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1481  Economy / Economics / Re: Saving one third what you earn monthly is not that hard, isn't it ? on: January 10, 2023, 10:59:10 PM
It isn't hard if you're living alone, but it becomes a problem when you have a lot if mouths to feed and bills to pay. Saving isn't for everyone obviously, and before you can start to save you need to have some form of safety net in the event that your salary won't allow you to pay all the bills and put some food on the table. This is why a lot of people nowadays opt to take two jobs just to get by. After everything is paid for, there still wouldn't be enough to keep as a decent savings. Just imagine getting $4000 a month, and $2500 already goes to bills and rent/mortgage, how can you live off of $1500 for food and transportation with a family of 4? That's not including education funds too.

If wages can br increased then perhaps we can encourage a lot of people to save. But in reality, even single people cannot live off of minimum wage and still have some decent money left for anything that they want nowadays.
Yes, on the time that you do have some mouths to feed then it would really be hard for you to save up and you would really be prioritizing those who are in need specially your family and this is the sad truth.
You wont be minding if you do have some savings as long you do make your family do able to eat for a particular day and this would really be your priority rather than on having a savings.
So we cant really blame out people for them not to save up because this is situational and there are things which we cant really be able to stop or to avoid
and that what makes the situation hard.
1482  Other / Archival / Re: online lottery games on: January 10, 2023, 09:53:06 PM
I checked and found out togel lotto is popular in Singapore and it involves determining the outcome of four numbers from a long range of numbers ranging from 0000 and 9999. To be honest it is difficult making such prediction with this large numbers, no strategy nor technique can make any reasonable guess. It will take pure luck to get a number that matches the one drawn.
The location of the of the site doesn't reakly boarders me vut rhe manner at which oos want to go about geting the correct numbe, mahmgic to me is not real abd I don't trust or or believe in any form of number formulation claiming to ve correct score or corrct number in lottery but I slightly believe in luck.
It will be even more difficult if the lottery can produce four numbers because each row of numbers can produce many possible numbers that can come out as winners.
And yes, getting the desired row of four numbers requires a high level of luck.
But even so, people will still try their luck by calculating the numbers to find the right number.
But some people will buy the lottery with no hope of winning and only get random numbers but it turns out they are the ones who can win it.
However, there are people who do the calculations before they decide which combination of numbers to choose as the bet, don't understand how they will calculate and whether doing the calculations will make their chances of winning bigger really don't understand this. It's just that gamblers will always try to be able to win, do a lot of calculations and everything, but he won't be able to take into account other factors such as luck.
I don't know if you already know, but in my place, this calculation is called permutation, I wouldn't call it calculations though, since as i understand, they just try to look at the previous numbers that came out as the winning numbers at that particular period in previous times, though I don't know how they reason it to be possible, but they tend to believe that there is a chance that those numbers that came out as winning numbers at that particular time two, three or even five years ago, is likely to come out as the winning numbers again, its just like expecting or predicting that something that happened in January 2020, will happen again in January 2023.

Its just crazy.

 
It is really just crazy on where some people do really end up on believing into something which its never been that something new if we do speak about those repetition of past results or outcomes.
We know the odds and chances for lottery games to pop out which it is really that slim basing up on combinations which are possible to be chosen.It is really just people are really that fan
to have those kind of so called permutations which you do say but there were no solid evidences or proofs that it does really work or something like that.
1483  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: You Learn More from Losses than from Wins on: January 10, 2023, 09:21:13 PM
Learning is one thing but making money is another. If you could learn that's great but after a while if you keep losing then you learned enough and still losing so that's not good. You need to learn from the losses and eventually start to win some, if you keep having some sort of problems no matter what, that's going to hurt you one way or another.

Wins are as important if not more important than the losses because it gives you some money but also gives you a freedom to lose and learn at the same time whereas losses do not have that kind of benefit because there is a limit to your funds and if you keep losing then even if you learned, you do not have the funds anymore.
If you are dealing with something and turns out to be that negative or something you cant really still make out some money or profit then it does signify that you arent that progressing.
You arent really be able to make yourself be able to handle up the risk because its impossible for someone not to be able to learn up considering that we humans could really make out some
adjustment for whatever things that we do have experience back in the past.You cant really just make yourself be steady or not to be able to progress which
is something that impossible.
1484  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Woman won $43million but was offered a steak dinner instead of her winnings on: January 10, 2023, 08:47:13 PM

Isn't this just the stupidest reason not to give her her winnings?
Couldn't they have known that their so-called machine was faulty before letting gamblers use it?
How could they do this to her?

