JaredR26
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 07:34:16 PM |
|
Someone will need to write a script that pulls the asicminer solo mined blocks and estimates hashpower from that at x difficulty. Anyone up for it?
|
|
|
|
Caesium
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 07:34:37 PM |
|
My question now going forward (for everyone, not specifically Friedcat), for an company like this, is there any advantage to using the pools at all?
Solo mining provides
1) No operator fees 2) All transaction fees (which have been consistently rising since Bitcoin started) 3) Less risk from pool owner trust 4) Less risk from pool downtime and DDOS attacks
At a cost of 1) More variance (who cares when you have significant hash power)
You've summed it up pretty well. With this proportion of the network hashrate variation really isn't a problem. Who cares if we don't find a block for 6 hours, then find 5 within 5 minutes, it'll all go into the weekly dividend anyway.
|
|
|
|
JaredR26
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 07:39:26 PM |
|
"Diversification is a protection for ignorance, It makes very little sense for those who know what they're doing." - Warren Buffet
Don't know if this is Warren Buffet supporting the idea of diversification, or sarcasm. Let's take a look at what Warren has as of Dec 21, 2012. 1.) Wells Fargo & Co ........ financial 2.) Coca Cola Co .... consumer 3.) International Business Machines .... tech company 4.) American Express Co .... financial 5.) Procter & Gamble Co .... consumer goods 6.) Wal Mart Stores Inc .... department stores 7.) U S Bancorp Del ... financial 8.) Directv ... cable tv service 9.) Davita Inc ... health care 10.) Phillips 66 ... oil and gas 11) KFT ... food 12) INTC .... tech 13) Viacom ... cable tv service 14) Ingersol Rand ... industrial goods 15) National Oil Well Varco ... oil and gas 16) Johnson and Johnson ... drug etc. His personal wealth is comparable to the market value of a lot of those companies. I'd say he diversifies partly because he's forced to. It's hard to buy a lot of shares even when you have the money, and when you try it's hard not to end up buying more expensive shares. Then it's also not easy to find a nice way to cash out when you hold lots of stock. Just to be clear... Buffet's net worth: ~53B Walmart's market cap: 256B Proctor and gamble: 216B Johnson & Johnson: 239B Wells fargo: 213B IBM: 230B To pretend like he is "forced" to diversify is to completely ignore the scale of those companies. Just adding those 5 up is an order of magnitude off from his net worth. I'm not taking a side or making any point other than that particular logic doesn't work here.
|
|
|
|
runeks
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 980
Merit: 1008
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 07:45:16 PM |
|
Someone will need to write a script that pulls the asicminer solo mined blocks and estimates hashpower from that at x difficulty. Anyone up for it?
I'm working on it.
|
|
|
|
mc_lovin
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1000
www.bitcointrading.com
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 07:58:02 PM |
|
"Diversification is a protection for ignorance, It makes very little sense for those who know what they're doing." - Warren Buffet
Don't know if this is Warren Buffet supporting the idea of diversification, or sarcasm. Let's take a look at what Warren has as of Dec 21, 2012. 1.) Wells Fargo & Co ........ financial 2.) Coca Cola Co .... consumer 3.) International Business Machines .... tech company 4.) American Express Co .... financial 5.) Procter & Gamble Co .... consumer goods 6.) Wal Mart Stores Inc .... department stores 7.) U S Bancorp Del ... financial 8.) Directv ... cable tv service 9.) Davita Inc ... health care 10.) Phillips 66 ... oil and gas 11) KFT ... food 12) INTC .... tech 13) Viacom ... cable tv service 14) Ingersol Rand ... industrial goods 15) National Oil Well Varco ... oil and gas 16) Johnson and Johnson ... drug etc. His personal wealth is comparable to the market value of a lot of those companies. I'd say he diversifies partly because he's forced to. It's hard to buy a lot of shares even when you have the money, and when you try it's hard not to end up buying more expensive shares. Then it's also not easy to find a nice way to cash out when you hold lots of stock. Just to be clear... Buffet's net worth: ~53B Walmart's market cap: 256B Proctor and gamble: 216B Johnson & Johnson: 239B Wells fargo: 213B IBM: 230B To pretend like he is "forced" to diversify is to completely ignore the scale of those companies. Just adding those 5 up is an order of magnitude off from his net worth. I'm not taking a side or making any point other than that particular logic doesn't work here. Just wait until those billions start flowing to Bitcoin.. ASICMINER shares around $250 right now (2 x $125). When a Bitcoin costs $1000's of dollars in the next couple years, the ASICMINER shares could become very very valuable.
|
|
|
|
richard_dein
Member
![*](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/star.gif)
Offline
Activity: 63
Merit: 10
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 08:14:29 PM |
|
To pretend like he is "forced" to diversify is to completely ignore the scale of those companies. Just adding those 5 up is an order of magnitude off from his net worth.
I'm not taking a side or making any point other than that particular logic doesn't work here.
