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So what is the deal with these.  I keep hearing this same thing mentioned over and over again.

x11 - some of the algos contained with in this mish mash .... apparently only draw 50% of the power of scrypt and result obviously in lower temps?

 is this just marketing misinformation?  I mean the very fact that the miners most people are using to mine these algos are not yet using the cards full capacity does NOT mean some people on here don't have miners for these algos that do use the cards full capacity and are more efficient?  

It it really like me giving you the same car as i have. Then limiting yours to 1000rpm and first gear... and then saying after 1 hour look you've used half the fuel and your engine is only half as warm as mine and i have been driving around in 6th gear at 3000rpm.....  I forget to mention you have only travelled 5 miles where as i have travelled 20x further.

Are these new algos just easier opportunity for those in the know to shaft the average gpu miner without even purchasing new hardware to do it?


Do these miners that seemingly only use 50% of the power of the card to mine these algos .....have a lot of room for optimisation ??  

Seems like most could be mining these thinking how efficient they are when really they are just running detuned settings? whilst others are in effect getting a huge advantage??


Or is that unlikely and everyone is mining on a fair playing field??

They are not as memory intensive as scrypt it would seem so are open to a lot of SECRET optimisation by those in the know?

Seems this new list of seemingly endless algos are getting a lot of hype lately.

Also it has been said that building asics for these would not be anywhere near as hard as it was for a scrypt asic............ so you can be sure that there will be lots of secret asic miners raping gpu miners hard soon on these algos if that is not already happening?

There could well be already plenty of asics out there for a lot of these algos ....?

Then how about x11 itself ... seems like just a marketing name that sounds cool? however is it really an advancement or backward step that is open to exploitation of gpu miners above and beyond scrypt even?

Tell me some good things about x11 that push it above the chained algos and scrypt N we already have?

SO FAR IT SMELLS LIKE X11 IS AT BEST MARKETING HYPE OVER NOTHING....AT WORST A SCAM SINCE PEOPLE ARE SEEING 1.8GH AND 1.2GH MINERS SHOWING UP ON THE POOLS... that is VERY strange. Are there modified miners for x11 which are getting 5x 10x 20x 100x the hashing rate? or are there some who have x11 asics?  

However some questions that still have not been answered by page 6 on this thread....

x11 - does it have any clear advantages over algos coins are already using or just bullshit with nothing to back it up??

1. is it more efficient than qrk?
2. is it more secure than qrk?
3. is it more efficient than scrypt? or is the miner just crippled and can't use the full potential of the card?
4. are there more efficient miners already out for x11 that are more optimised?
5. is it more asic resistant that qrk?
6. is it more asic resistant that scyptN , scrypt jane
7. is it x12, x13, x99 going to be better? will we need to fork all of the coins over and over again?


just tell me some definite benefits of x11 that are real benefits not maybe beneficial but then again if the miner can be improved shown to not be beneficial at all.


come on how hard is it to sell the best solution out there right now???

SO FAR WE ARE ON PAGE 6 - CLIFF NOTES -


X11 THERE IS NO EVIDENCE YET TO SUGGEST IT IS MORE  ASIC RESISTANT THAN SCRYPT N OR SCRYPT JANE WITH HIGH N OR QRK
X11 THERE IS NO EVIDENCE YET TO SUGGEST IT IS MORE SECURE THAN QRK ALGOS
X11 THERE IS NO EVIDENCE YET TO SUGGEST IT IS MORE EFFICIENT THAN QRK ALGOS
X11 HAS SOME 1.8GH AND 1.2GH MINERS AROUND - can the x11 miner be greatly modified by some to increase hash rate in a very big way? are there already x11 asics? this still seems to be in question.

conclusion thus far = x11 is marketing hype with no real advantages over previous algos or algo chains before it..

If you are a person reading this thinking .... but really really it does use less electricity and my cards run cooler..... this is a PROBLEM not essentially an advantage. If you understand that the mining software you are using is probably limited or inefficient and therefore not pushing your gpu to the full extent. It's like me and you having the same car. They are identical. I offer to race you but yours i have now limited to 1000revs and first gear. Mine is not. I thrash you in the race but you are still happy because you burned less fuel and your engine is nice a cool.  That is not the point. There could be people racing around with miners mining your coin at a way faster rate....and possibly not only way faster way more effiicient too... What if my car can not only go 10x as fast it can go 10x as far too? how would you like that? would you prefer i remove the rev limiter and allow you to engage a few more gears too?  Hmmm seems more unfair than even me pulling up in a lambo next to your 10yr old mid range piece of crap and thrashing you right? since at least i had to pay a lot more money for my lambo?? that was an asic analogy by the way.... however again i don't have an asic and would not order a scrypt asic now. The race is on for those and if you're not first in who knows if you will get your money back. However x11 is not the answer from what i can tell. It seems to offer nothing above and beyond current algos and is as  open to all of  the problems and more so than some algos we already have.  Don't be too fast to push your favourite coin into converting to x11 yet. Let' wait for the real boffins to show up and explain why it is better for us all. I currently have interest in 3 new coins all of which the community is kind of pushing for x11 adoption....even i was a few days ago. Now though i am almost certain it is a BIG mistake and is not worth it at best and i open to vast exploitation at worst.

However this is not a fact this is speculation at this point. However the points above seem to be actual facts.

THIS HAS NOW TURNED ALSO INTO A DISCUSSION REGARDING DRKCOIN...THANKS TWO TAOWAY A HELPFUL PERSON WHO HAS HIGHLIGHTED TO FACTS PREVIOUSLY OVER LOOKED.

1. Dark coin (called some other name) was launched  and the BLOCK EXPLORER shows a huge amount of blocks being instamined almost INSTANTLY.
2. Dark coin bolstered their instamine by starting WITHOUT AND WINDOWS QT ( THANKS FOR BRINGING THIS TO MY ATTENTION)

Looking at your post history, it looks like you may already know the answer.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=92110;sa=showPosts;start=0

But it is fun to spread shit on a forum all day.

Groestlcoin has the lowest temperature/power usage from my tests, actually

it's by design: the algorithm is made to be hard to parallelize

I am asking a genuine question.... the answers given so far are not conclusive.

Fucking noob trolls butting in with their bullshit answers. If you have nothing to add GFTO

If x11 has something to add here let's here about it.......or else let's get rid of the x11 myth now.

It's not doing the same amount of work that's why..

and someone please show me your miner running at perm 100% cpu usage lol

hmm i suspect the coin starter has an angle he has been exploiting from day 1 and i already mentioned it more than once.
i should go confirm it if i can and put an end to this X11 propaganda bullshit.

taking the Quark algo and adding a couple more hashing fuctions doesn't mean you made something new..
the whole deal here is they decided to give their useless pile of shit mash up of hashing algo's a snazzy name
and that strikes it big with kids that wish they knew anything about hashing algo's.
so i think all we are seeing now is bag holders spouting off about their Brand Name being fanboys to defend their flash mined coins their bag holding.

also comparing scrypt to that crap is retarded.
would you compare two guys having a foot race but one runs 1 mile and another run 10 miles ? and saying the guy wins because he did 1 mile first ?
It's seriously fucking retarded and i keep saying it over and over and everyone out there is seriously bloody stupid buying this scammy bullshit and brand name fanboyism.

The real question is there is a TON of wiggle room for the dev to have all along been corrupt about the coin launch and did he ?
There is no doubt most people are naive and gullable around here and don't even know about previous stunts that went down..
And many of us DO know these coin cloners simply get exposed and their coin dies off and they need to get an new amount and a new coin mod clone to flog..
why in the hell should you guys give the cloners the benefit of the doubt ?

edit:
I think i am going to expose this coin once and for all.. i have had enough of the bullshit going on.

edit:
also it is not more efficient because say Scypt-N coins are 3x more profitable but are using more elctricity.. do the math ........

So, when mining this coin with the current miner available it uses less power and the temps are lower. I understand this part.

However, say there was for instance another miner that was coded to make full use of the gpu's hardware would it then use the same power and run at the same temps as scrypt.?


What i am trying to ask is.... with these seemingly efficient algos..... are they really efficient at all?  could it be that the miner itself is just very inefficient as with the example i gave in my car analogy in the first post?


If that is possible then some people could already be having almost asic power advantages in comparison without even purchasing new hardware.??

It really does seem that high N factor coins are the only real asic resistant coins?

I am not talking down drk coin here, it's main selling point is the dark send anyway.............let's just nip the x11 over hyped bullshit here if it is not true. I had previously thought it was some amazing new mishmash of algos that made it very useful. However after asking around it seems this is some huge marketing ploy and a lot of misinformed noobs running around proliferating this misinformation.

However if x11 is really useful please let's have some x11 fans with coding experience explain in detail why it is superior to memory hard algos scrypt ect, and super memory hard scrypt jane with high N factor. Also if it is even better than QRK and it's clones or not.

Let's have an informed discussion so that noobs and those of us that are not coders can make an informed choice on these things.

Right now i think a lot of people could really be getting exploited by this x11 and other " efficient algos" hype.


If x11 has brought something new to the table above other single algos or previous chained algo coins that is great....let's hear from real coders regarding this. I have not really seen any discussion about it apart from those just saying how amazing they presume it is because it has more algos in its chain.

Come on coders help us understand.... is x11 a good thing or a marketing joke.

What about x15 if we throw another 4 algos in?  is that better?

Is it better to have them random or sequential in the chain?

I will post gpuz/cgminer screenshots if you would like of my gpu (7750) running script and x11 algos. I don't have a watt meter so I can't measure power consumption but one can assume lower temps, lower watt usage.

Yep, i mean nobody doubts that mining x11 with the current "widely known" x11 miners we have... uses less of the cards resources than scrypt or scrypt n, scrypt jane etc. So it does use less electricity and outputs less heat.

However, read the car analogy in the OP to see what we are really asking here.

I saw your car analogy, and I can't quite really give a solid answer. I mean, if everyone is using that algo to mine, what does it matter someone is mining "faster" as it is all relative to the algorithm. IMO, we should mine the most efficient algorithm energy and heat wise, as your hash rate is proportional. This does make ASICS easier to make as the more efficient an algo is, the easier it is to ASIC.

What he's asking is while you are mining x11 on your 'deliberately inefficient' software and GPUs, are there already those out there with optimized/tweaked hardware and software mining much more than the rest of you right now?

I'm not sure of the answer, but it's an uncomfortable question and I wouldn't be surprised if there are.

Wait he's asking if there is a more efficient miner of the x11 algo?

Exactly.

More over the next x11 claim is that is it more secure than previous chained algos for example qrk, secure coin, sif coin simply because it has more algos?  is this true?  with the previous ones they were random, this x11 is sequential so you can predict easily which is coming next?  so is it more secure or not.... i mean are chained algos more secure anyway than single algos?


Let's not decided yet , but really where are the x11 fans??. I mean those that are fans of x11 that are actually coders that understand and can explain to us in simple terms why they are fans.

I was very pro x11, but then when i started to ask a few more questions beyond the fact everyone else was saying it was awesome.... it appeared nobody really had any idea why it was awesome or even needed at all?

We had memory hard N factor coins and we have chained algo coins with randow hash selection?

why all of a sudden was x11 awesome and the new saviour when it apparently gives nothing new and is also very possibly giving serious advantage to those with more efficient miners?

There is a rumor that there are primed mining x11 miner that seclusive people are mining away right now . yes

Not just of x11 but of all of these algos that seem to only use a fraction of your gpus potential. I mean it could be that there is a bottleneck somewhere for these algos and that this is the limit of the card in its current design i guess. However we don't know that, and what is this bottleneck if it is not the memory?

I am not saying one way or another, i am no coder, nor have elementary understanding of crypto really. I am just asking is this mythical new x11 and obsession with other new efficient algos a load of bullshit and that most of us just have no way of utilising the full potential of our gpus whilst some people are probably laughing at this obsession knowing full well it is nothing to do with the algo itself being efficient as some people think, merely we don't have a clue how to mine it yet whilst they do?

In addition to this i heard that to build asics for some of these other algos would be far easier and way less expensive? is that also true?

+1 We feel the public miner is not utilizing 100% of the GPU, hence the lower power usage. We are positive the miner can be better coded to use more GPU power, if it hasn't already.

Yeah I get it now, as GPUZ claims on Avg. 89% loads, but WU in cgminer for me stays the same. If it could be better coded, what do you think the hash rate improvements would be? Also as stated before, what would the consumption increase be like?

who can say, these kind of things with way better optimisation can often yield very high gains...

and even this is NOT the point.... if everyone was then given the new miner that could utilise the full potential of your gpu... then it would be pointless because then everyone will mine using the same power and temps as scrypt? and there goes  any temps and efficiency argument for x11 or the other less memory hard algos.... this bullshit about efficient algos is just a myth?

when people are screaming about more efficient algos...... are they actually screaming these algos leave it open for average miners to get raped by those who know how to make better mining software.

So if we debunk the efficiency claims... we are left with the security claims...


Is x11 more secure than other chained algos?  is having the sequential just as secure as having them random?

What about we tag on some more algos make it x15.... would that be more secure.

If we are talking asic resistant is there point tagging more algos or just go with scrytn or scrypt jane with high N factor?

So far i am starting to see zero reason for any coin to use x11. I hope i am wrong because i see a lot of coin thread including some i have previously even suggested they should add x11.... now i see i was probably repeating a load of crap that i just heard and assumed since everyone was saying it and there were no people coming forwards strongly to say that this new mishmash was all marketing hype and no substance at best and at worst an opportunity for normal miners to be put at a gross disadvantage.

I personally don't care about ASIC resistance, as it's going to happen eventually. It seems ASIC resistance is a balancing act, if the algo is too "hard" then the GPU will be churning at max getting like no kh/s (in comparison to other algo's). I think the best way to go with this is just chain another algo to it every so often, so naming scheme could either be x11 to x12 or x11.1 or something like that....

I don't see where's a serious bottleneck or some conspiracy. Since X11 (and hefty, keccak and those others from sph-sgminer) is not memory hard, you're not stressing the memory controller, L2 caches and the ram chips.

You're used to scrypt, see it as a "reference" and say that others must not be optimized due to low power use and thermals. However, scrypt is the odd one out in the first place, a complete card fuck like Furmark or some videocard stress test.

I think that the best miner out there at the moment is sgminer when it comes to best performance overall!

Correct me if i am wrong please.

But that's the point. Imagine if I optimized a game to push my GPU as hard as Furmark does just to squeeze some extra work out of it. Both of us run the game and while you get 32 FPS using the exact same hardware as I am, I'm getting 48 FPS due to my secret optimizations under the hood. I know this is a very terrible analogy, but think about it.

None of this would be a problem if pushing the GPU or limiting the GPU is a user choice, much like scrypt. Let's say I mine a Scrypt coin and get 500Kh/s on my GPU stock, but if I OC and OV some I can push it to 585Kh/s; now durring the summer months this might be a problem where you live due in part to extreme heat, increased electricity price and increased power consumption, so I go ahead and underclock 50% and undervolt to about 60% and now get 255Kh/s. This makes sense to me; what doesn't make sense is claiming 50% less heat and power consumption while still hashing at full capacity.

Interesting.... since i'm not "clued up" with the design and workings of gpus... let's explore that idea further. I like to learn things...

I say nothing.... i am asking.

So just that i may understand what you are saying..... scrypt is stressing parts of the card harder than these other algos. The memory side of things in simple terms. Scrypt is memory intensive so it uses full memory bandwidth etc and can force the card to it's full limits. More heat and electricity used.

You are saying perhaps these other algos because they are not memory hard and do not stress the memory to it's full potential..... however the gpu could still not process these algos any faster not because the memory is being fully used but because other parts of the card are already stressed to the max. Therefore unlikely any more optimisation is possible regardless of the mining software?

Is that what you mean? This is what i was asking about when i was saying is there a bottleneck...........i mean surely if you could increase the cards calculating potential in all other areas except the memory parts then eventually the memory would be saturated by solving these new algos right? there is some part of the card holding back it having all of it's memory resources being fully exhausted?

Is that what you mean?

well this is exactly the point.... that miner gives the best widely KNOWN performace.............. however it seems your gpu is not working all that hard. Almost like driving a car at 1000rpm.

What if some people know how to unlock the rev limiter and step up the gears.... yes they may burn 2x the fuel but may be able to travel 10x as far.

This is what we want to find out.

Also .... what if x11 is not as secure as we all think against asics... what if there are already asics for it.

Would asics be far harder to build for scryptn, scrypt jane high n, and even qrk.  I mean what if x11 was less secure and more open to asics as well as not being any more efficient either???

