save Paycoin. There will never be a market outside of that community which values the coin, and therefore it should be taken off the exchanges, since any time it is sold on them, it is done for the very purpose of enriching the callow or foolish, neither of which are things which the cryptocurrency community has a need to promote.

[maildir]

 

not looking good, only what 2 months into the new job...

 

Subject:    let me help
Date:    Tue, 16 Sep 2014 23:59:46 -0400
From:    Alan Harmon <alan@gawminers.com>
To:    Josh Garza <josh@gaw.com>


Josh,
I know you have much on your mind and at times can feel overwhelmed. Perhaps you even think I don't really give a damn about you or this company but nothing can be further from the truth if you do.

I came here to help. Help build an empire, yet I find myself being marginalized and pushed out. Involve me! I'm not used to being in a position where I have to google my company to find out whats going on. A wise man told me "this is a family company. our family".

Please, don't underestimate me. I know more than I say, think more than I speak and notice more than you realize.

Kind regards,
Alan

[5ick3uffalo]

Everyone on hashtalk is pretty much denying buying coins ( https://hashtalk.org/topic/36830/why-are-you-still-investing-in-paycoin/20 )... so, who's buying coins now because they're clearly still selling to someone?

Most likely (Day) Traders / Tradingbots and not "investors". Investing in a total messy coin - risky investment, there are many other coins.

PS: Have fun with my 625 PayCon! (only few people who have their btc and con adresses in signature, sadly)  Was my only Immortal i did hit in PayCon staking week ^^ But staked a few Primelets

[cryptojumper]

PayCon would be a practical solution to all this mess No need for forks and removing corrupted people/companies All is needed is figure out how conversion will work
People that bought XPY have lost their investment already and there is no coming back there unless they really believe GAW will actually do honor program which they surely won't.

[Crestington]

Everyone on hashtalk is pretty much denying buying coins ( https://hashtalk.org/topic/36830/why-are-you-still-investing-in-paycoin/20 )... so, who's buying coins now because they're clearly still selling to someone?

Most likely (Day) Traders / Tradingbots and not "investors". Investing in a total messy coin - risky investment, there are many other coins.

PS: Have fun with my 625 PayCon! (only few people who have their btc and con adresses in signature, sadly)  Was my only Immortal i did hit in PayCon staking week ^^ But staked a few Primelets

So the difference here with PayCon is that in order to have it, you needed to have mined it initially and still have it or to buy your Coins which really means no free rides. I can say that it is definitely not perfect and infact it probably wouldn't be a good idea to own a lot but it works well, especially to hold on to them for a while as you would gain not only your inflation per year, but a piece of the amount other people are not Staking for or is in flux. If you have a high inflation but geared to the holders equally then that works much better because then everyone gets tons of Coins. If you have a lot of Coins coming in but without hyper-inflation then everyone has lots of coins, what do you if you are always gaining coins? Well you'd probably just give some away and be more likely to have more charity since value is not being drained.

A note on Proof of Stake:

Every Proof of Stake Coin is a Ponzi Scheme

It is the balance of power within a closed ecosystem so who gets what? The higher the amount of inflation the more Ponzi it is, someone has to lose for other people to win. So how much Ponzi Power is given where and at what level?

PayCon would be a practical solution to all this mess No need for forks and removing corrupted people/companies All is needed is figure out how conversion will work
People that bought XPY have lost their investment already and there is no coming back there unless they really believe GAW will actually do honor program which they surely won't.

Exactly, why even get involved in a legal mess? Isn't it just easier to build a different Coin? You get so much more done when not having to worry about promises or anything, if nothing goes according to plan, then why plan? just build whatever comes to mind, you do the best by just not really thinking about it too much.

[strangerdanger101]

Its everyones favorite hillbilly getting hot under the collar because someone was warning to be careful since he was having issues with the new QT

[GAW_Homero]

http://qntra.net/2015/04/garza-friends-additional-emails-detailed/

[holdembot]

These prick lawyers need to get thrown in the same pit as garza and co.

