Why are they concerned with 700 boards/day figure? Batch 1 is ~550 jets wasn't it? They need to concentrate on getting one fucking batch out to the people who paid the most $/GH. Assholes, i swear.
But 700 units a day sounds SOOOOOOOOOOOO fucking awesome, no?? Guess what guys fantastic news, their PSU manufacture can supply 2000 PSU's a day!!!! /end sarc |
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The latest projections put my Batch 1 Sierra's 100% BTC ROI at somewhere around 12 months. I can live with that, especially as USD ROI goes to the moon.  Did you seriously just type that? So you are now in the business of risking BTC giving out 12 month loans that 'might' pay back your original value IF you can precisely gauge network hash rate growth over a 12 month period? Give me a break man. If anyone actually listens to your obvious shill nonsense they deserve what they get. You ridicule and belittle EVERY other mining operation except Hashfast and ice drill. Your game is transparent and getting old. He sounds like SLOK, yup another BFL comparison. I had to put him on ignore, his comments and responses are never helpful nor meaningful in any way shape or form. Looking at the colour of his ignore symbol it's pretty clear a lot of people also have no time for his silly posts. This thread reads much nicer with him on ignore. |
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You'd be wise not to confuse the rabid purchase of miners in a market with very little supply and high demand with running a business successfully.
The BTC/ASIC phenomena will settle soon enough and unless your plan was for AMT to only last a few months, you will find that being an asshole to your existing and/or potential customers will bite you in the ass.
I think what we're doing is the furthest thing from "being an asshole" or confusing this with running a business successfully. We are not running this successfully at the moment at all, we're basically just trying even run it. And other manufacture out there that claims anything but the same, is full of it. And this business of BTC miner manufacturing can only be comparable to something like "riding a psychotic horse into a burning stable". We've designed our miners to have the ability to work with several different types of chips. Slotting a board on 3.5 modified heatsink will not only allow us to keep shipping but to partner with most of the real chip manufacturers in the process. As long as our boards stay the same size, and we master ways to cool these things which is another challenge of the week (Avalon), we're fine. The LTV of our customers will surpass those of any other manufacturer. Because if your a miner and the difficulty just sky rocketed, do you want to wait for a another full miner on pre-order, or to order an AMT 220ghs drive that you can use to swap out your 45ghs bitfury drive. Coincraft is a great chip, I promise you that. And bitfury is still a great chip and will always be the best chip design during the blossoming of the BTC mining industry. But since the value of BTC skyrocketed they have chosen halt sales for the moment. Bitfury was designed by a Ukrainian man so intellectually and so smart that even 1 year later the chip itself yields a higher hashing power with the right board design. No one ever seems to notice or recognize that fact, and their distributors Dave and Niko are honest and good men as well. But in a world of chaos and greed, I don't blame them for being out of stock, but it does present an issue and a possible problem which we foresaw when designing our miners. So that effects our business obviously, but since our board/hotslot model is a versatile one, we can swap these out with Avalon boards and change our products to the AMT100 and AMT 150, and continue to ship. A problem we have currently is that Avalon heats up like crazy, so now we have to figure out a smart cooling method to the hot slot model, which we will, and needed to anyway, because moving 320W of heat per board (Coincraft) out of an aluminum case isn't an easy one. So whats the solution to that - the most simplest - slid-able removable side panels for the moment. We've designed this business and these miners with the idea of what the mining customers goes through, the problems of greed in this industry from all levels, and the problems that that the customer faces, and basically the only thought process anyone could and should have needs to start with " Ok, So what's the worst that can happen " and then make the business model backwards. So do we want to flaunt these miners, create videos and gain the attention of some of the other competitors out there who obviously invest their time and money in trolling and DDOS attacking sites(Our site is undergoing one right now by the way) and putting down other companies over the phone trying to sell their clients. (A few of our larger clients came from one company who spent 20 minutes on the phone just bashing everyone else ). Or do we want to sell and ship quietly to our customers which are also, on the level. But between DDOS attacks, an attempted break in, merchant processors/banks screwing things to hell, chip suppliers limiting availability and the worst of all it, trolls. Most men would have quit by now. But we are not most men - and if we come off like an asshole, we don't mean to and apologize in advanced. Okay, I feel bad, you sound like you're working hard. And if you are, it's even more tragic that you sound like you're running a scam, which if you just take a step back and objectively read this thread, is honestly what it sounds like. That being said, don't blame the bitcoin community or these forums as some kind of unique environment where everything is horrific. Running any small business is like what you describe. People are trying to swindle you, from suppliers to customers. I've seen it in the restaurant biz, I've seen it in B2B. You're not cursed, in fact, you have the unique opportunity to have a large amount of customers concentrated in one place (here) and that should be an advantage to you, not something to hide from. Put on your game face, show people how excited you are about it and people will drink the kool-aid if you sound positive and like a believer. Don't be pressured to promise anything because of b.s. promises other companies are making. Speaking to customers and making them believe in you and your product is a skill and it takes hard work to get there. It means not getting pissed off (in public) when