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Question: Would you pay taxes if you could live off bitcoins?
Yes, even w/o risks - 35 (38.5%)
Depends on the risks - 22 (24.2%)
No, even w/ risks - 34 (37.4%)
Total Voters: 91

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Author Topic: Would you pay taxes if you could live off bitcoins?  (Read 10145 times)
cryptoanarchist
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July 07, 2012, 07:48:55 PM
 #61

...snip...

So do you think it is ok for you to point a gun at my head and tell me I HAVE to pay for your healthcare, OR ELSE?? Is that the kind of thug you are? If so, our conversation is over.

No - you have to pay for your health care.  You may be healthy now but you almost certainly will get sick and you do have to pay for your care.

So now you are saying I should take responsibility for myself? Isn't that my position?
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westkybitcoins
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July 07, 2012, 07:50:42 PM
 #62

If you like to you are perfectly free o pay for them. Just don' force me to.

So your view is that the baby dies?

Surely you realize that's a false dichotomy.


wachtwoord says he wants people to take responsibility for their decisions.  So the question I ask is simple; if its wachtwoord's decision, is he happy to let the baby die?

But your question presumes that the only two options are: (1) wachtwoord pays via national healthcare, or (2) the poor baby dies. That is a false dichotomy.

(And as an aside, there are also issues with option (1) of the false dichotomy itself, the most notable being the presumption that it ensures that the baby won't die.)

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
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Hawker
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July 07, 2012, 07:50:47 PM
 #63

...snip...
Hawker, are you happy when someone dies because of poor government service?

Poor service is poor service.  I don't care if its a private company, the government or a charity.  

cryptoanarchist
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July 07, 2012, 07:52:25 PM
 #64

...snip...
Hawker, are you happy when someone dies because of poor government service?

Poor service is poor service.  I don't care if its a private company, the government or a charity.  

so you don't care if the baby dies, you just want to use the guns of the state to force other people to pay for it. Sure you're not British?
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July 07, 2012, 07:54:21 PM
 #65

Hmm. Seems as if several of us are suddenly jumping on Hawker at once. For the record, that wasn't my intent (despite having strong views on Hawker's perspective being flawed,) and as I have someplace to be, I'll leave the thread for now.

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
...
...
In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
...
...
ATTENTION BFL MINING NEWBS: Just got your Jalapenos in? Wondering how to get the most value for the least hassle? Give BitMinter a try! It's a smaller pool with a fair & low-fee payment method, lots of statistical feedback, and it's easier than EasyMiner! (Yes, we want your hashing power, but seriously, it IS the easiest pool to use! Sign up in seconds to try it!)
...
...
The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
Hawker
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July 07, 2012, 07:55:26 PM
 #66

...snip...

So do you think it is ok for you to point a gun at my head and tell me I HAVE to pay for your healthcare, OR ELSE?? Is that the kind of thug you are? If so, our conversation is over.

No - you have to pay for your health care.  You may be healthy now but you almost certainly will get sick and you do have to pay for your care.

So now you are saying I should take responsibility for myself? Isn't that my position?

You tell me.  If you live in the UK, you get healthcare free at the point of delivery but you pay for it though the tax system.  So if you are hit by a car, you never pay a penny until you have income again.

Do you feel that is oppressive?

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July 07, 2012, 07:57:55 PM
 #67

If you live in the UK, you get healthcare free at the point of delivery ...
Frequently what you get is access to a six month waiting list, free at the point of delivery. That's not the same as access to healthcare.
cryptoanarchist
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July 07, 2012, 07:58:59 PM
 #68

...snip...

So do you think it is ok for you to point a gun at my head and tell me I HAVE to pay for your healthcare, OR ELSE?? Is that the kind of thug you are? If so, our conversation is over.

No - you have to pay for your health care.  You may be healthy now but you almost certainly will get sick and you do have to pay for your care.

So now you are saying I should take responsibility for myself? Isn't that my position?

You tell me.  If you live in the UK, you get healthcare free at the point of delivery but you pay for it though the tax system.  So if you are hit by a car, you never pay a penny until you have income again.

Do you feel that is oppressive?

So if I don't want to pay the taxes and instead pay the doctors directly, you want me violently forced into a cage where I'll get raped? How nice of you.
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July 07, 2012, 08:01:04 PM
 #69

note: This is a answer to the question at the top. Typing on a Kindle is slow.


Nah I am fine if you pay for it Wink (But thanks for the ad hominem)

Seriously though I am neither happy nor sad nor any other emotion about the hypothetical baby's demise. Have you ever looked up how many people die each second? If you haven't I urge you too. And if these people didn't die at this rate the planet would be even more crowded than it is today.

