As we head into the last quarter of 2018 some dynamics:
1) All that pent up video card demand will eat up lots of those 1070/1080s that were used "temporarily" for ETH - I don't see these cards hitting rock bottom too quickly
2) Those poor 1060 3GB cards - man those are soon trash other than for mid level gamers (unless you're mining in Win 7). Hopefully nVidia tries to rip us a new one on RTX equivalent. I've populated as many game rigs as I could with 1060s - need to get rid of the last few stragglers. Even 144Hz monitors can't help support the price because anybody guying GSYNC is going to get at least a 1070.
3) This season the 144Hz craze (you can see it from all the posts in Reddit BAPC) will help eat up some of those RX580s. Vegas still have a home in Monero. If you haven't dumped your RX470/480s yet you've got some insane power rates.
4) RAM and SSD prices are dropping so people will build rigs for 4K systems. Console 4k is meh. Looking at the RTX pricing nVidia is not enticing people to buy new cards.
Plan you farm decommission appropriately. I made money as the market went up, and sold my gear at top prices - I'm still HODLing to pick up the coins. ETH dumping velocity from ICO addresses is still relevant.
here is a small rig 2 vegas and a threadripper https://www.nicehash.com/miner/1JdC6Xg3ajT3rge3FgPNSYYFpmf53VbtjeProfitability0.0004 BTC/day 2.92 USD/day Efficiency 100.00% note 2.92 usd and gear burns 550 watts which is 13.2 k-watts I don't push it it is pretty quiet. 13.2 kwatts at 10 cents is 1.32 a day which means 1.60 profit a day x 365 = 584 paid back each year and gear has 3 years of warranties. also for 6 months of the year it is free heating. Now does it mean I will have 70 gpus this winter no I will be under 20. So last year OCT NOV DEC and JAN 2018 were wonderful. This year not so much. Agreed Vegas have done quite well mostly because fluffy gives a rats ass unlike most of the other self serving devs bought off by ASIC money. This is another example of why it's good to diversify your cards if you're building a farm. Jumping all in on 1080s for Equihash or RX 470s for ETH may seem good at the time but you're not able to ride out long dips like this. yeah I sold off most of my cards and it's a lot easier to manage 20 cards instead of 500. I remember back when BTC was 13TH/s - I was a meaningful part of the network lol. |
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How this guy scammed in 2018 is beyond me - this board has tons of posts and warnings about all the scams. There should have been an escrow set up to begin with.
There's no point in contacting local police. It took 2 years to get ahold of Trendon Shavers and he was the biggest scammer ever short of Mt Gox siphon.
Hopefully people only lost disposable money.
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Seems there are many who believe in the technology and are just mining at a loss just to get some BTC.
You say mining at loss? only idiots do that cause it was explained countless of times that doing that you are at double loss, anyway, i do believe there are idiots out there but not as many as you trolls think, 70% of total eth hashrate are asics and asics never mine at loss where gpus is not totally negative at 0.10 per kw, whereas gpus give $0.15 per 30 mhs on eth, asics like the f3, given the same $0.15 to asics + another $0.20 the electricity they save then we can come up with $0.35 per 30 mhs, so each 1.5 ghs f3 give around 20 usd, without any hard work whatsoever, to carry on till market recovers. The only ones still earning money here are asic manufactures, whereas gpu miners get $0.15 per gpu, asics miners like bitman f3 are earning 20 usd per asic, not bad if you ask me and like i said before this crash is due to that, bitmain was earning 100 usd per eth asic, not to mention the other asics which were making much more money, asics destroyed everything again, if there were no asics then eth right now would be around 3k usd minimum. No you fail to see long term mining ie year after year after year has completely different tax laws then buy and hold. You have lots of good info but sometime you don't know what you are talkng about. I will mine at a loss for August and Sept. At that point I will start more reduction of mining. I already know what I am willing to lose from August to December this year. About 1k So far I lost 300 in August. The 1k simply will reduce my early year profits and reduce my tax bill. While buying 4k in coins does zero to help tax bills and tax planing. This is USA law I know many places have different laws. But for me to mine and hold the coins say spend 4k on power to earn 3k in coins Gives me more tax benefits then to buy 4k in coins and hold them. Mining and holding the 4k allows me a 4k power cost for taxes this year. Since taxes are 33% 4 k power cost saves me 1333 which makes up for the 1k lost 4k power- 3 k