That would kind of take the shine off of x11 wouldn't it. Actually x11 would look like a terrible idea.

Let's hope this is not the case.... but we need to look into it all the same. Imagine all the hard forking of all these coins having to swap back to scrypt N , scrypt jane, scrypt, QRK...

that would be terrible, let's explore x11 very very deeply before we all hop on board.

I agree with some of what has been said. As an example, GPUs mining SHA-256 doesn't run as hot as those running scrypt (and also uses a smidge less electricity).

With that said, does it mean that the miner isn't optimized? In the sense that "significant" improvements can be made, part of me says yes; there may be quicker opportunities to tweak the vectorizing. But this may be limited to an extent based on how the architecture interacts (I may be missing something regarding threading, so I'm not entirely sure.). Does this mean an already more efficient miner exists and only a select few know about it and use it? Wouldn't necessarily say yes, but I would say that's more likely with X11 than scrypt.

[I also want to call shenanigans on the lower draw; it seems much lower than what would make sense. However, this is from what I can gather, haven't had the chance to peruse everything in the source (and admittedly won't take all of the effort in doing so).]

I'm too tired atm, perhaps I didn't understand what you mean ...
Well, it could be hashing "at full capacity" with less heat, because the hash code is different. There are parts of the chip left unused, the code itself doesn't demand operations from what's memory related. There are not random addressing jumps like scrypt. Those parts just sit there because they just have nothing to do, while the arithmetic core is already at 100% usage.

I'll try to give a counter-example; the so called "CPU only" Heavycoin where the devs struggled to destroy paralellism and prevent GPU mining. It took 2 weeks(?) for the first heavycoin GPU miner to be mentioned. cgminer-heavy work-in-progress (that one needed to compile from source) could only reach 7(?) Mh/s on a 280x in the very beginning, then it raised to 11, to 15 Mh/s and I don't know how much it is now. Christian's ccminer could reach 13 Mh/s on a 750Ti and for a few hours it beat a R9-290. Reorder had to program, operate the pool, go on with his life, etc... Was someone holding the R9-290 speed vs a simpler 750Ti due to a conspiracy? No, of course not. It takes massive brain power, time, skill and personal effort to optimize miner code. Now, go and mine Heavycoin at the maxed out performance, and look at the temperatures.

Of course, I'm not trying to distract from the possibility that there are secret X11 miners out there and a few guys are mining at much higher speed than the rest of us. It could be! There have been lots of suspicions (or even confirmations) regarding private miners or optimizations during last months. However, that's a different discussion from what I'm trying to get at here.

Every algorithm in X11 are able to create by ASIC since day one, and it is not high memory constraint like Scrypt. The darkcoin dev also said.
Here is my thread : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=540160.0

+1

GPU miner and the source if somebody is up for some "optimizations" : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=475795.0

Sgminer does not work with me. I assume its same parameters as cgminer, doesn't work. Put the same stratum info into darkcoins miner, and bloop! Mining hiro xD

What are your parameters ?

I'm away from my computer, do not remember. Will try to post ASAP though.

Please don't talk about sgminer optimizations here. This topic is about the inner working of X11 whether it is architectural limited in ressource consumption or if this is just what the masses believe.

Here's the right thread for such questions: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=475795.0

No offense, just don't want to see this interesting thread going offtopic ;)
Thanks!

I won't! I will probably PM him/her if he/she is still interested when I get home from school tomorrow.

the problem here is that the persons able to build a far more efficient miner that uses the cards full capacity have no reason to release it. It hasn't been proven either way yet. However i think more time is required before we see a mass exodus from scrypt to x11.

Is x11 more open to asics than say QRK for instance since theirs is random not sequential.

Let's examine the differences between QRK and x11, does the mining the qrk algo seem to use a lot less electricity and produce a lot less heat?

I mean what exactly does x11 provide in terms of security and efficiency over and above qrks ??

Explain it to me so i can see exactly why everyone is wishing to jump to x11?  

Also why has scrypt jane lost favour to x11?  

If you were a developer now which algos would you be going for? and why?

Has x11 really had enough time to be tested?  and if there is nothing clearly superior about it over those that came before what is the point of it exactly.

Would tagging on a few more algos for x15 make it even better?

If we are really talking asic resistance x11 is nothing, i have heard countless times it would have been a lot easier to produce an x11 asic than even a scrypt asic. It has been said it would be far easier for an individual or small group of individuals to produce and x11 asic ?

So for now we really only have those with high N factor that seem resistant for now...

I believe the reason why x11 is rising in popularity is simply the fact it uses less heat and power. All algos are asic resistant, until someone makes a ASIC for that algo, so that's for me is irrelevant. It hashes 3-4x faster compared to scrypt, but again irrelevant, as everyone else is hashing "faster" as well.

e.g. with a p2pool node (http://drk.poolhash.org/) :


offtopic: off  :D

we are not here to discuss your particular coin....it is the x11 chain we are here to discuss.  However if you wish to directly discuss your coin...

so far we have already called into question

1. that x11 is innovative.... it is not, it is less innovative than qrks own chain.... the algos are not even random and the block times are slower making it probably easier to attack too.
chaining algos is not innovative ( perhaps you are talking about the dark aspect of the coin but then again as yet it is talk - i guess we await zero coin)

2. that is it secure ? seem post 1 it seems less secure than qrk too with regards attacks, again untested so a bold claim.

3. that it efficient - this is open to question, the chain is not efficient - the miner is possibly intentionally crippled, or if not intentionally then it has probably been vastly improved so that most of x11 miners are getting raped by highly efficient optimised miners.

4. asic resistant ... again already mentioned it would be less costly to create asic for x11 than scrypt. It could already have happened. Far less costly then scryptN and scrypt jane with high N.


The thing about scrypt is in a few months everyone will have access to scrypt asics cheaply in some form or another.

Right now it is entirely possible there are those running highly efficient x11 miners that give the same advantage to a select few as having asics really. Even then there could be x11 asics too since the algos in that chain are not asic resistant. X11 saying it is asic resistant is a lot less likely than scrypt jane with high N or scryptN being asic resistant.

So you need to change your sig because it could be potentially be spreading misinformation and blatant lies.

So really relying on drks algo is looking pretty weak, it is looking like marketing hype over anything else. Show me some real advantages over existing high N factor algos or chained algos.
Also x11 is getting cloned by every single new coin coming out now so again this is no longer a real selling point for drk.

If i was a drk coin supporter i would be touting it's drk properties that could be end up making it a rival to a real dark coin like zero coin, not pushing the x11 algo because as yet i see NO evidence to suggest it was even worth coming up with.

Drk has a reasonable community and dedicated dev so i am not knocking it really, however let's discuss x11 not your coin.

Yes, basically what I mean is that there's actually nothing useful to be done on parts of the chip. Scrypt is stressing more parts of the videocard, that's what I know for sure. Regarding if some things could be done to get more hash out of a card, if there could be better load distribution or work around existing bottlenecks, that I don't know.

To give you accurate not half-assed answers though, I would need to dig deeper into OpenCL, hardware articles and ATI/AMD manuals. I'm very tempted to do so, when I have some free time and peace of mind

Thanks that's what i thought.

If x11 is really a superior chained algo let's use it, but really we need to find out if it is or not. I was suggesting using it on a few threads and even was talking with a dev about switching from scrypt to x11 until he mentioned a few of the points i brought up here. I had just though there would have been a lot more questioning on this algo before everyone just jumped on it claiming it was the best thing out, so i just assumed it must be as great as everyone says..... then i was made aware there could be some serious issues with it.

Let's see if some super boffins turn up here to tell us straight if x11 is amazing or is a waste of time and nothing more than a marketing gimmick that seems to have gone viral with the noobs. All i hear is x11 x11 x11... be terrible if it turned out to be shit.

Honestly, the car analogy is probably a bad example. Cars and computer hardware are two different things. For example, you have a high mhz cpu dual core vs a 4 core low mhz cpu quad core. Obviously, the high mhz dual core will win most single thread processes, but the quad core will win most multi threads. In a car's case, a high revving 4 cylinder car has to do high rpm to match the same horsepower as a lower revving V8.

I'm not trying to prove anything. Truly, if you wanted to know if it was efficient or not, you would need a programmer and computer engineer to debunk it or verify it.

To much hype with this not as good as they say.

Whatever happened to BeeCoin? I heard that was THE shit.

Of course there are miners that mine twice as fast but not available to public. Maybe one day they will sell the license for the fast miner, right now they are using it themselves. That's why CGMiner is such a great piece of software, it was optimized to the max and open source. Too bad it stopped updating for Scrypt and The develer Never came back to update it for Scrypt-N.

One way to check for this is to run two, three or four instances and see if the sum of all four exceeds the single miner running. Can someone do that?

That is relevant in what way to a discussion on x11 you silly girl?  when i see people trying to distract from the core of the conversation i know they feel uncomfortable ...... although how you've made it this far with your obvious brain damage i can only imagine.

I support all FAIR coins that just happened to be the fairest/cleanest launch of any coin i've seen yet. Anyway i am not hear to talk about beecoin with you, if you want to pm me i can perhaps give you a few pointers on starting a fair coin if that's what you're after. If you want to check my history you will notice i support a lot of fair coins i am not against all new coins. Sadly the fair ones do worse than the scams since the scams have motivated devs that want to cash out their instamine/premine

Get back to cleaning those toilets and quit wasting time here.

However if you're a real slapper i'd certainly be interested in meeting up and furthering your education in person.

They are all cPoW Complex Proof of work, and yes its probably the closest to " fair" as you can get.

When LTC was released it was common knowledge that a GPU miner was out a lot earlier than people knew, this time around we have a GPU miner with a more optimization that has to be done.

The Power usage will probably still be good at "full" optimization.

Making cPoW the likely next contender for the largest part of the market , the Quark algo acts in exactly the same way as X11 as they are both " cPoW" .

im sure there will be more as well , and thats the idea.

QRK is better than X11?are you sure?just for 3 random algo round?
however, "X11" is a fashion name, and more and more people accept it, that's the truth.but IMO, it's not very hard to make X11 ASIC,but will it worth doing?Need 11 diff asic to a single algo? and I think It's easy to change by a hard fork, X12 X13 X14 etc?
X11 may be the new beginning of GPU mining.
and ,  i am a miner ,  I like X11 cuz it's very cool on my card!

Probably better to focus on the question of X11's value rather than the Glen Beck-ish "I'm just asking questions here" conspiracy stuff.  X11 is open source, as far as I know.  Pick it apart and see for yourselves.  That's the whole point of open source, yes?

The DRK dev has never given any indication that he's anything but straight up and even makes his real identity known.  That's not proof he's not doing something nefarious with X11, of course, but really, what proof can he offer that would be conclusive enough?

If there is any evidence of malfeasance, by all means bring it to the table.  Have someone build a more efficient miner, if it's possible.  But until there's one shred of evidence to cast doubt, the conspiracy bit doesn't add anything to the discussion IMHO.  

I hate that stupid ass acronym "FUD", but this is pretty much the definition.

Believe or not, you will not get the real answer from this question because there are lots of X11 lover.

but topics like this help stop some of the FUD

Hmmm

I think you are somewhat confused, i never said one was better than the other they are all cPoW;  X11 6hash X15 X "whatever" it actually is all a similar system.

The same miner will basically mine all of them.

good read but still no answers...  

i have read that forking a scrypt coin other to another algo (eg. n-scrpyt, x11) is a very risky procedure and
could cause mass confusion and easily cripple a coin. devs of scrypt coins know this and probably would not
fork over to another algo. if this is true could they be spreading rumors themselves? knowing that there
are other algos much better than scrypt they could be purposely down playing x11 or whatever other algo out
there. just a thought.

'Conspiracy Theory with Jesse Ventura' will continue after these messages.

It is not difficult to find out that the thread starter cryptohunter is really negative all the time. Just look around at his previous posts. I agree that the topic is interesting, but it makes me ill to just see him trying to spread fear and shit all around this forum. His tone is not neutral, indicating that he want people to make panic moves.


I agree with you. If you start a thread using a neutral tone and asking a question, fair. In this case the thread starter already have his opinion about x11 and just want others to share it with him. He is not asking a question, he just just trying to make it fail. Who knows why he is doing that.

Anyways I'm still interested in neutral answers with good fact, not speculations like the thread starter.

1) The algorithm is probably less ram intensive and it probably has plenty of room for optimization. That's understandable because the GPU miner was launched as a necessity in a short timetable, after DRK community gave a bounty to have a GPU miner developed quickly to counteract the possible existence of secret GPU miners.

Personally I tried doing #pragma unroll and #pragma unroll 1 (disable unrolling) tests to check the performance on my 5830 on the 15 sets of "for i =" of darkcoin.cl.

I could get around 5% more hashrate by #pragma unroll 1 on the fourth "for i" (947kh vs 939) and a #pragma unroll 1 with the 8th "for i" (979 vs 939kh). Interestingly if I #pragma unroll 1 on both the fourth and the 8th, speed goes lower than 939, so I kept the 8th.

Thing is, the unrollings don't always work the same on series 5xxx and, say, series 7 cards. I've also gained a couple percent on scrypt too: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=528062.msg5863333#msg5863333 by playing with unrollings but it doesn't translate to other cards well, so I wouldn't say scrypt was intentionally unoptimized.

2) So far as everyone is using the same program and only a few people (<1%) use something more optimized, everyone is better off since everyone is burning less electricity. Given the extremely low profitability right now of most altcoins, electric cost is a problem.

3) Having >1 hashes is better for security in the long term. If say a hash is broken / proven unreliable, you have another 10 to go on. If however your ONLY hash is broken = game over for a coin.

Thats a rumor spread by the ASIC MAFIA.

If you'd bother to have a look at what your GPU is doing with the ATI utility, you'd see that its running at 100% with X11.
The fact that it doesn't get so warm is due to the lower memory footprint and the overall lower cache utilization.

I'm not convinced either way on this question yet and I'm open to all info.

That said, my current opinion is this... I don't think it's as simple as "less heat/power than scrypt = inefficient". I think that's a totally reasonable and logical conclusion for a person with limited knowledge (like me, and most of us) But that's the problem. We don't know enough about any of this to make an educated assessment. We're just speculating based on... well, not much.

So here's my speculation - As a person who has mined X11 for about a week now, I can tell you my GPUs are getting stressed. They are also getting hot. One overheated last night and I had to shutdown for a bit. My desktop is slow, the same as when using high intensity in scrypt. The only difference I've noticed is my power use has gone from 700+watt to around 410watt. In a country with high electricity prices, that's great for me. That said, it varies. Sometimes goes as high as 420.

At the end of the day I think SpeedDemon is right...


If scrypt did'nt generate so much heat and use so much power would we be questioning X11? No.

As OP likes car examples I'd give another one: do you think that engine that consumes 50% more petrol and makes 50% more noise is obviously more efficient?

Also this:


Open your mind a bit guys, scrypt is not a final achievement of mining technology, even if you would like to.

 

Best answer to the X11 question so far is from n00bnoxius in another thread:

It's possible to have 100% GPU load and 1000kh in one instance, and 100% GPU load and 2000kh in another, more optimized one. The difference is that the code will be executed in less GPU cycles not that the GPU will be less loaded with work.

For example the first incarnation of the darkcoin miner gave me ~600-700kh. The second (sph-sgminer 4.1) gave me 900+. It was always 100% load, it's just that the optimized version did it better with the available GPU cycles.

I like the answer too but the question I have is what is this gap? Why shouldn't the output of one cycle go straight to the next cycle of hashing as input with zero waiting? Does it go to main RAM first, and hence the bottleneck between cpu ram / gpu ram? If so could it all be done on the GPU instead of cpu-gpu-cpu-gpu (just speculating).

SPAcoin is crypt N now. Some devs do care about their coins. And yes it is a risky move, I'm not sure litecoin could pool this off. Maybe if they do it secretly and having some GPU farms ready to mine the coin on the new algo.

Is there mining software better than sgminer for X11? Even of there is they get like 10% edge.

Also saying that that scrypt N is more efficient that X11 because of a coin is pointless.

Who is against scrypt N and X11? ASIC miners...

Just like when a noob asks if it is late to get into mining. You'll see some douchebags saying it's way too late like that is going to deter the OP and other people to get into mining so they will make more money. Human nature man...hard to bypass that.

SHA mining is running cooler than Scrypt on a GPU.

So Cryptohunter is saying it's not "optimized"?

Lol... No... Cryptohunter is seeing X11 as a threat... He probably has a few scrypt ASIC pre-orders...

