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13461  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: AntMiner S2 1TH/s Miner (1w/GH/s) on: March 15, 2014, 11:00:21 PM
I'm pretty sure it is also undervolted so you won't be able to overclock that much (possibly some).

13462  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Which Pool ??? on: March 15, 2014, 09:53:11 PM
Yeah, also another reason why p2pool nodes need more love. 33% is very close to 50%
Ok, I don't want to be a chump (did that with Catcoin) but I wouldn't mind throwing a few hundred gh somewhere. What's a good solid reliable p2p node I can point some stuff at while I sit down and compile the software on my NeXTStation Turbo?

I'll let others suggest nodes, but I will say you need more than a few days to evaluate p2pool. It is a small pool (about 0.5% of the whole network last I checked) so it only gets a block every day or two. To give it a fair eval you should be willing to wait a few weeks at least. This isn't really any different from other small pools if you have a few hundred GH. If you want to help decentralize things and not run on a huge pool that finds blocks every hour you have to be willing to accept more variance on found blocks.



13463  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: Which Pool ??? on: March 15, 2014, 07:42:36 PM
lightfoot, the problem of withholding blocks is that if someone else finds a block before you submit it to the network, yours can get orphaned and then you are left with nothing. Risking 25 BTC to try and get a 'head start' on another block wouldn't seem to make sense. And it's all random anyway, partial work means nothing. Your odds of finding a 2nd block are the same whether you report the prior block or hold on to it. I think all you do is hurt yourself.

It's called selfish mining and some guys from Cornell (I think) did a paper on it. You can come out ahead if you are 33% of the network.

13464  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [6600Th] Eligius: 0% Fee BTC, 105% PPS NMC, No registration, CPPSRB (New Thread) on: March 15, 2014, 07:37:49 PM
It is my understanding that if you leave this pool eventually you will still get your 3% or whatever shelved shares.

You may get the 3%. You are still eligible for payouts but whether old shares get paid out depends on luck.The older they are the more luck would be required to ever pay them (and therefore the less likely they are to get paid).

BTW, luck has been somewhat poor recently which is why you are seeing 97% payouts (sometimes less). I've seen 99%+ at times in the past.

The head start effect is real but the value is very small. It would only matter if you solve another block very quickly (within a few seconds). Most of the time it doesn't matter.

13465  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [6600Th] Eligius: 0% Fee BTC, 105% PPS NMC, No registration, CPPSRB (New Thread) on: March 14, 2014, 11:43:38 PM
Don't worry smooth,I have moved on  Tongue

It's not personal for me, I have no stake in this pool other than using it a little. (I mostly use p2pool.)  

I just think people should be realistic about it. Isn't it a month or so of these frequent stats problems, failsafe mode, delayed payouts, etc.? Nothing bad has come of it ultimately (all delayed payments were made as far as I know), but the practical reality is this pool can't be relied upon for smooth steady payments, and it won't be reasonable to rely on those until some period of operating that way has been demonstrated. It has other advantages still (which is why I use it).
13466  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [6600Th] Eligius: 0% Fee BTC, 105% PPS NMC, No registration, CPPSRB (New Thread) on: March 14, 2014, 09:05:00 PM
Stats are down again...  I was just about to get a pay out (after a 12 block delay) and now it looks like it will be delayed further.  Any chance of a manual payout to get everything caught up?  It seems like as soon as it's almost caught up, something happens and it gets delayed.  I haven't had a payout for four days and I usually get at least one per day. 

Thanks.

To be realistic about it, these problems are a regular occurrence now and if you aren't prepared to just wait it out, it is probably best to move on to a different pool. The constant whining every time it happens (not saying its you every time, I don't know, it might be different people) is not going to help.

13467  Economy / Securities / Re: [NastyFans.org] NASTY MINING | NASTY POOL on: March 14, 2014, 08:48:30 PM
There are now 18 Monarchs listed on post #1. Did we order more or is that some kind of late ship compensation?
13468  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: I dont pay for power. What type of rig would you build? on: March 14, 2014, 07:15:02 PM
Suppose you have a 75 watt panel and you use up 62 amps of it for mining that is 7500watts. At .1 kw/h your landlord would get a $750 electrical bill and probably kill you. Realistically on a 15 amp breaker you can run 1700watts +-. That gives you plenty of room to mix and match asic rigs.

I wouldn't go crazy as it is better not to get the landlord after you and you could still make some great profits.

