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Question: Would you pay taxes if you could live off bitcoins?
Yes, even w/o risks - 35 (38.5%)
Depends on the risks - 22 (24.2%)
No, even w/ risks - 34 (37.4%)
Total Voters: 91

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Author Topic: Would you pay taxes if you could live off bitcoins?  (Read 10148 times)
myrkul
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July 08, 2012, 09:46:52 PM
 #281

If you find a better libertarian manifesto, let me know.

I have. It's called the New Libertarian Manifesto, by Sam Konkin. As promised, here it is. There is was a severe typographical error in the first section of most versions online, which while it does not alter the overall tone, does significantly change the meaning of the two paragraphs that it combines.

I have fixed that error, though other lesser ones may remain. If you have any questions, I have the full 25th anniversary edition, in real, dead-tree form to clear up any misunderstandings.

I'd also suggest you read the book I offered up earlier, Universally Preferable Behaviour.

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nedbert9
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July 08, 2012, 10:10:31 PM
 #282


No taxation without representation + transparency and complete accountability to the people (people of the human variety - not corporations)

The last two we, in the US, don't have.  

So, no.
myrkul
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July 08, 2012, 10:12:19 PM
 #283



No taxation without representation + transparency and complete accountability to the people

The last two we, in the US, don't have. 

So, no.

Whoa, wait, was that actually on-topic? You confused me.

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Matthew N. Wright
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July 08, 2012, 10:13:41 PM
 #284

Quote
Would you pay taxes if you could live off bitcoins?

I already live off of bitcoins and I pay taxes. This thread is ignorant because it assumes that Bitcoin will eliminate localized currencies, which is highly illogical for numerous reasons, and in addition forgets that people are already choosing to pay taxes to the network and pretty much every product and service provider in Bitcoin.

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July 08, 2012, 10:21:28 PM
 #285

Yes, because it only goes back to the people. (Maybe not 100% of it, but whatever).

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July 08, 2012, 11:35:03 PM
 #286

You are the one interfering with the use of their property by 2 million people.  The arbitrator won't even need a nanosecond to tell you to pack your bags.

No, I am not. I am interfering with their use of my property. The arbitrator won't even need a nanosecond to tell them to get fucked.

In the nicest way possible, you haven't understood "The Machinery of Freedom."  Read it again - the chapters on market law are of particular interest.  In anarchy, there are no property rights as there is no state.  Its all about the economic value of development.  Arbitrators will be market driven and will consider the value to the 2 million compared to the value to the 1 person and will tell the 1 person to pack their bags.

I don't know why I am having to explain the book you recommended.

You obviously don't have a grasp of economics and unintended consequences. Eminent domain is harmful to economic development because it reduces or eliminates owners' ability to plan and use their property as they want. If you can be held hostage to the whims of others then you cannot effectively plan. So any proper arbitrator will tell you in plain language that you cannot build a road across the land of someone who doesn't agree with your proposal. You are also totally ignoring the fact that there will be many other options besides building that portion of road over the resistor's land. Your attempt to limit the possibilities to only ones that create a conflict are infuriating.

Before I read Machinery of Freedom I was a minarchist. I didn't understand how things could possibly work in an anarchy. I still don't know how every last detail of every economic action by every single actor in the world would happen. What Machinery of Freedom got me to understand was that I don't have to have all the answers. The people making up the market will figure it all out by acting each in their own interest, and so no central planning is necessary. In fact, many things will turn out vastly different than any of us can even conceive. Maybe several technological advances will create options that no one now would expect. Maybe someone will figure out a better philosophy that answers many current social issues. But the point is, not only don't we know how it will all work out, but we don't need to know. We just need to trust that individuals making their own choices and acting in their own interest will provide all that is needed.

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July 08, 2012, 11:43:20 PM
 #287

You are the one interfering with the use of their property by 2 million people.  The arbitrator won't even need a nanosecond to tell you to pack your bags.

No, I am not. I am interfering with their use of my property. The arbitrator won't even need a nanosecond to tell them to get fucked.

In the nicest way possible, you haven't understood "The Machinery of Freedom."  Read it again - the chapters on market law are of particular interest.  In anarchy, there are no property rights as there is no state.  Its all about the economic value of development.  Arbitrators will be market driven and will consider the value to the 2 million compared to the value to the 1 person and will tell the 1 person to pack their bags.