I think it's more secure so its up to you if you want to add that to being "better"

qrk adds 3 more rounds of hashing randomly: so the computer doesn't know whether it will be lets say Keccak or Grøstl or Blake, but with x11 the computer remains certain about which hashing function will be used.

Another security aspect might be, since its block generation is 30 seconds, which means that qrk's algorithm with an element of randomness (unpredictability) will have to be cracked in 30 seconds to create a double-spend fork, so it's not only about the number of hashing functions.

If we are contemplating chances of cracking a certain hash, then shouldn't we be worried more about single-hash coins rather than 6 or 11 hash coins - which would require the cracking of multiple hashes in a given timeframe?

I'd say thats about it then. Maybe another 10%. The instruction set for GPUs and the according libraries don't leave a lot of choices for optimization.
There is no wonder software running 10 times the pace.

Thats right, but network security is also important.

i said CPU MINER

gpu miners are not even listed on the ANN page lol
when was the coin released ? and they are STILL have not added them to the ANN page yet everything else conceivable is ?
and yet its still paraded around as a cpu only coin and listed on the "cpu only coins" topic
and... they completely avoid how its being raped by botnets like ALL other Quark mods.. and yet brag about asic resitance loudly
speaking of which i love how they give Quark no credit (the attention it deserves)
should i go on ?

oh and you avoided my comment where i said i have proven endlessly that scrypt-n is far more profitable ;)

Pro Tip:
All quark mods / clones are Asic resistant not just Dark coin or X11 garbage..

What are you talking about?

VERY perceptive. You sir are smart !

i have no answer for that but it's a very real consideration we HAVE to factor in.
especially considering what some other coins have done in the past (they look for any possible angle or advantage as a substitute for premining)

jeez i almost fell out of my chair when i seen a smart comment LOL
so many kids around here mumble non stop with dick in there mouth :(

Quote from Rofo. That's not me.... Please quote correctly if you plan on doing stuff like this.

Network security is the overall challenge. No matter what algo and what axiom.
It should be secure independent of the momentary bandwidth.

It's more important to develop methods regarding the control of the coin itself, than to try to solve the problem with bigger networks.
Thats putting the cart before the horse, in favor of the ASIC MOB.

Coins should be developed according to the latest state of the art software. Any coin of value should keep it up to date.
And if it includes changing the algo or whatever, why not? Wheres the problem?

To all those on here crying the OP has an agenda behind it.... Let's not worry about that let's get to work with the facts...even someone with an agenda has no effect if the facts are not in his favour. Besides i have no agenda other than to find  out if x11 is worth all the hassle of switching over to, or is it a waste of time and a pure marketing gimmick??



1. is it more efficient than qrk?
2. is it more secure than qrk?
3. is it more efficient than scrypt? or is the miner just crippled and can't use the full potential of the card?
4. are there more efficient miners already out for x11 that are more optimised?
5. is it more asic resistant that qrk?
6. is it more asic resistant that scyptN , scrypt jane
7. is it x12, x13, x99 going to be better? will we need to fork all of the coins over and over again?


just tell me some definite benefits of x11 that are real benefits not maybe beneficial but then again if the miner can be improved shown to not be beneficial at all.


come on how hard is it to sell the best solution out there right now???

The ASIC MOB is out in full force these days ...

Another point is, that many of the main coin core teams probably have huge orders for ASICs too.
They probably have been bribed and been promised a lot of money will be thrown at these coins.

Its so obvious, a blunt takeover attempt, same as with Bitcoin.

And what is with Litecoin?
It's obviously a SCAM. It was sold as ASIC resistent.
Now the same people come out and say we need more ASICs, to make it secure.

It smells.

Stick to telling us the selling points of x11 over the algos we already have...

There is no interest in hearing your speculation regarding asic mafia here.

I've noted some simple points for you to look over above. Stick to the facts or GTFO we don't need the thread cluttered with your fantasy theories.

I have no asics ordered and have said before they look to be a waste of money, how much clearer can i be on asics. I don't have a scrypt asic, i don't have sha256 asic

Asics are going to be a waste of money... or a big risk with regards ROI same as sha256 asics are, if you are not first to get delivery you are taking a big risk.

Now we've established scrypt asics are not going to be worth it for most people.... let's get back to x11 and it's brand new advantages it does/does not bring over existing algos.


So far i have seen nobody explain why x11 was needed when we already had scryptN, QRK, and scrypt jane.

Start showing me why is it so amazing so i can start organising for the coins i am interest in to get swapped over to x11. Else i will just go scrypt N or scrypt Jane or stick with good old tested QRK.

Then again it may be best to switch it to merge mined scrypt for security if that is the most important part.

ASIC resistance, not asic proof. Its been a surprise there haven't been ASICs yet. Litecoin dev team has had there official response, I doubt that they were bribed not to change algo's.

asic resistance - - so more asic resistant than scrypt N? more asic resistant that QRK, more asic resistant than scrypt jane with high n? what about this myriad coin idea? is that pretty asic resistant or not?

is it true or not?  come on really i want to know the answer? i am asking not telling?

From now on, if some one wants to reply this thread, please answer the above question, otherwise, please don't reply, it is waste time and space.

I stick to what ever I find necessary to mention, like you, on the 300 other threads your spraying your fud.

Well here's the main advantages

- up to 50% less power
- for the moment totally ASIC proof, among other methods
- standard software available
- runs on standard hardware
- state of the art coins available, bleeding edge software
- very able and active developers

Sorry, you missed the topic.

Cryptohunter is not attacking "your" coin, he is just asking very legit questions. I also would like to get a detailed explanation on why X11 is using less power. If it's just a highly unoptimized public mining software or really an architectural thing.

It's 'you're' you illiterate fool, and you are not answering my questions you are just posting shit that means nothing. Either you are too dumb to address my questions or avoiding them on purpose.

-up to 50% less power is NOT essentially important you blithering fool for the reasons already posted 100x ie the miner is possibly not pushing the card to the limits - besides QRK is just as efficient if you are going on temps and power draw.

- asic proof - WRONG
- same as the other algos i mentioned already - scryptn , qrk, scrypt jane
- same as the other algos i mentioned already    "         "         "          "
- WRONG
- that has nothing to do with x11 itself moron.

So thanks you have described perfectly there is no need for x11 and it offers nothing new.

And wheres the point at all?
Changing anything in a coins wallet shouldn't be a problem.

It's a problem of deployment.
There should be an in-app update popping up, asking

"There is a new version for your wallet, do you want to download and install it now?"

And thats about it.

Seems like people are missing the point here. X11 uses less electricity because the cards aren't being run at full whack. The question is, is this the most they can do with X11 or are there people out there with an X11 miner that *does* run the card at max? If so then everyone mining X11 with sgminer is doing it wrong. If it isn't a level playing field then the cool/low electric running is as pointless as running a scrypt algo at low intensity for the same results.

look buddy you are not getting the point here, i did think you were missing the point on purpose to misguide others, however i see now you just do not understand the questions that are being asked.


try to look at these questions again and find the answers for yourself.

1. is it more efficient than qrk?
2. is it more secure than qrk?
3. is it more efficient than scrypt? or is the miner just crippled and can't use the full potential of the card?
4. are there more efficient miners already out for x11 that are more optimised?
5. is it more asic resistant that qrk?
6. is it more asic resistant that scyptN , scrypt jane
7. is it x12, x13, x99 going to be better? will we need to fork all of the coins over and over again?


just tell me some definite benefits of x11 that are real benefits not maybe beneficial but then again if the miner can be improved shown to not be beneficial at all.


come on how hard is it to sell the best solution out there right now???

I've seen two guys with 1.2 and 1.8 Gh/s yesterday on drk.suchpool.pw

As X11 is max triple the hashrate than scrypt, it means they have 400 to 600 MH in GPU power - except they use a more efficient software or already have X11 ASICs.

I can imagine GPU farms with 100 or 200 MH...but not with 600MH+! So currently it feels for me as we still don't have gotten the right answer here.

Well you never know.... Consider half the energy costs, double the rigs xD? IDK probably are x11 ASICS... Do you think its possible to have a gpu mine each 1 algorithm of x11? Would that increase hash rate?

Let me make the question from cryptohunter more clear.....

1. is it more efficient than qrk? HOW ?
2. is it more secure than qrk? HOW ?
3. is it more efficient than scrypt? HOW ?
    or is the miner just crippled and can't use the full potential of the card? Proof ?
4. are there more efficient miners already out for x11 that are more optimised? Please give list and How ?
5. is it more asic resistant that qrk? HOW ?
6. is it more asic resistant that scyptN , scrypt jane  HOW ?
7. is it x12, x13, x99 going to be better? HOW ?
    will we need to fork all of the coins over and over again? Proof ?

Yeah, and your sole purpose of starting this thread was to make propaganda against it.
All your "answers" show it. Details avoided. Keep it tabloid, for the average dumbass.
Let alone the point of developers. Has nothing to do with it, right. A coin should live off of its developers.

What have the Litecoin developers done to develop anything new in the past years?
It's normal behavior for development teams to build a wall around them and ignore outside developments.
They take progress as a threat to their working system.
It's a 100% sure road to failure, all the time. They either get fired, or the product fails.

There is no doubt then x11 was nothing but marketing hype.

At BEST there are x11 asics that only a few have but have had to fork out on new hardware- at WORST you can super over clock your miners if you know how to :)

LOL 1.8GH on x11 doesn't look good :)

Please answer the questions or be quiet.  We are discussing x11 here. You are diverting conversation to your OWN chosen coin.

Here have another go at answering the questions... anything other than answering these specific questions is avoidance... one employs the tactic of avoidance when they have no answers or the answers they could give would display they have been lying or hiding something they do not want you to know about.... is that you running 1.8GH on the darkpool?  come on how did you supercharge your miner? or how did you construct that asic on  your own?  Come now ....tell us the truth here.... has x11 been a big old scam from the start? hehe you crafty devil.

1. is it more efficient than qrk?
2. is it more secure than qrk?
3. is it more efficient than scrypt? or is the miner just crippled and can't use the full potential of the card?
4. are there more efficient miners already out for x11 that are more optimised?
5. is it more asic resistant that qrk?
6. is it more asic resistant that scyptN , scrypt jane
7. is it x12, x13, x99 going to be better? will we need to fork all of the coins over and over again?


just tell me some definite benefits of x11 that are real benefits not maybe beneficial but then again if the miner can be improved shown to not be beneficial at all.


come on how hard is it to sell the best solution out there right now???


Five pages and no HARD facts or evidence to support the need or use of x11. Now i notice the 1.8GH on dark pool though it does indeed look a bit scary for x11. Not only does it look like it provides no advantage over what we have, it looks like some people have certainly TUNED their miners or have asics. Sure could be a botnet or 2, or a 600MH scrypt gpu farm?? 

Even if that was actually real gpu on standard x11 miner software...which seems unlikely it still does not answer any of the above questions.

Far from x11 looking like the best thing since sliced bread, it looks pointless to actually dangerously like a marketing ploy with some big whales behind it pumping the shit out of noobs on their standard gpu standard x11 miners.

Well i checked in to find out if x11 was the best way to go for the coins i am interested in...... the answer still does not seem clear.  It doesn't look like it is though right now so i check back on this thread in a while to see if some gpu / algo/ math boffin has turned up and shown us either way on this interesting topic.  If x11 is the best way to go and gives us clear provable advantages over the algos we already had then sure let's welcome crypto to mostly move from scrypt to x11. However if it is shown to be nothing more than a marketing gimmick that give no real new advantage in any form over scryptN ,scrypt jane and QRK then let's save ourselves a lot of hassle.  If we suspect there are hash whales already using x11 to get even more unfair advantage, let's kick that shit out and give them the finger.

Now you're bringing your own discussion into lala land, really.
"They" don't have X11 ASICs.

The point is, that for the moment, ANY possible method to avoid the planned concentration of power is welcome.
And so YES, X11 is one of them, and it's for REAL.
It's a convincing concept, as is Quark, Scrypt-N, Jane, whatever.

I'd favor it, because of the low power requirement and the way the existing hardware is utilized.

Yes, but you need quite sophisticated software to control it in parallel.
And you would have to share the work for the rigs according to their share in the whole process to gain in timing.

I heard there are aliens mining Aliencoin which also runs on x11 and they have alien algorithm miners which run at alien speeds! They are not even marketing it. F*ck this gimmick marketing team secretly mining away aliencoin.

Please rally the other coins to scryptn, nfactor, qrk etc. These are optimized for GPU and will run at full speed with current miners.

Beecoin should be merge mined with Litecoin using knc asics! It will be secure and because of it's fair launch, it can become the 3rd crypto ala copper crypto!!

The low power requirement could be an indication of it's biggest issue here.

Also is you favour it based on the "seemingly" low power requirement.... does it use less power than coins with QRK algos?

This low power requirement argument is the most worrying of them all it does not hold water. I wonder if that person running 1.8GH and the other one running 1.2GH are not seeing this low power requirement advantage :) i wonder if their gpus are sucking up the max electricity it can?  or perhaps they are sitting there all nice and cool with x11 asics? who can say... i wonder if x99 would solve this issue.

The low power requirement argument seems like it could be kind of null and void. I hope you will start to see what we are saying here.

So far let's be honest here... nobody has given even 1 good reason for x11 to exist above the algos we had already. Can you imagine us having to fork every single coin over to x11 just to find we jumped into the hands of those that can mine this with a hugely unfair advantage.... sounds worrying to me.

Network size shouldn't be a security concern for ANY coin considered secure and of value.

Whats the matter with you dude?
The low power is a fact, I have a meter on it.
It's one of the good concepts for now, it may change tomorrow, thats how the world is, buddy.
And look at the coins man, people like them and money is going there.

Thats what you don't seem to like.

Hehe slapper, glad you're back. Those new meds are working wonders for you.
Funnily enough i suggested to beecoin and 4 other new alts that had a FAIR launch that they should perhaps consider going merge mined with some larger scrypt coins.

However as i have said before i am not interested in mentioning coins by name. This is not a thread to push your own coin choice on to others.

This is a thread to examine x11 and it's merits. Take a look at my simple questions and answer each one as honestly and to the limits of your knowledge. That is all i ask there is no need to take this hostile approach. this is simply a discussion. Here you go.... have a look through them and get back to us. If you want to come over to beecoin and support a fair coin then you are welcome. If you show us why x11 has advantage over previous algos then i will certainly be back on that thread and the threads of all coins i support pushing for x11 adoption..... come on do your part for x11 ....show me why we need x11 over and beyond scryptN, scrypt jane and QRK. I need to find out now because many are pushing for x11 adoption but i have this horrible habbit of trying to understand why i want something to happen other than it sounds kind of fancy and everyone else wants to do it. I need a reason that i can understand. Maybe i am just not getting it with x11. Help me understand by answering my questions. Thanks pal.

sorry but please answer my questions.... we know that running this perhaps inefficient miner draws less power compared to scrypt . What about compared to QRK? If it does not draw less power then i guess there was not advantage in that respect over previous algos was there?

The money is probably mining at 1.8GH the rest going there are not the money.

DRK has its clear advantage over many coins that being the dark send feature we are not challenging drk we are challenging x11.

If you want to mine drk.... great it has a good active dev...so go for it. However this thread is about x11 since every coin is now thinking of swapping to it

1.8H is certainly alarming. I find it hard to believe that someone with 600 scrypt mhs worth of gpus would point it all at darkcoin when they could mine something more profitable and use the proceeds to buy drk with instead. This would point to some sort of unfair advantage to make it worthwhile. People should be questioning this instead of mindlessly regurgitating the same 'but it uses less power' argument.

Another thing - anecdotally, Quark and HVC both seem to work my GPUs less than X11. I don't have a kilowatt to check for sure though.

You shouldn't start threads like this, if you can't accept facts you don't overview.

The algorithm is only a part of the system that makes up a coin.
There are other methods involved, to secure the proof of work concept (what you call "mining").

Changing any of them, at any time should be of no concern.
The deployment of the necessary software for future coins has to be improved.

X11 is very safe for the moment, because it is very unlikely that there are ASICs out there for each of the 11 algos.
Quark uses only 6 algos, so the probability for an ASIC is how much higher?
 

An the rumor there is a private version of a mining software out there running at better pace is spread by whom?
This is a propaganda thread, pure disinformation.

I happen to know one gpu farm that pulls ~1 ghs in scrypt. So, that'd be ~3gh in x11.

Yup and the best way to achieve it is by portraying yourself as a messiah for truth, get all agitated all over the place, use bold sensationalism and a myriad of other negativity. This fudge packer is actually giving a bad name to Qrk. If I was semi-interested in it, I am no longer because it probably has more phags and pricks like the OP in it. Not going to enjoy a community like that.