coins - 1 k loss the cost basis for the 3k in coins will be zero when I sell So I gain 333 this year and when I sell in later years I will pay more tax. buying 4k and holding does zero. this year. when I sell cost basis is 4k Buying and holding the 4k spent allows me no power cost for taxes this year. So I gain zero this year and when I sell in later year I will pay less tax. This is a big reason for mining at a loss and you leave it out. So don't. This gives me a possible 1 to 2 years of loss without issues for tax benefits to be taken now. Phil I think you are focusing on a very important point that I left out for the sake of a shorter video. Electric write off and the way those expenses play into taxes. Does anyone work with any tax professionals that tote themselves as experts with cryptocurrency. I’d love to see them weigh in I've re-read Phil's post about 5 times and it honestly doesn't make much sense (literally and financially). Yes, spending on electricity will lower your tax liability on what you mined. But only to the tune of 33% (or insert your tax rate here). Maybe I have a different definition of mining at a loss, but I define it as spending more on mining than what you are earning, I.E. The money you spent could have instead been spent on buying the coins outright with the results of more coins. Or in other terms, instead of pumping $10 in the claw machine to win the stuffed animal, you could have bought 2 stuffed animals for $10. If you are mining, then you pay taxes on everything you mine. But if you mine and hold, and the currency goes up, then you are still paying capital gains taxes, no different than buying it outright. A big issue with this (which is a whole other debacle) is that the tax situation is flawed which I won't completely open that can of worms right now . . AND ALSO the new 25% tariffs are insane, like the recent scammy 20k asic miner co zeon would carry a tariff of $5000 . . Hurting the case for mining even further  Yeah most miners don't understand business. Except when starting, most large purchases have to be depreciated off a schedule (ie over several years). Section 179. This is true for cars, XRay equipment, video cards (I've written off all 3). Sometimes the IRS will give you a tax cupcake like being able to write off 10K of depreciation from a car the very day you buy it, but after that it falls on a curve (why buying was better for me than leasing). Most ASIC miners are trash after about 8 months - I can't even fathom trying to write them off on a schedule over 7 years. Unless you're running a big farm or you really want to burn your personal tax liability mining under a business just is not worth it. |
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As we head into the last quarter of 2018 some dynamics:
1) All that pent up video card demand will eat up lots of those 1070/1080s that were used "temporarily" for ETH - I don't see these cards hitting rock bottom too quickly
2) Those poor 1060 3GB cards - man those are soon trash other than for mid level gamers (unless you're mining in Win 7). Hopefully nVidia tries to rip us a new one on RTX equivalent. I've populated as many game rigs as I could with 1060s - need to get rid of the last few stragglers. Even 144Hz monitors can't help support the price because anybody guying GSYNC is going to get at least a 1070.
3) This season the 144Hz craze (you can see it from all the posts in Reddit BAPC) will help eat up some of those RX580s. Vegas still have a home in Monero. If you haven't dumped your RX470/480s yet you've got some insane power rates.
4) RAM and SSD prices are dropping so people will build rigs for 4K systems. Console 4k is meh. Looking at the RTX pricing nVidia is not enticing people to buy new cards.
Plan you farm decommission appropriately. I made money as the market went up, and sold my gear at top prices - I'm still HODLing to pick up the coins. ETH dumping velocity from ICO addresses is still relevant.
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Oh the crying we'll hear if ETH goes to 1 per block. Some people can't break even now. Imagine when revenue drops 65%. At least with BTC halving you knew it was coming years in advance and could approximate arrival. This ETH uncertainty would have the trollbox livid  |
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I am sure that the news is not so bad, just the time of mining video cards has passed, now everyone is buying ASIC miners, and this is progress. Switching from GPUs and mining at home in a decentralized fashion to putting ASICs into data centers is progress?  Is your first name Jihan? |
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Remember all those new users who joined last year and we told them to hold off on mining and instead buy coins if they wanted to take risks - well failure to head that advice now I see a lot of posts of new users cursing at crypto.
