Recovery program beginning in January for PB Mining customers.

[eneloop]

It is possible to borrow USD tied at BTCJam for example. -> No problem with bitcoin volatility.

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[Puppet]

puppet you make a lot of sense

hash rate is growing,  btc to usd is going down

something has to give..

what will happen?

Mining is still marginally profitable for companies with access to hardware at cost and cheap electricity. And it will get far more profitable once the next generation miners arrive that will be 3-4x more efficient. So hashrate is going to keep going up. What BTC exchange rate will do, who knows.

[MrTeal]

Charts ....

That is why all cloud miners as far as I can see over sell their available hash power ... There is no way they could mine enough to cover all their costs and make a profit from it unless they over sell ... Does that make them a ponzi scheme ? Well, yes and no ... As far as I can see they are all at it, what it relies on is the company maintaining it's reputation and attractiveness to customers so they continually support it.

Many of the cloudmining farms are located in China where electricity is cheap. Hashnest announced 18.11.2014 that the electricity price has been lowered to CNY 0.6/kWh which is ~0.005$/kWh.

Do you have a link to where Hashnest as talking about that?

[jseppeli]

Charts ....

That is why all cloud miners as far as I can see over sell their available hash power ... There is no way they could mine enough to cover all their costs and make a profit from it unless they over sell ... Does that make them a ponzi scheme ? Well, yes and no ... As far as I can see they are all at it, what it relies on is the company maintaining it's reputation and attractiveness to customers so they continually support it.

Many of the cloudmining farms are located in China where electricity is cheap. Hashnest announced 18.11.2014 that the electricity price has been lowered to CNY 0.6/kWh which is ~0.005$/kWh.

Do you have a link to where Hashnest as talking about that?

It is almost at the bottom of their frontpage

[MrTeal]

Many of the cloudmining farms are located in China where electricity is cheap. Hashnest announced 18.11.2014 that the electricity price has been lowered to CNY 0.6/kWh which is ~0.005$/kWh.

Do you have a link to where Hashnest as talking about that?

It is almost at the bottom of their frontpage

Thanks. Something seems wrong with your numbers though. Google is telling me that 0.6CNY is 0.1USD, which is just an average price for electricity for a home miner or on the high side for a big farm.

GOOD NEWS: HASHNEST announces that the electricity fee will be lowered to CNY 0.6/KWH from Nov. 18th, 2014(UTC+8). In another words, the maintenance fee of UMISOO and ANTS2 will be lower to $0.00228/GHS/day, and ANTS3 will be lowered to $0.002/GHS/day. The current difficulty is 39,603,666,252, so the calculation of Fees/Earnings should be 45.3% if the Bitcoin exchange rate is at $400.

[btcgnome]

Might try bitcoin lending at BTCJam next, but then who's to say they're any better.  

Now that people are finally beginning to wake up to the reality of cloudmining, perhaps I should focus my attention on the next looming disaster: lending bitcoins. Here is what I wrote in another thread:


Lending bitcoins is generally an even worse idea than (cloud) mining. Its hard to see why a legitimate borrower would want to borrow bitcoins, considering its volatility. Most investments and costs are still fiat denominated, so the exchange risk is enormous for a borrower, he might see his debt double or triple in mere months.  The sad reality is that most of these borrowers will end up using the BTC for (cloudmining) ponzi's and will default on their loans when said ponzi collapses, for gambling (same thing, you might as well gamble yourself), as a way to short sell bitcoin (probably resulting in a default  if BTC price goes up significantly) or plain old scamming the lenders by taking out ever bigger loans, increasing their credibility rating each time, until one day, they run. Cloudmining is usually a bad idea, lending out BTC an even worse one.

As for 'investing'; there is pretty much nothing you should even consider investing BTC in. Out of 100's or 1000's of IPO and scheme's Ive seen over the years, I can name precisely ONE that actually returned substantially more to its investors than it collected (asicminer). There are plenty of BTC related companies  I would like to be able to invest in (bitpay to name just one), but none of them raise capital through BTC, for the same reasons explained above.

In the end, bitcoin itself is your investment. Dont try to 'grow' it, you dont do that with an investment in gold or silver either.  Put it in a cold wallet and hang on to it. Thats the only truly sensible thing you can do with it, besides using it for buying stuff.

I thought about taking a loan to get a truck for my business, but then decided against it and vowed not to lend money either when breaking it down. if the price of bitcoin stays the same, everyone would be happy. If the price goes down I could get the truck for much less than taking out an auto loan, and that would work for me, but not that great for the lender. If the price goes up there is no way I could pay the loan off, and I'm not enough of an asshole to run with the debt, so I didn't even look.

And that boils down to why it's dumb to lend bitcoins. If the price goes down you get back your worthless coins, if the price goes up you are probably fucked because if someone actually needs the loan they aren't going to be able to pay you back if there is a spike.

I had the same experience with being scammed four times.  I started to do micro funding instead (~ 0.01 to 0.05) depending on the borrower.  You'll have runners but at least it won't be as bad.

And just to add, I only fund loans that are pure BTC (not tied to USD).

I recently got an arbitration notice from BTCJam.  I have never gotten my lost money from a runner before.

NOTICE OF ARBITRATION

We would like to inform you that the loan Rep Loan #2 in which you invested, will be sent to arbitration in exactly 14 days and soon you will be receiving a reply.

