GAW / Josh Garza discussion Paycoin XPY xpy.io ION ionomy. ALWAYS MAKE MONEY :)

[truckinusa]

To Eric and Joe back away from PayCoin 100% and destroy your coins. Prove it.

Actions speak louder than words. Publicly state that PayCoin is a pre-mined scam coin and the whole enterprise, and anyone involved with its development, promotion, or sale is a scammer.

I do not, nor have I ever, owned a single Paycoin.

I was never issued any by the company, nor have I ever purchased one from the company nor any person or exchange.

The only time I've ever interacted with Paycoin was building the company wallets and initial prime controller daemons.

TL;DR, I have no coins to destroy, kind sir.

I believe you, but why not?  Wouldn't that have been a good idea at some point?

[Buckeye2015]

Everyone on hashtalk is pretty much denying buying coins ( https://hashtalk.org/topic/36830/why-are-you-still-investing-in-paycoin/20 )... so, who's buying coins now because they're clearly still selling to someone?

Most likely (Day) Traders / Tradingbots and not "investors". Investing in a total messy coin - risky investment, there are many other coins.

PS: Have fun with my 625 PayCon! (only few people who have their btc and con adresses in signature, sadly)  Was my only Immortal i did hit in PayCon staking week ^^ But staked a few Primelets

Thanks bunches on the paycon! I'm new to it and trying to figure it out, so much grats on the immortal (i'm sure I'll be even more grateful once I know what that is), this and Qora are my first venture into altcoins... for me, i've only used bitcoin to get paid and buy stuff. this paycoin thread had me really squeamish about altcoins all together, so am being very careful about what I deal with.

[eightcylinders]

So in your opinion how much due diligence lawyers should do before sending out letters on behalf of their clients?

For example Garza claims he owns hardware, trolls doubt it, Garza wants to send out C&Ds. Is the lawyer supposed to just take Garza's word for it?

How about merchants and partnerships? If Garza is claiming he has partnerships with merchants and Coin Fire should stop writing about it, is that all that's needed for a C&D?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/248372603/Coinfire-Cease-and-Desist#scribd

There are two different issues here.

1) How much due diligence should a lawyer do, as a matter of best practices, before sending out a C&D?  My answer to that is a lot more than BM did here.  If they had insisted on seeing all communications and contracts supporting GAW's claims they probably would not have sent the letter.  I would not send a C&D without conducting the same level of diligence that would be required before filing a lawsuit (which is to say, I need to be convinced myself that there is a good case). 

2) How much due diligence is required, as an ethical matter, is a different question and, unfortunately, there is not a lot of diligence required.  As far as I have ever seen in ethics opinions, a lawyer sending a C&D is generally entitled to rely on his client's affirmations without further investigation.    Actually filing a lawsuit is a different matter, as the lawyer is obligated by both federal and state law to conduct an independent investigation.

[kken01]

you seem to have a good grasp of this. can you elaborate bit more on that second part
it seems that Mr. Garbozo did take actions against CoinFire far enough that civil discovery started. would it be ethical enough that you go that far with basically, only his word

[eightcylinders]

you seem to have a good grasp of this. can you elaborate bit more on that second part
it seems that Mr. Garbozo did take actions against CoinFire far enough that civil discovery started. would it be ethical enough that you go that far with basically, only his word

I am not aware of any lawsuit actually filed by Garbozo or GAW or any affiliate against Mike/Coinfire.  I think Mike stated very recently that he was initiating a lawsuit and criminal complaints against those involved in the DDOS and hacking and threats against him and his staff, but I do not recall seeing or hearing about any subpoena or civil discovery.  I may have missed something.

[kken01]

lets take it as a hypothetical then  im interested on your take on it

to me that you would go that far with minimal leg work & no concrete proof in your hands just seems wrong. specially if your plan is to squish it by prolonging it

[miaviator]

On the coin destruction note:

I uploaded my wallet.dat to the public paycoin slack channel at 6PM yesterday (4/20/2015)

https://paycoin.slack.com/files/miaviator/F04FCBXE2/wallet.dat

http://puu.sh/hlOcD/4bead41a96.png

There was a little over 192 XPY

[recon_eric]

Explain the concept of the "hybrid flex blockchain." How was it supposed to work, what were the benefits, what was done to make it happen, and why hasn't it been implemented?