I don't know why I am having to explain the book you recommended.

You obviously don't have a grasp of economics and unintended consequences. Eminent domain is harmful to economic development because it reduces or eliminates owners' ability to plan and use their property as they want. If you can be held hostage to the whims of others then you cannot effectively plan. So any proper arbitrator will tell you in plain language that you cannot build a road across the land of someone who doesn't agree with your proposal. You are also totally ignoring the fact that there will be many other options besides building that portion of road over the resistor's land. Your attempt to limit the possibilities to only ones that create a conflict are infuriating.

Before I read Machinery of Freedom I was a minarchist. I didn't understand how things could possibly work in an anarchy. I still don't know how every last detail of every economic action by every single actor in the world would happen. What Machinery of Freedom got me to understand was that I don't have to have all the answers. The people making up the market will figure it all out by acting each in their own interest, and so no central planning is necessary. In fact, many things will turn out vastly different than any of us can even conceive. Maybe several technological advances will create options that no one now would expect. Maybe someone will figure out a better philosophy that answers many current social issues. But the point is, not only don't we know how it will all work out, but we don't need to know. We just need to trust that individuals making their own choices and acting in their own interest will provide all that is needed.

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July 09, 2012, 12:08:12 AM
 #288

Mob rule of 2 people, 2 million, or 2 trillion is not legitimate, therefore there can be no 'interference' with it that an arbitrator will acknowledge. Unless that arbitrator isn't actually one at all.

I know why you say that.  You haven't read http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf

Read it.  If you find a better libertarian manifesto, let me know.  But for now, your problem is that you have not studied your own beliefs.

Maybe you should gather together a mob of 2 million and collectively tell an arbitrator I should be forced to read this "libertarian manifesto" that I don't subscribe to, so the arbitrator and I can laugh in your face.

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myrkul
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July 09, 2012, 12:13:15 AM
 #289

Maybe you should gather together a mob of 2 million and collectively tell an arbitrator I should be forced to read this "libertarian manifesto" that I don't subscribe to, so the arbitrator and I can laugh in your face.

As it happens, I offer arbitration and mediation services.... Grin

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nevafuse
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July 09, 2012, 02:34:56 AM
 #290

I already live off of bitcoins and I pay taxes. This thread is ignorant because it assumes that Bitcoin will eliminate localized currencies, which is highly illogical for numerous reasons, and in addition forgets that people are already choosing to pay taxes to the network and pretty much every product and service provider in Bitcoin.

I wasn't assuming the elimination of localized currencies as much as anonymity & full control over your money.  And the taxes/fees I was referring to were the mandatory ones imposed by current governments onto its citizens for its services.

The only reason to limit the block size is to subsidize non-Bitcoin currencies
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July 09, 2012, 02:44:58 AM
 #291

I do/would pay taxes, as long as we have direct access to our democracy.

Right now the problem is that our elections are bought, and the same people buying the elections are the ones advocating for even LESS control...

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July 09, 2012, 07:45:36 AM
 #292

Mob rule of 2 people, 2 million, or 2 trillion is not legitimate, therefore there can be no 'interference' with it that an arbitrator will acknowledge. Unless that arbitrator isn't actually one at all.

I know why you say that.  You haven't read http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf

Read it.  If you find a better libertarian manifesto, let me know.  But for now, your problem is that you have not studied your own beliefs.

Maybe you should gather together a mob of 2 million and collectively tell an arbitrator I should be forced to read this "libertarian manifesto" that I don't subscribe to, so the arbitrator and I can laugh in your face.

Its sort of sad.  You guys claim to be anarchists and you don't understand your own beliefs. 

In an anarchy, there are no fixed rights, its market law.  There won't be a single arbitrator - there will be many and pro-growth ones will have a competitive advantage.  The 2 million people will between them find at least one pro-growth arbitrator.  Once they get the case in front of him, its game over for the hold-out.

The question you should be asking is why someone who is not an anarchist has to explain this to you. 

myrkul
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July 09, 2012, 07:48:35 AM
 #293

Its sort of sad.  You guys claim to be anarchists and you don't understand your own beliefs. 