Yeah... no. Imagine you have a lot of money and considering buying 4000 ASICMINER shares. That's just 1%, but it's still not easy. In fact, it's going to be very, very difficult. Even if you to buy at 2.2 per share (slightly above the price at btct) you might not even get 500 in one day. If you try to spread it out in a week or so you might end up paying say 2.5 per share. If you spread it out in a month you won't really get a good deal either, because ASICMINER would probably still rise at an uncomfortable pace. Even if you still decide to spread it out over a relatively long time frame, you'd be sitting on an idle pile of money for some time; if there's something better while you're waiting, you'd like to put your money there. To actually get a good deal you probably need to talk to some large shareholders who is thinking of cashing out, and be careful not to advertise so much that the share price rockets up because you're too famous for being rich, or really be patient with your buying strategy. Both of these happen quite a lot. Now Warren Buffett probably faces this quite often. Every time a new pile of cash arrives at his hand, he has to think of ways to turn them into shares. Then there's the painful time of cashing them out; if you try to sell 4000 shares of ASICMINER-PT on btct at once, you see most of your shares turning to peanuts. "Comparable to the market value" was more of a matter of speech, because even with one tenth of his wealth it's not an easy task to turn all money into shares of a handful of companies at good prices.
|
|
|
|
miTgiB
Full Member
![*](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/star.gif) ![*](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/star.gif)
Offline
Activity: 251
Merit: 100
Du hast
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 08:27:57 PM |
|
"Diversification is a protection for ignorance, It makes very little sense for those who know what they're doing." - Warren Buffet
Don't know if this is Warren Buffet supporting the idea of diversification, or sarcasm. Let's take a look at what Warren has as of Dec 21, 2012. 1.) Wells Fargo & Co ........ financial 2.) Coca Cola Co .... consumer 3.) International Business Machines .... tech company 4.) American Express Co .... financial 5.) Procter & Gamble Co .... consumer goods 6.) Wal Mart Stores Inc .... department stores 7.) U S Bancorp Del ... financial 8.) Directv ... cable tv service 9.) Davita Inc ... health care 10.) Phillips 66 ... oil and gas 11) KFT ... food 12) INTC .... tech 13) Viacom ... cable tv service 14) Ingersol Rand ... industrial goods 15) National Oil Well Varco ... oil and gas 16) Johnson and Johnson ... drug etc. His personal wealth is comparable to the market value of a lot of those companies. I'd say he diversifies partly because he's forced to. It's hard to buy a lot of shares even when you have the money, and when you try it's hard not to end up buying more expensive shares. Then it's also not easy to find a nice way to cash out when you hold lots of stock. Just to be clear... Buffet's net worth: ~53B Walmart's market cap: 256B Proctor and gamble: 216B Johnson & Johnson: 239B Wells fargo: 213B IBM: 230B To pretend like he is "forced" to diversify is to completely ignore the scale of those companies. Just adding those 5 up is an order of magnitude off from his net worth. I'm not taking a side or making any point other than that particular logic doesn't work here. Berkshire Hathaway's market cap (464B) which is what owns all those above is the 5th largest company in the world, behind Exxon Mobil, Apple, General Electric, and Cheveron. Buffet's net worth is just his holdings in BRK-A Also, not taking sides, the man is very talented with investing, I wish I could learn 1/2 of what he's forgotten over the years.
|
|
|
|
Dexter770221
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1029
Merit: 1000
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 08:29:49 PM |
|
.... talk to some large shareholders who is thinking of cashing out ...
Like DeaDTerra https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210933.0I'm wondering what he heard there that he want to dump 2800 shares... Price dropped already...
|
Under development Modular UPGRADEABLE Miner (MUM). Looking for investors. Changing one PCB with screwdriver and you have brand new miner in hand... Plug&Play, scalable from one module to thousands.
|
|
|
CMMPro
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 08:48:17 PM Last edit: May 20, 2013, 09:03:57 PM by CMMPro |
|
It's nothing new, he has been selling G.ASICMiner-PT for a few weeks...they had ~4130 shares, 2800 left. Closing down 'Gamma' fund.
No FUD to spread here sorry.
|
|
|
|
sleger
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 08:51:14 PM |
|
On the other side there is TAT who still needs to buy about that amount so they should just work out a deal between themselves at mid price. Market price should therefore not move.
|
|
|
|
ThickAsThieves
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 08:51:43 PM |
|
It's nothing new, he has been selling G.ASICMiner-PT for a few weeks...they had ~3600 shares, 2800 left. Closing down a fund.
No FUD to spread here sorry.