I have no idea what "hybrid flex blockchain" really means, and I pride myself in being fairly knowledgeable in (real) blockchain theory. My opinion? Marketing bullshit. Anyone internally who asked "the creator himself" for explanations on some of the published concepts was met with, "um read the whitepaper." Well the whitepaper was practically an excerpt from a science fiction novel so eventually, people just stopped asking.

Also explain the amps that were used on hashlets and how they worked without being a ponzi scheme.

Wait, Hashlet's weren't a Ponzi scheme? I didn't know anyone was still arguing that. As far as how the amps worked, you'd have to ask a developer. My primary focus was security of the wallets/coin daemons, web application, and infrastructure.

Everyone on the inside should be able to explain those things and how they worked, or exactly how someone else on the inside lied to you about those things and how they worked or you are just as guilty as Josh.

See the "hybrid flex" explanation above. If you've paid attention to my prior posts, I outlined how communication (or lack thereof) typically flowed through the company. Nobody was privy to more information than was absolutely necessary to do their job. Any question that was sent up the chain of command seeking 'better understanding' was dismissed. It was completely frustrating at the time. In hindsight, it makes sense why he did that as half of us would have (and should have) left much sooner than we did.

In my opinion Eric has proven (and has been proven through documents I've read) he was one of the clean ones involved in the company and got out when he realized the big picture.  Joe on the other hand sits on the council of Primes. Off the top of my head he owns 5 PC's and is leasing some out to XPYtrust.

Eric your word goes a long way of restoring Joes reputation imo. some of the emails are damning but we do not know what was said behind closed doors which seems like Mr. Garbanzos modus operandi. the fact that he is not willing talk about paycoins future in a recorded setting (even if its behind closed doors but recorded to avoid misunderstandings etc) speaks VOLUMES

I sincerely appreciate your kind words. I've never tried to sell any illusions of being "the one who did nothing wrong." I've admitted (publicly and via official channels) that I certainly made some mistakes and I still kick myself for my ignorance and naivety. Most importantly, I've spent the last 4 months  doing everything in my power to make it right.

To Eric and Joe back away from PayCoin 100% and destroy your coins. Prove it.

Actions speak louder than words. Publicly state that PayCoin is a pre-mined scam coin and the whole enterprise, and anyone involved with its development, promotion, or sale is a scammer.

I do not, nor have I ever, owned a single Paycoin.

I was never issued any by the company, nor have I ever purchased one from the company nor any person or exchange.

The only time I've ever interacted with Paycoin was building the company wallets and initial prime controller daemons.

TL;DR, I have no coins to destroy, kind sir.

I believe you, but why not?  Wouldn't that have been a good idea at some point?

I'll answer that, but hopefully it doesn't start a war for the altcoin fans out there. The truth is, and many ex-employees can confirm this, I never believed in the coin. Even when it was first proposed, my question internally was "what the hell is wrong with Bitcoin?" I do not care for alts other than their "collectible" value... meaning, I've only dabbled in alts that had a 'fun' reason to be around. Examples being, Doge because of it's awesome community and lovable memes or Bottle Caps because I'm a total Fallout junky. I've never used alts for trading (who has time for that?) and I've never taken an alt seriously as a viable global currency as much as I do Bitcoin. That's why I had zero interest in owning Paycoin from the start.

[Garzad]

Other than gocoin, he doesn't even appear to be trying to partner with anyone else. There's no ignored emails sent to amazon, target, shopify, paypal, tesla, etc.

That's even more premeditated. There's no to corporate@amazon.com please take my shitcoin, I already said you would.


And where's bitjane? Did he have sexual relations with her too?

WOW! Ignorant beyond belief. Get a life!

Can I just check, going by the username, and the fair and justified offence that appears to be taken from the last line of the comment you responded to, that this is bitJane?

BitJane, just to be clear, is a woman who acted as a paid paycoin shill for months, then some day woke up to the reality of the fraud and thought that posting something like "oops, sorry" on her blog would be enough to spare her from the consequences of her wrongdoing.

Latest from her Twitter account and she just doesn't get it. Raffles off 'dirty' money for charity. Ummm if it is dirty destroy BitJane.