All of these algos are open source. Go ahead use what you like and improve it for others. There is no x11 vs other algos. Choose what fits your goals and go with it.

I miss the red big font Beecoin signature of his too.

Okay, sure I know x11 isn't optimized.  Hell there isn't a cudaminer yet, right?  And a bounty is out for that.  Who knows what kind of power we can expect from hardware using x11?  Nobody?  Well I have been toying with it using a 270x and a 6870.  The 6870 I can get to 1.05 MH/s.  I can't seem to reliably get the 270x past 1.25 MH/s.  Still playing with it, but clearly there is room from improvement.  In scrypt the same 6870 pulls 300 kh/s.  The 270x will pull 500 kh/s but I throttle it a bit to 475 for temps.  What will that cudaminer fork bring?  Do I think some people are shady and money hungry?  Yes.  Will it last very long?  No.  This thread is more FUD than advancement in this subject.  Maybe if you made "real" stick out as much as "BULLSHIT" or maybe used a different word, other than something that clearly states your stance.  Maybe then you will find your answers.

There's margin for improvement. My 6850 overclocked @950 pulls 1065kh while in scrypt it does ~280. I find that experimental intensity works better than traditional intensity, usually with a value of 400 or 800.

Yep xintensity 400 brings almost 150 kh/s more per card... Thank you! Now if I can start to optimize the 270x some...

It quite good algo less energy consumption. Less noise try mining hirocoin

Not true, qrk adds 3 more rounds of hashing randomly so the computer doesn't know whether it will be lets say Keccak or Grøstl or Blake, but with x11 the computer remains certain about which hashing function will be used.

Just because i currently have 9 inches of my considerable manhood in your mothers asshole does not mean you can call me a fudge packer. Hopefully your sister has a taste for fudge though....we'll find out in another few seconds.

Again answer my questions you retarded fool ... let me post them again for you since you obviously missed them the first time noob troll.

Who cares what you are interested in with your 0.5mh rig and 1000 cents you got given in some giveaway. Pathetic creature. What a silly little slapper you are ...take after the rest of your red neck skanky family.

You miss my big red font, your mom misses my big purple cock , you and your sister miss the taste of my ass.... how can i please you guys all of the time. Give me a break mofo.  I'm sorry to drop the tone down to personal insults or in your case glowing praise but still if you must operate at the gutter level you are accustomed to then i have not choice but to communicate with you in the manner you feel comfortable with.

Meanwhile let's get back to something more interesting............

Here are some questions you forgot to answer...

1. is it more efficient than qrk?
2. is it more secure than qrk?
3. is it more efficient than scrypt? or is the miner just crippled and can't use the full potential of the card?
4. are there more efficient miners already out for x11 that are more optimised?
5. is it more asic resistant that qrk?
6. is it more asic resistant that scyptN , scrypt jane
7. is it x12, x13, x99 going to be better? will we need to fork all of the coins over and over again?


just tell me some definite benefits of x11 that are real benefits not maybe beneficial but then again if the miner can be improved shown to not be beneficial at all.


come on how hard is it to sell the best solution out there right now???

Nah sorry that was a instamined scam coin i won't be trying that one. Examine the block explorer and cunning launch time with no announcement.

Really you know a 1GH farm in pure GPU power.... anyone else know this and can give some details.... how many 7950 are required for this ...or perhaps even 290x ....sounds interesting. Where is it based, who owns it....surely you can give us some details.

the algo = less energy?? you are still posting this after reading the entire thread?

That particular one has a mix of cards and is actually a nightmare in terms of homogeneity due to the various models, pcs, etc. Generally mines doge & lite. He's usually top spot or second spot in any pool he mines at any given moment.

heavycoin algo is better imho, also more optimized

How do you know it has a mix of cards?  also what user does he go under on the pools. This has to be the largest gpu farm i have heard off. Someone must know where this is, just the amount of cards and electricity must be mind blowing?


Come on what is the pool username ? you must know a lot about it else how do you know what cards it uses and also it is actually them on the pools.

What is the highest GH reading on a scrypt pool that you have seen them use? which pool was it? 

I would have thought 1 GH scrypt without botnet or asic would be crazy.... but i mean if you have seen it and seen the different cards they are using then we have no choice but to believe it.

Because the farm expanded in stages and the cards were bought in batches, thus hurting homogeneity (different models).


Yep the electricity in particular.


He goes "anonymous".


I haven't asked permission to disclose, and I think I wouldn't be given permission even if I asked.

yes

compare SHA-256 mining with GPU to scrypt
SHA-256 was optimized to the bone with Bitcoin, it was over 99% efficient compared to a "perfect" miner that didn't waste any ops anywhere because it only had a few ops here and there that were necessary but not part of the algorithm

yet it still takes less energy than mining scrypt, when scrypt possibly isn't even as optimized (there aren't several competing scrypt kernels afaik, but for Bitcoin there was fatk, poclbm, diablo, etc.)

Ok so that sounds more like the replies we are after.  Let me just understand this.

sha256 miners although almost 100% efficient running on gpu - draw less electricity and creates less heat than scrypt... can i ask by exactly how much less electricity? i've never mined sha256...are we talking 50%

sha256 mining you are sure was optimised to almost 100%?  what level of optimisation do you consider x11 miners to have at this point?

Can this therefore be a direct indication and something we can even apply to x11 ?

Also is there any reason at all why x11 could or should me more efficient than QRK?  in terms of heat and electricity used even when the cards calculations resources are maxed and fully optimised?

So far the answer i am getting on that is NO. However if you really think it is possible that is something we need to investigate and consider now.

the very first SHA-256 miner was only maybe 5% less efficient than the best one (poclbm was giving me good hash rates before a lot of these newer kernels optimized it by a few more percent)
people just found 1% improvements here and there a few times and after a while there were no optimizations left
some optimizations reduced the total instruction count by one out of 1300 (less than 0.1% improvement)

SHA-256 takes like 20% less energy to mine off the top of my head because it doesn't use the GPU ram as much
so I'm sure there are algorithms that take even less GPU power because they rape one part of the chip (bottleneck) and don't touch the rest of it much

OK so it seems that some algos will bottleneck certain parts of the gpu before others so since other parts are left redundant it draws less energy. I did actually ask that exact thing earlier in the thread but nobody took up on it. Okay so let's be fair... so algos on x11 could be running as fast as they ever will on our gpus and will burn less energy than scrypt? is that a fair assumption?  

However is 50% sounding correct? that does sound like some miner tweaks and mods could be very useful..the bottlenecks seem rather large here?

Also since none of these algos in this mix or qrks mix are memory hard, it seems those 2 should be equally as efficient since the algos will be creating these same bottlenecks and stoping the memory getting over taxed? or very very close too close to seperate really. So x11 is not ground breaking with regard the efficiency aspect since we can see sha256 and all the other algos in QRK and x11 are possibly just as easy on our electricity usage.


So the super new efficiency story seems to be a good marketing  at best or perhaps just wishful thinking.... but perhaps not as open to super tweaking of the miner as we thought could be taking place.

So we rule out going x11 based on efficiency alone...


Let's do it like this.... a kind of battle of the algos....


so for efficiency running on gpu with current miners - - any algo that is not memory hard?  qrk, x11, single algos ...sha 256 ... all the others...


so for asic resistance - - scryptN, vs scrypt jane - high n, vs QRK, vs X11.   Let's do that one now.... who wins the anti asic battle and why? technical difficulty to create and cost to create...lets take in all the factors here....??

Thanks for pointing this out. The ASIC MOB is pulling all registers now! Watch out.
Stupid, uneducated posters, street smart crooks, name calling, tabloid phrases.

You got anything substantial to add to your own thread OP?

Please troll, give your noob mouth a rest. We are talking here, don't want your continued screaming and shouting about asic supporters?  i see none in here.

This has nothing to do with asic support. Go back and read the entire thread. Then get your parents to read over it and assist you with your comprehension skills.  

flipme and slapper..... are you two morons a couple?

You could make it run much faster on a farm with a smart paralleling solution.
That would be a thread dispatcher for the algos among entities delivering a timely result according to the total cycle time.
Get a quote from the guys who do the weather forecast software.
Or from Disney, or lets call a name, PIXAR.

Or Google.
Whats up with the Google Coin. If it's for real I'd expect a real overcast for anything Altcoin.
They probably come up with their own algo.

Or maybe they'll just use X11, bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha bwahaha.

They may well use x11 but before they decide to they just need answers to a few of these questions.

1. is it more efficient than qrk?
2. is it more secure than qrk?
3. is it more efficient than scrypt? or is the miner just crippled and can't use the full potential of the card?
4. are there more efficient miners already out for x11 that are more optimised?
5. is it more asic resistant that qrk?
6. is it more asic resistant that scyptN , scrypt jane
7. is it x12, x13, x99 going to be better? will we need to fork all of the coins over and over again?


just yes or no with some kind of reasoning they can follow.... it can't be that hard can it to answer a few questions to the best of your knowledge?

If we had a direct answer to some of those backed up with some real data that could be a great starting point ...

@cryptohunter

You cant beat the trolls and you cant educate them. You are doing a great job with this thread to enlighten the community, but dont drive yourself crazy.  :)

50% might be the right amount, but I didn't find x11 to be the most efficient out of all algorithms
groestl so far is the most efficient on my computer (both the myriad kind and the groestlcoin kind)
I don't know how much more optimization those miners can get, though

there is nothing special about x11 at all

Here beggar, just to dismantle your house of crap I'll give you some details about the facts you don't understand.

1. is it more efficient than qrk? - There is nothing like efficiency to the algo itself. Software could be efficient. The algo is the algo.

2. is it more secure than qrk?

Yes

3. is it more efficient than scrypt? or is the miner just crippled and can't use the full potential of the card?

It does use 100% of the intruction set of available GPUs at a very good level of optimization.

4. are there more efficient miners already out for x11 that are more optimised?

No.

5. is it more asic resistant that qrk?

Yes, it uses 11 algos, Quark only uses 6. It could change to anything else tomorrow.
Fear mongering of "FORKING" is just a matter of deployment of the right software.

6. is it more asic resistant that scyptN , scrypt jane

Of course. The only advantage these methods have is an increased amount of memory necessary to run the algo.
That means higher power consumption and extreme utilization of the hardware, for nothing actually.
It doesn't improve the security of the challenge, it just takes more power to solve.
So it's, in my opinion, a step in the wrong direction, as is the assumption to make a coin more secure by the size of the network.

You`re trying to sell camel shit on a camel market here.

7. is it x12, x13, x99 going to be better? will we need to fork all of the coins over and over again?

No, I think X123 will be the final solution.

I will rename the "CPU Only" topic to CPU Friendly or something similar. The current, publicly available X11 GPU miner does NOT have a large advantage over the X11 CPU miner. That is why it is why X11 coins are on the list.

The current GPU miner may leave room for optimization.  

Hmmm interesting...let's take this step by step... you don't give clear answers so i will try to clarify what you are saying.

1. No x11 is not more efficient than qrk. Yes we appreciate the efficiency is due to the mining software and the gpu.

2. Is x11 more secure than quark ? you say yes with no explanation.... expand on this. Secure against what attacks? and how is it more secure?? (answer unclear at this time)

3. In your opinion with some justification the miner may not be all that crippled. Perhaps you are correct we don't know. Really 50 % gpu only and that is fully optimised?? Maybe there is a serious bottleneck somewhere and further optimisation is not possible... but i guess nobody knows for sure yet.

4. wow NO... as simple as that?  really, explain how you can guarantee this fact? we do need some reason to back up opinion, perhaps you have a good reason but really you didn't express it all that well.

5. Hmm does having more algos essentially make it more asic resistant. Does the fact these are sequential and therefore predictable not make it easier for asics than qrk since that is random?  I have no idea on this.. perhaps others can expand on this one. Either way are both x11 and qrk less asic resistant than memory hard algos?

6. No it is not more asic resistant that scrypt N. Since it will be most costly in terms of hardware to implement scrypt N asics. So it seems scryptN is more asic resistant due to costs? or you consider the costs of the extra hardware not as much of an issue as creating an asic to tackle the 11 algos?  

7. x123 ....... should we fork to this immediately or build up one at a time ? :)

thank you, yes i am enlightening myself also.... we are only trying to find the truth and yet such hostility ensues ....

There is no agenda here for my part aside from the fact i don't want to risk hardforking 3 coins i am mining now to x11 if it is not even worth doing so and there are better options.

I won't waste my time with you anymore.
It's a lot like listening to a try of a conversation between two parking lot hookers.

CU later

I'll try to decipher that .... however, thanks for your input so far you have been quite helpful.

Thanks, I really appreciate an honest opinion.
I always had a heart for the disabled.

Ah, great you're back again. Thought we'd lost you for a moment... so now you're back and want to waste more time. Can you take a look at these and clear up these points you made. I am genuinely interested in understanding your answers to the questions i asked you before.... here's where we were at.

Hmmm interesting...let's take this step by step... you don't give clear answers so i will try to clarify what you are saying.


1. No x11 is not more efficient than qrk. Yes we appreciate the efficiency is due to the mining software and the gpu.

2. Is x11 more secure than quark ? you say yes with no explanation.... expand on this. Secure against what attacks? and how is it more secure?? (answer unclear at this time)

3. In your opinion with some justification the miner may not be all that crippled. Perhaps you are correct we don't know. Really 50 % gpu only and that is fully optimised?? Maybe there is a serious bottleneck somewhere and further optimisation is not possible... but i guess nobody knows for sure yet. Even you can't know for sure can you?

4. wow NO... as simple as that?  really, explain how you can guarantee this fact? we do need some reason to back up opinion, perhaps you have a good reason but really you didn't express it all that well.

5. Hmm does having more algos essentially make it more asic resistant. Does the fact these are sequential and therefore predictable not make it easier for asics than qrk since that is random?  I have no idea on this.. perhaps others can expand on this one. Either way are both x11 and qrk less asic resistant than memory hard algos?

6. No it is not more asic resistant that scrypt N. Since it will be most costly in terms of hardware to implement scrypt N asics. So it seems scryptN is more asic resistant due to costs? or you consider the costs of the extra hardware not as much of an issue as creating an asic to tackle the 11 algos? 

7. x123 ....... should we fork to this immediately or build up one at a time ? Smiley

Quark's algo is the best I've seen. Sadly, I don't know if its worth a major investment because I'm not sure if the community can overcome the FUD from months ago or if the community can figure out how to market itself to people who will buy it.

x11 is mainly a marketing ploy.

Would people be interested in an IPO for my x50 coin? Much secure

I honestly wonder: why hasn't anyone created yet an algo that randomly changes parts of itself every x blocks? This would make ASICs impossible, and only FPGA possible to use, thus limiting the issue a lot...

No, it won't, it's just a matter of the software.
For the moment the only method to secure against ASICs is a combination of algos for which there are no ASICs.

A real rat race. But funny. I like it.
An opportunity to call out people for their true motives.

Every algorithms in X11 is able to do ASIC since day one because it is requirement from NIST to become SHA3 candidate.

Darkcoin (which first used x11) didn't do any form of self-promotion or self-marketing. It's one of the most under-promoted coins out there. Darkcoin didn't even use x11 as it's main selling point but rather DarkSend. How can x11 be a marketing ploy when there was no marketing for x11?

Ah really, give me an address of suppliers for each of those.
And if it makes 11 we gonna change to 12. Tomorrow.
You wouldn't even recognize the change, because we wouldn't even have to tell you.
Our software would just update what you generally are not interested in, anyway.

And don't start telling me crap about NIST.
It's the same institution responsible for the mandatory implementation of indecent light bulbs,
Ah sorry, it's incandescent, not indecent, but it is just that.

It actually is an organization on the declining part of industrialization.
We are teaching them how things are rolling.
They are among the stupidest motherfuckers you could have mentioned here.

Hi, glad you putting myriad in this thread.

Myriad is for sure not asic resistant. It has SHA256 and scrypt in his algos. BUT it has that nobody has and that markets havent valued yet, ie a very secure network. 51% attacks are theorically impossible as you must have 51% of the total hashrate, so you must be well prepared. So the main concern about ASICs is less or not important.

What the market need is a coin like myriad but with the possibility to switch one of ten algos if something smells. I mean the share of hash power for an algo could progressive. A new algo would have 0% at the beginning ang with each block winning 0.01% until it reaches his target share. The old algo would have the opposit until it reaches 0%.

Let alone the threat of dismissing an algo, there would be no Asics for it as you can change it very easily.