Not necessarily. In some older buildings there aren't even individual meters for each unit, so the landlord has no idea of anything other than the bill for the whole building (which will likely be much more than $750). I have no idea if that is the case for OP.
13469  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [185 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool on: March 14, 2014, 06:21:53 PM
p2pool may be a poor choice for small miners anyway, because the payouts they do end up receiving will be in many tiny chunks which will end up costing them more to spend than a single payout from a normal pool.

This is a good point. Maybe it should be possible to store deferred payouts in the share chain up to some minimum and apply them to a future block, the way eligius does. There is definitely value in coinbase payouts and the pool not having a wallet (though in practice eligius does have a wallet) while at the same time not paying out a tiny slice of every single block to every single miner.

I don't know if this can be made hop proof though.
13470  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [185 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool on: March 14, 2014, 06:08:14 PM
A person that has one bitcoin that loses one bitcoin proportionally loses much more than a person that has a thousand bitcoins and also loses one bitcoin. In absolute terms, however, they've lost the same amount. I doubt either of them will be thinking of the loss in absolute terms.

Yes, I agree. Risk relative to assets does matter.

But there is no direct relationship between your hash rate and your assets, so risk relative to hash rate does not necessarily matter. Where I already said I agree is that someone who is poor (you said poor country but the wealth of the individual matters more) should be more concerned about smaller risks.

In other words, if you want to manage risk in "relative" terms, the correct denominator to use is assets, not hash rate. What this means in practice for hobby miners is they need not be overly concerned about variance.
13471  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [185 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool on: March 14, 2014, 06:05:00 AM
Yes, we've covered that before, but there's no point in considering "absolute terms". Few people consider anything related to BTC in "absolute terms". In fact I can't think of many situations in which there are useful BTC related charts which are not log-linear.

Bitcoin in absolute terms are what you spend (or save). In fact the number you are quoting, standard deviation divided by mean, has no units at all. It's a number that doesn't exist in the real world, only on graphs.
13472  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [185 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool on: March 14, 2014, 05:13:16 AM
In case you are, or in case there are other readers as confused as I, you can think about it like this: the number of p2Pool shares a miner submits per time period is an approximately Poisson distributed random number. This means that the standard deviation of this number is proportional to the square root of the mean. As the share submission rate increases, the standard deviation only increases as the square root of the mean, so a miner with a greater share submission rates has, proportionally, a much lower standard deviation.

The key word you are using there, which contributes much to the confusion, is proportionately. In fact the standard deviation, measured in units of dollars, btc, or anything else is higher for the larger miner. It grows more slowly than the mean, but it still grows. A small miner has a small standard deviation in absolute terms.

13473  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [185 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool on: March 14, 2014, 04:26:40 AM
Yes it is added variance. This is accepted in understood by the participants in my case. In practice the payouts seem to be fairly close (it is shares that are being split probabilistically and over the payment window the number of shares is fairly large). As you said it reduces the changes of wallets being compromised and other problems.

Were you the one I chatted with about it on #p2pool? It's been long enough I don't recall who it was now. Smiley

No not me. I'm only splitting two ways so the fee function works for that. I did consider at one point that if I needed to split more ways I would find the fee function (random split) in the code and modify it, but I haven't needed it yet.
13474  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [185 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool on: March 14, 2014, 04:23:06 AM
Yes that is the question. I'm not sure you can flat out dismiss "technical" concerns. Maybe things like graphs and so forth are important. There may be other feature issues. For example, I know a few people have mentioned automatic splitting of payouts for farms with investors and group buys as being an attractive feature of ghash.io. I'm personally using the fee function in p2pool for that, but that only gives a two-way split. Marketing and awareness are also important of course.

I chatted with someone on #p2pool once who did a probabilistic payout model. That's more random for the people you are paying than if you collect the coins yourself and then pay them evenly. But of course that does open yourself up to wallet theft, etc. I'm a big fan of paying directly to people and not holding coins whenever possible.

Yes it is added variance. This is accepted in understood by the participants in my case. In practice the payouts seem to be fairly close (it is shares that are being split probabilistically and over the payment window the number of shares is fairly large). As you said it reduces the changes of wallets being compromised and other problems.

I don't really agree that "you could code it yourself" is a good answer to a missing function that could attract more miners. I obviously don't know how many miners this particular function would attract.


13475  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [185 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool on: March 14, 2014, 04:09:10 AM
p2pool already works well with large miners. Cointerra's products work wonderfully with it. It isn't a technical challenge, it's a marketing/advertising/perception one.