This is very annoying for this kind of treatment to the woman because it's just irrational for this to be generally accepted. Although I can blame the casino too because it look obvious that the machine had malfunctioned for the woman to win such a big amount of money that is unbelievable to happen on a normal ground. Since it's just a machine and it do not have a concrete evidence to back it up in order to fill the case to court.
This shouldn't have been accepted but I am still thinking possible it could be for someone to win a big amount of money if the machine does not malfunctioned.
Whether the casino was honest or not then there's nothing we can do since they had made out their negotiations in between the women and the company itself.If she had just dealt up with on the claims that it was broken then it is really just sad that she had just spiked and mind off about change of her life since shes already a millionaire but ending up that it was really just a dream given on this circumstances.
Companies shouldn't allow broken machines if ever this was true and not really some excuse just not to pay up that huge win.
1485  Economy / Speculation / Re: Elon Musk says the price of BTC will rise on: January 09, 2023, 11:52:57 PM
Entering the second week of January, the price chart is still moving as usual and yesterday it reached a price of $17k. The shortest timeframe for us to see Bitcoin move is 2024 or one more year. This is just a basic assumption from our monitoring of the market because we are also not great speculators who can guess when this situation will change and to what extent Bitcoin will reach its highest price.
Predicting changes in the Bitcoin solid situation is not easy because it is not based on anyone's guesses, but based on the buying and selling power that always occurs in the market. Right now the price of Bitcoin is still very close to $17K and if there is another bounce in the near future in Bitcoin, maybe everyone will see Bitcoin going above $17K or in the area close to $18K before entering February
The theory is like that. The rise and fall of prices is not due to speculators or anyone's guesses but because of the level of purchasing power and selling power. Therefore, further study is needed so that the selling rate can be reduced in percentage. Of course this is because we hope that Bitcoin can continue to increase in price.

The market closed the price of Bitcoin yesterday at $17,091 and the price chart to date is still increasing by 1.70%. At the time of writing, the price is $17,234.
Doesnt matter if you are a billionaire or an average joe on which all of us here on this market are speculators which means that there would be no one would be able to predict on what would be the future
prices would look like and this is why you shouldnt really be relying into others decision when it comes to investment on which there would be no guarantee that it would happen.
thing here is that these billionaires or popular people does make out some significant effect if the hype and fud do really takes  place but it is really basing up on
certain situations which it doesnt happen all the time.
1486  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Twitch To Ban Gambling Streaming By October 18th. on: January 09, 2023, 11:18:55 PM
Since the thread was still active I was kinda curious, does anyone have any info on how effective the twitch ban was? I don't think it's has any negative connotation so far, no news about what has happened with twitch after all which basically means good news imo.

A streaming website fully dedicated to gambling seems like too niche to gather enough attention from the public, and as such streamers would probably ignore such platform, so I think the opposite is the correct route.
Casinos going for streamers and sponsoring them is attributed to their fame, which not only comes from gambling originally but from other sources as well. Having a website just for streaming gambling stuff seems kinda dumb, I reckon them making a channel (and possibly coordinating with the platform about possible rule bypasses) would prove to be much better, maybe inviting big streamers than gamble there every now and then.

Not really sure if this data can help us track how Twitch was affected business wise

https://twitchtracker.com/statistics

There's a lot of numbers to digest, but it seems they are not that affected, or at least at how we projected them to be due to he supposedly ban on gambling streamers in their platform.