I really like X11 just because my GPUs run cooler. I don t think that it s garbage like everyone but sure as some margin for optimisation. I will not go back to scrypt for sure.

Im waiting for a coin which have 10 different algos, everyone of each doesnt have asics, and with the capacity of switching one if necessary with very little downside.
This is the best to be ASCI PROOF.  

Maybe that might help a bit:

Algos extracted from SPH-SGMiner sources

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=475795.0


- FC FuguCoin (1 time 256) R9 290 145MH/s  
    1 fugue256


- Ink INKcoin (2 times 512) R9 290 45MH/s  
    1 shavite
    2 shavite

- MYR MyriadCoin (2 (512+256))  R9 290  10MH/s
    1 groestl
    2 sha256

- GRS GroestlCoin (2 times 512)  R9 290  5.5MH/s
    1 groestl
    2 groestl

- Q2C Qubit (5 times 512) R9 290 5MH/s
    1 luffa
    2 cubehash
    3 shavite
    4 simd
    5 echo

- SIC Sifcoin( 6 times 512) R9 290 4.5MH/s
    1 blake
    2 bmw
    3 groestl
    4 jh
    5 keccak
    6 skein

- DRK DarkCoin X11 (11 times 512)  R9 290 2.5MH/s
    1 blake          
    2 bmw
    3 groestl
    4 skein
    5 jh
    6 keccak
    7 luffa      
    8 cubehash  
    9 shavite
   10 simd
   11 echo

- QRK Quark (9 times 512) R9 290  2.1MH/s
    1 blake
    2 bmw
    3 groestl  OR  skein
    4 groestl
    5 jh
    6 blake    OR  bmw
    7 keccak
    8 skein
    9 keccak   OR  jh


- ANI AnimeCoin (9 times 512) R9 290 1.8MH/s
    1 sph_bmw
    2 sph_blake
    3 groestl    OR  skein
    4 groestl
    5 jh
    6 blake      OR  bmw
    7 keccak
    8 skein
    9 keccak     OR  jh

----------------------------------------------------


Sorted for Hash/s

   (Workload per Hash[1/H] : Speed[MH/s] -> worklaod*speed -> rel. Performance)
- FC FuguCoin       (  256 : 145   -> 37120 M/s)
- Ink INKcoin       ( 1024 :  45   -> 46080 M/s)
- MYR MyriadCoin    (  768 :  10   ->  7680 M/s)
- GRS GroestlCoin   ( 1024 :   5.5 ->  5632 M/s)
- Q2C Qubit         ( 2560 :   5   -> 12800 M/s)
- SIC Sifcoin       ( 3072 :   4.5 -> 13824 M/s)
- DRK DarkCoin X11  ( 5632 :   2.5 -> 14080 M/s)
- QRK Quark         ( 4608 :   2.1 ->  9677 M/s)
- ANI AnimeCoin     ( 4608 :   1.8 ->  8294 M/s)



Sorted for relative Performance:

- Ink INKcoin       ( 1024 *  45   -> 46080 M/s)
- FC FuguCoin       (  256 * 145   -> 37120 M/s)
- DRK DarkCoin X11  ( 5632 *   2.5 -> 14080 M/s)
- SIC Sifcoin       ( 3072 *   4.5 -> 13824 M/s)
- Q2C Qubit         ( 2560 *   5   -> 12800 M/s)
- QRK Quark         ( 4608 *   2.1 ->  9677 M/s)
- ANI AnimeCoin     ( 4608 *   1.8 ->  8294 M/s)
- MYR MyriadCoin    (  768 *  10   ->  7680 M/s)
- GRS GroestlCoin   ( 1024 *   5.5 ->  5632 M/s)

-----

Acording to this raw comperation X11's performance is on the better half compared to the other algos in tose miner.
Of course this doesn't really takes the differences between each Hash algo into account and the size it takes on the GPU

So it is a raw comperation but an interesting one since all those Algos are build out of the very same Hash Moduls in the miner and used the very same way.

Now it can be that all the Hash Moduls are not very efficient and a comperation with other miners that have the same has moduls but implemented in a different way would be very interesting!!

Specially interesting is that the sph miner has the keccak hash but no MaxCoin implementation !?

The CudaMiner has a good and fast keccak so it had been very interesting to compare this! I wonder if it's maybe because the
single keccack modul isn't that good implemented in sph-miner?

I don't have much experiences with SPH-miner nore all this Algos with exception of X11. So maybe others can sheed more light on this.

---

Personel I don't really bother the efficiency or non efficiency of X11.

For me the point of X11 is simple (I discovered it a week ago):

I finnaly can get home and don't have to endure 50 degree celsius in my house and a noise that you can't enjoy anything anymore!!
And it uses less power. It's like a dream for one that simple wants to mine a bit. The standard joe if you want so.
And the summer is comming fast.

As long as the majority has the same ..maybe inefficient miner... we all have a big advantage from it!

If one figures out that you can optimize this to get it hot and noisy as scrypt..if thats even possible..I think it's not or not to that degree..which would mean that the standard GPU isn't optimal for those algos..then I guess some like me simple will search for the next cooler "inefficient" algo.

Security and such is secondary since ..well you know... how long do you hold a coin as miner?

Ya man, but I'm not running for it at the current diff.
No way. HIRO - the logo alone does it for me.

Ask yourself why people are mining DRK at a diff of 500+
And why people keep buying it.
Because it's all crap, of course.

These modern coins with some variety in their software are about the only coins with a steady value now.
Just look at it, there is no discussion necessary, at least not for me.
It's so pretty how this is going. On some days I made more money trading DRK and HIRO than mining them.
It was so easy, reminded me of no-brain trades I did when AOL was the next best thing to buy.

The general condition is a total fuckup of anything based on Scrypt.
The sooner you realize it, the better for your wallets.

WAIT - - You're part of the hiro dev team??? WTF that scamming piece of crap coin? Instamined dog shit. Launched at 7am euro time ...tactical so most of europe and US were sleeping? People have checked the block explorer for that coin and it was totally instamined by a few people whilst most had no idea it was even launched. Other devs go to the effort of announcing, password zips.... Hiro scam ninja launches and planned it so most people were sleeping. By the time anyone noticed it a huge amount of blocks raped straight to the devs and friends pocket.

This coin is a shining example of scam.  I bet that other fucking turd slapper or whatever is a Hiro Shill too. I though you were from DRK so was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

HIRO COIN IS A TOTAL SCAM COIN....The only reason i welcome more x11 right now this second without looking further into it is just so hiro coin can burn in hell. It's only selling point is it has x11. It sucks from DRK coin and since it was only the 2nd coin copy DRK it gained some noob traction. Bolstered by 2 of the main team behind THE BIGGEST SCAM OF THE LAST WAVE OF COINS. As soon as the others all go x11 hiro will die instantly... there is no need to support such a scam. Most noobs mining it have no idea how they were pre-raped before they even found out about it.

Now i see why you are so hostile in this thread. I'm seeing this coin has all the ingredients of a SUPER SCAM.... it has the perfect scam team.

If you are connected with that coin you are obviously a total scammer. GTFO this thread. If i'd known you were a HIRO Scam shill i would have freaked out on you earlier scum bag.

Let's not derail this thread with coin pumping and certainly keep that HIRO SCAM coin away from here. FFS anyone crazy enough to mine that now has no clue who is behind it ... look at the main pumpers for that coin and check their history. I will out that entire bunch of assholes soon if they keep infesting this board with their hiro spam. Keep you scam to your own scam thread don't spam the main section with it constantly. Most people here have no idea the scams some of those have been involved with before and talked their way out of it .... now you would think they would learn about getting involved with scams...but there they both are again pushing a blatant scam coin.

No, I'm the head of the flipme dev team.
And I'm involved into software you never ever knew existed at all.

You are involved with HIROCOIN YES OR NO?

In summay, cryptohunter will not get the answer due to a someone who said he will be quit in this thread still yell out with BS thing in order to disturb people who want to find out the real answer.

Thank you for X11 people, you help a lot with your BS thing. Instead of providing solid evidence to help other people believe in your supporting coin, right now, you make your coin looks skeptical whether is really useful or useless.  

how did you come up with him being part of the Hiro dev team from

*No way. HIRO - the logo alone does it for me.*

For me it's a personal obligation to fight people like you,
who try to dumb down the general public with disinformation and cheap propaganda phrases.

You are at a disadvantage, because the average poster here is already quite informed and has a good perception of being Mickey Moused by agents like you.

Get lost.

blah blah blah.... are you a politician ??? getting a straight answer from you seems almost impossible .... you're a slippery type.

I don't view it as a fight i'm afraid ... i view it as seeking the truth. If you need to fight that then sadly you will always lose in the end.

are you connected to the hiro coin team yes or no?

This is absolutely not true. Most of the people posting here are without any tecnical or economical insight. They are attracted by fancy words and follows the herd bleating what they have read (but not understood) around the forum. Spending their money on obvious scams like earthcoin and darkcoin, coins in general that do extremly well at promoting and branding. 

From Groestlcoin topic:
 

What does Earthcoin matter here now, please enlighten me.
Just a fuck of a crap coin.

Darkcoin is the bleeding edge of crypto currencies though.
Tell me what you mean with your statement.

tell me how darkcoin is a scam and how they are good at promoting?

So far i have this with the current miners we have...


scrypt N   - very asic proof due to cost of hardware required...

qrk -  very efficient in terms of heat and electricity - asic proof for now. - is the efficiency due to miner being poor?

x11 - very efficient in terms of heat and electricity  - asic proof for now. - is the efficiency due to miner being poor?


that seems about the summary so far... that is all we have been able to establish.


security of each i guess can also depend on other factors ie block times....etc. I really don't know much regarding how to attack coins and possible attack vectors. There have been simple yes and no answers but as yet nothing to deep so most of us don't really know.

ASIC implementation of X11 would be a bit simpler and a bit less effective (in terms of performance gain over GPU per mm^2 of die space) than implementation of Quark algorithm.
X11 is rather straightforward, there are some caveats inside hash functions, but for well known hashes it would be just concatenation of published implementations.
For Quark algorithm one can implement 9 hashing stages, 3 of them will be paired - e.g. calculate Keccak and JH in parallel, then discard one of results. Or, to save die space, it's possible to implement 6 hashing cores and some dispatching and routing logic around them.
Anyway, the best ASIC protection is small capitalization of altcoins :)

Blindly chaining hash functions could theoretically lead to increased collision rate.

EDIT:
Exactly. I expect SHA3 GPU miners to be optimized to the same level very soon.

This person has a great understanding of these things, his skills in this area are unquestioned. So i personally would listed to what he is saying on this particular part.  

If he tells me x11 asic implementation is easier that QRK i will take that as the case. Until greater arguement is heard.

So it would seem x11 is less asic resistant that perhaps scryptN and qrk.... the question is were the 11 algos in x11 blindly chained and could they theoretically lead to increased collisions?

yeah sorry we let it sink into this kind of screaming and shouting... however don't leave now. We have just had input from the only person that coded a gpu miner for the first chained algo coin...

also thanks for your input i am reading the outputs you posted for each algo...

Or if you don't wish to stay in this thread, then create your own one probing about x11 . It is important we find out how good x11 really is before we see most coins moving that way.

Hello ;)

We're a bit off-topic but we got something useful out of the conversation lol
That would be a really great idea actually because lets not forget a lot of new people come here and are going to be overwhelmed by so much info.

CPU only coins don't even exist really.. it's a ploy for when they are launched to lure in users and then all of a sudden there is word of gpu miners being worked on
that can stretch out for months and show me a guy out there that woudln't sit on a gpu miner for 3 months privately while everyone else is stuck cpu mining.
see what i am saying ? i REALLY hope so everyone ;) ..AKA: Smelters gpu miner ring a bell guys ????
And you all out there can't say this has not happened and i have suggested this was a very real possibility with x11 coins and any coin really.
and i have been screamed at in response when all i have ever done since day one is use my skills and experience to point out
how a dev can use a variety of angles to his advantage.. ARE they using the advantage ? that is a whole other question to get into.
All that blah blah blah is deadly obvious and should go with out saying to each one us except noobs that just got here..
and i said it for them ! ..so don't flame me for warning new guys coming along, i am looking out for ever person in crypto myself included.
Lets just keep things honest and on the table. I can take some scammy bs if its up front but i can't tolerate scammy weazles lying and playing deceptive games.

and one guy said earlier SHA256 is 100% optimized and then he said Scypt was not.. pure bullshit..
if there was some major optimization that could be done to scrypt it would been done already so don't feed me that bs to push an angle lol
i know i looked into it specifically actually and aside from some hashing checking optimization which did little i didn't see anything major..

Now X11 on the other hand is something we should be asking questions about.. i have not looked at the source yet but someone said earlier
the difference between x11 and Quark was some RANDOM rounds of hashing using multiple algos.. THAT was *if true a valuable contribution to this topic.
When he said that my ears perked up and i thought ok now we're getting somewhere lol
Let me return with a quick comment on that to perk your ears up now.. try this on for size lol

I made a miner prob 6 months ago that was based off another guys miner that he i found in the source code he had experimented with actually
REMOVING one of the hashing algo's completely (but it gave that guy like 60% invalid shares)
I did this and other various mods and i even coded some super small algos to improve efficiency on the hashing checking too
Simply removing the algo i think produces a LOT invalid shares BUT all i did was add a code check on hash validation that fixed that.
And what that did was show my miner hashing twice as fast but i am not sure it actually made any difference wise with coin earnings (not double at least anyway)
I see it as a an efficiency issue though.. one of many i made / looked into etc
So what does that teach us guys ? What does it tell you if i can delete one of the hashing algos competently from the miner ?
AND STILL submit 100% valid shares at any difficulty !

Anyway i want the same answers as OP does and i have *some insight to this stuff because i have worked on miners for ages (lots of quark miner mods)

I also think OP should self mod the topic next time maybe lol

Lastly i have always shared any coding efficiency experiments etc i have made.. my source is always available and if anyone wants to see.. i have never had anything to hide.

Can you comment:

With sufficient funding, how long would it take to roll out usable ASICs based on a multi algo concept?

Do you think you can hold up to AMD and nVidia? They are not gonna miss that boat for very much longer.
Not only for crypto hashing, but for any kind of a custom instruction set for scientific applications.
They are not sleeping on trees.

Would a well meant ASIC be able to keep up with a 3000 stream GPU doing a custom program?
The noise of my GPU cards just said: NO!

Thank you for kind words, but just for record - I worked with very talented hardware engineers, learned a lot in the process, but newer did any HW project myself. Anything I wrote here is just an educated guess.
X11 is a bit simpler to implement in silicon, but I expect that seasoned engineer will not notice the difference. On the other hand, Quark will require less FPGA chips if someone will go crazy route with interconnected FPGA implementation :)
Regarding chaining - that's very theoretical speculation, even if there is 2^32 preimages for every hash value in Scrypt (or X11, or X1000), I know no way to exploit it...

Believe or not, I didn't mine on my GPU this year and only typed 2 (two) characters of crypto-related code. The core of Smelter - optimized groestl implementation - is published in sph thread. The other possible way of speeding up Quark (not implemented in Smelter) is finally made public by cbuchner1. So I expect sph-miner to become soon almost ideal Quark miner, without much room for optimization. And X11 contains 5 more hash functions to play with ;)

There still is a possibility to speedup Scrypt on GPU (as used in Litecoin and implemented in cgminer, there are too many scrypts today :)) - something like 20%, may be 50% with some luck. No one noticed misplaced 'if' operator ;)

no offense smolen was just stating the facts.. you did what you did before ;)
and it wasn't that big of a deal to me or i would have flamed you instead of popping by your topic before to say hi all friendly like lol
and i had no idea about your newer developments you said now so thanks for that info.
more *honest info ? great !!
so smolen sorry if it sounded like i was coming after you.. we need people who can code in this scene  :-*

My god, all you senior and hero all day posters, you just sound so fucked up in this thread, it's unbelievable.
Do you really consider somebody with a brain between their ears is going to fall for your twitter?

I know people who work with VHDL, but nothing about ASIC manufacturing prices :) Numbers out of thin air for FPGA route  - I'd expect 300 MH/s X11 algo board with 6 Spartan 6 LX150 chips to be developed in half of year with 50000 USD development cost, production price would be something like 2000 USD per board. (Anyone with actual field knowledge is welcome to correct me!)

Err... Implementing bit matrix rotation instruction would give AMD a huge advantage in crypto world... and possibly an export ban :) And for most scientific calculation NVidia is already the best choice.

