Bitcoin Forum
May 24, 2024, 11:47:33 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
  Home Help Search Login Register More  
  Show Posts
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 [20] 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 ... 168 »
381  Other / Off-topic / Re: I believe all life is evil. on: August 28, 2014, 02:59:27 PM
there evidently exist emotions like empathy and compassion as well, although you might argue those are ultimately also selfish
382  Other / Off-topic / Re: So when we going to be classed as an "extremist forum"? on: August 28, 2014, 02:13:54 PM
hmmm wouldn't wonder, this forum ought to be one of the busiest of the whole web already.
383  Other / Off-topic / Re: Any power metal fans here? on: August 28, 2014, 02:11:02 PM
metal yes, power metal no

some blind guardian perhaps, but that's it

prefer darker and/or more progressive stuff, opeth etc, and/or more alternative, post-rock/-metal stuff

384  Local / Presse / Re: SPD will über Bitcoin sprechen! on: August 28, 2014, 01:36:37 PM
die deutschen Piraten haben leider nich viel mit dem Falkvinge-Original zu tun

politisch eher sozialistisch, also recht wenig BTC-kompatibel
385  Local / Presse / Re: Presseberichte / Bedeutsame Erwähnungen on: August 28, 2014, 01:33:04 PM
die FAZ immer mit ihrem
Quote from: FAZ
/devisen-rohstoffe/
386  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin changing my ideology from socialism to libertarianism! What about you? on: August 27, 2014, 11:29:14 AM
I just watched some more of the documentary (about the Spanish revolution) and so far I'm not convinced there is any non-coercive anarcho-communism or anarcho-socialism.
I'm at the 1h mark now BTW.
They mentioned in the documentary that one of the goals of libertarian communism where that everything belongs to everyone, and therefore should be distributed fairly.
They also mentioned that decisions where taken by a general assembly where the majority decided what should be done.

These were mostly rather small communities where everyone knew everyone. From an economical point of view, you could see each community as their own horizontally organized largely self-sufficient organization producing everything they need, sharing risk and reward. If you don't like it there, you can always join another, or become an individualist (maybe an artisan or single entrepreneur).

Another funny thing they mentioned was that money was abolished except some parts where local coins where created and used.
I guess that means that you are right with bitcoin being compatible with Socialism but on the other hand it's contradicted by the fact that you cannot redistribute it. (how would you prove that someone has massive wealth in bitcoin?)  

Without a single monopolistic currency, which only a state can enforce (mainly through taxation), there may be many forms of money, local currencies, or just merely reputation systems in place, or no money at all. Each community would decide for their own what works best for them. I imagine Bitcoin would be used for internet / long distance trade.

They do mention that Individualists existed but "they had to correspond to produce" whatever that means.
I am positive they mean they where forced to give up there property/wealth for the better of the collective.

It was essentially barter. Though if many more people choose to be in collectives rather than being on their own, individualists may find themselves in a worse negotiation position. Maybe it would be different today with all available technology now, or maybe you would have to accept the fact that in a true voluntary society not all people would think the way you do, and would choose to cooperate with others rather than being on their own.

In regards to Mondragón I am for whatever works for the individuals that works there. If that 8:1 ratio works for them that's great! But what does that have to do with anything?
In anarcho-capitalism you can choose to setup a enterprise like that, there is nothing stopping you.


How about each company can organize their own internal structure in a way that suits them best? Why should there be one model for all? Do you think some outside force should dictate to companies how they should run their business? Tell them how many managers vs workers they should have?



In today's political systems, there are mostly no legal forms that would enable such an enterprise.

In an anarchistic sense, I would predict that all "companies" (or places of production) would have such a structure or similar. Why? The fact that most market-libertarians ignore is that every hierarchical (capitalistic) organization carries within it the seed for the state. As said upthread, historically, if workers felt exploited, they would go on strike, mutiny, and eventually take over the means of production. It was the state, guards, the police that eventually prevented that. That's why market-"libertarian" "heroes" like Ayn Rand and Ludwig von Mises were not anarchists, because they understood that. They essentially always proposed a Night-watchman state, which is nothing new, it didn't work then, it probably won't work now, it always lead to inequality and existential struggle of the largest part of the population, and thus was what true anarchists were against.

Anarcho-"Capitalism" is impossible! Why? Because:

Quote
Under anarchism, mass accumulation and concentration of capital is impossible.
Without concentration of capital, wage slavery is impossible.
Without wage slavery, there’s nothing most people would recognize as “capitalism”.

