The price drop is good to remove those speculators and consolidate the user base so that the most of them are true believers  All 30 of them. You are always posting negative statements in regards to bitcoin. May I ask why you continue to hold if you do not believe in btc?  I dont hold. I have never really held much bitcoin, just small amounts here and there. I used to buy and sell bitcoin for paypal, but was never interested in personal gain. I just wanted to promote a viable alternative to government issued fiat. I had a fairly large litecoin mining operation and have bought and sold thousands of coins, but when I realized that bitcoin was not a viable alternative to fiat and that it had no chance of mass adoption I sold off all of my mining equipment and sold or gave away the rest of my coins. This was about a year ago, I am only back on the forums now in the hopes that people are beginning to realize that bitcoin is a flop and see if they are interested in developing ways to fix it. But I think the price will have to fall much lower before people are ready to consider a different way. Most of the people here have personal gain at the heart of their motivations, I am in it for social change not personal gain. 186AfL2CiLjvdZWaHVdAz4iZLS4m69TfPE No. Transactions 628 Total Received 478.98136673 BTC Final Balance 0.00001 BTC |
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The price drop is good to remove those speculators and consolidate the user base so that the most of them are true believers All 30 of them. |
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Yeah you're not telling me anything.
Just because its decentralized doesn't mean it can't have price stability.
[snip]
To be honest I do not care what you think about bitcoin or what solutions you advocate for an ideal form of money ( http://paulgrignon.netfirms.com/MoneyasDebt/MAD2014/solution.htm , this is you right?) Bitcoin is not forced onto you and you probably do not see the advantages of an open, decentralized system where ownership of abstract units is recorded. It is an algorithmic construct and not some monetary policy. Muse all you want on how to create an ideal form of money, in the meantime technology will advance and do its own thing. It is kind of like the legal system trying to figure out how to deal with intellectual property in the digital age while p2p filesharing as a technology already exists and evolves. God damn bro, no I am not Paul Grignon. Watch money as debt. You dont know how stupid you sound and yes I support decentralized systems bitcoin isnt one. |
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The price has been falling for at least 10 months now and the reason is simple, bitcoins valuation blew up into a huge speculative bubble because idiots run around saying it as big as the internet and were all gonna be rich. The price is falling because bitcoin is tulips, .com stocks, beanie babies, baseball cards in the 90's, its all hype and it cant live up to the hype.
Another major reason is that there was fraudulent buying on MT.gox that pushed the price through the roof and people where so stupid they thought someone on the other end was actually willing to pay 1200 bucks for it.
The price will continue to fall because it already had its 15 min. of fame and no one cared. Bitcoin doesn't solve any problems for the average person.
So the price will continue down until it reaches close to the amount needed to facilitate the few trades that happen with bitcoin I would say about 22 bucks maybe much less.
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Ok, I think I understand you better now. You are more thinking of a plurality of coins issued by individuals and backed by their personal credibility. More of a credit system? I can see a role for something like that. I origionally thought you were proposing a bitcoin like coin that has a central authority to hand them out. With many such coins representing individuals, are their valued based on the demand for your credibility? So that a scammer type has little chance of finding buyers vs. a good guy. ?
I think I get it.
You get are getting much closer to getting it. The value of the coin is set by what it is redeemable for but would fluctuate against your actual ability or perceived ability to redeem them. If you over issue, your coins might trade at a discount because of the risk premium. |
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Money Power In You
E.C Riegel, Private Enterprise Money, 1944
Maybe because he was wrong in this: they can neither help nor hinder our natural right to extend credit to each other, and this is the perfect basis for a money system. You need a lot of trust to issue credit to others, or your credit is worth nothing. There are lots of people with lots of trust and trade requires trust so it is really just a matter of who to trust. |
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Money Power In You
E.C Riegel, Private Enterprise Money, 1944
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Bitcoin is not currency its a digital collectible. It is the equivalent of a digital baseball card. A lot of people around here dont see that as a problem, but if your goal is mass adoption or price stability it's a massive problem.
