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1921  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 04, 2014, 11:33:39 AM
For all the new trolls 6 years late to the Game of Bitcoins: How does it feel to have missed out on the <$3 price?
1922  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 04, 2014, 10:57:33 AM
And more selling pressure: "BFL-owned Bitcoins about to be sold under Receivership according to new court documents"

Does anyone knows how many BTC BFL hold?

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2l85y6/bflowned_bitcoins_about_to_be_sold_under/

Wasn't the number floating around about 24,000 BTC?


Edit:  Woops:  Jorge beat me to it.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.msg9431467#msg9431467

If someone will try to sold 24000 we will hit the bottom for sure, don't belive in the same scenario as it was on 300usd again
People weren't ready for bear-whales gift last time.
1923  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 04, 2014, 07:22:30 AM
Bread (or more often corn) can have a "subsidy" attack and it is done often by governments.
I agree the block subsidy is problematic.

Since we can't get rid of it, the only solution is to grow large enough that it stops distorting mining so much.
Okay I see your point, but you have to have some subsidy to bootstrap. It is on a predictable trajectory, so the math is known. Whatever projections you can design without a subsidy should be easy enough to adjust with a known math function.
1924  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 04, 2014, 07:17:03 AM
Unless Bitfinex goes offline when the next breakout begins. Then you will be stuck with fiat. These unregulated exchanges tend to do that during panics.

You're assuming most of my fiat is in an exchange. That would be reckless.
Of course not. I am saying you will be excluded from purchasing bitcoins until the panic buying ended at a much higher price, unless of course you already have a contractual agreement to make OTC purchases.
1925  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 04, 2014, 07:10:35 AM

Another fallacy here in the FUD camp is that without a hardcoded limit the size of blocks will rise to infinity.

Nobody tries to argue that we need a artificial limit on the number of loaves of bread that can be baked each day to stop bakers from producing an infinite number that nobody wants, but somehow when transistors are involved all well-known principles of supply and demand reverse themselves.

It really isn't the case that anything "technology" (as cbeast puts it) operates in some alternate bizarro world of reversed economics.
I was just making test case for falsification there, not a position.
Bread (or more often corn) can have a "subsidy" attack and it is done often by governments.
1926  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 04, 2014, 06:56:00 AM

Can you say more about this "failed attempt to consolidate"? Who was trying to consolidate it and why do you think they failed?

Idk, this kind of language is just so tired. Most people here don't actually understand market dynamics and just repeat the same blather about pumps and dumps.

I don't disagree with you though, it's a scary time to go long, but at the same time - also a scary time to short.


I'm not saying either is a great time to short at this current level. I'm saying is time to stay in fiat and wait until we have a confirmation of where bitcoin is going.
Great shorting level was at $390 after failed breakout.

BitChick was the one telling bitcoin price was consolidating in October, not me. I just told her bitcoin price didn't consolidate (and to be honest it didn't was able to even try it).
Unless Bitfinex goes offline when the next breakout begins. Then you will be stuck with fiat. These unregulated exchanges tend to do that during panics.
1927  Economy / Economics / Re: The dow will hit 30k before it falls below 10k again. on: November 04, 2014, 06:40:45 AM
Unsupported because making random predictions is just that; random. Why would the market act this way? What is the causation, how can it be predicted, why does it benefit BTC? This is mindless posting, nothing of value.
Maybe you don't remember 2008? The bubble was growing much slower then than now. Unsustainable growth is the predicted cause. Maybe the OP is wrong, but I would hardly call it random.
What bubble? Demonstrate some facts and evidence to support a conclusion. Maybe the OP isn't offering anything except random ideas, and that's not useful to this community. Offer some well thought-out predictions using the available information. Advance the conversation rather than "Well things are going to happen maybe sometime or not!"
What evidence would you accept as a reasonable indicator of a bubble soon to collapse?
1928  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 04, 2014, 05:25:42 AM
Twitter was brutal on the Winklevoss twins ...