someone talks shit about you or the little company you are trying to build, it means taking feedback from people with a smile on your face, even though you are boiling with rage inside, it means telling everyone to "calm down, be patient, we're hard at work!" when you mean "fuck off, we're working on it you impatient bastards". It means have a real plan and a schedule for updates even though it seems like your time is better spent on actually doing the work. Just to use a Thanksgiving analogy, when you're cooking a turkey you are tempted to open the oven and check on the turkey a bunch of times, which slows down/ruins the cooking. But, you can solve that problem with a digital meat thermometer - even though the process hasn't changed, the information, whatever it is, is the difference between watching the game and enjoying your family and standing around in the kitchen, getting short with anyone who wants to know when we will be eating. Well said Amer +1, this is how the real world operates, PR is a very difficult skill to master. Engineers and geeks typically don't understand the skill set and the importance of PR in the real world (not this gold rush Deadwood crypto's are in for the time being). One of if not the biggest hurdle's for a start up is the ability to attract new customers. Companies that are run well, have a solid business model with great products fail every single day because they can't get enough new customers fast enough. The fact that this gold rush has created an environment where demand far exceeds supply is something that almost every start up would give their eye fucking teeth for. You've been given something that most new companies would KILL for and you should try to respect the value of that oh and remember it will not last forever... Good luck AMT I actually tried to place a PP/CC order very early on and it didn't work, I talked with Jim in customer support a number of times (he gave me a 5% discount and was pleasant and professional). I didn't end up re-ordering, just because I hate the pre-order game and getting my pp account verified etc was to much hassle for me, miner or no miner meh I'm good (my BTC are staying in my wallet for a while). |
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I also asked John about the delivery times of the next batches and upgrade chips and he has told me that they are going be shipped in order of payment. He told me that at full production they are limited by 700 boards per day Lets hope boards come up next week and we could see units shipping soon. If they produce 700 units a day they will clear the shipping queue really fast We all know that they are really late and what they have been doing about the shipping dates and Tos is not something we will forget so easy. I would say it's pretty dificult to reach the 700 units in a day production in a short period of time, but lets hope Ciara do its job. There is nothing more we could do also  They haven't even hashed anything... did he say anything about how it actually exists beside some felt stencil? HF is sounding more and more like BFL every day!! Theoretical Max production numbers LOL. |
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Nokia 3310
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So much for BTC in BTC out. Fuck me, pre-ordering is worse odds than the fucking horse track, what a mugs game. (j) REFUNDS. Any refunds due to Buyer will be made in United States Dollars, and for the purposes of calculating refunds, amounts paid in Bitcoin or other virtual currencies will be deemed paid in United States Dollars at the exchange rate given by Hashfast to its customers on the order date. Refunds for partial order cancelations or returns will be adjusted for any discounts previously given to Buyer for volume purchases. Can't even spell cancellations correctly. https://hashfast.com/checkout/terms-of-sale/This legally only applies to those that purchased after the TOS was changed. Those of us that ordered batch 1 are entitled to BTC refund. If not, we will be spending some time in front of a judge. , but they seem to doing just fine not allowing refunds, hell BFL has been flaunting it for months. If BFL has taught me one thing over the past 13+ months it's that what is legal and what is done are two very different things. Most if not all of the current ASIC manufacture's have taken one or more pages from the BFL scheme book and after witnessing the retarded success of BFL why wouldn't they do whatever the fuck they want. Wasn't it John from HF that mentioned the lack of lawsuits against BFL, I guess we can see the mind set somewhat from a statement like that. Apologies if it wasn't him/HF admittedly I didn't look for the quote just going from memory. . I'd much prefer to not lose my entire investment. Batch 1 orders probably won't ROI in USD unless BTC rises by 100x right now. The FTC mail order rule has been discussed over and over in many a BFL thread. Not sure why people can't seem to understand simple, old consumer protection laws. When you buy a fucking product the company can not hold your money for ransom, if you change your mind for any reason prior to a product physically being shipped to you, you have the right to cancel it no matter what their retarded ToS says. Now as I mentioned what your rights are and what the company does are not always the same. If they refuse your only option is to force them with the legal system (ie. retaining personal legal counsel for advice and or action or going to the FTC, State AG's etc) Putting something in your ToS that is contrary to federal regulations will not alleviate the company from complying with those federal regulations. A companies ToS does not override federal regulations LDO. When You Must Cancel an Order You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when: •the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise; •the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date; •the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date; •the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to; •you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or •you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise. http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule |
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25% discount. Hefty. I've purchased from BFL before and did eventually get ROI on my order so I can't really complain about them (apart from the many months of anguish at delay after delay).