Your analogy makes no sense to me. If you compare bitcoin to a government backed currency whose use they enforce then yes, it is probably harder to convince someone why they should use it. Either you want massive external control and intervention (then you might get your stability and possibly adoption) or you want something decentralized and have to accept that your control options are limited. Value always lies in the eye of the beholder so although you may think your precious paper bill of legal tender from country a is worth x, it is only because the current circumstances make you (and others) believe so. Just look at extreme situations such as natural disasters etc. Suddenly your currency might be nothing more than a piece of paper, a collectible, yet that bottle of fresh water becomes a desirable trade good. Yeah you're not telling me anything. Just because its decentralized doesn't mean it can't have price stability. Two Kinds of Money 1.The Scarcity Model: A single uniform quantity in limited supply made valuable by its own scarcity. In other words, the value of this type of money depends on the supply of, and demand for, the money commodity itself. Conventional definitions of money define money only in terms of this model, a "medium of exchange". Examples are: cowries, gold and silver, fiat cash and coins, bank credit, and now, in the model's purest and most spectacularly speculative form, Bitcoin. 2. The Abundance Model. A promise of something specific from someone specific made valuable by its redemption in real production. The value of this type of money is defined by the promised redemption in goods and/or services. As such, this type of money is promises of an indefinite number of non-uniform commodities in indefinite supply and, unlike the limited quantity "coin" concept of money, the total quantity of these credits in circulation does not affect their value, because the value of a credit is defined by what its issuer will redeem it for in real goods and/or services. Examples are: business-to-business barter credits, customer rewards, travel points, discount coupons, mutual credit systems. |
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pow or pos makes no difference. Coins cant be mined into existence. That won't work. Coins need to be issued into existence from trusted parties.
I would never put a penny into some old boy network coin. They are worthless to me. The fact that anyone can compete for coins makes senses and is fair. Issuing coins is one of the big problems in monetary systems that bitcoin solves. Such hypocritical bullshit spews out of bitcoin zealots mouth.. Let me dumb it down for you.. bitcoin's networks is a good old boys network now. That is what this thread is about. Everyone can not participate or compete. So who are the lucky people who will receive your coins? Am I going to get some? Or am I suposed to buy them from your friends? I gave and sold off all my coins 10 months ago. I am not in it for personal gain and no longer support bitcoin or the scarcity model for currency. I meant the coins in the system you outlined. My concern with any system that issues coins is that the issuer has total control over that process. They can issue them or not issue them to whom ever they like. The fact that bitcoin solves the problem of distributing coins by rewarding anyone willing to strengthen the network is brilliant. I just don't trust a system that requires people I don't know to do the right thing, especially when there is an incentive to do the wrong thing. Nobody decides who I can buy bitcoins from. Nor can anyone tell another peer that they can't try for a block reward. Who decides in an issued coin system? Under the proposed system anyone with the ability to produce something of value to other people could issue their own coins. If you can back a coin you can issue a coin people can choose if they want to accept it or not. If you dont have credibility people are unlikely to take your credit. watch this.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyWfUqEyIZc There is a full proposal outlined here http://www.moneyasdebt.net/ ,the system I am talking about was not developed by me but Paul grignon. I am just a rabid supporter of it. quote by E.C. Riegel "There is a treasure buried in your consciousness. If you will dig it up from the debris of superstition and fear that covers it you will gain a freedom and self-mastery that will lift your life to a higher plane. This is the money power in you. The power to create money with which to purchase wealth, health and happiness actually lies dormant within you. You have thought of the money power as something remote from you and beyond your grasp. You have dreamed of the good you could and would do if you had money power. You have blamed others for not accomplishing this good. You have blamed them for evil economic and political conditions; for unemployment, for poverty, for crime, for war. It is quite logical to blame these maladies upon the malfunction of the money power, but you have not suspected that the money power resides in you and because of your failure to exert it the world is afflicted with miseries. You have the power; you have the responsibility. The power and responsibility to banish poverty, unemployment, insecurity, misery and war rests entirely with you. You, in cooperation with other intelligent persons, can drive economic and political evils further and further from the area of your life and ultimately they may be driven from the face of the earth. You can do this by the money power in you, expressed first in your own prosperity and happiness, and radiating to others. You can do it and you must do it. There is no power outside of you that can bring these blessings to you. Petitioning the Government is like writing to Santa Claus. You need no laws — there is a law, a natural law that governs your money power. You need no government aid. You need only cooperation with and from persons who, like you, have resolved to exert the money power inherent in us all. This power in each of us needs only the recognition and respect of our fellows to spring forth and exert its blessings. We need not petition Congress and we need not waste time to denounce bankers, for they can neither help nor hinder our natural right to extend credit to each other, and this is the perfect basis for a money system." |
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This assume the person on the other end wants a fucking bitcoin.