Bankers calling the Winklevii boring.  Roll Eyes
1929  Economy / Economics / Re: The dow will hit 30k before it falls below 10k again. on: November 04, 2014, 04:54:42 AM
Yeah, this is a random unsupported post. Why would the DOW do this?
Unsupported because stock markets never crash?
Unsupported because making random predictions is just that; random. Why would the market act this way? What is the causation, how can it be predicted, why does it benefit BTC? This is mindless posting, nothing of value.
Maybe you don't remember 2008? The bubble was growing much slower then than now. Unsustainable growth is the predicted cause. Maybe the OP is wrong, but I would hardly call it random.
1930  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 04, 2014, 04:46:31 AM
I don't see any businesses selling pirated songs or movies, because only the legal ones have value. I don't see Americans using Pesos. Nobody will sell a currency if it is not liquid enough to use in a brick and mortar store. Just like every other foreign currency, you will be asked to leave it at the border.

But my friend we are in CRYPTO world!

If they want to force the use of cryptofiat upon every businesses in the country then let them do it.

Let's use your analogy with Pesos(BTC). Remember there are no borders in CRYPTOworld. So imagine that I have this magical wallet that contains only Pesos(BTC). Any time I have to pay in an american brick and mortar store that only accepts USD(cryptofiat) my magic wallet automatically transfers my pesos(BTC) into USD(cryptofiat). The merchant receives cryptofiat, hands over the good to me and we are both happy!
Maybe you didn't notice that I was agreeing with you in the point that people will chose a 1:1 if they have a choice. Your magic wallet not may not exist if the cryptofiat is not exchanged outside of legal channels. All I'm saying is that we should expect states to ban 1:1 pegged cryptocurrencies at first.

I'm sorry, I indeed was not sure how to interpret your comment. Allow me to apologize for that.

If, indeed, the cryptofiat cannot be exchanged outside of legal channel (something I'm quite certain is impossible) then I would also like to know how do you envision the cryptofiat securing its chain? One could suggest they could use coercion and violence to force miners of their country to merge mine it but in a global, crypto world, that is not sufficient and it would render them very vulnerable to a new crypto-future type of financial attack, don't you think?

Maybe so, but don't expect Keynesians to just throw in the towel. They will entice BTC owners with wonderful exchange rates. They will offer insurance. They will offer miners Quantitative Easing. All the while they will be hoarding BTC for reasons of National Security.
1931  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 04, 2014, 04:27:20 AM
I don't see any businesses selling pirated songs or movies, because only the legal ones have value. I don't see Americans using Pesos. Nobody will sell a currency if it is not liquid enough to use in a brick and mortar store. Just like every other foreign currency, you will be asked to leave it at the border.

But my friend we are in CRYPTO world!

If they want to force the use of cryptofiat upon every businesses in the country then let them do it.

Let's use your analogy with Pesos(BTC). Remember there are no borders in CRYPTOworld. So imagine that I have this magical wallet that contains only Pesos(BTC). Any time I have to pay in an american brick and mortar store that only accepts USD(cryptofiat) my magic wallet automatically transfers my pesos(BTC) into USD(cryptofiat). The merchant receives cryptofiat, hands over the good to me and we are both happy!
Maybe you didn't notice that I was agreeing with you in the point that people will chose a 1:1 if they have a choice. Your magic wallet not may not exist if the cryptofiat is not exchanged outside of legal channels. All I'm saying is that we should expect states to ban 1:1 pegged cryptocurrencies at first.
1932  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 04, 2014, 04:09:59 AM
i know that.  i never claimed that a sidecoin needed to be exchanged for BTC.  those factors don't change my argument at all, that being Bitcoin miners will be encouraged to MM initially and defect eventually given a successful SC as i have defined it.

to be honest I don't see it.

from the quote you posted I understand that a sidechain could contain different units, some that are pegged 1:1 with BTC and others that have a deterministic, floating exchange rate.

if that is the case, then I don't see the use case for such a scheme. if one wants to use the feature on such a sidechain then he would want to use the unit which carries a 1:1 peg and not the sidecoin. if, for any reason, the amount of available 1:1 units on that sidechain are limited then someone will clone the sidechain and remove the cap.

sidecoins create no incentive for the user, only additional risk.

if they have the choice between two sidechains promoting the same feature, one using a sidecoin and the other a 1:1 2wp, then the 2wp wins every time
Exactly. A state would choose a sidecoin as (dare I say) cryptofiat. They would exchange for BTC at the border.

And ban the use of any other cryptocurrency throughout the country ?