Reading these responses from apparently multinational lawyer firms just shows zero professionalism and a spirit for con artists and scammers.

[kken01]

specially this Brian Klein of Baker Marquart
probably integral to the fraud in other ways  what a piece of shit

[coinits]

specially this Brian Klein of Baker Marquart
probably integral to the fraud in other ways  what a piece of shit

If you have something on lawyers for professional misconduct send the details and lodge a formal complaint to their governing body. Probably has to be someone on the same country and if in the same state all the better. I do not know if it can be done anonymously though.

[HashieNewb]

A bit of humor here where the scumbags thought that Suchmoon might be the "woman" Stacey Tenen (Rootdude):

https://i.imgur.com/C9eAb4W.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AAOwM2U.jpg

Something else that is proven by these Emails is that Luke Rusten is not the nice innocent guy everyone seems to believe. He is actively and gleefully trying to hunt down a customer (Suchmoon) so that he can be criminally harassed, or worse. Fuck him, he is as big of a piece of trash as the rest of those criminals.

You seriously never go outside do you?    Really the amount of time you spend here is well passed obsessive.   The amount of post and hours of the day are pretty much almost 24/7.  Its down right just pathetic at this point.   Seriously,  Go outside See the Sun.  Meet a Girl,  Something but for fuck sake Get a Life,  24/7 on the pc cant be good for your health.  I worried about you!  


Toodles.  Look forward to my picture

Hows that laptop doing you got for shilling from Josh Coinstand?

What was that about me being better then you at the internet & gaining something from spending 1/16th of the time you do online?

Ohh  your got it wrong.

It was

1x Laptop
2x Xbox Ones
1 Amd CPU
1 Touchscreen monitor
2x Xbox One controlers
1 Air Mouse
Yup,  Was more then 1k in stuff since I gave them honesty about what i actually received then still pushed my extra orders through.

Total cost to me... About $37.00  Wait nvm Free because I ROI'd 3 months before coinstand existed.    

Now lets focus on my Ponzi that is now 100% Paid & how im going to jail.... That was a fun game!

That is a lot of gifts to declare on your tax return. Or are you going to claim it as income, which is probably more accurate?

They were purchases.... You already know this from my post on HT where it shows my order list.   Sorry to disappoint.  PS,  I get a hefty tax return every year.  Probably because I use Line 6 on my W4 and give a extra $40.00 every week to the man...... Just in case!


I'm slightly more intelligent then you give me credit for.  

But only slightly!

When i think of intelligent the first thing I think of is giving the government an extra $40 interest free loan every week. That's what all the smart people do.

I actually anticipated this comment about giving the interest free loan to the government.   That's why I added "but only slightly"  Alternatively I've never had to pay even when my work messed up and had me claiming 5 dependents every week.  Peace of mind is well worth the 37.00 (if that) i would have gained in interest.  IMO
I guess Im just a Patriot LOL.  

HG, you're just the latest member of TeamShill and apparently the cost to TeamScam is the following

1x Laptop
2x Xbox Ones
1 Amd CPU
1 Touchscreen monitor
2x Xbox One controlers
1 Air Mouse

so basically, here's a bunch of crap GO FORTH and shill!
now, let's see...where is that ignore button ?

[holdembot]

specially this Brian Klein of Baker Marquart
probably integral to the fraud in other ways  what a piece of shit

If you have something on lawyers for professional misconduct send the details and lodge a formal complaint to their governing body. Probably has to be someone on the same country and if in the same state all the better. I do not know if it can be done anonymously though.

If I lived in the US of ASS I would have walked in to report the fraud from these lawyers.

Thankfully and regretably I do not have that luxury.

[jimmothy]

I never received "free gifts", I have only received miners for review the same as from other companies like Spondoolies, Rockminer and many others.  Some of them I have been allowed to keep and others go back after the review period.