And there are reports that gambling streamers are still alive and kicking on Twitch again.
Is there some revoked decision in regarding to this? If there are already people who had been streaming out some gambling streams then its safe to presume that it is allowed again.
It is really just that they havent decided to make it public or made out some announcement in regarding to this.It is really impossible that they wont really be that serious on banning
gambling streams.If the numbers or statistics havent changed after than gambling ban then it does shows that they are still relevant despite of the situation
but people says that there are streams that pertains about gambling.
1487  Economy / Economics / Re: MONEY IS THE MOTIVATING FACTOR, what do you think? on: January 09, 2023, 10:53:02 PM
Money can never buy happiness. but without money, one cannot have happiness. everything in this world needs money, without money there is not much we can do. according to the theme of the title above and as you said, that money is a driving factor and without even being told that money can answer everything we need. in essence, money is used for things that are vital for humans today, as a means of transaction.
Not everything requires money. There are some things that no need money. For example, people in the village can get food from the forests, they don't need money to do it. But I can agree that money has a crucial role in human life, without money we will get difficulties in many things. Especially if we live in a city, money is almost the key to get any things.

Well, people always need money for any transaction. We buy everything with money, it is very clear in our daily life.



Money is no doubt important for our day to day activities and expenses. But not everyone sways to the tunes of money. There are people that are content with the little they’ve got. They live a modest life and has very little needs.
Admittedly, people that live in the city spend more money than people that live in the rural and countryside where things are more reserved. But, generally I do not agree with the OP that money is the motivating factor as there are some people that aren’t motivated or swayed by money
We are all here on this market and on this forum trying out to find ways for us to make more money or having that income aside from our day jobs.In our world which is really been having that inevitably
recession and on going or unstopping inflation then it would really be just worth that you would really be finding ways for you to make more income.
We are really that thriving on daily living and survival which it would really be just that normal that we would be aiming to make or getting some money but its not something
that easy where someone could able to deal with it easily.
1488  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: What are the motives that drive you to gamble? on: January 09, 2023, 09:48:52 PM
Gambling is now a way to earn money and most people are beginning to take betting as a means of income, those with good skills in odds calculation and accumulation are constantly winning and making profits from their activities
This is not true and I humbly urge you to stop spreading such misconceptions. No one should look at gambling as a reliable source of income even if some people make a lot of money from it. If they did it's because they were lucky nothing more. Being skilled may give you a small advantage but won't let you win all the time.
A minor or a new gambler may get mislead by your statement and lose his money by gambling more than he can afford to lose.
There are really some dumb people who do spread out wrong things which do give misconceptions specially into newbies which it is really that mind boggling on how they do really treat up some condition
or telling that gambling is one of the main source of income or rather this guy is talking up some shit which is something that we should ignore on.When it comes to motivation or things that do really
contribute into your interest on doing gambling and this is the main reason on why people is driven out to gambling or having that interest which is common sense.
It is really just they do really differ on how they do treat gambling whether its for fun and entertaining or making money which is really that a wrong thing.
1489  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: You Learn More from Losses than from Wins on: January 09, 2023, 08:57:26 PM
Remember the first trading lesson you learned as a newbie? Did it come from a win or a loss? A loss teaches you about the reality of the market, protects you from becoming cocky, and humbles you. When you are a beginner trader, a small loss is not a terrible thing. Losses teach you proper trading risk management strategies and techniques and respect for the market and prepare you for long-term success.