I know the crypto world is 10x as fast as the fiat world as far as growth and volatility, but what sensible person thought ETH would sustain $5k and BTC would hit $100k so that rigs could pay themselves off in a month. It's almost as bad as the housing bubble.
Sit still, remain calm, turn off the miner (if you're paying over 10 cents/KWH), and see where we are in 6 months. There will be no arise chikun moon rockets under the Christmas tree this year (my opinion anyway). Hopefully 2019 more reasonable ICOs and possibly ETH POS (with corresponding price increase) will make this endeavor worthwhile.
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absolutely agree with Metroid and DrG
my 12 cards (around 376.8mh/s ETH) would be giving me now about 14$ per month profit after electricity costs. And this is only after having changed my price x KWh to the slowest in my hole country for my purpose.
Is it worth to continue mining for 14$??. This is not the question. the question is "DO I BELIEVE THAT ETH WILL RECOVER??". the answer for me is NO.
If you think ETH will increase in price overtime, you´ll probably recover your bills (payed from your packet). So, that's why even this situation recommends TO STOP MINING RIGHT NOW, the network hashrate is still increasing.
People believe in ETH and that it's price will pump. There is NO ACTUAL REASON TO BELIEVE THAT, rather than "yolo". BTW yolo, is a part of a Spanish phrase: Porque "yo lo" valgo (which means, because i deserve it).
are we debating if you have to stop mining and buy the coins, or just mine?? Well, Mining i get around 0.75 ETH per month, with a cost of around 150$ per month in electricity. So, even investing 150$ to buy ETH, i would still not be getting the same amount as mining. If i want the coins, i'm better off mining than buying.
But my problem is that I DON'T BELIEVE IN ETH ANYMORE. Specially having known that yesterday the DEVS, talked about future difficulty bomb, and profit reduction per block from 3 to probably 2 or even 1. EIP-858 would reduce block rewards to 1 ETH per block, EIP-1234 would reduce block rewards to 2 ETH, while EIP-1295 would keep rewards to 3 ETH.
Constantinople Hard-fork will be launched in october (so every 8 months a fork, devs have said). It's not officially announced, but it's almost done that with this latest fork, they will apply EIP 1234, so 2ETH per block instead of 3. If there is no pump in price, ETH will definetely be a NO GO FOR MINERS AT THAT POINT.
ohh, btw, some stupid people said that i had lost money because i bought cards at high prices. Well, in fact, all of my RX 570 and 580 were bought at 200 to 250€ brand new, so way lower than highest prices, and even below msrp prices at launch.
My main idea of mining was to get a monthly profit of about 300€ (even if you don't believe me, i was certain ETH would not be able to keep it's prices, and predicted a drop of around 25% to 35% in the price and i accepted that situation). i never thought it was going to be an 80% as it is now. Noone expected that. Not to that extent. The idea was to sell coins after having mined them, pay electricity and enjoy the bonus.
The drop in prices has forced all of us to pay our bills from our pocket, and get nothing monthly, and just hope for a day to come that the situation gets better. That is not happening and the future is very black for crypto. i decided not to invest more money, because i have terrible doubts to get the money back.
If you want to burn your money on a camp fire, you are entitled to do it. But don't tell the others what to do, specially if the situation is the worst ever lived by crypto and you have no clue of what will happen the next year. I bet this will crash. i will hold my ETH already mined and go till the end with it with loses. But i will not put more money in this shitty and manipulated market .