I am not paid by GAW nor have I been.  I write about many companies and I am not paid by them either.
I have never been on GAW's payroll.

Have you or have you not received free gifts from GAW?

Fargo also accepted bitcoin from Garza with one such payment totalling 1 BTC being sent by Garza to Fargo as a gift to mark his 5th wedding anniversary. Fargo, oblivious to an obvious conflict of interest graciously accepts the payment. Garza writes:

    whats your wallet address?

Fargo responds:

    Hi Josh Here is my address. If you have a statement you want to add I will out it in.

    17xq9GgFHPoujxRWo1sLo6oqHzgdjFbTag

    I hope you're having a great weekend,

    Scott

[Paul Revere]

I already explained several points of why the things you suggest as a fix for Paycoin are absurd, and in my opinion probably illegal as well. They are also detrimental to crypto, particularly the part about destroying trust that coins are a stable and honest form of currency. If a group of people can decide to eliminate the coins of other holders of a coin, that is the worst possible thing you can do to foster trust, which is cyptos weak point already.

IF this was any normal crypto I would agree with you, but the fact that a company "owns" it is the entire reason I would even suggest this.


Cryptos are for the people (beyond the stupid catchphrase they use "The people's money", and I firmly believe this.


BUT.......I do understand where you are coming from. And again I do agree with your sentiments if this were any other normal crypto coin. But it is not, and has some "special circumstances" surrounding it. Any changes that I suggested were to get GAW out of the picture (the easiest way possible without crossing that line you mentioned earlier about who decides which coins to burn, because that can be very difficult to track and determine) and help those who actually hold Paycoin.


Here is the issue, we have a community of folks that regardless of what you or anyone else thinks is still part of the larger crypto community. I also believe that a lot of these folks are first time crypto users and this is their first experience. Sure, its easy to sit back and say "let them burn in hell for their stupidity", but stepping back and looking at the larger picture here that causes some issues.

Mary just got scammed by GAW via paycoin and its community, and this is Mary's first time crypto experience. She was interested in it for both monetary reasons and non monetary reasons (maybe she hates the FED and really understands how much a dollar is really worth). But now her experience has left a bad taste in her mouth.

Mary also has a friend Jake at work who is interested in Bitcoin. Mary explains to Jake what had happened to her, and the poor experiences she had with cryptos. All of a sudden, her story resonates with him and he not only decides not to get into it, but actively tells others not to get involved as well. Now compound that with a few thousand people (I'm just throwing darts here at a number, but its not unreasonable).



This is why I do what I do. I can give two shits less about the coin itself, im more concerned with the community. Even if these people ultimately decide its not worth it they can still join one of the many other communities within cryptos and become contributors to help spread education and awareness. Hell most of the people who own paycoin arent even on GAW forums anymore, they are over in other mediums.

First, prove to me that GAW owns Paycoin. Tell me how much, and where it is stored and why you believe it belongs to them, and then explain  why taking property from a corporation is different than taking it from an individual. Secondly, explain why you think it is ok to take property away from either GAW or Josh Garza. What is the EXACT criteria by which you conclude that it is fair, just and legal, to take property from someone else. You either respect property rights or you don't. The fact of the matter is that Crypto currency is legally considered property, and neither you or the group of fucking criminals that you suggest should be able to pull off this fix (scam), have the right to take property from anyone else. It is that simple.

The minute that a company is able to produce money out of thin air and assign themselves that money is the moment where I believe its fair to take it away from them. Especially since they can continue printing money out of thin air. The FED is a private institution and has done this for decades, so do you believe that is fair of them? This is literally the EXACT reason why cryptos was created! To get away from this BS.

Lets agree to disagree and be done with it. Obviously we aren't going to agree to each others for a lack of a better term morals (maybe ideas? I'm having difficulty trying to place a word here). I think at this point we are arguing philosophy more than anything else, which is fine, but if you want to lets just state that up front.