Remember the first lesson you learned as a beginner trader? Did it come from a loss or a win?
For sure you would really be learning lessons out of your losses more than on your wins which is really that common sense.On the time you do win then you would really be having thoughts
that you are really that should be sticking with that strategy since its been making money for you but on the time that trades becomes a mess or something that negative then this is
where those hopes been crumbled or down and this is where realization do sits in and you would really be finding ways for you to make yourself that realizing on what
are the things you should do next or shall we say plan B's.
1490  Other / Archival / Re: online lottery games on: January 08, 2023, 11:59:47 PM
One of the major issue on Lotto game is the number guessing. It is not all gamblers that good with number guessing. That is why I don't normally play Lotto but once a while.  Your question one is probability, Lotto is purely a guess work and it is not easy to guess set of the numbers correctly so I won't say you should bet with a high figure of fund to loss all. But it is a personal decision.
And I don't think the city have any terminology to sort number but as a player you have to sort it out by yourself.
No one is good with number guessing and everything would really be in random based and this is how reality works with lottery and this is why on this market where online lottery games doesnt really get that much
attention or interest because people find the odds or winning chance isnt something that good where its not really that surprising.Comparing with those national lotteries then the odds would be just the same.
They would only differ on how many digits or numbers combinations could really be put up or limits and you could make out some calculations on those winning odds which i could
say that it isnt really that worth to waste up money on buying tickets.
1491  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Robo Inu? on: January 08, 2023, 11:28:14 PM
Anyone heard of this? Some are saying it’s going to be the next Shiba Inu. They have a wallet and a DEX coming out but don’t really seem to be going anywhere probably because of the bear market. Could this be the next one to blow up?
If it's another SHIBA INU that tries to copy Dogecoin then it doesn't matter. Even if it has DEX exchange and a wallet it doesn't it's going to blow up like other meme coins out there. It's still be treated as meme coin as the name called it. If it doesn't gain any hype from any big person on the internet then we won't see any drastically changes from this particular project.
I also think that this project will not be successful, because no one knows anything about it. This thread was created almost a month ago, but I have not seen robo-inu on any exchange. But on the other hand, look at the sensational project BONK. No one had heard anything about it too until it grew by 900%. And with it SOL was reborn. So all these mem-coins are a lottery.
This is why lots of people who do flock into these projects which they do really have those kind of hopes that it would really be the next dogecoin or shiba inu and as expected that there would he those people who would really be considering on making something out from those hyped projects and assuming or presume that it would really be getting on the same recognition and demand out of those earlier projects.
To those people who had just missed out those opportunities would normally be having that kind of consideration on making investment out of those hopes which
its never been recommendable or something risky to be made.
1492  Other / Archival / Re: who played here? on: January 08, 2023, 10:59:28 PM
Can you guys recommend me a good casino?  
There are lots but according into your preference on what type of games you would be liking.

If casinos then here's some few of them;

1. Fortunehack
2. Rollbit
3. Stake
4. Roobet
5. Duelbits
and more....

If you do go for bookies you can test up

1. Sportsbet.io
2. Playbetr
3. Stake
4. Nitrogensport
5. Betcoin.ag
1493  Economy / Economics / Re: The Taste of an Economic Downturn on: January 08, 2023, 09:51:03 PM
That's really too high for onion, recently I bought a kg for a dollar and that's pretty good deal.

But clearly I know the prices of groceries are higher than what it used to be which is even beyond the inflation rate, for example cooking oil doubled in price when I compare the price of 2020 and fuel almost 40% hike, milk 30%, rice 40 to 50% and etc so this isn't good for middle class especially one who earn money via salary.
There are commodities which are really depending on overall market trade which it would be basically be depending on that usual supply and  demand thing, there are just things which are isolated type of problems
basing up on a particular country but in overall it would really be just depending on how these suppliers or main sources would really be jacking up their prices and for retailers then they would really be just
simply adjusting into that and it would be passed up into us consumers which is really just a typical chain which it isnt really that something new on facing up these challenges as we do live.
Middle to low class people would really be able to be hit up with these changes.
1494  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Crypto Casino on: January 08, 2023, 08:53:45 PM
Honestly, how can casino owners design their platforms to make users win most times? It will be a huge loss for them, either the casino platform is old or new you will lose more than you win, OP keeps jumping websites looking for the one that will let him win, this is so wrong.

As a player you need to lower your expectations and expect more loses than winning even if you have your winning strategy,  also I think it's better to see gambling as fun so use money you are willing to lose and enjoy the fun.
To get something from any sector, he must have knowledge in that particular sector. All of a sudden, without any experience, just taking part in betting will not bring success. Although we think of gambling as luck. In the view of OP, I feel that he may have failed to achieve success by gambling in a very short period of time, so he is somewhat disappointed. Gambling with a good understanding of the casino and the game can lead to positive results with repeated attempts. However, money that could cause a major disaster if lost, should never be used in gambling. Good gambling is possible if you think of it as entertainment rather than anything serious.
If you do try to read up on what he had post he was saying about seeing no one is winning but all lost, i dont know on how he had able to assess that thing specially if things cant really be checked out internally.If this is the case on which talking about no winners then it would really be a big question in regarding about legitimacy of the said platform. He hadnt been able to  mention out about the names of those sites.
We know that we do have some good numbers of legitimate casinos which we could really be playing on without any doubts or something that could be trusted.
It just turns out that op had just stepped  on the wrong place.
1495  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: If Luck Was Measured In Percentage, Rate Your Luck In 2022 From 0-100 on: January 07, 2023, 07:22:37 PM
I consider 2022 to have been a fairly successful gambling year for me, as I have never lost more money than my own established threshold of $100-200 per gambling session. Of course there were wins and losses, but I can't say that I lost or won much.