To avoid arbitration, you can still negotiate the borrower's debt by contacting him through the comments page.

In order to maintain good profits and make sure this never happens again, you should take the following precautions:

Try to spread your investments in small chunks across several listings in order to reduce the risk of default.
Note the user reputation before lending.
Be wary of very high rates.
We also remind you that under no circumstances should you attempt collection on a late payment yourself. In doing so you run the risk of creating a legal liability for yourself and the website cannot be hold responsible.

Legal Department
BTCJam - Peer to Peer Bitcoin Lending
btcjam.com

[MichaelNZ]

I would say to RUN NOW while you can.
Good luck!

Just waiting for my GHS to sell then I'm out.

The cloudmining game's too full of ponzis and scams.

Might try bitcoin lending at BTCJam next, but then who's to say they're any better. 

Steer clear of lending, it's a minefield ... even more chance you'll do your dough than cloud mining.

If you follow the markets you will see that there is a lot of volatility in the pricing of BTC/USD and BTC against other currencies.
Using the standard market axiom of buy low sell high, you can make a fair profit on a regular basis ... I've made a few thousand this year along with increasing my BTC rainy day fund too.

[galdur]

Borrowing BTC to go short will be totally risk-free in 2015

just as it was this year.

[Syke]

Mining is still marginally profitable for companies with access to hardware at cost and cheap electricity. And it will get far more profitable once the next generation miners arrive that will be 3-4x more efficient. So hashrate is going to keep going up. What BTC exchange rate will do, who knows.

2014 was a dream for Ponzis. With the skyrocketing difficulty running a Ponzi was a money printing machine. Every week the payouts dropped and profits increased. As soon as the difficulty levelled off, Ponzis started dropping like flies. As long as the exchange rate stays low, there will be few people buying miners, and difficulty will stay level. If the exchange rate skyrockets, expect the hashrate to also increase, making Ponzis popular once again.

[pbleak]

Jam is nuts, here is my referral link: https://btcjam.com/?r=65c0052d-5df3-47ce-831e-3cb3c80317d7&utm_source=referral_url&utm_campaign=user_referral

I've paid back over 20BTC there but you need to know who to invest in to make money. Follow the community type thing. Or PM me for a list of decent sorts. Arbs are worthless.

[Puppet]

2014 was a dream for Ponzis. With the skyrocketing difficulty running a Ponzi was a money printing machine. Every week the payouts dropped and profits increased. As soon as the difficulty levelled off, Ponzis started dropping like flies. As long as the exchange rate stays low, there will be few people buying miners, and difficulty will stay level. If the exchange rate skyrockets, expect the hashrate to also increase, making Ponzis popular once again.

I dont think it makes that much difference. The rising difficulty would allow a ponzi to make a profit without even running,  just blaming the investor loss on difficulty. But scammers are greedy and will run off earlier, namely once sales < payouts. And those two factors are related, as difficulty skyrockets, reducing payouts you'd also expect sales to slow,  and vice versa, so its probably mostly a wash.

[rooster2000bka]

Tomorrow is the first day of January! You can tell us what your plans?

[alienesb]

Tomorrow is the first day of January! You can tell us what your plans?

I'm going to get fuct up, kick my dog, kick my kids, nail my wife's sister and pass out on the foosball table.

What about you?

[btcgnome]

Tomorrow is the first day of January! You can tell us what your plans?

I'm going to get fuct up, kick my dog, kick my kids, nail my wife's sister and pass out on the foosball table.

What about you?

I'm going to be deeper in depression because I lost lots of BTC.  So I'll probably get drunk some more.

[MichaelNZ]

Tomorrow is the first day of January! You can tell us what your plans?

Tonight will be a few quiet red wines and a yippee I got through another year above ground at midnight followed by a bit of sleep and then New Years Day races tomorrow

[jseppeli]

Many of the cloudmining farms are located in China where electricity is cheap. Hashnest announced 18.11.2014 that the electricity price has been lowered to CNY 0.6/kWh which is ~0.005$/kWh.

Do you have a link to where Hashnest as talking about that?

It is almost at the bottom of their frontpage

Thanks. Something seems wrong with your numbers though. Google is telling me that 0.6CNY is 0.1USD, which is just an average price for electricity for a home miner or on the high side for a big farm.

GOOD NEWS: HASHNEST announces that the electricity fee will be lowered to CNY 0.6/KWH from Nov. 18th, 2014(UTC+8). In another words, the maintenance fee of UMISOO and ANTS2 will be lower to $0.00228/GHS/day, and ANTS3 will be lowered to $0.002/GHS/day. The current difficulty is 39,603,666,252, so the calculation of Fees/Earnings should be 45.3% if the Bitcoin exchange rate is at $400.

I checked my number and you're correct.
I had used JPY instead of CNY

[giurava]

I got less BTC than last week. Did i understand right, some of u got more than last week? How much more?

Always the same for me too, few satoshis

[MichaelNZ]

Being from New Zealand ... as I am ... I can wish merry everything the very first in the whole wide world !!! ... So ...

YO HO HO MERRY EASTER AND A HAPPY NEW LABOR DAY ... thingy, whatever

[galdur]

These guys are looking for something at the bottom of a lake

[SimplisticStu]

I sure hope 2015 brings less ponzi's and a little more opportunity to spread the good name of Bitcoin locally and in the news. This is the future and it's being dragged through the mud and yet it soldiers on. ****2015 = year of BTC****