Interview here: https://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/the-bitcoin-game-15-fun-interviews-at-the-texas-bitcoin-conference-kickoff-party I have not listened yet so this should be fun.

https://i.imgur.com/V8L4qJF.jpg

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8797/16963612598_6112303327_b.jpg

Yes, you should listen to it.  And also read the blog you refer to.  BitJane was never paid.
She turned her so-called "dirty" XPY into $1550 in BITCOIN for Sean's Outpost.
Stop spreading BS. 

[Buckeye2015]

Consider this:  If instead of hard forking, the same folks get together and create a new coin called Paycoin Redux (PAX).  They do an ICO in which any holder of XPY can obtain equivalent value pro rata percentage of PAX coin by exhanging their XPY for PAX; except Josh and any person or entity that can be identified with Josh as an affiliate or family member is banned from ICO participation.  The XPY exchanged is destroyed.  The result of this would be exactly the same as a hard fork, but you cannot possibly claim anything morally, ethically or legally wrong with that.

This I completely agree with. The issue with forking out addresses on the same coin, without regard for if it can be legally enforced as theft or anything else, sets up a bad idea within crypto-currency as a technology. Imagine if the governments had said "fork out all silk-road coins" and "fork out all mt-gox coins"... then they decide to regulate coins so that to launch a coin you need to be able to put a freeze on any address at the drop of a hat if the court orders it.  

It is much cleaner to make a new coin and throw up an exchange where any coin that's over (days-since-announcement-of-new-coin) can exchange 1:1 into the new coin. That means all staked coins die in their original chain and only those holding coins at the point of the announcement can exchange, so no arbitrage crap.

[Garzad]

Other than gocoin, he doesn't even appear to be trying to partner with anyone else. There's no ignored emails sent to amazon, target, shopify, paypal, tesla, etc.

That's even more premeditated. There's no to corporate@amazon.com please take my shitcoin, I already said you would.


And where's bitjane? Did he have sexual relations with her too?

WOW! Ignorant beyond belief. Get a life!

Can I just check, going by the username, and the fair and justified offence that appears to be taken from the last line of the comment you responded to, that this is bitJane?

BitJane, just to be clear, is a woman who acted as a paid paycoin shill for months, then some day woke up to the reality of the fraud and thought that posting something like "oops, sorry" on her blog would be enough to spare her from the consequences of her wrongdoing.

Latest from her Twitter account and she just doesn't get it. Raffles off 'dirty' money for charity. Ummm if it is dirty destroy BitJane.

Interview here: https://letstalkbitcoin.com/blog/post/the-bitcoin-game-15-fun-interviews-at-the-texas-bitcoin-conference-kickoff-party I have not listened yet so this should be fun.

https://i.imgur.com/V8L4qJF.jpg

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8797/16963612598_6112303327_b.jpg

She was taken in just as much as plenty of other people were.  Then she woke up and realised.  Then  she set about righting things as best as she could.  The same as plenty of other former koolaid drinkers have done.

In fairness, her raffling off her account was a good move.  It's a free market and if the faithful still want to believe in gonzo or any of the ex-employee led "paycoin" groups, that's up to them.  No sympathy for them, given all the information needed to see how big a scam this whole business has been from the start is freely available.

bitJane made as dignified an exit as she could imo.

Though I will agree the #dirtymoney tweet was daft.  That's not the sort of thing a charity wants or needs to hear.

Yeah, that was a poor choice of words.
The "dirty" XPY was traded for BITCOIN of course!!  Sean's Outpost got $1550 in BTC -- enuf BTC to pay 2 months' mortgage on Satoshi Forest.
"One does not simply" exit XPY. 
One gets deprogrammed and goes to therapy.

[suchmoon]

So in your opinion how much due diligence lawyers should do before sending out letters on behalf of their clients?

For example Garza claims he owns hardware, trolls doubt it, Garza wants to send out C&Ds. Is the lawyer supposed to just take Garza's word for it?

How about merchants and partnerships? If Garza is claiming he has partnerships with merchants and Coin Fire should stop writing about it, is that all that's needed for a C&D?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/248372603/Coinfire-Cease-and-Desist#scribd

There are two different issues here.