Well just chalk it up as a learning experience. But I will tell you this. I have been there. I watched BTC go from $33 down to $2 and proudhon kept spouting off everyday that BTC was going to die. When BTC recovered to $5 I sold off a lot thinking wow, I just saw a 2.5x increase from $2 - biggest mistake ever. Just sit on your holdings. Enjoy your life. Try not to struggle with bills (hopefully you didn't go into debt to pay for the miners which everybody was warned not to do). If you can mine at a profit and don't mind the heat/noise go ahead. Having been in this circus for 7 years and seen multiple boom/bust cycles - I knew I had to dump most of my hardware earlier this year. I still have a few (70 card farm) but I will use my assets to buy back coins I like once I feel most of the dumping cycle is completed. I think those ICOs are still dumping their ETH looking at the wallet movements. Remember, don't get emotional with this. Pretend it's like buying Walmart or Revlon stock - can't really get too excited doing that lol. Get excited about what crypto can do to make this world better. |
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Once you have coins in hand you know exactly what your break even point is - the price at which you bought in at plus exchange fees. People who bought ETH last year at $300 should have sensibly sold some (if not all) at $1200 to $1500. Once simple click would have resulted in 5x fiat profit, and should they like - they could always rebuy the ETH now and get 5x as much.
Of course this is all hindsight - but it does show the dichotomy - the strengths and weaknesses of both. If you had lots of capitol and were willing to take 100% loss people should have bought coins and not mining eq. If they wanted to just put 1 foot in the crypto ocean - they build rigs.
Here's hindsight - ETH had fallen all the way to $10, even $7 during last January when DASH starting during it's insane rise. Nobody wanted ETH (well except the believers - Polo trollbox chat showed this). If you bought then you would be up 30x from just holding 6 months longer than somebody buying in July. That's why it makes sense to look at the big picture.
ETH is the perfect of example of a coin that you shouldn't have mined (even though I did). If you bought the coin at launch is was sub 1 penny. You could never mine as much ETH with a single RX 480 going full tilt to today as if you had spent all the money on the coin at ICO.
So - if you expect the coin to fail mine it. If you expect it to succeed buy it (at least well timed buys - doesn't take a genius to not buy ETH at 1500 or BTC at 20K+).
Miners really should spend time reading the speculation and investing parts of this forum. Sticking your head into the mining forums 12 hours a day seeing if they can eek out 1 more sol out of 1060 by changing drivers or tweaking with settings are missing the forest through the trees.
Buying eth at ICO is the best case scenario. But if you missed the ICO? what then? A 200 $ rx480 bought in the summer of 2016 has mined a shitload of eth and on top of that it gives you other opportunities. In the end it comes down to individual preferences, some people mine other people trade. OK, forget ICO. Let's pick Jan 1st 2017. You could have bought about 30 ETH for the price of a RX 480. Even with cheap 0.05cent power you still come out ahead by buying because ETH was successful. Its fiat price accelerated faster than miner could accumulate it. You would need to look at a coin like LTC which mooned in 2014, crashed severely, then mooned again, then crashed again - there the fiat gains are less than what would one would have accrued from mining. But the whole ASIC thing throws monkey wrenches into the prediction. Basically you would need to mine a coin that other people have given up on or had not taken interest in for you to come out ahead in the long run. In narrow windows like 3 months or 6 months it can go either way. |
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I read that post that you're referring to. The problem is that you are either denying or not acknowledging the lost of opportunity. Mining is a hedge against a coin failing. Essentially you can say that can sell the equipment (well GPUs anyway) for nearly purchase price in the event of a coin failing. On the contrarian position - somebody who buys the coin doesn't have to sit there everyday to make sure stupid Win 10 update hasn't taken a miner offline or that the pool you're mining at is skimming of the top or even worse running away with your crypto. The person who bought it can spend the time saved earning more money to pay for the gamble or has the chance to exit quickly if they need to.
Once you have coins in hand you know exactly what your break even point is - the price at which you bought in at plus exchange fees. People who bought ETH last year at $300 should have sensibly sold some (if not all) at $1200 to $1500. Once simple click would have resulted in 5x fiat profit, and should they like - they could always rebuy the ETH now and get 5x as much.
Of course this is all hindsight - but it does show the dichotomy - the strengths and weaknesses of both. If you had lots of capitol and were willing to take 100% loss people should have bought coins and not mining eq. If they wanted to just put 1 foot in the crypto ocean - they build rigs.
Here's hindsight - ETH had fallen all the way to $10, even $7 during last January when DASH starting during it's insane rise. Nobody wanted ETH (well except the believers - Polo trollbox chat showed this). If you bought then you would be up 30x from just holding 6 months longer than somebody buying in July. That's why it makes sense to look at the big picture.