You realise this is like saying you can use the internet but please don't download songs.
I don't see any businesses selling pirated songs or movies, because only the legal ones have value. I don't see Americans using Pesos. Nobody will sell a currency if it is not liquid enough to use in a brick and mortar store. Just like every other foreign currency, you will be asked to leave it at the border.
1933  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Foundation to repair relationship with community on: November 04, 2014, 04:01:36 AM
If a centralized organization to put  a face on Bitcoin was a good idea, then Satoshi Nakamoto would have come out to promote it.
1934  Economy / Economics / Re: The dow will hit 30k before it falls below 10k again. on: November 04, 2014, 03:55:25 AM
Yeah, this is a random unsupported post. Why would the DOW do this?
Unsupported because stock markets never crash?
1935  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 04, 2014, 03:51:57 AM
i know that.  i never claimed that a sidecoin needed to be exchanged for BTC.  those factors don't change my argument at all, that being Bitcoin miners will be encouraged to MM initially and defect eventually given a successful SC as i have defined it.

to be honest I don't see it.

from the quote you posted I understand that a sidechain could contain different units, some that are pegged 1:1 with BTC and others that have a deterministic, floating exchange rate.

if that is the case, then I don't see the use case for such a scheme. if one wants to use the feature on such a sidechain then he would want to use the unit which carries a 1:1 peg and not the sidecoin. if, for any reason, the amount of available 1:1 units on that sidechain are limited then someone will clone the sidechain and remove the cap.

sidecoins create no incentive for the user, only additional risk.

if they have the choice between two sidechains promoting the same feature, one using a sidecoin and the other a 1:1 2wp, then the 2wp wins every time
Exactly. A state would choose a sidecoin as (dare I say) cryptofiat. They would exchange for BTC at the border.
1936  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 03, 2014, 04:35:40 PM
Regarding point 2. - how big did you think Bitcoin could scale? - after a SC has more fiat value assuming thirs fiat is interchangeable for real wealth not just zim$, at this time the side chain can scale to bigger than Bitcoin and via the arb. If we are thinking things like Bitcoin will have a market cap of gold in a couple of years, this value must come from an investment into Bitcoin.  With a SC token one could investing in the side chain and grow that overtime if one intended to invest over $4 billion there would be nothing left on the Bitcoin blockchain, and the SC would be the master chain.

How many do you need to repeat this.

symetric 2-way-peg (you are free to move in and out 1:1 conversion rate)

1. move BTC into SC and create more scBTC
2. sell scBTC -> extract fiat
3. buy more cheap BTC
4. goto 1


edit:
if SC has all bitcoins then SC is better coin.
If that is true, then the reverse is true


Quote
How many do you need to repeat this.

symetric 2-way-peg (you are free to move in and out 1:1 conversion rate)


1. move scBTC into MC and create more BTC
2. sell BTC -> extract fiat
3. buy more cheap scBTC
4. goto 1


edit:
if MC has all bitcoins then MC is better coin.
1937  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Pegged vs. Destructive Side Chains on: November 03, 2014, 12:41:25 PM
...
Pegged Chain Cons:

    1. Less fees for Bitcoin miners unless merge mined.
I'm not so sure of this.  Less fees perhaps by count, but they could be much higher.  This is particularly true if group aggregation happens whereby a real Bitcoin transaction represents underlying activities of multiple parties on the sidechain because, of course, each party can pay a very tiny fraction but it could add up to a lot.  Even if I do need to take a hit for a personal transfer of backing to or from a sidechain, it's something I would do irregularly so I'm even less bothered by paying a relatively healthy fee.

I could see that if they use the sendmany command or some multisig scheme. Perhaps raising the 1 meg blocksize cap will encourage acceptance of more outputs and larger fees.

    3. Bitcoin becomes a reserve currency.
I personally seen nothing whatsoever wrong with this.  Among other things, it maps to the native latency of the Bitcoin solution thus provoking less incentive to try to change this aspect of it.  Changing this is tricky because it is relatively fundamental.  I believe that this 'batch mode' aspect of Bitcoin's function could have very great utility if the solution ever comes under dedicated state sponsored attack.

I suppose I should have asterisked more. I would actually prefer if Bitcoin became a reserve currency in most jurisdictions. It would be a better store of value and be more portable than a local derivative asset.