1) How much due diligence should a lawyer do, as a matter of best practices, before sending out a C&D?  My answer to that is a lot more than BM did here.  If they had insisted on seeing all communications and contracts supporting GAW's claims they probably would not have sent the letter.  I would not send a C&D without conducting the same level of diligence that would be required before filing a lawsuit (which is to say, I need to be convinced myself that there is a good case). 

2) How much due diligence is required, as an ethical matter, is a different question and, unfortunately, there is not a lot of diligence required.  As far as I have ever seen in ethics opinions, a lawyer sending a C&D is generally entitled to rely on his client's affirmations without further investigation.    Actually filing a lawsuit is a different matter, as the lawyer is obligated by both federal and state law to conduct an independent investigation.

Here is some more info from Coin Fire on that subject:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=857670.msg10239602#msg10239602
https://forum.gethashing.com/t/watchlist-gawminers-paybase-zencloud/67/2053

[ab8989]

I would really have liked if the discussion about the fork would have branched off to a different discussion thread instead of being in the middle of this huge 1600 page thread.

The reason why I am saying that this discussion is extremely important and unfortunately from where it is now, it will be buried in here and future generations cannot find this very important discussion.

Why i think it is very important. In my opinion it very well exposes a key problem in PoS coins in general and the problem is that this kind of forking discussion sounds feasible to some people so that there is some nonzero probability that somebody is going to try to get it done. Whether that fork succeeds or not does not change the outcome. In both cases the coin gets killed if somebody even tries to do such a fork. Who in their right mind would like to buy or own such a coin for any serious purpose if those kind of forks can even be tried for real? This is the main problem in my opinion why PoS coins in general just are not good for anything else than pump and dump scams.

In bitcoin nobody so far has seen a similar fork for similar reasons to be even remotely feasible. And that is good. The reason why it does not seem feasible is that in bitcoin the important people to decide for this kind of issues are miners and the do not have a huge personal opinion about who owns the coins. That is a strength. The people making the decisions are not susceptible to fuck everything up for personal reasons.

As soon as people even start thinking about fucking with coin design for any personal reasons it will open the floodgates for much more to come. And those personal reasons are going the get ugly pretty quick.

I find it also quite funny that the whole thing started as a moral high horse position about righting a wrong and pretty soon it degerated into opinions that whatever is being done is right because it cannot be procecuted. There is a huge difference in levels of morality between being a white knight and not being procecuted and the later ones are not so hugely different from Josh that they should play white knights and condemn Josh.

[byt411]

I would really have liked if the discussion about the fork would have branched off to a different discussion thread instead of being in the middle of this huge 1600 page thread.

The reason why I am saying that this discussion is extremely important and unfortunately from where it is now, it will be buried in here and future generations cannot find this very important discussion.

Why i think it is very important. In my opinion it very well exposes a key problem in PoS coins in general and the problem is that this kind of forking discussion sounds feasible to some people so that there is some nonzero probability that somebody is going to try to get it done. Whether that fork succeeds or not does not change the outcome. In both cases the coin gets killed if somebody even tries to do such a fork. Who in their right mind would like to buy or own such a coin for any serious purpose if those kind of forks can even be tried for real? This is the main problem in my opinion why PoS coins in general just are not good for anything else than pump and dump scams.

In bitcoin nobody so far has seen a similar fork for similar reasons to be even remotely feasible. And that is good. The reason why it does not seem feasible is that in bitcoin the important people to decide for this kind of issues are miners and the do not have a huge personal opinion about who owns the coins. That is a strength. The people making the decisions are not susceptible to fuck everything up for personal reasons.

As soon as people even start thinking about fucking with coin design for any personal reasons it will open the floodgates for much more to come. And those personal reasons are going the get ugly pretty quick.

I find it also quite funny that the whole thing started as a moral high horse position about righting a wrong and pretty soon it degerated into opinions that whatever is being done is right because it cannot be procecuted. There is a huge difference in levels of morality between being a white knight and not being procecuted.

I agree. It is very hard to extract actual useful information from this thread, since there are too many pointless and annoying comments. The fork is something that is interesting, and it should be discussed separately, with a detailed TL;DR.