ETH is the perfect of example of a coin that you shouldn't have mined (even though I did). If you bought the coin at launch is was sub 1 penny. You could never mine as much ETH with a single RX 480 going full tilt to today as if you had spent all the money on the coin at ICO.
So - if you expect the coin to fail mine it. If you expect it to succeed buy it (at least well timed buys - doesn't take a genius to not buy ETH at 1500 or BTC at 20K+).
Miners really should spend time reading the speculation and investing parts of this forum. Sticking your head into the mining forums 12 hours a day seeing if they can eek out 1 more sol out of 1060 by changing drivers or tweaking with settings are missing the forest through the trees.
Bitcoin sat dead after hitting $1200 for 4 years with most of the world saying it was dead. It dropped from $1200 to $100. With all that idiotic ICO money thrown at scams last year, the ETH demand is just going to keep going down - it's a race to the bottom.... until some major trigger.
Buying coins vs buying hardware is a debate as old as the moon. I have never bought a single coin with my money. I only bought hardware. Sure, would I have bought ETH at 20$ instead of an entire rig that, before the ice-age, would have brought in like 0.5 ETH a day, I'd still be up 1000% today. But what you are forgetting in you analysis, is that in contrary to coins/tokens, hardware like GPU is something tangible. People are much more likely to be ok to fork out 300$ for a GPU they can hold in their hands than some coins they can never actually touch or hold. you can't deny that cryptos, all of them, are still a very risky venture. Even ETH at 200$ is still risky. Hardware on the other hand has a value depreciation you can estimate pretty easily over a period of time. Hell I'm sure I could sell mine easily for a 100$ today while they will have paid for themselves numerous times. Also not everyone is a trader and not everyone has a capacity to evaluate a good entry position (or exit position). Trading is not idiot-proof, far from that. I'm not forgetting it in my analysis. Read the previous post I made. I said if a person enjoys watching the fans spin and is genuinely entertained by mining well then more power to him/her. You can't buy happiness, but you can buy enjoyment by subsidizing bad mining practices  I'm not here to take away anybody's enjoyment, but if you are in mining to make money it does not make sense to mine during a loss period. Again please refer to my previous post where I said mining equipment is used a hedge against a coin's failure. You should mine coins that you think will fail. The ones you genuinely believe in you should buy because you're not going to let some market manipulation dissuade you from being part of it. I've been mining since 2011. I'm old as dirt compared to most of you. I once had a farm that approached 0.5% of the BTC network when BTC was "dying". I know how much fun and headache mining can be. BUT... almost every mistake I've made so far can be attributed to emotional reactions and deviating from my plan I set forth. Crypto miners need to think with their heads and not their hearts for maximal profits. |
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If you spent $5 on electricity but only get $3 of XMR you're losing $2 of XMR you could have bought on an exchange. That's is completely irrespective of owning a miner or not.
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If your goal is to make fiat money from crypto conversion, then it never makes sense to mine at a loss. NEVER.