No offense noticed :)

Just want to pop this sentence up.
Was this ironic or do you have the holy grail of scrypt?  :o

Misplaced 'if' in lookup gap mode ;) Not exactly sure how much it could be optimized

#if (LOOKUP_GAP == 1)
#elif (LOOKUP_GAP == 2)
    if (j&1)
        salsa(V);
#else
    uint val = j%LOOKUP_GAP;
    for (uint z=0; z<val; ++z)
        salsa(V);
#endif

#pragma unroll
    for(uint z=0; z<zSIZE; ++z)
        X[z] ^= V[z];
    salsa(X);

they sound fucked up to you sadly because it turns out you and your fantasies of child abuse are not the norm. Now i know that has sent you reeling back into your chair stunned by this revelation ???... but don't panic. These feelings of alienation and self loathing you're experiencing are part of the natural healing process . A lot of things probably seem fucked up to you don't they.. however the world will start making a lot more sense once you're strapped down in that pit with like minded sexual deviants.

Also since you are unable to answer a simple question with a straight answer and when you have answered you seem to either lie or spread more misinformation... it's seems more informed persons than yourself don't agree that x11 is more asic resistant than quark at all, and now it seems throwing more algos together could actually have negative effects i must update the OP with this in bold so more people get to read the truth before they are disturbed into leaving by your unnatural desires.

However, we can't let your unfortunate illness get in the way of our simple quest. We will continue to examine x11.  So far to be honest it has looked a little disappointing .... i was hoping for much better.

The sole proponent flipmeoff(whilstithinkaboutkids) is doing a good job of destroying x11.  Although come on ... we can't really take the crazy sexually charged rantings of this depraved pervert into the equation. It would be unfair of us to allow him to speak up for x11.  

There will probably be someone without serious mental illness come along at some point and sell to us x11 in it's full glory.

So anyway we go a step further... it looks like quark could resist asics a little longer than x11....  will update it all in the OP as we go.

Seriously, cryptohunter, what are you trying to accomplish in this thread? Do you want a technical discussion, or more drama?

exactly.... losing interest in this thread now....

both of you two have been x11 pro from the start... of course you are starting to lose interest in x11 this is understandable

the facts are becoming clear already.


x11 is no more efficient than quark

x11 is no more asic resistant and probably less resistant to asics than quark and scryptN

x11 is quite possibly less secure

x11 is looking like marketing hype plain and simple. If you lost interest now at least you can leave with a greater insight into x11 and help by stopping people parroting the new x11 religion across the board. It simply is not as great as some would have you believe.

It is quite possible that all these coins about to fork to x11 could all be forking back to scryptN or QRK in the near future.

Scrypt N is the least asic resistant of the bunch, considering there are upcoming scrypt asics that have already announced N support.  It's just scrypt with a higher memory req. 

Don't post in this thread if your answer is not in agreement with the opinion of the OP. The question in the title is purely rhetorical

 ;D

really? this is interesting... a new turn of events it seems. Have a link?  wouldn't the level of N determine just how much higher the memory requirement needs to be? Perhaps it's true though..... where is the link and who is the company... if knc were saying it then i guess we could take that at face value. I guess if they can produce asics for high N factor algos then that's another anti asic avenue closed down.

Anyway post the link so we can have a look... thanks.

ERR i'm sorry but i don't get what you are getting at?  post something that backs up your statement.

Although it has to be said you made your x11 fan boy feelings known from the start.

Have i posted something regarding x11 that makes you feel i have not listened and posted fair summary of what has been said here?

If so quote them in your next post so that i may get some clue of what you are hinting at.

http://blissdevices.com

It's debatable if the company is legit and going to deliver but I've heard some other asic companies are thinking about doing the same thing.


http://www.reddit.com/r/scryptmining/comments/20x6r0/bliss_devices_announces_new_prices_on_scrypt/cg8xcd6

thanks for posting... seems alarming that asics have gone from no way going to mine scrypt to now possibly scrypt N..... so we are saying memory hard is not out of the question based on hardware costs now.

I am not saying it is true or not true... but worrying to see them claiming they have done it already.  So if memory intensive is not the way to go... what is left to halt asics?  multi algos but needing to add more and more of them to stay ahead?

Seems gpu miners perhaps don't have as long left in the game as we hoped.  Unless amd decides it likes having bumper sales and tags on some asic features to the cards.

Here we go "X11 pro" "X11 fan boy" etc. You seemed partial from the start. Your emphasis on the word "bullshit" in the title, the way you answer to people defending X11. This is not a discussion, this is a statement.

Well the title can be altered if it offends you so much.... however be honest for a moment... from what we have come up with so far on this thread do you really think the x11 hype is a bit over cooked??

I mean come on every community is screaming for x11 as if it is a saviour to all of our problems... i hear it is super efficient way more so than anything out there, i hear it is asic PROOF, i hear that it is far more secure against attacks.... these things are looking like bullshit or at the very least blown out of proportion. That is without the fact there could be away to optimise the x11 miner beyond what most people are using.

x11 maybe a better in some ways than some other algos but i do not think it is as good as people are pumping it up to be.

If it really is then i would have gone all out for it to be implemented in on the coins that i contribute hash or time too. In fact i was the first to suggest moving to x11 in some communities. Only when talking to developers have i heard some dislike of it which shocked me since i thought it was apparently the best thing since sliced bread.  Now after hearing a few rumours i simply came here to ask is it all bullshit or is it worth forking a coin over to and having all of that hassle, because if we are doing all this for nothing and we have to fork again to ScryptN or QRK in a few weeks that will be a major waste of money for small communities and a lot of time wasted.

Nobody said ASIC proof but resistant, hardware implementation of X11 is possible but more difficult.
The source of the GPU miner is available, those who argue that it is not optimized enough must have (I hope) some programming notions, therefore they are welcome to point out the flaws and correct them.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=475795.0

Ok sure i hear you, but of course not everyone can code a miner that is more efficient than the standard one. Let me ask you this... is it very unlikely or near impossible that someone has coded a more efficient miner? are you ruling out the possibility?

Also what do you say to the summary so far that seems to indicate QRK is as good if not superior to x11 ?  do you disagree with this? do you feel they are too similar to say which is better at this time?

 do you agree their could be weaknesses with having too many algos? is there advantage to QRK's being random over x11 sequential. What are you opinions on this?

I personally though scryptN was more asic resistant than both, however if there really is an asic for scryptN already that is kind of causing me to rethink on that.

X11 is not asic resistance, it's pure marketing hype, but the economic incentive to build ASICs for X11 or other algos (except sha256 & scrypt) doesn't exist, so if the price and the market stay low, there will be never asic.

I agree this could be very true... however if all coins start to switch to x11... i think they may be motivated to start with x11 asics. What about the 1.8GH and 1.2GH miners on the x11 pools?  do you think it was just a giant gpu farm? let's hope there is not already x11 asics since now someone posted a link to scryptN asics coming out... it seems there would be nowhere left for gpu miners if all these collapse to asic pressure.

you should tell your roaring gpu's to google search what "FPGA" means ;)

edit:
@rumlazy i have been saying that too for a while and trying to see what people say.
and one guy on another site insisted it's not as simple as that actually.
i can't remember the tech details he posted but he explained that it would not be enough to tack on more memory to asics
because of how the asics work AND how they access and use memory i think.
I had originally said well memory is cheap so seems like an easy issue right ? add more memory then scrypt-n is now asic minable.
but he was rather convincing and sure as hell knew in remarkable detail how asics work under the hood specifically in ways i barely understand.
And the guy said no.. that won't be enough, simply adding more ram.
Either way i don't know but that guy was very convincing with his knowledge of how asics work.

i also am not sure tacking on memory still make it possible to jump from mining scrypt-n to normal scrypt either.
someone from the scrypt-n dev team(s) should address this stuff not me lol
i had thought the same but now i am not so convinced..

I mention earthcoin because everyone can see that earthcoin are a scam now, and the same will be true for darkcoin in a few months. Erthcoin is similar to darkcoin, not technically, but from a community perspective. Both coins rallied the sheeps with a grand plan and fancy words.

Darkcoin claimes to be the first anonymous coin. That is not true and it will not happen. Darkcoin promote itself as a zero premined coin. That is true, but it is designed to be extremly instamined and if you look at the block explorer you will see that the instamine is around 14% of the total coins. More then 75% of the exicting coins is instamined by devs/early adopters. There have also been alot of posts about the x11 and "cool cards" that adds to the hype. Darksend, x11, dgw, zero premine, everything the community preach and believe to be facts are actually not as good as they seem or completely true.

Can you tell me why and how it won't happen? Please try to limit the discussion to just that, and lets remove ourselves from other things like the hashing function, amount of coins in circulation, distribution of coins in circulation, difficulty retargeting and mining capability.

Sorry but i am not competent to answer that. But I am confident enough to make that statement because I have read a lot of responses from and discussions between very competent members on this forum, and the concensus is that coinjoin is not, and will not be anonymous enough no matter what changes darksend might have.

Just to make it clear, I don't have any self interest when it comes to darkcoin, and if people want to invest they should do that based on their own judgment and not mine. I have previously warned about numerous scams and this is just one in the line. I dont hold any alt coins now. If i am wrong that would be very good for the community and specially the people buying in now.

I understand. I myself am not aware of the full ins and outs of the anonymity level behind CoinJoin, so it seems we're on the same level with that respect . . in that we're both repeating what we've heard or read for the most part.

On the other hand, I am very willing to keep myself very open to the possibility that even intelligent people are suspect to some form of bias, misunderstanding or lack of immersion.

Actually it was that same openness that led me toward reading up on CoinJoin so that I might find differences in how it was applied in DarkSend.

My initial wording was designed to see if you think anonymity in general is a wasted effort, or if you think the attempt at it in DarkSend was flawed.

Anyways, the label "CoinJoin", to me, just refers to any process that relies on mixing transactions through a trusted 3rd party in order to obscure the blockchain . . which I think severely limits most of the claims DarkSend makes due to pre-existing consensus . . but the developers want to give credit to them so it's mentioned anyways. It's their choice to give credit for original ideas.

The general consensus I've seen so far about DarkSend is that it's not 100% anonymous . . and the developers have been very transparent about that fact. Does this mean that it's useless to me? Absolutely not . . and I will try to provide details.

The major part where DarkSend differs is that it offers anonymity based on the cost that someone is willing to pay to remove it.

Every step in the original CoinJoin process now has a potential penalty that will be imposed for improper behavior by the anonymous, trustless third party doing the mixing. The third party is elected pseudo-randomly based on previous block data (We can assume this to be completely random pending someone being able to predict the outcome of the x11 algorithm).

What this means is that by electing a mixing node based on previous block data . . the chance that you are aware you are a mixing node is drastically reduced with every additional node on the network. In this sense, you are acquiring anonymity and removing the requirement to trust based on chance. This, along with penalties, serves very well in that you are effectively minimizing loss by theft of the master node. There are many more details and you are welcome to dig through them when the white paper is updated (unless you want to dig through the thread), or I can try to find them for you.

Now onto the anonymity part . . which still has some issues but is a damn good attempt and only getting better. By increasing the number of stages of mixing to ten, coupled with ip obfuscation granted by TOR . . higher and higher levels of anonymity are being achieved. What this means is that if I, being a business in this example, were to start conducting transactions with DarkSend . . then none of my competitors will be able to discover my wallet address, or my suppliers, or customers.

I can agree that the refinement is far off from business money entering the picture . . but it's a sure start in the right direction.

I guess what I'm getting at is that right now . . this is one of the best visible attempts at anonymity and taking all of this to the next level that I see. To not offer privacy limits the market caps to a small consumer base, one man shops and investors. The former two are not particularly concentrated sources of value to play on for investors.

This isn't an all or nothing attempt . . and it just can't be as simple as that. Privacy and anonymity can only be provided in stages until (or if at all) something better comes along. What I can say for certain is that if it can be achieved to an acceptable point . . then the other details will hardly matter.

https://eagersheep.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/fud2.jpg



THIS THREAD IS FULL OF IT!!!

X11 is da bomb mate, cards are running 1/3th cooler then scrypt, half the electricity is used...
And for the abuse were suddenly extreme high hashrates pooped up, this is hust because of a stratum abuse where fake shares are being submitted, nothing to do with X11

Anyone else confirm this? 14% instamine.... what time frame did that take from announcement? so now both coins currently using x11 look like instamine scams? If this is actually true then why are people not screaming this all over the forums? we can't let stuff like that just be brushed under the carpet. I tried to blast earthcoin down a few times for their huge premine .... these coin get a ton of noobs behind them by dishing out some crumbs and become very hard to stop.


Still we're on page 10 and really there is no hard evidence it would seem to suggest x11 provides us with anything beneficial above qrk.  Therefore the frenzy over it is largely based upon marketing hype..

However it has turned up a few new things i didn't know about.... possible scryptN asic ( although not confirmed and i have not heard of that company before) and that drk coin had a 14% instamine?...although again i have not checked the block explorer to see what time frame of instamine we are talking about.  I really call instamine the first few mins if announced ahead of time and has kgw with harsh retarget from the start, or if unannounced the first hour or two again depending on retarget. If it is unannounced and launched at at time when both the US and europe are mostly offline then you can be sure that was a planned deliberate instamine scam like hirocoin.  

Not looking great for x11 then... offers nothing new in terms of real world benefits , and both coins using it thus far were instamined scams?  is this a fair assessment? wow ....if that is true it's time for some additional threads here. However only if it is the truth....sure there will be a lot of haters but really you can't allow scams to go unpunished can you?

Anyone else care to do some solid detective work on this before we unleash some bombs?  The developer seems to be hardworking and even fessed up his real name and introduced some new things to crytpo even if they are marketed above their true capability. However 14% instamine? that is gross if it is true. Hiro scam did the same except worse.. i can't remember how dark coin even launched... was it announced ahead of time ....surely it was not another ninja release planned at 7am euro time so max miners were sleeping?

We won't derail this thread into one on scam coins but really that is terrible. Most people kick up a fuss over 1% premine ...14% to devs and pals let in early on it can't be allowed to happen.

Really thought by now one would have thought with everyone screaming x11 is the one you would have had some techno boffins in here explaining exactly why it is so much better than the algos we have previous to it. A bit shocked it has had no real technical support here at all.

wow thank god you turned up.... i didn't remember dark coin only launched without a windows QT - - that has slipped my mind. I mean so many coins were being spammed out each day. Please go and research for me on other scam coins that launch to a 90% windows user base without a windows QT

I take you're another dark coin hater..... you guys are really forcing me to remove my positive remarks about drk coin in the OP.

I mean i wanted to give drk the benefit of the doubt but since you all keep bringing me more and more anti dark coin facts it seems i have to be more truthful.

Again whilst you're here be sure to absorb the info we have so far.... Let me give you the cliff notes.

x11 is marketing bullshit with no real proven substance......it is certainly not superior and seems actually inferior to what we already had.

Both coins using it are being strongly accused of being instamined scams :)

Then the best part is this..... you post a quote from me trying to help the guy who tipped me aurora coin would sky rocket from 3 to 90 bucks.... sure i didn't invest because the idea seems like nonsense so yes i missed that train :) however you are posting a quote from me sticking up for him when other people were saying he is full of shit. LOL so there was no bitterness at all and i put a smiley face....HHEHE you are my  new best pal on this board friend. Showing what a nice guy i am even when i miss out on a rocket like aurora. You are actually proving there the opposite of what you intend. If you read the OP i had put something quite positive about drk coin too until now you reminded me it started off with no windows QT like maxcoin and now i see it was 14% instamined whilst no windows people had access to mine.....HAHA you are awesome.



See you later, come back again soon. thanks for your assistance though ...

Hey eightspaces thanks for showing up and adding weight to this thread. It's nice to see people using size 70 font when they get desperate :)




Hehe we are getting to these people ..... the game is almost up scammers. :)

You can't argue with facts that is the scary part for you guys...

Sorry but you have to be more clear expressing what it is you want.... i can't even understand your capslock spasm you just experienced. WTF are you talking about?

We are inviting people here to talk about the merits of x11 above and beyond what we had before it. As yet there seem to be none.

Now along the way people have popped into to mention some additional facts.


1. dark coin was designed in a great way to enable instamining.

2. dark coin was launched without a windows qt  to stop competition from others so the instamine went more smoothly and was guaranteed success.

3. that the instamine seemingly went as planned..

a figure of 14% was mentioned .... i encourage others to look into that figure since i have not had time to do so....you know i've almost completed Streetfigher 4 on the hardest setting today and not taken more than 10% damage in any round. It's a fantastic game i would full recommend it to anyone. Yeah so once i finish this round i'll get cracking on the re-post you want....