Yeah, it does assume the person on the other end wants to be free. If they want to be a wage slave, they are obviously going to have to deal with capital controls. Freedom isn't easy and it isn't going to get any easier. You seem to want the "final" solution now. Well... it doesn't exist. We can only hope to work towards it. The scarcity model always enslaves the masses. Two Kinds of Money 1.The Scarcity Model: A single uniform quantity in limited supply made valuable by its own scarcity. In other words, the value of this type of money depends on the supply of, and demand for, the money commodity itself. Conventional definitions of money define money only in terms of this model, a "medium of exchange". Examples are: cowries, gold and silver, fiat cash and coins, bank credit, and now, in the model's purest and most spectacularly speculative form, Bitcoin. 2. The Abundance Model. A promise of something specific from someone specific made valuable by its redemption in real production. The value of this type of money is defined by the promised redemption in goods and/or services. As such, this type of money is promises of an indefinite number of non-uniform commodities in indefinite supply and, unlike the limited quantity "coin" concept of money, the total quantity of these credits in circulation does not affect their value, because the value of a credit is defined by what its issuer will redeem it for in real goods and/or services. Examples are: business-to-business barter credits, customer rewards, travel points, discount coupons, mutual credit systems. |
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You dont invest in money you trade in money you invest in value. Real value.
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It doesn't have the potential to evade capital controls, it renders them obsolete right now.
How can you back up what you said? I can send bitcoins to anyone with a public Bitcoin address, right now, without asking for help from a middleman or permission from an authority. Anyone who can connect to the internet can download a client and obtain a Bitcoin address to receive bitcoins without asking for help from a middleman or permission from an authority. Stupid shit thats how, nonsense. This assume the person on the other end wants a fucking bitcoin. Retards think people are gonna eat a bitcoin, live under a bitcoin, heat themselves with a bitcoin, pay taxes with a bitcoin. Bitcoin can't stop capital controls because it requires national fiat to operate. The government will simply go to the point of centralization and demand its cut and maybe accountability. |
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This is how bitcoin slowly dies from here. What started as a chance for everyone to generate their own bitcoins and participate in the economy now turns to a few data centers producing bitcoins thus forcing new users to purchase new bitcoins from them. We've traded fiat currency controlled by a few central banks to bitcoin controlled by a few data centers.
Meet the new 1%. Slightly different to the old 1%, but they're still there.
If this turns into a giant downhill snowball effect & miners decide to cut losses btc will be finished... Maybe with a new all time low  I've been saying this on the forums for a while. These are the idiots that need to be driven out for bitcoin to rise again. Until then, we will continue to go down. Any time we drop, more will have to exit to cut their losses, and the more exit, the more bitcoin value will drop... and that's the exact snowball effect that you're talking about. I wholeheartedly agree - it's inevitable. I don't think bitcoin would be finished, but we will hit a new 'all time' low. Not early day prices, but I wouldn't be surprised if we get to $40-$50 by mid-2105. The mentality of basing mining businesses on the assumption that bitcoin prices will always rise - that mentality must die. That mentality is what keeps bitcoin from being treated as a currency, it creates an environment for encouraging scams, thefts, etc. It's kind of ironic that this is in the Speculation forum, because I personally think Speculation is what holds bitcoin back. Bitcoin is not currency its a digital collectible. It is the equivalent of a digital baseball card. A lot of people around here dont see that as a problem, but if your goal is mass adoption or price stability it's a massive problem. |
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pow or pos makes no difference. Coins cant be mined into existence. That won't work. Coins need to be issued into existence from trusted parties.
