ANTMINER S5: 1155GH(+OverClock Potential), In Stock $0.319/GH & 0.51W/GH

[Biffa]

why not get a UK seller and have them come over with equipment and then resell etc or come over with van loads of equipment set up shop in UK job done and can get more customers and be happy.

Because its much slower than sending directly to customers, more expensive than sending directly to customers, increases stock holding (unless you want premining) and generally doesn't help.

Exactly, I don't see why people think that the UK seller won't have to pay all those fees to get the stock into the country in the first place, and then pass them on to the customer with an additional markup.

You can not see the argument because you / your arguments are narrow-minded.
If bitmain decided to hold stock in the UK (even EU), they'd DEFINITELY get a better per unit shipping rate (when they ship in bulk to the EU) which can constitute their mark-up to cover their overheads; I argue that it would be enough to even book a real profit NOTWITHSTANDING that the actual price to the customer will not be increased.

It is up to bitmain to identify their best "locality" in Europe (UK, Germany, France etc) such that postage in that "locality" will be even lower than the other outer reaches of the EC. They'd be a tax collecting point and effectively reduce the time it takes their customers to get their orders.

To argue that it takes longer to ship within the EU than it is from China to the EU is, in the light of day, as counter-intuitive as it is ignorant. All it takes is planning ahead.

By the way, the same argument could hold true for the Americas, but I will not argue their case for them.

You are naive if you think this.

Its actually likely that it would take longer getting stock to customers this way and would also end up costing more to customers.

Factors that would affect this:

• No matter if you bulk ship or ship individual items you still have to pay VAT to get items into the EU
• Once in the EU you are legally obliged to sell those items with VAT on top so the customer still has to pay
• Cost of setting up the company in the EU is not unsubstantial
• Staff costs WAY more expensive in EU than in China
• Building, warehousing and storage costs WAY more expensive in EU than in China
• Legal, insurance, accountants etc requirements of running business WAY more expensive than in China

And that's just off the top of my head.

Best case scenario, you end up paying the same as you would buying it direct, a more likely one is that you would end up paying more.

[pekatete]

To argue that it takes longer to ship within the EU than it is from China to the EU is, in the light of day, as counter-intuitive as it is ignorant. All it takes is planning ahead.

It would take longer to ship from China to EU Reseller to Customer than from China direct to customer.

If you did not plan ahead, yes. But look at where we are at with the S5 right now. From what I glean from this thread, they have adequate capacity and have already commenced production. So if they shipped the batch destined for EU customers in bulk yesterday, they'd be at their re-seller by tomorow.

Now do you wish to argue it will take longer to ship within the EU on / before the 27th to the EU than it would be if they were shipped from China on / before the 27th ? It is a no brainer on all levels if you choose to look at it from the perspective that it deserves.

[Rabinovitch]

What do you mean by S3 upgrades, like the S1/S3 upgrade kits?

yes

Maybe, will look into it. I think the problem will be that the S3 is perfectly viable so no one will be turning them off for a while.

And what about upgrade kits for S2 with these new chips?

[Biffa]

To argue that it takes longer to ship within the EU than it is from China to the EU is, in the light of day, as counter-intuitive as it is ignorant. All it takes is planning ahead.

It would take longer to ship from China to EU Reseller to Customer than from China direct to customer.

If you did not plan ahead, yes. But look at where we are at with the S5 right now. From what I glean from this thread, they have adequate capacity and have already commenced production. So if they shipped the batch destined for EU customers in bulk yesterday, they'd be at their re-seller by tomorow.

Now do you wish to argue it will take longer to ship within the EU on / before the 27th to the EU than it would be if they were shipped from China on / before the 27th ? It is a no brainer on all levels if you choose to look at it from the perspective that it deserves.

There have been Bitmain resellers in the EU since the S1, they all charged more than buying direct from Bitmain.

[pekatete]

• No matter if you bulk ship or ship individual items you still have to pay VAT to get items into the EU
• Once in the EU you are legally obliged to sell those items with VAT on top so the customer still has to pay

You miss the point, VAT will be paid on import only if you are shipping within the EU, bitmain then simply compound this onto the selling price just like any VAT registered business. The whole idea was NOT to circumvent VAT.

• Cost of setting up the company in the EU is not unsubstantial
• Staff costs WAY more expensive in EU than in China
• Building, warehousing and storage costs WAY more expensive in EU than in China
• Legal, insurance, accountants etc requirements of running business WAY more expensive than in China

I am not conversant with the volumes bitmain do, but my argument was that the savings that bitmain make on the shipping would cover these. Worst case scenario is they'd mark-up the product to bring it up to the same international price. And this argument of being a lot more expensive to do business in the EU than it is in China that you present here is flawed in the context you present it.