So is the death of the baby sad? On a persoal level most definitely. If I had a close relationship with the baby (or someone cloe to the baby) I could very well propose to aid financially. Without a cloe connection but being personal witness to suc an event would also not cause me joy ifthat is what you are implying (I am acually a nice person Smiley). On a global scale however people will die, such is life and people should take responsibility for their own actions to maximize the chances of them having a happy life (if that is their aim).

I am not responsible for other people unless I choose to.

Hawker
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July 07, 2012, 08:04:26 PM
 #70

...snip...

So do you think it is ok for you to point a gun at my head and tell me I HAVE to pay for your healthcare, OR ELSE?? Is that the kind of thug you are? If so, our conversation is over.

No - you have to pay for your health care.  You may be healthy now but you almost certainly will get sick and you do have to pay for your care.

So now you are saying I should take responsibility for myself? Isn't that my position?

You tell me.  If you live in the UK, you get healthcare free at the point of delivery but you pay for it though the tax system.  So if you are hit by a car, you never pay a penny until you have income again.

Do you feel that is oppressive?

So if I don't want to pay the taxes and instead pay the doctors directly, you want me violently forced into a cage where I'll get raped? How nice of you.

Woah are we an emotional little thing tonight?  

Paying doctors directly would require doctors to charge a fee.  In the UK, doctors don't do that.  Its always a salary and bonus.  You can't expect people to set up a special system just for you.  

Out of curiosity, since what you propose is more expensive, why would you want to do that that?

Hawker
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July 07, 2012, 08:09:55 PM
 #71

note: This is a answer to the question at the top. Typing on a Kindle is slow.


Nah I am fine if you pay for it Wink (But thanks for the ad hominem)

...snip...
I am not responsible for other people unless I choose to.

Thing is, I don't believe you.  Its people like you who say they want freedom that actually do show up needing treatment and the community has to provide it.  You may say you want the community to not treat you when you are sick, but then when you get sick we are stuck with you.  You may now say that the community should let your baby die if you are broke; but when it comes to it, you will not be happy if we let your baby die.

So sadly, you are one of those who need to be compelled to pay their way.  Don't be embarrassed - lots of people are free-loaders and you have no reason be be ashamed that you want to be one too.

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July 07, 2012, 08:13:43 PM
 #72

cryptoanarchist, you haven't answered this:

Quote
2/3. Even in a system with lower cost health care due to the free market, there will still be people who cannot afford to pay. They may be living month to month, or they may even be destitute and have no money whatsoever. What happens to them?

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July 07, 2012, 08:19:14 PM
 #73

You make it sound simple.  If a man leaves his wife and baby and cancels their insurance, you are 100% happy to let that baby die?

If only there were a 100% guarantee that lack of insurance equaled dead baby. Oops, I guess we're all just imagining we exist, because certainly evolution and the eventual persistence of the human race NEVER would have happened without insurance. LOL

But with the government stealing massive chunks of peoples' income and interfering heavily with the industry so that people need insurance, government assistance, and in some cases, to file bankruptcy, to be able to get critical, competent treatment, there's a 100% guarantee that baby would be better off with a mom paying for care with 100% of her income and liberty intact, a competent doctor providing care with 100% of his income and liberty intact, and private charity aid if necessary being granted, instead of tyranny and robbery by proxy.

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wachtwoord
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July 07, 2012, 08:21:47 PM
 #74

Dude (=Hawker) you really need to learn to read. I already said I would most definitely come and ask fo healthcare if I had neither money nor insurance. Every rational individual would (please reread my posts before  have to repeat myself again). How hard is it not to give it to me?

Hawker
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July 07, 2012, 08:25:06 PM
 #75

You make it sound simple.  If a man leaves his wife and baby and cancels their insurance, you are 100% happy to let that baby die?

If only there were a 100% guarantee that lack of insurance equaled dead baby. But with the government stealing massive chunks of peoples' income and interfering heavily with the industry so that people need insurance, government assistance, and in some cases, to file bankruptcy, to be able to get critical treatment, there's a 100% guarantee that baby would be better off with a mom paying for care with 100% of her income and liberty intact, a doctor providing care with 100% of his income and liberty intact, and private charity aid if necessary being granted, instead of tyranny and robbery by proxy.

The American health care system is screwed.  But that is nothing to do with taxes.  You guys give drug companies patent monopolies and then say there is a "free market" in the drugs.  What's "free market" about having cancer, the drug company not having a published price list and you have to pay whatever they ask?