This is correct, DT holds a large amount of shares on behalf of a bunch of fund asset holders. He is liquidating that fund to pay everyone out and close the old asset. Sure, it'll affect the market a bit, but only for a few days. ChEEpCoINZ!
|
|
|
|
ThickAsThieves
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 08:52:53 PM |
|
On the other side there is TAT who still needs to buy about that amount so they should just work out a deal between themselves at mid price. Market price should therefore not move. Possibly, but I try to buy off-market, so it's a little more tricky as I think DT wants to keep the shares within BitFunder if he can...
|
|
|
|
Franktank
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 08:55:32 PM |
|
And it begins... *Insert Inception Bass Noise*
|
|
|
|
btclvr
Newbie
Offline
Activity: 29
Merit: 0
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 09:18:35 PM |
|
You're not including transactions? What? https://blockchain.info/block-index/383941Transaction Fees 0.1392 BTC My question now going forward (for everyone, not specifically Friedcat), for an company like this, is there any advantage to using the pools at all? Solo mining provides 1) No operator fees 2) All transaction fees (which have been consistently rising since Bitcoin started) 3) Less risk from pool owner trust 4) Less risk from pool downtime and DDOS attacks At a cost of 1) More variance (who cares when you have significant hash power) If another fork event occurs, friedcat will have to be on top of it and potentially change the version of the protocol used for solo mining. See http://bitcoin.org/may15.html
|
|
|
|
runeks
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 980
Merit: 1008
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 09:22:55 PM |
|
Still working on the script. So far it says the following blocks have been mined by ASICMiner: blockhash blockheight difficulty timestamp 000000000000010c9335c90f6e1f2d2a9af73ca078d660c98988234309b9dba3 237079 11187257.4614 1369069056 000000000000007e6a981b8d2604801dd11f8a668d7b474f0f828a9e4c30c0d5 237088 11187257.4614 1369074825 000000000000001c9b6fb89f95d1676d41f160f4f5ccf102243a6ef7ff015da4 237097 11187257.4614 1369082215 0000000000000105874616cf0700309a068ea89377077c432e52d8c18bbbb0b2 237099 11187257.4614 1369083698
|
|
|
|
MikkisJ
Member
![*](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/star.gif)
Offline
Activity: 126
Merit: 11
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 10:54:50 PM |
|
This is a noob question...
How does transfer of shares happen? I understand the owners of shares are in your database, but how can I see when someone transferred shares to another owner, me?
|
|
|
|
ex-trader
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 11:32:08 PM |
|
Ok, I will do the heavy math for you ![Tongue](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) 21.000.000 btc - 11.000.000 btc = 10 more millions to mine. (total coins minus already mined coins). 10.000.000 btc / 400.000 pcs = 25 BTC per share (if we mine 100% of it). So, number of coins yet to be mined per share is: 2.5 btc if we maintain 10% 6.25 btc if we maintain 25% 12.50 btc if we hit 50% 25 btc if we somehow hit 100% ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) That would be correct if in your examples above (using 10%) you were happy to invest 2.5 BTC now and wait about 10-20 years to receive the same 2.5BTC back in mined coins (ignoring costs/fees/electricity etc). If on the other hand you want to actually earn a return on your risky investment then the value has to be discounted by your desired return rate. I did the maths many pages ago, the relevant bit is: "If ASIC Miner could mine 10% of all coins forever, then they mine 1Mn BTC for a total of 2.5 BTC/share (ie 1Mn/400k) Assuming that an investor wanted a positive net return then they'd pay less than 2.5BTC to buy that income stream, probably nearer 1BTC, for a roughly 25% IRR over the long holding period." With this in mind and assuming a 20% long-term share 2BTC is a fair value right now. The counter-argument is the possible added value of transaction fees, but at this stage it is very unclear what these will be worth.....
|
|
|
|
sleger
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 20, 2013, 11:37:16 PM |
|
That is assuming a 20% market share which could very well be their mining market share. But in addition there is hardware sales, which at the current price are probably sold at the "right" price, as in exactly for how many bitcoins they would bring back. So indirectly AM could own well more than 50% of the share indirectly through their sales, and the sales bring income very fast. So there are some arguments for AM shares to be priced well more than 2 BTC.
|
|
|
|
stslimited
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 21, 2013, 12:08:47 AM |
|
That is assuming a 20% market share which could very well be their mining market share. But in addition there is hardware sales, which at the current price are probably sold at the "right" price, as in exactly for how many bitcoins they would bring back. So indirectly AM could own well more than 50% of the share indirectly through their sales, and the sales bring income very fast. So there are some arguments for AM shares to be priced well more than 2 BTC.
correct and they deliver much faster than all other sha-256 asic companies. (I received mine in New York 48 hours from receipt of payment) so they could have that market cornered There could be an opportunity for them to sell more shovels
|
|
|
|
bobboooiie
|
![](https://bitcointalk.org/Themes/custom1/images/post/xx.gif) |
May 21, 2013, 12:28:33 AM |
|
It's nothing new, he has been selling G.ASICMiner-PT for a few weeks...they had ~4130 shares, 2800 left. Closing down 'Gamma' fund.
No FUD to spread here sorry.
Wait, what happens to poeple who have PT`s from them ? Am I still gonna be able to trade and who is gonna provide liqudity for market ?
|
|
|
|
|