I would never put a penny into some old boy network coin. They are worthless to me. The fact that anyone can compete for coins makes senses and is fair. Issuing coins is one of the big problems in monetary systems that bitcoin solves. Such hypocritical bullshit spews out of bitcoin zealots mouth.. Let me dumb it down for you.. bitcoin's networks is a good old boys network now. That is what this thread is about. Everyone can not participate or compete. So who are the lucky people who will receive your coins? Am I going to get some? Or am I suposed to buy them from your friends? I gave and sold off all my coins 10 months ago. I am not in it for personal gain and no longer support bitcoin or the scarcity model for currency. |
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Is anyone working on a coin that is self issued! and backed by the ability to be redeemed in objective value in the form of labor or goods?
The problem with "objective value in the form of labor or goods" is that it introduces counterparty risk. You depend on somebody to back the coin and take all of the exchange risk. This is a good point. This takes away a major selling point of bitcoin (that you do not rely on any central authority to keep track of your money) That is a myth, there is no such thing as trustless transactions. Asic chip manufactures and their mega farms are the central issuing authority. |
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I am not sure this would work. If you have the ability to self issue the coin, then you have the ability to issue an unlimited amount, however the person you are trading with might not be able to tell how many of the coins have actually been issued, making it difficulty to get a good idea as to the value of such coin.
You also have the issue of redemption. If for example you issue three coins, and the owner of all three coins wants to redeem them for labor then there may not be labor available when it is needed.
I could only issue the amount of coin that I could creditably redeem. "however the person you are trading with might not be able to tell how many of the coins have actually been issued, making it difficulty to get a good idea as to the value of such coin." That information would have to be available the system would require a reputation keeper. The value of the coin is determined by what it could be redeemed for not the amount in circulation |
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hoard bitcoin and then give 0.02 bitcoin to someone, per hour they worked.  and more seriously.. many people do this, its called '100% pre-mining'. For instance 'ether' have already sold coin before its even released, ripple gave out XRP like confetti, stella is similar too.. self issuing is easy, but having a backed value that people can use for labour or goods is the hard part the end result is that unless its bitcoin, no one really trusts it as being truly valuable or transferable for labour/goods That is not self issued. That is a limited coin concept. Self issued credit has no hard limit. as its a SQL database not a blockchain, the same as a few other 'supposed' altcoins. but the thing is that most smart people know that limitless 'credit' is worth nothing, this is why so many people hate the whole FIAT debt creation system and prefer bitcoin. but if you want other examples of credit creation. MTGOX credited peoples accounts with fake bitcoins on his mtgox SQL database whilst karpeles walked away with the real bitcoins. again unless they are real bitcoins, the value means nothing"ripple is literally limitless" I can not issue my own ripples if I could I would be happily using ripple. "limitless 'credit" It would be limited by the issuers ability to redeem it so it would not be limitless it just wouldn't have a hard limit "prefer bitcoin" No one gives a shit about bitcoin no one prefers it they just use it to extract usd. The only coin that matters in the game is USDcoin "again unless they are real bitcoins, the value means nothing" Currency has no value it represents value. |
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hoard bitcoin and then give 0.02 bitcoin to someone, per hour they worked. and more seriously.. many people do this, its called '100% pre-mining'. For instance 'ether' have already sold coin before its even released, ripple gave out XRP like confetti, stella is similar too.. self issuing is easy, but having a backed value that people can use for labour or goods is the hard part the end result is that unless its bitcoin, no one really trusts it as being truly valuable or transferable for labour/goods That is not self issued. That is a limited coin concept. Self issued credit has no hard limit. |
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Is anyone working on a coin that is self issued! and backed by the ability to be redeemed in objective value in the form of labor or goods?
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