So isn't it more sensible even with a rather ancap mindset to favor rather horizontal structures, as they would prevent many of the mentioned issues in the first place, which would save society a lot of unnecessary collateral cost for means of protection? (note there was no police in anarchist Spain, and today the Basque Country, where Mondragón is located as the largest employer by far, has one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.)
387  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin changing my ideology from socialism to libertarianism! What about you? on: August 26, 2014, 03:00:17 PM

No disrespect but I won't be watching a 1h+ documentary on the subject. Maybe later when I have more time. I have seen a bit of footage from it before since it was posted a few pages back.
Why can't you just explain how socialism is supposed to work without coercion?
I don't get how capitalism and socialism can co exist. The little of the documentary I saw they said "they got rid of capitalism and the state..." .

And again I mean no disrespect but I think one should be able to explain a ideology or philosophy with their own words. It's so much easier to understand.


I already did upthread, but I'm gonna try tackle it from another perspective.

Don't think of "socialism" in a top-down re-distributive sense. Think from the bottom-up. Let's start on a green field. You and your friends want to build a factory. If you organize that as a horizontal co-op without a boss, you all share risk and reward. You all own part of the means of production. The value is created by each and every worker by themselves. Nothing has to be "redistributed" "coercively". You all may even have different levels of competence, experience and dedication, and decide that wages will be different according to that. But all this will happen on mutual agreements. Mondragón, the largest (afaik) industrial co-op in the world, defying all recession in Spain because of their organizational structure, are graded 8:1 (managers vs beginners) for example. Good docu about them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-obHJfTaQvw

Don't you think that is a very natural way to organize this? Is it clear how this is not coercive at all?
388  Local / Presse / Re: SPD will über Bitcoin sprechen! on: August 26, 2014, 11:19:06 AM
quatsch, die wollen höchstens den Deutschcoin! (gibt's sogar, sowas, aber sollt man nich werbung machen dafür)
389  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin changing my ideology from socialism to libertarianism! What about you? on: August 26, 2014, 09:50:06 AM
(And as I tried to explain in this thread several times already, socialism originally had nothing to do with statism.)

I believe you are referring to non-coercive socialism. And you never answered my question on what the difference would be between non-coercive socialism and private charities?
I don't see any point in calling it socialism if it's non-coercive.


No, you're still on the wrong boat.

Again, socialism means workers to be in control of the means of production. It seems many people have to unlearn a lot before they can wrap their heads around what is outside this very false dichotomy of state vs market. Watch this docu for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPl_Y3Qdb7Y

390  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Study: Everyone hates environmentalists and feminists on: August 25, 2014, 01:37:00 PM
reminds me of playground bickering between little boys and girls
391  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin changing my ideology from socialism to libertarianism! What about you? on: August 25, 2014, 10:43:41 AM
I have a theory about how the present socialism actually fosters the crony capitalism

If there is one thing that the crony capitalist would dislike is competition. They always want to monopolize..

But innovation  comes largely from middle class entrepreneurs and their children

So the crony capitalist plan a pro socialist society.

They fund media to create movies like Avatar and change people mindset and persuade the middle class into believing socialism is the best system. the middle class ends up paying a lot of taxes which totally kills their entrepreneurship attitude and instead choose a day job.

By introducing Draconian regulations in the technology industry, and in the name of ethics in biotech space, the crony capitalist rule out any chance for competition and kill innovation.

And the society at large believes they live in a system  which  appears as if government is taking care of them in the name of socialism but in reality the government is just helping the elite crony capitalist..




absolutely.  you nailed it.  This is what happens.  They also try to demonize "the rich" (actually upper middle class) while exempting the ultra rich from the same rules.



That's just one side of the story. The "ultra rich" has both a left and a right propaganda arm. The right arm is Koch brothers, Cato Institute, etc, very obviously. It's Machiavelli 101, and it's age-old. Nothing astonishing really. Only sad that still so many people (on both sides) fall for it.

The real issue is not socialism or capitalism, it is authoritarianism. It can be designed to look more capitalistic or more socialist, it doesn't matter.

(And as I tried to explain in this thread several times already, socialism originally had nothing to do with statism.)

392  Local / Off-Topic (Deutsch) / Re: UBER in Berlin verboten on: August 25, 2014, 10:34:12 AM
yup, hatt ich auch schon die idee

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2do5wu/uber_airbnb_and_others_may_soon_accept_bitcoin/cjriwud

PS: Only in Germany kommen sie überhaupt darauf, sowas zu verbieten.
393  Economy / Speculation / Re: When will bitcoin hit 252,000 USD? on: August 24, 2014, 12:33:16 PM
why that odd number?