[Paul Revere]

Consider this:  If instead of hard forking, the same folks get together and create a new coin called Paycoin Redux (PAX).  They do an ICO in which any holder of XPY can obtain equivalent value pro rata percentage of PAX coin by exhanging their XPY for PAX; except Josh and any person or entity that can be identified with Josh as an affiliate or family member is banned from ICO participation.  The XPY exchanged is destroyed.  The result of this would be exactly the same as a hard fork, but you cannot possibly claim anything morally, ethically or legally wrong with that.

This I completely agree with. The issue with forking out addresses on the same coin, without regard for if it can be legally enforced as theft or anything else, sets up a bad idea within crypto-currency as a technology. Imagine if the governments had said "fork out all silk-road coins" and "fork out all mt-gox coins"... then they decide to regulate coins so that to launch a coin you need to be able to put a freeze on any address at the drop of a hat if the court orders it.  

It is much cleaner to make a new coin and throw up an exchange where any coin that's over (days-since-announcement-of-new-coin) can exchange 1:1 into the new coin. That means all staked coins die in their original chain and only those holding coins at the point of the announcement can exchange, so no arbitrage crap.

But the people this is supposed to exclude are already in a position to take full advantage of this. I know for a fact that Garza was and still is mixing and parking XPY in varying amounts in many hundreds (probably thousands) of addresses. How does one prove who they are with a crypto coin? An Email address? Sorting out which coins belong to whom is simply not feasible, and returns to the same basic false assumptions used to try to justify forking coins out of the Paycoin Blockchain that belong to certain people. Garza & Co. have had a 6 month head start and have been laundering millions of coins 24 hours a day since the launch. Any plan to help improve the viability of or enable cashing out from Paycoin is going to help Garza and associates, there is no way around this.

P.S: These comments about a potential fix of Paycoin not being on topic here are every bit as absurd as the fix suggestions themselves.

[Paid Piper]

Can the AOLers kindly trim their quotes in the future.

Hugs,
Paid Piper

[miaviator]

I would really have liked if the discussion about the fork would have branched off to a different discussion thread instead of being in the middle of this huge 1600 page thread.

...

I agree. It is very hard to extract actual useful information from this thread, since there are too many pointless and annoying comments. The fork is something that is interesting, and it should be discussed separately, with a detailed TL;DR.

30 seconds.

Seriously.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1033894.0

[ab8989]

P.S: These comments about a potential fix of Paycoin not being on topic here are every bit as absurd as the fix suggestions themselves.

If that comment was towards me, I do not find the discussion to be off topic. I just find that the discussion could be hugely important as a general philosophical discussion. However here when it is just about paycoin it is just a very crappy discussion about a very crappy coin so in here it is just crap. Not off-topic but crap so very much on-topic here

[Paul Revere]

P.S: These comments about a potential fix of Paycoin not being on topic here are every bit as absurd as the fix suggestions themselves.

If that comment was towards me, I do not find the discussion to be off topic. I just find that the discussion to be hugely important as a general philosophical discussion. However here when it is just about paycoin it is a very crappy discussion about a very crappy coin so in here it is just crap. Not off-topic but crap.

My intent with discussing possible fixes to Paycoin here is primarily in relation to the fact that supposedly upstanding members of the crypto community are volunteering to do something that I know for sure will actually help Garza & Co. and the entire Paycoin  scheme and enable them to ensnare more victims. There are also some legal and moral quandaries involved in any potential Paycoin fix. If this discussion bothers you, then tough shit. You are quite free to go start or join some other thread to follow the topic as you see fit. I am not following that thread fork, thanks.

[ab8989]

P.S: These comments about a potential fix of Paycoin not being on topic here are every bit as absurd as the fix suggestions themselves.

If that comment was towards me, I do not find the discussion to be off topic. I just find that the discussion to be hugely important as a general philosophical discussion. However here when it is just about paycoin it is a very crappy discussion about a very crappy coin so in here it is just crap. Not off-topic but crap.

My intent with discussing possible fixes to Paycoin here is primarily in relation to the fact that supposedly upstanding members of the crypto community are volunteering to do something that I know for sure will actually help Garza & Co. and the entire Paycoin  scheme and enable them to ensnare more victims. There are also some legal and moral quandaries involved. If this discussion bothers you, then tough shit. You are quite free to go start or join some other thread to follow the topic as you see fit. I am not following that thread fork, thanks.

I am not bothered. I am a little amused for many things including that you seem to take this so seriously.