Best case scenario, you end up paying the same as you would buying it direct, a more likely one is that you would end up paying more.

No one is saying we should pay less (as on a personal level I'd like to see bitmain prosper), but I am convinced that their business is scalable to justify an EU operation to expedite shipment, amongst other benefits.

[dogie]

To argue that it takes longer to ship within the EU than it is from China to the EU is, in the light of day, as counter-intuitive as it is ignorant. All it takes is planning ahead.

It would take longer to ship from China to EU Reseller to Customer than from China direct to customer.

If you did not plan ahead, yes. But look at where we are at with the S5 right now. From what I glean from this thread, they have adequate capacity and have already commenced production. So if they shipped the batch destined for EU customers in bulk yesterday, they'd be at their re-seller by tomorow.

Now do you wish to argue it will take longer to ship within the EU on / before the 27th to the EU than it would be if they were shipped from China on / before the 27th ? It is a no brainer on all levels if you choose to look at it from the perspective that it deserves.

You can make up theoretical numbers all you want but it doesn't work out. Miners have to be sent via air which doesn't hold significant bulk discounts compared to a few units vs a pallet at a time. You've then got to pay EU to customer shipping again, AND more overheads, AND the lost mining revenue from the 2 day delay to get to the customer. If you really think its a good idea then you're more than free to open a UK shop and try and sell.

[pekatete]

There have been Bitmain resellers in the EU since the S1, they all charged more than buying direct from Bitmain.

I think you joined the conversation late and did not take time to read and understand what I was saying .... as I was not arguing for a re-seller per se, but a bitmain EU presence for the reasons I stated.

[pekatete]

You can make up theoretical numbers all you want but it doesn't work out. Miners have to be sent via air which doesn't hold significant bulk discounts compared to a few units vs a pallet at a time. You've then got to pay EU to customer shipping again, AND more overheads, AND the lost mining revenue from the 2 day delay to get to the customer. If you really think its a good idea then you're more than free to open a UK shop and try and sell.

I am not making up any theoretical numbers, just stating what i think is a plausible argument for a bitmain EU operation. It may indeed be a bit over your head since you've failed to grasp the basics of my arguments if you are still refering to "lost days". Someone with real clout at bitmain may understand what I am saying.

[ChineseSavior]

whats up with the new firmware bitmain is showing?

Will we be able to set auto reset parameters easier? Im having to reset mine at least once per day remotely :/ random units always

[sEpuLchEr]

Every satellite office out of their origin country will incur overheads no matter how you look at it. Even if sales is plenty in that region. I would think especially so for miners as they have a very short time span to sell them before a new one comes around.

I would love for them to have one in Singapore too so I can pick it up the same day. But alas, any overheads will be added to the cost of manufacturing and inturn, cost will be past to ALL customers. I sure don't wish to pay for any overheads to get a miner from bitmain unless they are in Singapore.

[pekatete]

Every satellite office out of their origin country will incur overheads no matter how you look at it. Even if sales is plenty in that region. I would think especially so for miners as they have a very short time span to sell them before a new one comes around.

I would love for them to have one in Singapore too so I can pick it up the same day. But alas, any overheads will be added to the cost of manufacturing and inturn, cost will be past to ALL customers. I sure don't wish to pay for any overheads to get a miner from bitmain unless they are in Singapore.

I am not conversant with bitmain's sales numbers by region, but surely you can not compare the Singapore market against the EU market, and that for anything not just bitcoin miners. But hey, I could be wrong on that ....

[sEpuLchEr]

Every satellite office out of their origin country will incur overheads no matter how you look at it. Even if sales is plenty in that region. I would think especially so for miners as they have a very short time span to sell them before a new one comes around.

I would love for them to have one in Singapore too so I can pick it up the same day. But alas, any overheads will be added to the cost of manufacturing and inturn, cost will be past to ALL customers. I sure don't wish to pay for any overheads to get a miner from bitmain unless they are in Singapore.

I am not conversant with bitmain's sales numbers by region, but surely you can not compare the Singapore market against the EU market, and that for anything not just bitcoin miners. But hey, I could be wrong on that ....

I'm not comparing markets. Just stating the fact that no matter where they open up. Be it in the northpole or southpole, there will be overheads. Cost that will be potientially past on to ALL customers. So instead of seeing US$415 per S5, you could be looking at $550 (I'm plucking figures off the air) per S5. I don't see any other manufacturer with a satalite office, do you?