What do you mean you made ROI? You made more bitcoins than if you have bought bitcoins instead of a miner at the time of your purchase?' Let me guess. Not by a mile  What miner has? Except for the first Avalons, I'd say it's pretty hard to mine a purchase price back (in BTC). Those 90BTC Avalons are going to be running for a long time before they earn back 90BTC. How much were the first BitFury or KNC miners when paid for in BTC? The Monarch I just paid for was 3.25BTC. Both the BTC and USD ROI are going to be depended on shipping dates, but this whole argument is pretty much a dead horse. What do you mean the whole argument is a dead horse. It's not an argument against BFL. It's an argument against miners that are making less bitcoins that you could have bought directly. Hey guys I'm selling virtual mining contracts: Full disclosure there are no miners, there never will be miners, I will not purchase and run hardware. But I will provide a fancy website you can log into and a virtual pool that will show your imaginary hashrate to make you feel better. You can OC, fuck around with fake settings, the entire hosted mining experience without the messy fucking hardware! Now the cost for these contracts I charge 10 BTC per year, and I promise you will "mine" back 8.5 BTC over the 1 year contract, if BTC price goes up you will have a tidy fiat profit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now which of you BFL customers would like to be first? Edit, actually the time of the contract is up to the customer if they would like to extend the time from 1 year (minimum) to 2,3,5 or 10 years I will not charge a single satoshi more! Come and get em |
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So much for BTC in BTC out. Fuck me, pre-ordering is worse odds than the fucking horse track, what a mugs game. (j) REFUNDS. Any refunds due to Buyer will be made in United States Dollars, and for the purposes of calculating refunds, amounts paid in Bitcoin or other virtual currencies will be deemed paid in United States Dollars at the exchange rate given by Hashfast to its customers on the order date. Refunds for partial order cancelations or returns will be adjusted for any discounts previously given to Buyer for volume purchases. Can't even spell cancellations correctly. https://hashfast.com/checkout/terms-of-sale/This legally only applies to those that purchased after the TOS was changed. Those of us that ordered batch 1 are entitled to BTC refund. If not, we will be spending some time in front of a judge. Legally they can't refuse refunds before they ship a product, but they seem to doing just fine not allowing refunds, hell BFL has been flaunting it for months. If BFL has taught me one thing over the past 13+ months it's that what is legal and what is done are two very different things. Most if not all of the current ASIC manufacture's have taken one or more pages from the BFL scheme book and after witnessing the retarded success of BFL why wouldn't they do whatever the fuck they want. Wasn't it John from HF that mentioned the lack of lawsuits against BFL, I guess we can see the mind set somewhat from a statement like that. Apologies if it wasn't him/HF admittedly I didn't look for the quote just going from memory. |
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So much for BTC in BTC out. Fuck me, pre-ordering is worse odds than the fucking horse track, what a mugs game. (j) REFUNDS. Any refunds due to Buyer will be made in United States Dollars, and for the purposes of calculating refunds, amounts paid in Bitcoin or other virtual currencies will be deemed paid in United States Dollars at the exchange rate given by Hashfast to its customers on the order date. Refunds for partial order cancelations or returns will be adjusted for any discounts previously given to Buyer for volume purchases. Can't even spell cancellations correctly. https://hashfast.com/checkout/terms-of-sale/ |
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Should ask about Litecoin in altcoins section
Just get PC with top of the range PSU, Xfire motherboard and shove as many 7990s in it as you can. I wouldn't bother with 7950s they're crap!