I hope that 2023 will be more productive and bring us all what each of us dreams about.
Better not to make yourself that believing nor hopeful but its not bad to wish on having a bad year with your gambling activity and specially with your budget or limits.Not all are really that good
when it comes to handling up their emotions towards gambling activity, there are people who dont mind on how much they do spend on gambling as long they do really tend to chase up
those wins but there are ones who do come after for the entertainment which it is a must thing.For me i could rate 50% where i do enjoy up my games or gambling activity on last
year even though i have the feeling that im on negative.  Cheesy
1496  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Twitch To Ban Gambling Streaming By October 18th. on: January 06, 2023, 11:24:55 PM
The idea is to just disrupt the market by getting what is not allowed in other places. I mean we had erotic cam websites for a long time and they streamed and that caused a little bit of difference. But, when onlyfans started people acted as if that's normal, which I think it's normal but to imagine onlyfans as normal yet some stream websites as not normal? That's weird.

So, I guess there will eventually one website where it is allowed to do ANYTHING as long as it's fine by law, like not "watch me steal money live!" type of deal of course lol, but anything legal will be allowed and it will grow to be much much bigger than twitch one day, I am 100% sure of it.
That's one big truth.

When those activities before we're like the hidden secrets of many users and then a huge company puts up the actual place where everyone who has that darkest secrets meet there and get paid for those fancy activities that they've been wanting to do and monetize.

The same will surely be made for gambling, this type of action from Twitch is just like complying to whatever issue has brought to them.

Viewers won't be gone and they know it but the sudden drop of their activity will push them to modify the ruling or they should look at their own platform every now and then, because many of them are still there, free.
And it seems that later, Twitch will change its rules little by little to re-attract the interest of its users and will not violate government regulations. And Twitch may negotiate again with the government regarding this matter because the regulations from the government have clearly reduced their income. And Twitch is still seeing what it would be like if they still had the same rules in place today so they can later apply to change the rules. So while Twitch is still waiting, the streamers are looking for other places to still interact with their followers and keep their videos broadcast to the public.
For sure Twitch might be making up some negotiations in regarding to revoke up such laws or regulation about banning gambling streams but most likely this would turn out to be final but who
knows that one day we would be seeing some change of decisions and they would really be allowing it again.

So far i do see up this one.
Top Streamer Launches Twitch Alternative

https://www.baltictimes.com/top_streamer_launches_twitch_alternative/

Could this be able to be enough on going with the competition?
1497  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Those who survived previous winter, please share some courage! on: January 06, 2023, 10:36:58 PM
Those who've seen previous bear markets, survived several winters, please share some hope and courage.
This is not the end, right? Smiley
Don't look at the equivalent amount in Fiat because for sure you will dishearten to see your portfolio going down. Instead look for the long term, like in the next bull run in 2024/25. And to be able to take advantage of the bull run, you need to accumulate now and that should be your focus. You can buy in bulk, but most of us here buy using a what we call DCA, so it could be weekly or monthly buy. And last, just be mentally tough, and don't panic in this bear market. Sooner or later we will get over with this one and for sure who will be happy that you didn't sell and continue to accumulate and HODL.
But not all does have the patience on doing so and this is why most of the time they would really be making out some actions basing up on what they do have in mind.Not all does have that control
and not all does have that kind of patience for them to hold that long and this is why it does really vary on a certain individual when it comes to their decisions. Market could neither be
bearish or bullish and if you are that someone who do engage to it then they should really be that versatile or someone who could make out some switch up or
made out some adjustments on point.
1498  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Running a casino during crypto crash on: January 06, 2023, 09:58:32 PM
Hello guys, as an attempt to protect new or old users on this forum , I think its mandatory for gambling sites to show proof of money they are holding in reserves  . Unless casinos converts all deposits to a stablecoin , excluding UST hahahah , from year to date most of them should be running on a loss as most utilized crypto coins are down by atleast 65% and that includes Bitcoin .