Anyway, that's off topic.  We are talking about legitimate use of the tax system to pay for health, roads, whatever.  I was seeing if the guy really accepted the "opt out" and the answer was no.  


Hawker
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July 07, 2012, 08:26:24 PM
 #76

Dude (=Hawker) you really need to learn to read. I already said I would most definitely come and ask fo healthcare if I had neither money nor insurance. Every rational individual would (please reread my posts before  have to repeat myself again). How hard is it not to give it to me?

Yes - so its reasonable to insist you pay.  I think we are in agreement here aren't we?  Or are you saying that you want some kind of special deal where you don't have to pay?

cryptoanarchist
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July 07, 2012, 08:28:20 PM
 #77

...snip...

So do you think it is ok for you to point a gun at my head and tell me I HAVE to pay for your healthcare, OR ELSE?? Is that the kind of thug you are? If so, our conversation is over.

No - you have to pay for your health care.  You may be healthy now but you almost certainly will get sick and you do have to pay for your care.

So now you are saying I should take responsibility for myself? Isn't that my position?

You tell me.  If you live in the UK, you get healthcare free at the point of delivery but you pay for it though the tax system.  So if you are hit by a car, you never pay a penny until you have income again.

Do you feel that is oppressive?

So if I don't want to pay the taxes and instead pay the doctors directly, you want me violently forced into a cage where I'll get raped? How nice of you.

Woah are we an emotional little thing tonight?  

Paying doctors directly would require doctors to charge a fee.  In the UK, doctors don't do that.  Its always a salary and bonus.  You can't expect people to set up a special system just for you.  

Out of curiosity, since what you propose is more expensive, why would you want to do that that?

You still don't get it, Hawker. You are the one asking for a "special system" that requires guns to be pointed  at the heads of productive people so that others can get free healthcare, while bureaucrats use the thug tactics involved to fill their own pockets which drives up the price even more.

My way requires no "special system". It only requires that people like you back the fuck off and let people buy and sell healthcare as they please.

What exactly do you think entitles you to push your ideals onto others by force?
cryptoanarchist
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July 07, 2012, 08:29:01 PM
 #78

cryptoanarchist, you haven't answered this:

Quote
2/3. Even in a system with lower cost health care due to the free market, there will still be people who cannot afford to pay. They may be living month to month, or they may even be destitute and have no money whatsoever. What happens to them?

Yeah I have. I even gave an example: Wal-Mart
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July 07, 2012, 08:35:40 PM
 #79

Dude (=Hawker) you really need to learn to read. I already said I would most definitely come and ask fo healthcare if I had neither money nor insurance. Every rational individual would (please reread my posts before  have to repeat myself again). How hard is it not to give it to me?

Yes - so its reasonable to insist you pay.  I think we are in agreement here aren't we?  Or are you saying that you want some kind of special deal where you don't have to pay?

Are you mentally handicapped or just really stubborn? I already gave you the answer:

1. DO NOT force anyone to pay
2. Don't provide the service to those that do not pay (es even if the ask lol)

It's not anywhere close to being complicted

Hawker
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July 07, 2012, 08:36:27 PM
 #80

...snip...

So do you think it is ok for you to point a gun at my head and tell me I HAVE to pay for your healthcare, OR ELSE?? Is that the kind of thug you are? If so, our conversation is over.

No - you have to pay for your health care.  You may be healthy now but you almost certainly will get sick and you do have to pay for your care.

So now you are saying I should take responsibility for myself? Isn't that my position?

You tell me.  If you live in the UK, you get healthcare free at the point of delivery but you pay for it though the tax system.  So if you are hit by a car, you never pay a penny until you have income again.

Do you feel that is oppressive?

So if I don't want to pay the taxes and instead pay the doctors directly, you want me violently forced into a cage where I'll get raped? How nice of you.

Woah are we an emotional little thing tonight?  

Paying doctors directly would require doctors to charge a fee.  In the UK, doctors don't do that.  Its always a salary and bonus.  You can't expect people to set up a special system just for you.  

Out of curiosity, since what you propose is more expensive, why would you want to do that that?

You still don't get it, Hawker. You are the one asking for a "special system" that requires guns to be pointed  at the heads of productive people so that others can get free healthcare, while bureaucrats use the thug tactics involved to fill their own pockets which drives up the price even more.

My way requires no "special system". It only requires that people like you back the fuck off and let people buy and sell healthcare as they please.

What exactly do you think entitles you to push your ideals onto others by force?

The issue here is you must pay for your health care.  No-one, not even children or disabled, gets free health care in the UK.  Everyone has to pay towards the cost.  IF you live here, you too have to make a contribution.  


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