At this point $/kh/s the 7950 is actually the best scrypt mining card. At around $300 for 650+kh/s they are tough to beat. And OP yes IMO that is quite over priced. You could probably source those part online for about half what he is charging you. Edit: ugh I don't like single fan cards, I have a Radeon ref design 7950 and it runs way hotter than my dual X 7950's and 7970. Actually I burnt out my first ref 7950 had to RMA it, I'm assuming when OC'ing it I cooked the poor bastard. Luckily for me it was inside the 30 days and I returned it to the place of purchase for an immediate replacement. If I was outside that 30 days I would have had to RMA it back to Sapphire and while I'm sure it would have been taken care of it certainly would have been a PITA. So now I don't OC the replacement card and it runs cooler but also barely breaks 600 kh/s but has been stable and running for me for months now. |
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Your concern is duly noted and I will proceed with extreme caution, thanks for the heads up.
Careful when listening to anyone on this forum. Mr BCP19 is a stoic BFL and Inaba Fanboi. Both seem to have a personal agenda against others on this forum. Do your own research please and form your own opinion. I'm not advocating one or the other I have never done business personally with either company. Thanks for the input flying hellfish, I honestly can't understand how anybody could support inaba. I mean it's bad enough that the company has pulled a scam the likes of which has not been seen since pirateat40, breaking just about every single trade law in existence.
But Inaba's "What the fuck you gonna do about it?" attitude is the icing on the cake  I may be a terrible trader but I certainly have seen it all when it comes to scams and will be making up my own mind. I really do appreciate your's and everybody else's input. Cue Inaba popping up his villainous, pustuled swine face in an unrelated thread at the first mention of his name. Hope you knew I was joking about the short sales right? I put up that face icon...  Whew, I wasn't sure. I didn't wanna hurt your feelings in case you were being cereal  It was quite funny, looking back on the bASIC days when BFL appeared to pull numbers out of their ass just to squash bASICs phantom numbers (ya we all know how those "Estimates" worked out!). The other bit I found hilarious was the "Fire Your Customer" Mantra Inaba ran around spewing. LOL if that was such a fantastic approach why are they not still doing it? Hell as a customer you can't even "quit" any more let alone get fired!!!! I could go on but I won't, I will wish you the best of luck on your investment though (whatever you decide)! |
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Your concern is duly noted and I will proceed with extreme caution, thanks for the heads up.
Careful when listening to anyone on this forum. Mr BCP19 is a stoic BFL and Inaba Fanboi. Both seem to have a personal agenda against others on this forum. Do your own research please and form your own opinion. I'm not advocating one or the other I have never done business personally with either company. |
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So now Hashfast is selling Batch 4. The balls on this company to sell 4 batches in without delivering one.
"Orders placed today are guaranteed to ship by March 31, 2014."
Why would they stop taking orders if people are still placing new ones? The community has clearly shown that they don't care about any companies past performance. The community has clearly shown they don't really care how long it takes to deliver and that they don't care if laws and regulations are broken as long as there is a chance they can get their hands on some Unicorn Blood! BFL have set the bar pretty high and it looks like basically all the other manufacture's have learned hey, lets just do whatever the fuck we want, cause uh, we can! |
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(1) Piercing the corporate veil: I just don't see any intent to defraud here; a couple of serious fuckups but no fraud, therefore it is unlikely that personal liability would come into play. Fucking up isn't fraud.
Honestly man, you don't understand the corporate veil as well as you think you do. A corporation can not collect money from customers to fund the start up then blow it all and leave the customers holding the bag. That in itself whether fraud or not directly, is enough to pierce the veil easily. There is a reason why no sane business in the real world use's customer PRE-ORDER money to fund the start up and the reason is because it opens up instantly and easily a way to pierce the veil. |
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One eye, eh? I can at least "keep an eye" on things!  DAMN! So much for rational and reasonable discussion! Can we now proceed with more Ad Hominem attacks? Those are fun if that sort of thing hooks up with your mentality but I will not play. You know, I am trying to cushion the inevitable blow that is on the way and it is and when it does, it will hit hard. I think that you know jackshit about "intentions" but you go right ahead and have fun. No fraud here; in over their heads? Prolly so but that ain't fraud and anyway, if they were to get prosecuted for fraud, they'd get jail or probation time and since there is no money in the corporation, no one would get anything. LOL! My apologies for the ad hominem argument. Lets switch over to red herring with BFL. Just kidding. There are still two assumptions you make. 1. The corporate veil cannot be pierced. If you've done a few laps on the track, you'll know that if a corp has no significant assets, a creditor can attempt to prove that the corp is not acting as a separate entity but is the alter ego of its officers. (paraphrasing investopedia). It's not uncommon for C corp shareholders to worry about personal liability. It's not bulletproof. 