I would argue that the reverse is true as well: When a group or company is able to eliminate the money held by others , you have the same situation. Your position is hypocritical, illogical and morally indefensible.

I dont understand your logic.

Jonny Q public buys shares in a company and gets scammed.

Jonny Q public has the ability to take over said company and potentially turn profits around for themselves, outside of said company.

The company being Paycoin. How can you say this is illogical or morally indefensible?

What in the world are you talking about? Paycoin is NOT a company, it is a cryptocurrency, and the coins are not shares. This is the absurd non-sense that the spiderman unperpants clad clowns on Hashtalk think. You stated that GAW owns Paycoin, and I asked you to prove this and you flat out refused to even try. Some debater. I do not personally see any legal difference in taking someone else's property, regardless of whether that entity is a person or corporation, and the law agrees. In reality, corporations have stronger legal ownership rights than individuals here in the USA.  Even if Paycoin were a company, shareholders do not have the legal or moral right to hold a majority shareholder meeting and vote to eliminate the other 49% of shares. If that were the case, shareholders would do this over and over until just one person owned all of the shares- the idea is completely absurd. The people who bought into Paycoin and got scammed got scammed. It happened. It is a travesty. You pretending to have the power of court, judge, and jury will not change this.  Again, your position is hypocritical, illogical, and morally indefensible.

I just saw this additional reply from Crestington to this same debate, so I will add my reply here to try to reduce the Wall-O-Text that is developing.

So you are saying that a company has never outed it's CEO for the things they've done and money they've cost the company?

It can be viewed as being received through illegitimate means since the money came from uncle stu to make the appearance of a floor and the $20 floor and compensation etc. only really served to increase the floor that could be sold into. What is the compensation for creating a Cryptocurrency out of thin air, seems like a few million to me so if none of Josh's funds were used to buy those Coins and no money used to back the assets and everything sold into the market then it should be just fine if the community should want to eliminate the liability. Do you think that Josh is suddenly going to do a 180 and get all legit after a year of scamming literally everyone he came across? The moment things get comfy it's going to be back to old scam muggler. Josh having the Coins will always put a negative hold over the Coin no matter what and it's very likely he would end up using existing investor funds to pay off all his pre-existing debt (which was the reason it was made). Even if Josh does go to Jail, it still means that those Coins are accumulating interest and can later on be sold and will hurt all new investors.

You said before that Cryptsy should delist, that would hurt everyone and Josh. There is also no way that people won't set any buy orders since if it's on the exchange then people would set orders. If PayCoin holders want to see any increase in the value of their Coin, they should want this to happen. If you wanted to meet halfway, you could always just take away the ability for his increased Stake percentage and let him keep the Coins (although I think he gave up that right with the $20 floor)

So you are saying that a company has never outed it's CEO for the things they've done and money they've cost the company?

No, I did not say that. We are not talking about a company here, we are talking about a crypto currency called Paycoin.

It can be viewed as being received through illegitimate means since the money came from uncle stu to make the appearance of a floor and the $20 floor and compensation etc. only really served to increase the floor that could be sold into.

Paycoin was created. It is what it is. People have various amounts in their wallets. It is legal property. If fraud was perpetrated by GAW (And I do believe it was), this does not suddenly make it legal to take someone elses property because you have decided that you think someone else did something wrong.  If there was wrongdoing, that is for a court to decide, not some self proclaimed crypto do gooder or the gang of criminals (ALL associated with the same criminal from whom you and Mage say it is ok to steal from, no less) who you and Mage say should take property from other people. If a court orders property to be seized from either GAW or Josh, that is legal. A group of people deciding they will do that is criminal. Fact. There is simply no way around this fact.

I do not recall saying that Cryptsy should delist Paycoin. Maybe I did, maybe I didn't, but at any rate I do not see the relevance to this discussion about whether it is legal and moral to decide that it is ok to take someone else's property.