Just to be clear before i get started....

Are you asking me to repost these facts in a new thread with a more appropriate title?  is that what you are asking me?...Ok sure i'll get right on it for you. Sorry to keep you waiting you seem to be getting impatient there my friend.

we're saying to take the fight straight to the dev in the Dark ann, you can expose the scam like you did to Hiro. Remember how you made the price of Hiro go to the floor?

Wow the spokesman here for everybody, that's nice to meet such an important person. We this we that... must be nice to have the backing of the full board.

Hehe i like you, you're a spirited one. You just need to channel your energy into something more worth while.

Here i tell you what.... just for fun answer some of my bullshit questions and show me to be the crazy damaged mad man i am.


1. is it more efficient than qrk?
2. is it more secure than qrk?
3. is it more efficient than scrypt? or is the miner just crippled and can't use the full potential of the card?
4. are there more efficient miners already out for x11 that are more optimised?
5. is it more asic resistant that qrk?
6. is it more asic resistant that scyptN , scrypt jane
7. is it x12, x13, x99 going to be better? will we need to fork all of the coins over and over again?


 


Now since i see you're a dark coin fan.... i will rely on your expert opinion....as this thread seems to be taking an unwanted drk coin direction which was not at all my intention as i clearly stated in the OP.

1. was dark coin by design originally open to a massive instamine?
2. Was dark coin released without a windows QT?
3. Was dark coin instamined?


sorry about spouting boring bullshit over and over again... but you can clear this up rather quickly right now..... YES YOU EIGHTSPACES  you can answer all of these bullshit boring questions right now and save the board whom you speak for any more focus on these bullshit meaningless questions.

Where is the dark coin dev?? i am awating his arrival? i don't want to sully his thread with pointed questions about x11. I'm sure he would prefer to come here and discuss right?

I mean it makes no sense for me to go there and invite a huge discussion about x11, what about all the noobs that never leave that drk coin thread?? why cast doubt into their minds regarding the substance of x11, and now this thread has turned against my will into and exposing of the instamine with drk coin that i was unaware of and now the helpful hint regarding it's lack of a windows qt at the start of the instamine??

He really wants all of that in his thread? really i think he would prefer to come here and clear these things up in person?

Are you dening HIRO SCAM COIN WAS AN PLANNED INSTAMINED SCAM COIN???  if so please post evidence that it was not a planned and perfect excuted scam. Also the 2 largest supporters of this coin we the 2 largest supporters of the biggest scam coin from the last wave.

I'm sorry but just because you can not take down to the ground a coin single handedly does not mean it was not a scam.  I can only try and highlight deliberate scams.

Of course we are to expect a lot of bluster and hatred from the supporters of these coins. However sadly for them they can not escape the facts.

This thread was initially about x11 no mention of hiro scam until others brought it up and then i only put the positive comment about drkcoin there because i didn't want the drkcoin fans crying in here either.

However you shills from hiro and drk keep forcing it to be a thread about the scammy instamined starts of your coins? are you proud of these facts or something?

the Hiro dev bought his own coins from me, I dont know why a dev would do that if he massively instamined it.

Each of the 11 hashes adds overhead to the calculation which will cause a higher orphan rate.

come now don't be silly about this... i don't want to go through the steps one by one showing without DOUBT that coins was a planned instamine scam.

This thread is about x11's merits. I will create another thread debating hirocoins scam if you want ....so we can discuss it there.

However this thread is just to discuss x11 not drk coin or hirocoin. I am asking about x11 the chained algo that is it. This is far more important to me right now because i do not want to fork coins i am invested in over to that if there is no clear advantage and have to fork again to another algo straight after.

thanks, so yet another unfavourable but factual point here.

This is what we need to know... just plain and simple facts regarding x11 before every single coin decides to fork over to this we need to examine it and weigh up the pros and cons of each alternative algo or algo chain.

A scam is a scam. No matter the amount of argument that will never change. I hadn't really notice dark coin has a start like that and have even mentioned probably a wise investment on many occasions in threads.

I am sorry to learn it's origins are so tainted.  However for now i don't wish to focus on drkcoin or anycoin. I think it is very important for the entire community to know all the FACTS about x11 before every single coin adopts that algo. I was even pushing hard for x11 in the communities i take part in.  However now it really does not look like the wise choice. If the dev comes in here and describes in detail why it is superior then great let's all hurry and get swapped over to it.

But come on be honest... most of the tech people in here whether they be coin designers, coders that have built miners, people that run lots of pools, ..... i am hearing NOTHING to suggest this is the best solution at all.

I am not telling you anything. I am asking the question SHOULD ALL COINS BE MOVING TO X11 RIGHT NOW OR BE RESEARCHING IT A LITTLE MORE BEFORE WE START FORKING EVERY SINGE COIN OVER TO THIS ALGO CHAIN.

This in not an investment thread nor one really to discuss any coin individually. I have responded to people bring up specific coins but the discussion was intended to be about x11 only and its merits to warrant hard forking all scrypt coins over to it. Hell there was even talk of some forced x11 switch on LTC. I don't want my crypto wealth all pushed over to some as yet untested mishmash of algos without some deeper investigation into it. How hard is this for people to grasp?? are you saying we should blindly move every single scrypt coin to x11 just because it sounds fancy?

Tell me some merits of x11 so i can get back to pushing for the scrypt coins i like to be moved to it at once.

If not x11, if not qrk, if not scrytn, perhaps myriads idea? scrypt jane who knows...

I can't believe as yet though we have not had ONE clear advantage of x11 over all previous algos and yet everyone is screaming for their coin to go x11??

I see nothing but people giving possible disadvantages... i am not a coder we need those that are smarter than 99% of us on this board to assist with making decisions. The communities are calling out for x11 but really they do not know why they are?

come on really you have not seen the litecoin x11 thread?

start looking through  scryptcoin threads.... you will see people asking for x11 conversion.

People are looking for the best options to avoid asics......... they are running to x11 but should they be running in different direction. That is the question.

stick x11 in the search box in the ann section.... tons of coins now coming with x11 also.... it is the new fad based upon nothing it seems.

Replied from Darkcoin dev.

Cryptohunter, let's cut the bullshit and please just tell us which coin you own and that you would advise others to buy so that you can enjoy your pump. The "this algo stinks", "this coin is a scam" etc are just the ritual for getting there. So let's just get to the end and bypass the ritual...

Tell us:

What coins do you own?
What do you advise others to buy (directly, not descriptively so that we can "figure it out")?

Thanks very much, yes i am in the same position as yourself buying and mining away on all sort of coins. Nobody really knows which will have the most positive returns or stand above the others, perhaps none will and btc will remain at the top.

Let's await anyway as yet perhaps some technically minded people will come soon and seriously do a strict comparison of all the algos both their pro's and cons backed by hard evidence and we will know if it is good idea to put all our eggs in the x11 basket.

So long as persons only post the truth and things they can back up then i see no reason for this discussion to veer of into a train wreck... let's not discuss coins because it is hard for some not to become upset if they feel their investment is under threat. I own not a lot of lots and lots of coins so really it makes little difference to me one coin seems to go down another goes up then back the other way, actually my exchange balances only move only a tiny bit up and down each day since it is spread so thinly over so many coins. Not a great investment plan i guess since never going to make a lot of gains that way.

Well i own about 100 coins... so difficult for me to pump them all at once... i have mined nearly every single coin on launch and for some reason neglect to sell them.

Don't try to derail this thread. It is not to focus on a single coin.

X11 - does it have any clear advantages over what we had before or not... so far NOT.

It is simple no need to try and muddy the waters with pumps dumps, fair not fair. I have responded to those discussions only. This thread is for x11 only the algo chain itself...not an individual coin.

I'm sure you can check my post history to see which coins i have previous recommended ... or which i see as good safe bets. Besides my opinion is my opinion only what does that matter regarding investing ...

LOL the funniest part is drk coin was on my list of reasonable investments i would usually quote....go back and check for yourself.

There is no reason quite a few coins can not exist together. Sure may not all of the 100 coins i own are going to make it big but as long as they were fair or i didn't notice they were unfair i for the most part have just kept everything... bit of a hoarder like that.

Anyway i'm not here to discuss coin investments, i am here to examine x11. That is it.

I think Cryptohunter is doing a good job trying to shine some light on what's true, what's overhyped or underhyped before himself and others risk money on it. As you see his has to ask the questions over and over which some just ignore.

thanks yes exactly....

many people have worked hard buying and mining scrypt coins for months on end....whilst i appreciate x11 could prevent asics and add some security advantages let's be 100% sure that it is the best option before pushing all coins that way.  I get worried when i see LTC and doge discussions about x11... the new wave of coins coming out with x11 isn't as bad since you know what you are getting into when you mine it , but changing algos is different.

I can't yet from this thread see how x11 became so popular? i mean not 1 certain advantage over all algos we had already? it is pure marketing so far then?? this is crazy... what are people thinking about asking to move ltc and doge to this algo when they can't provide any reason for choosing it. Seems insane.

You already have your mind made up and you pretend to ask in order to be informed so that you can end up repeating your own pre-formed conclusions.



1) Less energy for GPU = happy miners
2) More secure as it doesn't rely on the integrity of a single hash. It does not have a single point of failure approach, so to speak. Otherwise quark itself, as you point out in your questions, is useless - we could all be happy with 1 hash.
3) Coins with >1 hashes are diversification tool against the risks that single-hash coins have. Whether 2 hashes or 10 hashes, it's open to individual preference.
4) CPU friendliness as the rate of acceleration is not tremendous compared to GPUs (so far). From what I see in the miner, it uses the standard crypto libraries which should be pretty efficient by themselves - as they also include a number of built in optimizations.
5) Cheaper ASICs than scrypt-type coins when the algo goes to ASIC stage (all gpu mineable hashes will get to this point if the coins are profitable), due to requiring less RAM. Cheaper ASICs = more decentralization possible.

Now, if you are a crybaby, you can always take something and spin it any way you want. For example enhanced security could be called a problem because it creates lag. Yeah I mean that's why people don't use 1 letter passwords. Sure they could login faster if they used them, but their security would be at risk. And if Bitcoin used a lesser hashtype, it would be faster but less safe. So what?

Likewise about the cpu / gpu friendliness, one can say "great this is closer to the bitcoin ideal" and another one can say "this is a botnet coin". The same is true for the GPU energy... one says "oh that's great" another one whines about the optimization level.


Yes, I'm sure you are. People in here started saying all kind of crap about "hype" and stuff, when there's been so little promotion about it. It's just that miners started finding out about the reduced power consumption in a period where scrypt profitability is borderline pathetic when contrasted with elevated electricity costs. That's all. And probably because of that, it will be adopted by another 10-20-30 coins. Who cares? Is it the best hashing algorithm that man ever invented? No. Is it ASIC proof - in that ASICs will never be developed for it? No. Is it the fastest in its verification? No. Is it fully optimized? No, since its new. Will there be other coins that branch from X11 into X12 or reverse sequence of the hashes? Yes. It actually happened since day one (chaincoin taking X11 and reversing the order of two hashes). So? Will you be here examining X12, X13 and X33 also?

And finally: Is it better than scrypt or sha256? It depends on how you define better and what your priorities are. There is no definite answer, since we do not live in a black and white world. And that also answers if it is better than Quark.

Firstly let's get to the MOST IMPORTANT PART of your post.Right at the end

1. is it better than the QRK algo =  NO you can not say that it is.

how do you answer more algos = more orphans?


Ok thanks that settled it.

Now then yes a lot of the other things you have brought up are interesting and true even....but essentially do not answer any of the questions we really need to know.

1. is it more efficient than qrk?
2. is it more secure than qrk?
3. is it more efficient than scrypt? or is the miner just crippled and can't use the full potential of the card?
4. are there more efficient miners already out for x11 that are more optimised?
5. is it more asic resistant that qrk?
6. is it more asic resistant that scyptN , scrypt jane
7. is it x12, x13, x99 going to be better? will we need to fork all of the coins over and over again?


also i would really like to engage more conversation about myriad and heavycoin.... any fans of those methods want to voice some positive things above the methods we had before.

Is myriad easy to add to i mean can they add more in without forking?
why are people not so keen on this method?

please stop preaching the security of a chained algo. chained algos are only as strong as their weakest link so if one of the algost piled on top of eachother in x11 breaks the whole chain breaks.

DRK has like 2.5m block and QRK has, what? 30 secs? And your problem is the hash type? Seriously?  ::)


"We"? LOL. Yes, I'm sure there's a crowd out there waiting to hear that x11 can split the Nile water in two.

So Quark is 6 times more vulnerable than, say, Bitcoin?

Well yes if that is true it is true...but then x11 is 11 times more vulnerable. :)

Stop side tracking to coins specifically.

the block time of dark being longer gives longer attack time or not? i don't know?


All you need to do is give one ONE benefit of x11 that clearly goes beyond what no other algo we have had before offers? it really can't get any more simple than that.

State it hear just one simple line of text explaining something about x11 that puts it clearly above all other methods. Then we can analyse it. If true then x11 is the one to go for.

I am not aware of quark's basics but if it has 6 chained algos then yeah ... it is.

how come? I thought it was the opposite, since if you can break say the first algo you still have 10 rounds of hashing to do so it's not a huge speed up anyway

Hi, I'm the developer of Darkcoin. You can go download the beta client right now and send decentralized anonymous transactions. So yeah, it's the first anonymous coin. If everyone used beta, the whole blockchain would be anonymous.

X11 does indeed run 30 degrees colder than scrypt, so I'm not sure what you're complaining about there. DGW reacts faster and more effectively to whales joining because I used exponential moving averages which are just better for this type of thing, again not sure what you're talking about.

See DGW in action here: http://drk.poolhash.org/graph.html

I also fixed the timewarp exploit, so it's the only safe algorithm currently (for difficulty adjustment every block).

The next big thing in Darkcoin land are MasterNodes, you'll hear about people running a specific type of client and making tons of money in exchange for anonymizing transactions of the network (again, the anonymous transactions exist...)

I can run 30 degrees colder doing nothing as well. That's the point. You pay $500 for a 1 Mh/s scrypt GPU and I pay $500 for 1 Mh/s scrypt GPU. I get a miner that gets 33% more of the total hashes than you do so I am getting twice as many hashes (66% / 33% = 2x).

We have the same hardware. We have 2 different miners but I claim the one I gave you is the best when in fact it's not. Not only that, suppose my miner is 15 degrees warmer. That's still 15 degrees cooler and I am getting 2x the performance as you.

Point is, if there's less heat, then your card isn't working as hard as it can. Basic science.

Basic science ? That's a joke right ?
Show us all the flaws of the current GPU miner (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=475795.0) instead of spreading broscience. I'm waiting ...

+1

Lotta people claim theres a better miner, no one actually provides proof though.

Actually I have a "better miner" but only a couple percent more and as far as my own card (series 58xx) is concerned. Thing is, I don't know if its better for everyone.

I gave replication instructions earlier, don't know if anyone tried it though:

on sph-sgminer, /kernel/darkcoin.cl, between line 263 and 264 you add #pragma unroll 1

=>


...you then recompile the program, del all .bin files and rerun the program. Report the hashrate and your card.

You can also try this a bit higher (between line 243 and 244) where it says:


and do it like this:


...but try them one by one, not together and see what happens. Always recompile the app + del the .bins.

This is actually "de-optimizing" as unrolled loops are usually faster, but it just so happens to run faster for me, for whatever reason. #pragma unroll 1 declares no loop unrolling (theoretically slower, faster in practice). I'm curious on what it does for others.

thats the whole point of this thread... majority of ppl are not computer programmers and can't prove it... we are asking for professionals to speak up and debunk the speculation with facts or prove the speculation with facts. we cant prove it... can YOU prove otherwise? probably not

not looking for answers like 'it runs cooler so it uses less electricity'
 

If you're on the treadmill but you're not sweating I can reasonably guess that you're not on the uphill setting.

It is an interesting characteristic of the cryptocommunity that while most of us are at least power-users with PCs (otherwise even the concept of mining would seem "hard"), few of us are programmers and a very tiny percentage of us are programmers + cryptography experts so that we can understand what is going on in the mechanics of the whole system. The lack of programming talent is serious around this place. I mean even most coin "devs" can't code.

 :o

Some people sweat a lot just by walking, other don't. Does that mean with your logic that the latters are underperforming ?

Glad you've come over.... too be honest with you though your reply was kind of well ....you didn't really reply to the post you quoted, which kind of made it look like you were avoiding what the person wrote. I'm sure you weren't doing that on purpose but still I hope you will take some time to reply to this one if possible -  since it would really be interesting to hear what you have to say on each of the points ...