There will be more and more accusations  created to existing and also new casinos.

 Goodluck,Be safe and smart out there!!
I don’t think gambling sites will consider it as a must to show proof to the people on how much their own site has left money to operate. They will consider it as their own privacy. The only proof that they can show to the people is that if they are still giving payouts without delay and still making more promotions and bonuses that makes the gamblers more interested to play, that means the gambling site is still capable to manage their own casino business.
Its a private part or something that shouldnt be show off publicly or easily considering that if someone would be finding out on how much they do own then hackers and possible exploiters would really be trying out
their best on making up some holes or something like that or in overall security risk and hazard. Thing here is that if you do saw that there are lots of users who do hang out with a certain platform
then it would really be that common sense that you would really be seeing or presume that they are really making such huge revenue and something results that they could withstood any economic
downturns or bad situations.
1499  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: What's your opinion on the future of Decentralised exchanges on: January 05, 2023, 11:59:27 PM
I am not sure if people will prefer to use Uniswap or PancakeSwap in the future. I believe people won't stop to use top CEXs like Binance, Kucoin, Coinbase, or Kraken because they have good features for trading and have big volumes as well. But people will be more careful to manage their tokens, they probably won't keep their coins on CEXs for a long time anymore. They are aware that keeping coins on CEXs is high risk, CEXs can have a problem at any time. They can't secure their coins because CEXs that have a full control to the coins.


Decentralized and centralized exchanges has it's own advantage and disadvantages and it will all depends on the user on which weighs more. I personally prefer using decentralized exchanges but I still use my centralized exchanges for some pairs and other things such as P2P trading but I don't store a big amount of crypto on centralized exchange given that there's a risk in it. In the future when decentralized exchange caught up to the pros of centralized exchange, I'm pretty sure the users of decentralized exchange will overlap the reigning centralized exchange. Also, People will introduce their preferred decentralize exchange first into newbies unlike last bull market where majority of newbies only knows the famous centralized exchanges.
Yes, we community does really have on being decentralized but we cant really avoid nor ignore that there are things which we do mainly need and this can be only be seen on centralized ones specially on crypto to fiat
conversions which is something that you cant done on a DEX and its one of the cons but when it comes to security then there's no doubt that DEX would be the key.
This is why its subjective and its really that obvious on what places is really making that huge volume and liquidity due to those factors which it isnt really that surprising.
1500  Economy / Gambling discussion / Re: Is playing national lottery smart or waste of time? on: January 05, 2023, 10:59:24 PM

Well, yes. The problem is always the mindset. There are people with fixed mindsets who, even if you were to confront them with facts, physical and mathematical evidence, then there would still not be a doubt in my mind that such a person is going to spend money on a lottery ticket in hopes of changing his life, based on a miracle.

Lotteries depend on the desperation and hopes of people who believe in ridiculous things. But then again there are more than enough of such people (crystal gazers, astrologists, fortune tellers and so on).

Basically its impossible to convince those who do not wish to be convinced.
I agree on this one which there are lots of people whom i do know to have that kind of fixed mindsets which there's no way that you could influence them or do changed up their minds once they do target out on a
particular thing.I cant see myself to be that reliant and keeping on betting with national lotteries just because i do wish up for some miracle.It is really just enough that im really that aware on what are those odds
and chances on getting the jackpot and just been said by most people that odds or chance isnt really that something you could waste your time on going into those lottery booths and would make a bet.
Even if its cheap but overtime those amounts would be significant specially if you are already betting for years already and this is should how people do look into it.

I don't bet on national lotteries or any kind of lottery because there is only a very slim chance of winning but I do understand why people keep on buying lottery tickets despite of the possibility of winning.  I think it is worth the try because if they win, it is life-changing.  I do not buy lottery tickets not because I am against it, I am not buying lottery tickets because  I do not have faith in my luck of winning the lottery.
When you are just looking for the odds or chances on winning the lottery then you would definitely get discourage and this is indeed my main reason on why i dont also make out bets on national lotteries.
It might be interesting for other people but not for me.I agree that the one main driving factor on why people do keep on betting is that once they do hit up the jackpot then it would
really be a life changing one and this is what they do have in mind and this is the reason on why they do keep on betting despite of the odds or chances on winning up.
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