I see your point and it is logically valid. Howerver, mining is almost never irrespective of owning a miner or not. It does make sense to simply buy from an exchange, but you may not be considering the factor that people who already have a miner, are already too invested to accept that they have lost. People who are mining at a loss are probably still in denial or are too lazy or passive to realize that they need to sell their equipment. I made a long post in another thread somewhere a year ago about how mining only pays off in the long run (ie 2-5 year span) if the coin is expected to be a failure. If you expect the coin to succeed - you should always buy the coin outright at the start. Buying the coin gives you the opportunity to sell in the event that you need the money (like lots of noobs panicking here because they put liens on their cars or houses to pay for mining equipment). You also tend to get more coins that had you mined. People who already have a miner - well owning a miner doesn't mean you should compound your mistake by mining at a loss. Again these idiots lack critical thinking skills. They think by not using the miner they're letting the miner go to waste. But again, refer the the example I gave - why only get $3 of coin with $5 of electricity. Only reason would be to support the coin or for people who can't buy off an exchange or people who want to hide their coins. People sitting on underwater hardware need to decide whether to sell or hold onto the hardware. If they sell they can buy the coins with the proceeds. If they sit on the hardware maybe they can use it again later when mining is profitable. That's the only choice. It never makes sense to mine at a loss to fiat. But people chasing money out of greed (instead of a desire to improve themselves through learning and the experience of mining) will do what all the other sheep do and keep on mining. I am a physician and I see everyday the stupid stuff humans do to their body after being told repeatedly not to do destructive behavior. I sold my Antminer S3s a few years back after I actually made more in BTC than the miners costs at the time of purchase (yeah Bitmain doesn't do that anymore - that's why they are pretty much crooks in my book). I might have only got a hundred for each one, but I bought BTC with those proceeds and got more BTC than the person mining it could ever mine to this day. Sure the person who bought them saw BTC rise to $22k from the $150 or so BTC was back then and he did well - but I did much better by putting my money into the coins. If you have a decent job I would just try to focus on selling all unnecessary "junk" or working overtime and just buying the coin you want. I think prices will continue to go down or sideways for another year - this is 2014 all over again. But you can't time the market unless you make the market like Roger Ver. It is all about making the right decisions. I did a detail calculation few comments ago that it was actually more profitable to buy mining rig year ago then buy eth and hodl , you would mined 10 eth in one year with one mining rig 3k worth, where is you have bought it at this stage you would actually lost. Ofcourse if you keep mining and crypto never recovers you would be in loos, same as if you buy coin now every day if your rig is switched off. So think there is no point of switching off if you want to accumulate more coins. Because if you have electricity at decent price under 10c per KWH , coin cannot go much under production cost, none wants to sell their coins at loos. Only bunch of scared noobs. If no miner sells coins there is no inflation. Its simple ecanomics , now there is demand less then there is supply. If the supply decreases , price starts to grow. I read that post that you're referring to. The problem is that you are either denying or not acknowledging the lost of opportunity. Mining is a hedge against a coin failing. Essentially you can say that can sell the equipment (well GPUs anyway) for nearly purchase price in the event of a coin failing. On the contrarian position - somebody who buys the coin doesn't have to sit there everyday to make sure stupid Win 10 update hasn't taken a miner offline or that the pool you're mining at is skimming of the top or even worse running away with your crypto. The person who bought it can spend the time saved earning more money to pay for the gamble or has the chance to exit quickly if they need to. Once you have coins in hand you know exactly what your break even point is - the price at which you bought in at plus exchange fees. People who bought ETH last year at $300 should have sensibly sold some (if not all) at $1200 to $1500. Once simple click would have resulted in 5x fiat profit, and should they like - they could always rebuy the ETH now and get 5x as much. Of course this is all hindsight - but it does show the dichotomy - the strengths and weaknesses of both. If you had lots of capitol and were willing to take 100% loss people should have bought coins and not mining eq. If they wanted to just put 1 foot in the crypto ocean - they build rigs. Here's hindsight - ETH had fallen all the way to $10, even $7 during last January when DASH starting during it's insane rise. Nobody wanted ETH (well except the believers - Polo trollbox chat showed this). If you bought then you would be up 30x from just holding 6 months longer than somebody buying in July. That's why it makes sense to look at the big picture. ETH is the perfect of example of a coin that you shouldn't have mined (even though I did). If you bought the coin at launch is was sub 1 penny. You could never mine as much ETH with a single RX 480 going full tilt to today as if you had spent all the money on the coin at ICO. So - if you expect the coin to fail mine it. If you expect it to succeed buy it (at least well timed buys - doesn't take a genius to not buy ETH at 1500 or BTC at 20K+). Miners really should spend time reading the speculation and investing parts of this forum. Sticking your head into the mining forums 12 hours a day seeing if they can eek out 1 more sol out of 1060 by changing drivers or tweaking with settings are missing the forest through the trees. Bitcoin sat dead after hitting $1200 for 4 years with most of the world saying it was dead. It dropped from $1200 to $100. With all that idiotic ICO money thrown at scams last year, the ETH demand is just going to keep going down - it's a race to the bottom.... until some major trigger. |
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If you spent $5 on electricity but only get $3 of XMR you're losing $2 of XMR you could have bought on an exchange. That's is completely irrespective of owning a miner or not.