The more logical answer, and the simpler one, is that you, not an anarchist, do not correctly understand our beliefs.

Your claim is rather like me trying to teach a Muslim about Shariah law.

Edit: My above supposition becomes much more likely, as you, as evinced by the below post, cannot differentiate the arguments of an anarchist from a non-anarchist.

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July 09, 2012, 09:11:43 AM
 #294

Mob rule of 2 people, 2 million, or 2 trillion is not legitimate, therefore there can be no 'interference' with it that an arbitrator will acknowledge. Unless that arbitrator isn't actually one at all.

I know why you say that.  You haven't read http://daviddfriedman.com/The_Machinery_of_Freedom_.pdf

Read it.  If you find a better libertarian manifesto, let me know.  But for now, your problem is that you have not studied your own beliefs.

Maybe you should gather together a mob of 2 million and collectively tell an arbitrator I should be forced to read this "libertarian manifesto" that I don't subscribe to, so the arbitrator and I can laugh in your face.

Its sort of sad.  You guys claim to be anarchists and you don't understand your own beliefs.  

In an anarchy, there are no fixed rights, its market law.  There won't be a single arbitrator - there will be many and pro-growth ones will have a competitive advantage.  The 2 million people will between them find at least one pro-growth arbitrator.  Once they get the case in front of him, its game over for the hold-out.

The question you should be asking is why someone who is not an anarchist has to explain this to you.  



You're DONE. BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT times infinity out of you, including the outright lie "You guys claim to be anarchists", quoting ME, when I have never claimed to be an anarchist on BCT or in any forum, medium, or even thought that in my own head.

So enjoy your spot as #1 on my ignore list, LIAR.

Report the liar 'Hawker' here.

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myrkul
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July 09, 2012, 09:26:29 AM
 #295

So enjoy your spot as #1 on my ignore list, LIAR.

Report the liar 'Hawker' here.

Impressive. Is he actually the first person on there, or is it just a metaphorical "#1", in that his transgressions pushed him to the top of your shit list?

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July 09, 2012, 09:29:19 AM
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So enjoy your spot as #1 on my ignore list, LIAR.

Report the liar 'Hawker' here.

Impressive. Is he actually the first person on there, or is it just a metaphorical "#1", in that his transgressions pushed him to the top of your shit list?

He's the first. And considering his post count, maybe we're all just being trolled by BCT's officially-sanctioned devil's advocate.

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July 09, 2012, 09:33:38 AM
 #297

He's the first. And considering his post count, maybe we're all just being trolled by BCT's officially-sanctioned devil's advocate.

The more he posts, the more I get the impression that he is indeed trolling, he's already made a brief appearance on my ignore list, and is likely to get placed back there pretty soon, if this track he's on doesn't change course.

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July 09, 2012, 04:40:52 PM
 #298

Of course, I would continue to pay taxes if I could live off of Bitcoin.  Keep in mind, Bitcoin was created to be a P2P decentralized electronic cash system.  One still needs to pay taxes even if he or she lives off of either paper or electronic cash.  Bitcoin is revolutionary, but hardly an excuse for not paying taxes.
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July 09, 2012, 05:08:30 PM
 #299

Ha, the option I found the most logical is exactly the one with less votes so far.... (at least "No" + "depends" beats "Yes", what's good Smiley)

A question to all those answering "No": if you leave in a place with income tax, and assuming your income is at least twice that of the exemption threshold, how do you actually intend not to pay it at all? Even if you have bitcoin-only revenues and your employer (if applicable) doesn't declare your earnings to the government you're subject to... how would you hide the discrepancies between your belongings and your declared income? How would you buy a house, for example?
Or you just don't care and intend to do it Irwin Schiff style?

The questions above are not meant to provoke, I really wonder how to do those things. Cheesy
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July 09, 2012, 05:38:20 PM
 #300

How would you hide the discrepancies between your belongings and your declared income? How would you buy a house, for example?
Or you just don't care and intend to do it Irwin Schiff style?

Well, that's one of those "risks". I think a combination of not giving them a reason to look too closely, and operating out of their view would probably work best. Not to go into too much detail, "flying below the radar."

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