I'll rather they stick to as low cost as they can so that everyone gets to pay a lower price. I pay GST (7%) too when I import stuffs to Singapore, not as high as yours but that's your country. Should one day Singapore decided to change GST to 40% I'll still have to pay 40%, or I could complain all I want to the gov and still pay 40%.

[pekatete]

I'm not comparing markets. Just stating the fact that no matter where they open up. Be it in the northpole or southpole, there will be overheads. Cost that will be potientially past on to ALL customers. So instead of seeing US$415 per S5, you could be looking at $550 (I'm plucking figures off the air) per S5. I don't see any other manufacturer with a satalite office, do you?

I'll rather they stick to as low cost as they can so that everyone gets to pay a lower price. I pay GST (7%) too when I import stuffs to Singapore, not as high as yours but that's your country. Should one day Singapore decided to change GST to 40% I'll still have to pay 40%, or I could complain all I want to the gov and still pay 40%.

See that is where you missed my point in your zeal to counter argue your position. No one denies the existance of overheads, but my argument is /was that there are cost savings to be made which would cover those overheads. Ofcourse, this is dependent on the margins on individual units which are driven by volumes, which I argue, are adequate in the EU market to justify a resident operation.

Again, no one is complaining about the rate of import duties payable (which VAT is classified as on imported items) ....

[dogie]

there are cost savings to be made which would cover those overheads

What cost savings?

[pekatete]

there are cost savings to be made which would cover those overheads

What cost savings?

You've already demonstrated and expressed your refusal to address my postion properly, so I wonder whether I'd be wasting my "breath" answering that ... but look at my previous posts where I have clearly explained that.

[sEpuLchEr]

What cost savings?

By building a manufacturing plant in EU? Nope. Cost will rocket.
Employ a single person without an office and company to act as middleman? Not sure if it's against the law, but there's still cost of salary + cost of shipping miners to that person.
Having the miners go to EU by ship? Maybe, but you will get your miners 1 month later than everyone else.

[Panthers52]

To argue that it takes longer to ship within the EU than it is from China to the EU is, in the light of day, as counter-intuitive as it is ignorant. All it takes is planning ahead.

It would take longer to ship from China to EU Reseller to Customer than from China direct to customer.

If you did not plan ahead, yes. But look at where we are at with the S5 right now. From what I glean from this thread, they have adequate capacity and have already commenced production. So if they shipped the batch destined for EU customers in bulk yesterday, they'd be at their re-seller by tomorow.

Now do you wish to argue it will take longer to ship within the EU on / before the 27th to the EU than it would be if they were shipped from China on / before the 27th ? It is a no brainer on all levels if you choose to look at it from the perspective that it deserves.

There have been Bitmain resellers in the EU since the S1, they all charged more than buying direct from Bitmain.

Buying miners from retailers is always going to be a bad idea Between the infinite number of scams on the internet (that cannot be called out in the same way they can be on here) to the fact that retailers generally charge a markup even after they have been receiving mining revenue while they are held in inventory, buying from a retailer is going to be NPV negative

[Rabinovitch]

Employ a single person without an office and company to act as middleman? Not sure if it's against the law, but there's still cost of salary + cost of shipping miners to that person.
Having the miners go to EU by ship? Maybe, but you will get your miners 1 month later than everyone else.

The cost of shipping large batches of goods should be significantly lower than if you ship separate packages to separate people...

[klondike_bar]

You can make up theoretical numbers all you want but it doesn't work out. Miners have to be sent via air which doesn't hold significant bulk discounts compared to a few units vs a pallet at a time. You've then got to pay EU to customer shipping again, AND more overheads, AND the lost mining revenue from the 2 day delay to get to the customer. If you really think its a good idea then you're more than free to open a UK shop and try and sell.

I am not making up any theoretical numbers, just stating what i think is a plausible argument for a bitmain EU operation. It may indeed be a bit over your head since you've failed to grasp the basics of my arguments if you are still refering to "lost days". Someone with real clout at bitmain may understand what I am saying.

Problem is the reasons listed a few posts back: it costs a lot of money and time to setup a warehouse in EU which will likely need 4-7 locals to staff it at minimum. Shipping from china is already available to them at a reasonable price and does not include the 12month contract risks and unknowns of a new office in a new country.

its a market suited to local resellers with a knowledge of the market and ideally the ability to run 40kW+ of equipment when waiting for sales orders to ship out.

[CHAOSiTEC]

Also, it is actually more expensive, to ship within EU, than from bitmains current location, if you calculate per km shipped, so if they would save 20% on bulk shipping to the eu, then besides warehouse, and staffing, shipping from within eu would inflate the price to a higher level than they already are, i personly see no cost savings, for neither bitmain, nor any eu customer.