I've been thinking about this awhile. It's the whole dynamic functioning of a peg versus a one shot static relationship with Bitcoin that has me so intrigued. I hope the altcoin folks are flexible enough to adapt their coins to take advantage of Bitcoin's additional security. I'm sure if there were any premined altcoins that used proof of burn, they realize they were a little ahead of the game as long as they can sell them. Perhaps even Proof of Stake is adequate security for a destructive chain.
1938  Economy / Speculation / Re: I'm All In - Sold My House! on: November 03, 2014, 12:09:42 PM
At least he had a house to sell. Most of the trolls here still live in their mother's basement.
1939  Economy / Speculation / Re: So how much have you lost this year by investing in Bitcoin? on: November 03, 2014, 09:01:42 AM
Considering bitcoin was $740 on 01/01/14

and today is: $340



http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/BASE/

if you see this and your not in gold/bitcoin you are a naive fool and deserve whats coming.
enjoy your printable papers with pictures of dead presidents on them, i hope you can burn them to keep warm in winter.

I'm in a house, Robert Paulson, a house bought with worthless USD.
It's heated by an oil furnace, a distillate of the stuff that's priced in USD.  More convenient and economical than burning $$$.
I'm surrounded by jackbooted gubermint thugs, who keep me safe from you armchair revolutionaries.
For providing this service, these terrorizing thugs get paid in USD, by an evol gubermint that rules through terror and extortion.
And jackbooted thugs.

Have fun keepin' warm by burning Bitcoin ...OWAIT, u can't even burn Bitcoin Cheesy
Oh well, spring is right around the corner! Smiley


You obviously don't know how much heat a miner produce...
In fact, the more efficient miners become, the better they will be for heating your home. Soon mining gear companies will build water heater and steam plumbing interfaces because they will be profitable.
1940  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Foundation to repair relationship with community on: November 03, 2014, 07:57:48 AM
Here's why I think TBF has been less than successful and how it can be improved:

A Bitcoin Technical Organization is not like IEEE, EFF, or Linux Foundation. It's also not like a for-profit corporation. It is a Think Tank. There are too many political and economic factors to consider and address. As a Think Tank, it must focus on projects that meet at least a general mission statement. Bitcoin itself is not a political statement because it is simply math. While some of it's properties can be argued to support some political agendas, Bitcoin itself has no political power whatsoever. It is a tool that can be used equally by any political entity simply by building clients that reflect the desired qualities. Bitcoin can be anonymous or it can be completely verified, depending on the infrastructure you develop for it. Bitcoin is what you want it to be.

A Bitcoin Think Tank will find solutions for developers that provide incentives. That means even central banks that want solutions and have the means, should be given the opportunity to have their needs addressed by the expertise a Bitcoin Think Tank can provide.

Up until now, these efforts have created a schism between developers over loyalties to financiers or ideologies. Developers have to put aside their differences and understand that we all benefit from thinking as a One Blockchain, than multiple competing chains. It was the evolution of Bitcoin 2.0 technologies that made us realize we could all use the same programming language and operating system, yet run completely different applications. Anyone that contributes to open source projects will benefit from new ideas flowing from the greatest minds in financial theory.

I propose that several Bitcoin Think Tanks are organized with whatever ideologies their leadership wants to offer. After all, volunteer organizations are only as good as the people that roll up their sleeves and work. They don't need elections. They don't need consensus. They offer results or they fail. Their financial futures can be dictated by particular interests, but somehow I don't think our best and brightest are all that motivated simply by money. This is a revolution. We need Generals, not Politicians. This isn't a popularity contest. If you believe in what we are doing and have invested in ourselves, then we all have not only the incentives, but also the moral compass to create the best new financial system possible.

To the Central Banks:
You have the opportunity to join us or die. If you join us, you can have access to the most powerful and efficient capital aggregation tools imaginable, and they can be designed to optimize your infrastructure. Bitcoin and its derivatives can offer unparalleled security, privacy, and flexibility to meet with your customers needs and compliance standards.

To the Venture Capitalist:
You have the opportunity to invest in the Next Big Thing and hold a stake in your investment simply by owning Bitcoins. Even if you invest in a project and somehow it fails, you still benefit from the successes of others.

To the People:
You have the opportunity to educate yourselves about the greatest business and career opportunities of a lifetime. Take advantage of learning about these technologies and become a member of these fine educational organizations.
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