Yes that is the question. I'm not sure you can flat out dismiss "technical" concerns. Maybe things like graphs and so forth are important. There may be other feature issues. For example, I know a few people have mentioned automatic splitting of payouts for farms with investors and group buys as being an attractive feature of ghash.io. I'm personally using the fee function in p2pool for that, but that only gives a two-way split, and it means I can't really open up my node for public use, which I might otherwise do. (There are no public nodes in my geographic area as far as I can tell.) Marketing and awareness are also important of course.

13476  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [185 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool on: March 14, 2014, 03:59:40 AM
To be clear: I am not arguing that p2Pool should be made more minable by smaller miners. I am explaining to you how CDFs vary significantly for different hashrates. Someone with a large hashrate might see a +/- 1% variation in earnings per week. Someone with a small hashrate might see earnings change to 0.01% or 1000% of the previous week's earnings. I think you're not understanding how significant that is.

It's significant only insofar as people make it out to be significant. If a hobby miner's earnings vary from $10 to $0, that might well be less significant than a larger scale miner whose earnings drop from $5000 to $4000 but who spent many thousands of dollars on mining gear and has an electricity bill of hundreds or thousands of dollars per month. A $10 shortfall is a $10 shortfall, and can't ever make more than a $10 difference. You can't change that at putting some scary percentage number on it.

In any case, as I suggested earlier, the focus on very small miners is misguided. What p2pool needs is more large miners. Adding a few thousand 5 GH miners won't make any real difference. Getting KnC or whoever that was to mine their 1000 TH on p2pool instead of eligius changes the whole picture.




13477  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [185 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool on: March 14, 2014, 03:53:32 AM
BTW it's kinda a bummer the max share chain is only 3 days. The SPREAD is 3 blocks worth of work, so that would normally mean any share someone finds should get one or more payouts. Is the reason we have a max share chain length at all to prevent abuse? I'd think the share chain should expand as much as needed automatically to store SPREAD worth of payouts...

If you pay shares on every single block you have proportional payout (subject to pool hopping abuse), not PPLNS.


I think you didn't understand my point. If the window (N) for PPLNS is large enough then shares should get paid on every block as well. That doesn't make it the proportional. The problem right now is the share window is shorter than the time to find a block, so some shares don't get any payments at all, in spite of SPREAD being set to 3. (That is, the payment window is 3 * difficulty.) As I understand it, the share chain length overrides the spread, so the payment window will fluctuate based on however much work fits in the share chain instead of the most recent N.

There is no length that is necessarily guaranteed to be long enough. If you are saying to extend the chain until blocks are found, that is exactly what proportional payout does.

If you are just suggesting to extend the chain to some other fixed length like 7 days or 30 days or something else, that is another story, with its own tradeoffs. For example, even people with large hash rates will see very small payouts for a long time when first starting.

Even 7 days probably won't be long enough soon.
13478  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [185 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool on: March 14, 2014, 03:51:14 AM
I have no opinion on the matter. Giving it some thought though, I think if you have such a low hashrate that you can't be sure you have optimal settings for your miner, then you may need to mine at a larger pool just to see if your optimisations have worked.

If you are mining on a public node, you can measure how well you have "optimized" your miner using the pseudo-shares (reported by your miner) and the overall efficiency of the public node. There is no real difference between pseudo-shares and real shares from the point of view of an external miner using a public node (other than a difficulty of course).

If you are trying to optimize your own p2pool node with a tiny hash rate, you are certainly not doing it to maximize return on investment, because you can't possibly justify the cost a p2pool node (and full bitcoin node) for a tiny hash rate on an objective basis.

13479  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [185 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool on: March 14, 2014, 02:42:26 AM
Oh, but you're forgetting... There is some way to flip a switch. Not quite tomorrow, but hopefully soon enough....

A development project in progress is not "flipping a switch."


Eventually, as a result of development, there will be a switch to flip.

Thank you for your efforts. One question I would ask is what work is being done to make p2pool more attractive to large miners. That is the real solution here. More blocks helps everyone.

13480  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [185 TH] p2pool: Decentralized, DoS-resistant, Hop-Proof pool on: March 14, 2014, 02:37:46 AM
Oh, but you're forgetting... There is some way to flip a switch. Not quite tomorrow, but hopefully soon enough....

A development project in progress is not "flipping a switch."
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