18 bits (2^18) is 262,144  Smiley
394  Local / Altcoins (Deutsch) / Re: Hallo was denkt ihr von altcoins ;) on: August 22, 2014, 01:23:29 PM
nur als casino, wenn du zocken willst.

wegen dem netzwerkeffekt wird es auf lange sicht nur eine dominante krypto-währung geben.

alle anderen coins haben lediglich spekulativen wert (könnte ja mal was mit bitcoin passieren...) und werden lediglich einen schatten zum kurs der dominanten krypto-währung bilden.

zwecks features, wenn wirklich mal ein gutes daherkommt, dann kann und wird das auch in die dominante krypto-währung übernommen werden.

(was bei vielen altcoins als großes feature vermarktet wird, ist oftmals nur heiße luft und nicht zu ende gedacht, bes. sog. "asic-resistenz" ist lächerlich und, wenn man mal ganz scharf nachdenkt, auch gar nicht wünschenswert.)

außerdem wird man mit neuen features bald auch mit sog. bitcoin-sidechains und -sidetrees experimentieren können.

das einzige(!), was meiner meinung nach bitcoin ablösen könnte, wär ein komplett neuer ansatz, etwa ein komplett p2p-basierendes internet wie maidsafe, das auch einen integrierten coin haben wird. da dies ohne eine blockchain und ohne proof-of-work/mining auskommen würde, würde es wunderbar skalieren und gute privatsphäre/anonymität (echtes e-cash) ermöglichen. allerdings ist maidsafe noch nicht wirklich peer-reviewed, und es wurden noch nicht alle möglichen attacken durchdacht und ausgeschlossen.
395  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: bitcoin changing my ideology from socialism to libertarianism! What about you? on: August 22, 2014, 01:05:57 PM
to take money from one person and give it to another.

That's not what socialism is or means.

right, "Socialism" does not mean what most US-Americans think and how they use that word all the time. The term "Socialism" originally meant workers to be in control of the means of production, i.e. co-ops instead of bosses. It doesn't say anything about a (welfare) state.

Bitcoin is perfectly compatible with that kind of socialism.

It's also a more natural form of self-organization in a truly anarchistic society. Historically, if workers felt exploited by their capitalist bosses, they went on strike, mutiny, and eventually took over the factory, i.e. the means of production. Only the old establishment's countermeasures prevented that from happening further, i.e. through guards, police, etc. (That's why both von Mises and Rand were not anarchists, and were convinced that a minimal state is necessary, s. Night-watchman state.)

Reality unfortunately is not like Ayn Rand's Freudian ramblings. The first, old capitalists were not "heroes", they did not "work hard" to build the factory, they were merely privileged by being in the same gentlemen's clubs as the old aristocracy and political leaders. http://exiledonline.com/recovered-economic-history-everyone-but-an-idiot-knows-that-the-lower-classes-must-be-kept-poor-or-they-will-never-be-industrious/


396  Local / Presse / Re: Presseberichte / Bedeutsame Erwähnungen on: August 22, 2014, 12:18:30 PM
https://netzpolitik.org/2014/der-kopf-hinter-bitcoin-gavin-andresen/
397  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Are girls using Bitcoins? on: August 22, 2014, 10:16:20 AM
Does anyone know if Blacks use Bitcoin???


no, they use Blackcoin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl6DizyZgFY

398  Other / Off-topic / Re: ALSA IceBucketChallenge (Ice Bucket Challenge) I challenge ALL OF YOU! on: August 21, 2014, 01:56:59 PM
Shocked

Because Ice Bucket Challenge: Global ice reservoirs nearly exhausted



https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.der-postillon.com%2F2014%2F08%2Fwegen-ice-bucket-challenge-weltweite.html&edit-text=&act=url
399  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: What coin will surpass bitcoin? on: August 21, 2014, 01:46:27 PM
something like MaidSafe (an encrypted P2P internet) may make Bitcoin obsolete, as it has an integrated coin that doesn't require mining/proof-of-work or even a blockchain, thus it will scale well and offer a lot more privacy (i.e. a true e-cash).
400  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin at the Pump, ideas on: August 20, 2014, 03:57:06 PM
this can give rise to a new business model: a chain of unmanned gas stations.

Most probable name of a brand: Pump N' Dump of course.  Cool
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 [20] 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 ... 168 »
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!