2. They have no money (BTC or USD). And while you've tried to illustrate your rationalization for these assumptions. They are, in fact, assumptions. And they could very well be, and likely are, incorrect. Again, my apologies for poking fun at your eye patch. Dude most folks around here think the corporate veil is an instant win button for the owners, I can assure you it isn't. Let me share with you all (once again) one of the most common reasons that the CV is pierced, under capitalization of a start up. Now for those of you who need a little help let me explain briefly why I believe TH was under cap'd. When a company enters into a sales agreement with a customer and they take the customers money before they ship a product that money is considered a debt on the companies books ie a liability. They were spending that debt on products AND services (and overhead, fucking idiots) and they were not getting enough "assets" in return to cover those liabilities. Now the shit hits the fan and they can no longer deliver any type of product. A properly funded start-up would have enough "assets" to cover the liabilities and refund the customers (sorry investors you are the bag holders here), an under cap'd start up does not have sufficient assets to cover liabilities, sorry customers you are the bag holders here). You guys really need to understand the legal implications and risks involved with starting a business and entering into a sales agreement. Customers do not take the same risks as investors. The law has different definitions and protection measures for investors and customers, there is no definition for investomers. Going after the principals assets here seems like a pretty easy task for a competent lawyer, all it takes is a few burned customers to make it happen. If the principals have any personal assets or not to go after is an entirely different question all together. I thought I read somewhere in this thread that Amir sold his house late this summer, I wonder why he did that, expecting the worst perhaps... If that was the case time is of the essence, he already has the jump on you guys. After all is said and done if you're a burned TH customer get advice from an actual legal professional, they may be vultures but listening to a bunch of libertarian interwebz lawyers is pretty stupid. You customers that have been taken for a ride have some power left. It should be pretty easy to argue all this in a court and TH has ZERO defence. |
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I am taking BFL to court this week in Pennsylvania, also suing for treble damages since they knowingly violated the law and the FTC guidelines in not honoring refunds when requested after delays as well as the Pennsylvania Consumer Protection Law If anyone has any horror stories or if anyone would like to make any statements for me in court that would be awesome, i'll update this thread once everything is processed. Has anyone else taken ButterflyLabs to court? If not im very surprised, seems like an easy win to me.
UPDATE: Civil complaint filed and accepted in my home state in Pennsylvania, also the Pennsylvania Attorney General is investigating, I'd be interested in accepting any Affidavit's or if anyone would like to be a witness PM me. Being a witness would be better since affidavit's may not be admissible because they could be classified as hearsay. So if you live close, let me know. Also any advice or support would be appreciated. Any small win here is a good thing, if I can get a Judgement against them others may take it as an example for their own cases. Good job man, the second BF Labs stopped issuing FULL refunds when they were lawfully requested they crossed a line they will likely regret. We need more people like you to stand up to them. This wanna be libertarian crowd here seems intent to just let the BFL's and TH's of the world do whatever the fuck they want whenever the fuck they want without consequence. There is also a number of people here who will say all kinds of crazy things when it comes to the law surrounding this stuff. All I will say is BF Labs is selling a retail product on the internet and retail sales/sales contracts, consumer protection, mail order (internet selling) have been around for many many years and the laws surrounding them are old and well tested. The libertarian crowd here seems to thing some wild things about these laws and for some reason seem to think that the business model used by ASIC manufactures to date is normal. IT IS NOT, the real world doesn't operate like this for a reason (a very good reason) and it's called the law... It won't be much longer before one or more of these companies find this out, with more Joe six packs jumping on the BTC train everyday, these antics will be long gone and we will all have found memories of the jokes we call manufacture's today. |
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Crosspost:
I think that regardless of everything, we should sue them and see what happens. I receive a lot of questions via pm with persons interested to sue them, but everyone stops, due to laziness i think.
Well, they lied about the promised delivery time, they promised something that they knew would have never happen and we can easily prove that. I really don't see what else is needed.
I have money i want to trow away against HF. And arbitration looks like a dead track. Again, please, let's do something serious. (i can already visualise ice or their peers trolling me with this post, but who cares...). I want to have john to regret what he said about how many lawsuit bfl had. It's the minimum they deserve.
Have you talked to an attorney in your home country? Not sure how much you have tied up with HF or how much your willing to waste on chasing them, but shouldn't you seek legal advice first from a legal expert in your country. Perhaps a quick consultation with a lawyer locally may yield some help or at least a base understanding of what the next step might be. |
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Instant classic, lol he's a real gem that's for sure! |
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OH do the monumental assholes one please. |
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I still have 16 chip credits. Not the actually chips themselves. What would be the best way to use/trade them?
Give them to someone you don't like. |
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