...
If your goal is to make fiat money from crypto conversion, then it never makes sense to mine at a loss. NEVER.
I see your point and it is logically valid. Howerver, mining is almost never irrespective of owning a miner or not. It does make sense to simply buy from an exchange, but you may not be considering the factor that people who already have a miner, are already too invested to accept that they have lost. People who are mining at a loss are probably still in denial or are too lazy or passive to realize that they need to sell their equipment. I made a long post in another thread somewhere a year ago about how mining only pays off in the long run (ie 2-5 year span) if the coin is expected to be a failure. If you expect the coin to succeed - you should always buy the coin outright at the start. Buying the coin gives you the opportunity to sell in the event that you need the money (like lots of noobs panicking here because they put liens on their cars or houses to pay for mining equipment). You also tend to get more coins that had you mined. People who already have a miner - well owning a miner doesn't mean you should compound your mistake by mining at a loss. Again these idiots lack critical thinking skills. They think by not using the miner they're letting the miner go to waste. But again, refer the the example I gave - why only get $3 of coin with $5 of electricity. Only reason would be to support the coin or for people who can't buy off an exchange or people who want to hide their coins. People sitting on underwater hardware need to decide whether to sell or hold onto the hardware. If they sell they can buy the coins with the proceeds. If they sit on the hardware maybe they can use it again later when mining is profitable. That's the only choice. It never makes sense to mine at a loss to fiat. But people chasing money out of greed (instead of a desire to improve themselves through learning and the experience of mining) will do what all the other sheep do and keep on mining. I am a physician and I see everyday the stupid stuff humans do to their body after being told repeatedly not to do destructive behavior. I sold my Antminer S3s a few years back after I actually made more in BTC than the miners costs at the time of purchase (yeah Bitmain doesn't do that anymore - that's why they are pretty much crooks in my book). I might have only got a hundred for each one, but I bought BTC with those proceeds and got more BTC than the person mining it could ever mine to this day. Sure the person who bought them saw BTC rise to $22k from the $150 or so BTC was back then and he did well - but I did much better by putting my money into the coins. If you have a decent job I would just try to focus on selling all unnecessary "junk" or working overtime and just buying the coin you want. I think prices will continue to go down or sideways for another year - this is 2014 all over again. But you can't time the market unless you make the market like Roger Ver. |
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Remember when BTC went to $1300 it pulled back to $100 and stayed in the $100 to $200 range for almost a year.
Ethereum, after hitting the same $1300 price can easily follow the same patter, albeit the time period can be compressed or expanded. I have plenty, but wouldn't mind picking up some more near the $100 mark. At $280 I'm not touching it.
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Haha what a sad year for nVidia. Well, here's hoping I don't get gouged too much on a mobile GPU - I've been sitting on my almost 5 year old gaming laptop and had to really control myself and not buy a laptop with a GTX 1060 or 1070. If nVidia doesn't behave even with mobile RTX pricing I'm going to jump to a laptop with Vega when 7nm mobile comes out next year. In the mean time I've been having LAN parties at my house and each of my 6 machines has SLI or crossfire high end cards stolen from my mining rigs Who knew these video cards could be used to play games!?! |
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See, you just can't fix stupid when people are so greedy they can't even think straight. If your only goal is to make money (assuming fiat conversion is endpoint) then getting as much coin as possible is the method. If you're mining at a loss then you are actually losing coins.
If you spent $5 on electricity but only get $3 of XMR you're losing $2 of XMR you could have bought on an exchange. That's is completely irrespective of owning a miner or not.
People - sit down with an actual piece of paper and draw it out with pictures if you have to.
Now, if the sheer joy of watching a miner spin fans and make noise excites you more than the mining loss then by all means mine away.
If your goal is to make fiat money from crypto conversion, then it never makes sense to mine at a loss. NEVER.
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Just bumping this up because I see a lot of newbies talking about cloud mining to get around mining at a loss.