Okay well let's just ask you flat out to answer these if you will

1. is it more efficient than qrk?

2. is it more secure than qrk?

3. is it more efficient than scrypt? or is the miner just crippled and can't use the full potential of the card?

4. are there more efficient miners already out for x11 that are more optimised?

5. is it more asic resistant that qrk?

6. is it more asic resistant that scyptN , scrypt jane

7. is it x12, x13, x99 going to be better? will we need to fork all of the coins over and over again?

8. does having 11 algos cause high orphan rates





For now that is pretty much all i'm bothered about. Although to be fair to you since it has been stated in this thread that dark coin was instamined to the tune of 14%  ...what do you say to that ?

What do you think now looking back on the fact it was launched with no protection against instamining  and no windows QT?

I think it is only fair to you that you have the opportunity to give your side of those events.

What do you say to critics regarding both of those things. ..i am just interested in your explanation.......I believe developers need some compensation for all of their work but 14% sounds rather large?

Also were you the original dev?  i mean you seem to be a very smart person that can create all of these new features..... and yet not compile a windows qt at launch?  or have you taken over this coin and it was a different dev that released it who was some copy and paster?  was the block retarget every block at launch? was it announced?

To be honest i don't miss many launches but i can't really recall dark coin even coming out, although i think it was originally called something else.


I guess the dev of x11 is the very best person to answer these ....i mean a lot of people including myself have no idea and we just seem to be disagreeing without having any real idea if we are right or wrong.

Be good to know though.

I already said thanks to the person that refreshed my memory on this earlier in the post. Actually i think it was you.  However as i explained, i don't even remember that was dark coin. I am sure this was not called dark coin back then?
I'm sure it was called something else. If it was called dark coin all along then i don't recall it.  To be fair before it was posted in this thread i had no idea i had posted at the start of dark coin.

If i had known it lanched without the windows wallet QT i would have been a lot more critical of it before.

Until that other person mentioned it was an instamined train wreck i didn't realise the start was so bad.

So it seems easy to explain. I am not sure why you are not understanding what i have written.

I have no recollection of drk coins birth, i mean there were tons of coins being released so perhaps i thought to myself i missed it.... but i obviously did not miss drk coins birth it just changed names i'm sure it did anyway.

I can't see the difference it makes anyway , i am on the start of 99% of launches i can't recall every single one. Although drk is a seemingly important coin now it started like all the rest when they were pooring out just another coin. If you check most launches before 2 weeks back you will notice i am on those.  What difference does it make?  how can i remember each and every coin. It changes nothing about the facts i am asking anyway right?

Also a persons credibility means nothing when asking questions in these terms. It only means something when giving answers.

Nobody really has much credibility on a board where 99% of users even login with tor, maybe escrow level users with big history.

The questions i am asking are plain to read... if you see an issue with the questions then that is different. You are free to ask your own if you want to know something different.

Actually i just checked and it was you that brought up already this ??? go check out page 10.... i mean you trying to quote out of context...


1 you quote me on drk coins opening thread saying about no windows qt

2. i reply saying wow thanks i forgot i even posted on that thread since they must have changed names so when i posted how am i to remember it was even darkcoin back then? but even so it is great you reminded me .... if i was super anti drk coin i would have surely brought that up before you came on the thread and mentioned it??  i had no idea they did launch without a windows qt because it wasn't darkcoin then...can't you understand this?


3. you go on to talking about other things...... and never mention that again?

4. hours later you come back and jump back again on that again making it look like you are finding those quotes again for the first time?? are you crazy or have memory issues?


You go away think about this for 6 hours and come back? makes no sense at all. Even what you are asking makes zero sense. I can only imagine you are anti dark coin above and beyond what i am.

Yes now you have brought to my attention it was an instamine scam with no windows wallet a bit like maxcoin i am more anti.... but you must really want to highlight these things? I had not realised it was an instamine hell and had no windows qt before this thread started. I asked about x11.... this thread has displayed that x11 has no advantages , possibly quite a few extra issues, and that dark coin was a turkey shoot for the dev team since it had params ideal for instamining and no windows QT....this is the perfect scam by the looks of it lol.

Can anyone even defend anything about this coins start? then why keep mentioning it. If you like it best to keep quiet about it and focus only on x11's pros and cons...


edit...

IT WAS NOT CALLED DRKCOIN BACK THEN... and if i did remember it launched with no windows qt why would i not have been mentioning this before you came and reminded me? your logic is really strange.

You mean it would damage my credibility ( which is zero really like every other anonymous poster) to forget to mention one of the most damaging facts about a coin that you are trying to accuse me of being anti?
The thread is about x11 ... first the drk shills come out getting mad, then someone mentions the instamine 14% number which sparks my attention, then you come along with the no windows qt information at launch adding fuel to the flames of the instamine.  But because i failed to mention both of those things in my supposed anti drk coin thread it damages my credibility because i was deliberately holding back those damming bits of information??

Really i don't think you have to worry about me blasting you with "logical fallacies".

I can't remember its original name but i can assure you it was not drkcoin.

A gpu should run at the same temp no matter what it's doing, if it's running as efficiently as possible. It seems to me it is science and not something you need a programmer to answer. You could run something that only uses, lets say 70% of the gpu but how could you guarantee someone doesn't figure out how to use the other 30%. You can't be using the whole gpu and not using it at the same time.

Somehow this seems to have been missed by all the ASIC haters^^^^^

This statement from the DRK dev will make me reconsider investing in DRK, which up to this point I have not done. At least he understands what it will take to make DRK a real and usable currency.

X11 algo has a planned transition to ASIC miners.

Yes, but perhaps you also missed the part about the HUGE instamine and no windows QT at launch?  sounds a little worrying.

Also the anti asic crew will probably not like the sound of that and them pulling out support could lead to not such a great investment.

Massive amounts of coins moving to x11 will perhaps make drk less appealing also since 2 out of 250  was good ..... 200-400 is more competition.

I see most coins moving to x11 to avoid asic, looks like it is not the answer for them after all.

Realistically if you have not invested  by now....

However let's forget focusing on drk if the dev wants to come back and answer the questions i asked that would be good, however if he does not want to, let's forget about drk coin and move back to a more technical discussion on the algo chain x11 and not the coins that are implementing it.

Did you notice I stated -

X11 algo has a planned transition to ASIC miners.

Wait, so you can making money from hosting a node? Can anyone do this? Sorta sounds like POS on steroids if you ask me :D

Yes i did thanks... i hope others did too.

although personally i am not anti asic myself or pro asic i guess ...kind of neutral . I only refrain from getting one since roi could be tricky if not first in the queue for one.

asics seem to have positive and negative aspects...although i guess that is a topic for another thread... interesting one really though nobody has really dedicated a thread lately to list in full the pros and cons.

Are you a complete retard. Please take your anti dark coin hints elsewhere..... Ok let's get a summary i will even make a new anti dark coin thread in the next  few mins pointing out the facts you have brought to my attention.

However here is the summary for you once again... Even if i had an agenda it does not matter fool. If you can prove that person to be wrong and twisting facts their agenda means nothing.


Here are the facts that YOU HAVE brought to my attention.

1. Dark coin (called some other name) was launched  and the BLOCK EXPLORER shows a huge amount of blocks being instamined almost INSTANTLY.
2. Dark coin bolstered their instamine by starting WITHOUT AND WINDOWS QT ( THANKS FOR BRINGING THIS TO MY ATTENTION)


Thanks for bringing those things to my attention.... it is the perfectly planned instamine scam then wasn't it.

Forget your pseudo retarded logic and oh i found some inconsistency bullshit -

1. it does not exist
2. if it does exist it does not change these fact you have brought to my attention.


We get it you hate drk coin and want to highlight it is a scam coin. Thanks for that.... Moving back to the x11 though.....


every time you post more drivel ...pointless dumbass crap that means nothing and displays how confused you are i will post the same facts to you that you have brought to my attention and in turn i will bring to everyone elses attention.

Look at the criticism maxcoin has had for a no windows qt launch .... and yet dark seems to have escaped this since it changed its name... everyone probably forgot about its launch since there was no windows qt and even forgot about that instamine scam they all hated....the pops up dark coin under a different name.


Here are the facts that YOU HAVE brought to my attention.

1. Dark coin (called some other name) was launched  and the BLOCK EXPLORER shows a huge amount of blocks being instamined almost INSTANTLY.
2. Dark coin bolstered their instamine by starting WITHOUT AND WINDOWS QT ( THANKS FOR BRINGING THIS TO MY ATTENTION)


If you're to stupid to understand what i put - then let me make it simple for you - I NOW AM TOTALLY ANTI DARK COIN AS I AM ALL SCAM COINS.  IF YOU WANT TO BELIEVE I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ANTI DRK COIN GREAT BELIEVE IT. IT REALLY MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO ME. NOR CAN IT CHANGE THE FACTS YOU PRESENTED TO ME .

I really can't understand the point you are trying to make it is just completely stupid.

will someone report this guy to drk coin, he is seriously damaging this coin :(   please fool  understand these simple things

yes i think dark coin was called something else? err does that help.

while you're still here.... thanks again for presenting these facts to the thread



1. Dark coin (called some other name) was launched  and the BLOCK EXPLORER shows a huge amount of blocks being instamined almost INSTANTLY.
2. Dark coin bolstered their instamine by starting WITHOUT AND WINDOWS QT ( THANKS FOR BRINGING THIS TO MY ATTENTION)

hehe it took you 6 hours to go away and think up some crazy shit like this? you are getting desperate...

hehe - so now you are telling me....


i and the rest of the windows users who do not compile from source ...err 80+% ...let me quote the rest of your sentance.



"weren't allowed to participate in the launch."  


please stop damaging darkcoin like this i am starting to feel bad ...



shall we have some more instamines where windows users weren't allowed to participate in the launch??.


taoway is almost in a frenzy to discredit dark coin.... what did dark coin do to you man??  try and sort it out in person don't drag them through the mud in public like this.


Let us get back on topic to x11.

TAOWAY THE DARKCOIN SLAYER - BRINGING DRK COINS CRIMES TO LIGHT
2nd in command - cryptohunter the new convert to the taoway religion of darkcoin hatred.

Do you mind if i quote you in my darkcoin is an instamined scam coin with a bullshit algo thread?

Lead the way taoway bring us more darkcoin slaying material... you could be the single greatest weapon we have against drkcoins scamming ways.

You've done a great job so far, but what other dirt can you dig up on them, you have a lot of inside knowledge i bet....

 how about that 50x speed x11 miner you told me you have seen.  Remember how i told you about it after you already told me about it just before  i told myself about it and then you told me to tell myself before i didnt tell you to tell myself about it straight before you didnt know about it anymore then remembered it and forgot it existed although wait you already said that before so how could you have told me to forget about it before i knew about it and said about it before it changed its name?

Somebody here has an agenda. ::)
Generally when someone resort to bold letters with an oversized font, run for the hills, he wants to sell you some BS.

Heheheheh

another fool who ignores the elephant in the room ... i made it elephant size and you still can't see it can you LOL

someone who ignores important facts and focuses instead on speculation is certainly hiding something....


although let me make it easier for you.... I NOW HAVE ANOTHER  AGENDA ON TOP OF EXAMINING X11.... let me change the OP a bit to reflect my new agenda.

1. TO HIGHLIGHT DRKCOIN IS A SCAM BECAUSE IT SEEMS IT ACTUALLY IS A SCAM.

do you have issue with that agenda?? if so why?

1. Dark coin (called some other name) was launched  and the BLOCK EXPLORER shows a huge amount of blocks being instamined almost INSTANTLY.
2. Dark coin bolstered their instamine by starting WITHOUT AND WINDOWS QT ( THANKS FOR BRINGING THIS TO MY ATTENTION)

Agree, he is very biased and hard to deal with, but his posts are well worth reading.

Well, that's correct if 'breaking' means finding a way to almost instantly calculate hash value. But imagine that a way to instantly find a collision is found. Bitcoin code (on which almost all altcoin wallets are based) prevents duplicate block hashes, but one can 'borrow' valid block hash from another blockchain with the same PoW algorithm and reuse it. Another question is where and how inject arbitrary bits into block header, there is only 32 bit of nonce and something like 14 low bits of time value, so this attack is rather theoretical for now. Quick conclusions - the first hash in chain should be the strongest one, high difficulty blockchain could damage its weaker siblings with the same algorithm.

Point is, if there's less heat, then something surprising is going to happen. Basic common sense. Watch the Groestlcoin :)

I think no, as long as PoW hash is not used to calculate Merkle root, but even this would be almost insignificant. And most altcoins use old good double SHA-256 for transaction hashes, IIRC.
Orphan rate is an excellent topic, I'd be glad to see a good discussion about it, though I have almost nothing to contribute to it.

Very interesting! Could you give a link to discussion?

what did you mean when you said it could create more collisions?

how was screwing your niece?

From the start you had that posture, anyone who doesn't share your view is a fool. It's visible that you only want to undermine x11, and now Darkcoin. What's the end game ? I don't now yet. From the efficiency of the algo the subject has nicely shifted to the coin, and now you use the word "scam" like you discovered it yesterday.  ::)

Imagine that every hash function in the chain has a collision. That's mean that it transforms, say, 2^256 possible values into lesser # of values. For example, let's suppose it's twice as small for every hash in the chain, 2^255. So, chaining, say, 256 such functions will lead to very small target space, with very few possible block hashes.

Cool you watch a very good TV show.

off topic: off

JR you have been here 1 month and 1 week shut the fuck up .
and yeah i know a LOT about this stuff and no i don't want to inspect the source of every coin that comes along
nor could i ..there is simply way too many of them.
thanks for your fucking stupid comment and who are you ? just another NEW guy here that seems to be an expert on things spouting off ?
hmm wow seems to be a lot brand new account here that pop up trying to come off like experts on things..
hmm you wouldn't be a guy who has trolled on me with 10 other accounts would you ?
Oh and yeah when a coin ANN page lists what algos's it uses THAT is proof.. that says it all right there..
and that will tell me that since most of the Darkcoin algo's for example are already used in 20 other coins i can guarantee they copied and pasted them lol
your garbage lippy bullshit is decimated so sit down and shut the fuck up ok "Junior" forum member
and have some respect speaking for me a "Senior" member ok son ;) ..i have paid my dues and done my homework and spent most of my life for almost a year doing this.

Quote from the DRK dev... whom I understand was the developer or at least the most prominent promoter of X11...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=529570.msg5935102#msg5935102


That in a nutshell tells me that choosing X11 for its ASIC-resistance is not sound choice, as it appears the developer's true intent in designing X11 was only to delay ASIC's while still being ASIC-centric.

ah okay thanks for the explanation :)

@cryptohunter has created a self moderated topic where only him and his friends can play. Like I said here, some pages ago, this was never a discussion but a statement.

You're my friend so you're invited. Sadly though for you ....you have to stick to the topic and tell only the truth :)

I didn't want the x11 thread derailed further so now you dark coin haters have your own thread to discuss your fav topic. :)

Come over and play ... .although taoway should know right now, extreme drkcoin hate will not be tolerated on there. Only post the facts , you've done a great job so far but i just sense you are working yourself up now.

Great, thank you! And now Darkcoin is in my watch list :)

nice advertisement but you repeated the same old bs we have already heard..
i call bullshit on you because i went and downloaded you miner and tried with a pool and i got between 60 and 83% cpu usage on my haswell i7 4770k cpu.
that proved your full of shit.
you can NOT compare your shitty cpu miner hashing mess running at 60% cpu usage with a scrypt miner running at 100% cpu usage.
sorry that is concrete irrefutable crystal clear proof your flat out plain and simple WRONG !

claim no.1 busted.

and then we can dig into the rest of it lol

when one algo is maxing out my cpu and one is not that is a notable point.
further more you are comparing X11 shit to what ? scrypt ?
so what will happen if i make a coin based on the MD5 hashing algo ? ..using 12% cpu usage ? LOL

I bet i know more about this stuff than you do so called dev..
i have long ago reversed engineered my windows firewall i am using and the HASHING algo's it uses and cracked the program,
and then i coded three different keygens for it in different languages using the HASHING algo's AND the custom secret algo the coder made up i reversed.
When you walk in here and copy and paste Quark and give it no credit at all and play mr smart dev your bullshitting all of us !

Let's hear some tech specs mr dev you didn't post ANY..
The people that came by here and commented have while you avoided it and still are.. i wonder why ? hmmm

You have brain washed people into believing a marketing ploy. It's pure bullshit !