Cloud mining.... don't. Just don't.
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oh very hard question, some miner believe to tomorow days and can mine in non profitable points when electricity cost higher then income
Tomorrow days? You mean a brighter future? Yeah that's fine, I think most crypto enthusiasts do expect a resurgence. The thing that is idiotic - why would you spend $5 of electricity mining to effectively buy $3 of coin everyday with a mining rig. Stop the miner and spend the $5 to buy $5 of coin on an exchange. The only reason to mine at a loss are: -lack of access to exchange -privacy (if you're mining your own blocks they are harder to trace) -support the network through decentralization |
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I went through the BTC crash in 2011, through the altcoin crash of 2014. This cycle will likely be shorter due to 100x increase in the number of participants but I don't see the downtrend reversing until well into 2019. For people mining at a fiat loss - I just shake my head. Either these people have no access to exchanges (which seems almost impossible in this day and age) or they're just plain stupid. I would guess the later looking at ETH difficulty still hanging up there In retrospect, it feels good knowing I told so many people to toss their cards earlier this year for fiat. Now they can just sit back and pick up whatever crypto they want at anywhere from 30 to 99% percent less without having to have dealt with heat and noise for 8 months lol. You can make money in this downturn, provided you planned well when people went full on stupid during the run-up. Eww, did I just agree with Metroid lol |
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I've been around since 2013, and in my opinion mining profits are CRAZY HIGH at the moment.
About a year ago, you could pull in ~$1 per day with an RX 470. And now you are pulling in about triple that amount.
These types of profitability are unheard of and won't last long term.
Back in Dec 2014, an R9 280X (which was equivalent to a 1070 today) was making like $0.25/day. That's what I consider terrible earnings.
Also you guys are spoiled when it comes to power consumption. Most GPUs these days use what? A little over 100 Watts or so.
Back in the Litecoin days a R9 280X used 350 Watts. Yes 350 Watts from the wall.
If you had been mining ETH in 2015 when they were $1 each, that would be $250 per card per day now. But if you had taken the money from selling that card and just bought ETH you would have had at least 15000 ETH from just that one card assuming $150 for the 280x. This is why why you only come out ahead in mining when the coin fails to take off - hence it's a hedge against a coins success. Sadly in hindsight your would have been better buying any of the top 20 coins early last year instead of mining. I have a farm and mine but only with coins I expect to fail. The coins I think will go up I just buy with fiat. At what point was ETH $0.01 each to where you can buy 15000 with $150? Please elaborate your logic on mining coins. ICO price was 0.8 cents, less than a penny per ETH. It was under 10 cents for quite some time. Even beginning of last year it was under $7. No $200 card bought last January would have been able to mine 25 ETH. If you truly believe in a coin, buy it with fiat if you can. For some people laws restrict them from buying, or perhaps they want the anonymity of mining their own pure blocks, or they just want to support decentralization by mining - but for straight up profit nothing beats buying. How many BTC could you have bought when GPU mining came out in 2011 vs how many could you have mined with a 5870 |
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I've been around since 2013, and in my opinion mining profits are CRAZY HIGH at the moment.
About a year ago, you could pull in ~$1 per day with an RX 470. And now you are pulling in about triple that amount.
These types of profitability are unheard of and won't last long term.
Back in Dec 2014, an R9 280X (which was equivalent to a 1070 today) was making like $0.25/day. That's what I consider terrible earnings.
Also you guys are spoiled when it comes to power consumption. Most GPUs these days use what? A little over 100 Watts or so.
Back in the Litecoin days a R9 280X used 350 Watts. Yes 350 Watts from the wall.
If you had been mining ETH in 2015 when they were $1 each, that would be $250 per card per day now. But if you had taken the money from selling that card and just bought ETH you would have had at least 15000 ETH from just that one card assuming $150 for the 280x. This is why why you only come out ahead in mining when the coin fails to take off - hence it's a hedge against a coins success. Sadly in hindsight your would have been better buying any of the top 20 coins early last year instead of mining. I have a farm and mine but only with coins I expect to fail. The coins I think will go up I just buy with fiat. |
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